'red October'- Red Shirts Plan Major Rallies

[bubba]

I think people will be surprised how much support there is and will be from the north and eastern provinces for the red shirts. From what i can gather speaking to people from there, despite all the Bad aspects of Taksins [sic] time in office, we all know these stories, he made substantial diffrencess to the standard of living of many people in these provinces. There were road projects building projects etc all fueling the increase of there standard of living. Many now feel under the present regime that they are going backwards. Lets face it the yellow shirts bassically wanted to reteurn to the old ways with a plentifull supply of cheal labour so they can become even welthier thats why there power is In Bangkok. Sorry but fractured as there policy is and i dont want Taksin [sic] back either i think the reds are the ones in the right here most of them want what we all do the right for a good statndard of living.

And it is indeed amazing that farmers in the north and northeast subscribe to the Thaksin personality cult. And from the statement above, amazingly even some foreigners have bought it as well. After all, it was Thaksin who pushed through and signed a free trade agreement in 2003 that allowed nearly all Chinese agricultural exports immediate, unrestricted, and tax free entry into Thailand. That probably did more than anything else to create a cheap supply of labour by way of bankrupted small farmers who couldn't compete with the cheap, chemical laden Chinese agricultural imports. Land went fallow, garlic was dumped by the side of the road, and farmers went into debt. Of course, wealthy Thai-Chinese importers such as CP were very pleased.

That was Thaksin's FTA in 2003. The red shorts claim to want "change" by bringing the Thaksin empire back? What sort of change is that? And the northern and northeastern farmers still see Thaksin as some sort of idealistic saviour? I still keep thinking of the comparison to Mao Zedung and his personality cult which seemed to become even more powerful and mystical following his great leap forward and cultural revolution, both of which were responsible for both poverty as well as the deaths of tens of millions of people.

Edited October 4, 2009 by bubba

[EffectiveAnger]

..How about giving them the right to vote, just for starters. The current administration was not elected by the people. That seems to be a key point the red shirts are making....

That doesn't make any sense - all MPs are elected by the people. The election of Abhisit was televised to the whole country, and every MP, elected by the people, had cast his or her vote.

And if reds want the administration to be elected by the people directly and not via their representative in parliament, why do they want …

It’s interesting that you say that because I can vaguely recall when the PAD was making a similar stance (as the reds are today) at the time of Somchai’s election and subsequent appointment. The PAD was complaining that the MPs who elected him were all corrupt. Now, the red shirts are complaining of the same thing. How do we know for sure that there was no corruption involved in the current PM’s election? Wouldn’t this be a real radical change in Thailand’s political history if he were?

[livinthailandos]

what the reds are out again, talk of thaksin again, I'd just say it to be fair, red or yellow neither side is going to get what they want. Thailands political theatre is really quite boring now.

1. The longer thaksin isn't here the better

2. Due to majority of thaksin funds being frozen & UDD leaders taking money and stuffing it down there pants. I say its turning into a much wasted effort.

3. I have no problem with peaceful protestings. But PAD & UDD both have shown neither one can live up to their word of a peaceful demonstration. For me i always just say expect them to get violent period.

4. Due to thailand's infancy in the whole so called democratic society + corruption, I don't think I'll live to see the day when thailand can actually be a real democratic society.

5. The real question later on will be who's the next thaksin wanna be to come along??

[justanothercybertosser]

And it is indeed amazing that farmers in the north and northeast subscribe to the Thaksin personality cult. And from the statement above, amazingly even some foreigners have bought it as well. After all, it was Thaksin who pushed through and signed a free trade agreement in 2003 that allowed nearly all Chinese agricultural exports immediate, unrestricted, and tax free entry into Thailand. That probably did more than anything else to create a cheap supply of labour by way of bankrupted small farmers who couldn't compete with the cheap, chemical laden Chinese agricultural imports. Land went fallow, garlic was dumped by the side of the road, and farmers went into debt. Of course, wealthy Thai-Chinese importers such as CP were very pleased.

That was Thaksin's FTA in 2003. The red shorts claim to want "change" by bringing the Thaksin empire back? What sort of change is that? And the northern and northeastern farmers still see Thaksin as some sort of idealistic saviour? I still keep thinking of the comparison to Mao Zedung and his personality cult which seemed to become even more powerful and mystical following his great leap forward and cultural revolution, both of which were responsible for both poverty as well as the deaths of tens of millions of people.

Yes. But still farmers had more money in their pockets, more income during Thaksin's time than ever before, and after. Drugs have almost disappeared from rural communities (now back again). This has very little to do with personality cult. There were better prices for their products, better possibilities to borrow to finance crops, better and more effective controls over local corruption (a topic that rarely makes it into national headlines or especially the available English language rags).

This doesn't say that much for Thaksin, it shows more how miserable the alternatives were/are. And that is what drives Red Shirt support far more than just Thaksin. Just imagine for one moment that farmers are not just the gullible monkeys sentiments such as yours try to portray them, but humans with a the ability to understand what surrounds them in their environment, which though is not much reported about, for obvious reasons.

[justanothercybertosser]

..How about giving them the right to vote, just for starters. The current administration was not elected by the people. That seems to be a key point the red shirts are making....

That doesn't make any sense - all MPs are elected by the people. The election of Abhisit was televised to the whole country, and every MP, elected by the people, had cast his or her vote.

And if reds want the administration to be elected by the people directly and not via their representative in parliament, why do they want …

It's interesting that you say that because I can vaguely recall when the PAD was making a similar stance (as the reds are today) at the time of Somchai's election and subsequent appointment. The PAD was complaining that the MPs who elected him were all corrupt. Now, the red shirts are complaining of the same thing. How do we know for sure that there was no corruption involved in the current PM's election? Wouldn't this be a real radical change in Thailand's political history if he were?

We know that not just corruption was involved, but considerable pressure by the military.

[EffectiveAnger]

..How about giving them the right to vote, just for starters. The current administration was not elected by the people. That seems to be a key point the red shirts are making....

That doesn't make any sense - all MPs are elected by the people. The election of Abhisit was televised to the whole country, and every MP, elected by the people, had cast his or her vote.

And if reds want the administration to be elected by the people directly and not via their representative in parliament, why do they want …

It's interesting that you say that because I can vaguely recall when the PAD was making a similar stance (as the reds are today) at the time of Somchai's election and subsequent appointment. The PAD was complaining that the MPs who elected him were all corrupt. Now, the red shirts are complaining of the same thing. How do we know for sure that there was no corruption involved in the current PM's election? Wouldn't this be a real radical change in Thailand's political history if he were?

We know that not just corruption was involved, but considerable pressure by the military.

Not to mention the pressure (if we can call it that) from the PAD.

Of course, we have to also give some credit to the powerful entities of the phuyai, court justices and many others who shall remain nameless.

[Scott]

The sooner the gov't has elections, the better. The red shirts are no doubt turning more into a personality cult and this is a dangerous move because the sins get further away and the nostalgia intensifies. The problem is that the current gov't will likely lose, but if they care about the country, they will let that happen.

The easiest way to replace Thaksin is to let the power change. His present cronies, when they have a chance at power are going to be a lot less loyal to him than they are now.

The electoral and democratic process is the only way forward that will work. Painful in the short term, but beneficial in the long term.

[justanothercybertosser]

The red shirts are no doubt turning more into a personality cult

I have to disagree there in this point. Besides the images shown at rallies, and Thaksin phone-ins and whatever else, in their publications is also an enormous amount of wide ranging political discussion and debate going on.

At this point, as welcome as elections would be, i fear they will not make much of a difference. One of the reasons is that there will be much the same sort of extra-constitutional interference in case PT would win as we had last year (people have definitely not yet learned that playing by the rules is in the long run safer). Another reason is that as PT right now looks with all the bans, it is not a party that can possibly govern Thailand.

I fear that we have reached and crossed the point of no return - Thailand will change, for the better or worse, not through parliamentary politics.

Edited October 4, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Plus]

Reds are not calling for elections now, are they? They want return of 97 constitution first.

[Plus]

there will be much the same sort of extra-constitutional interference in case PT would win as we had last year

Why not two years ago?

Remember when PPP leaders spent a month shuttling between Bangkok and Thaksin in Hong Kong, trying to cobble up a coalition, clipping their own electoral platform trading ministerial positions in exchange for support from reluctant partners.

What part of that was constitutional?

[justanothercybertosser]

there will be much the same sort of extra-constitutional interference in case PT would win as we had last year

Why not two years ago?

Remember when PPP leaders spent a month shuttling between Bangkok and Thaksin in Hong Kong, trying to cobble up a coalition, clipping their own electoral platform trading ministerial positions in exchange for support from reluctant partners.

What part of that was constitutional?

...or three years ago, when we had a military coup - a major feckup of which consequences we still suffer...

[justanothercybertosser]

In less than a day you've gone from red to brown.

If you do not wish me spreading my charm here, i would suggest to leave such suggestions out of the debate.

I am not amused.

[Scott]

Let's keep it civil. One post deleted after a veiled reference to Nazis.

[Publicus]

If you do not wish me spreading my charm here, i would suggest to leave such suggestions out of the debate.

I am not amused.

Okay, any particular sensitivies that might exist and be unknown to me would be understood and appreciated.

As to the central point I once again restate my original point-- why have you tossed your election now pom poms to spin around and say new elections don't matter? Suddenly now you're dismissing the centrality of elections. The radical change to contradict your long held advocacy of new elections does jump off the screen at me.

[justanothercybertosser]

Okay, any particular sensitivies that might exist and be unknown to me would be understood and appreciated.

As to the central point I once again restate my original point-- why have you tossed your election now pom poms to spin around and say new elections don't matter? Suddenly now you're dismissing the centrality of elections. The radical change to contradict your long held advocacy of new elections does jump off the screen at me.

You know what the color brown stands for in political context...

Anyhow, accuse me of being a leftie liberal sort, and i have no defense against that.

Anyhow.

I am not glad about saying that elections now most likely won't work anymore to bring order into the mess. I would very much prefer if the political mess is solved in parliament instead of in the streets and in the backrooms.

Look at it - TRT/PPP/PPT most able politicians have been banned, and now even the odious dinosaur Chavalit has been brought back, most likely because of his extensive military network as a counter to the Blue faction. Democrat party is more factionalized every day (look at the mess over the new police chief, the Nipond saga, trips to Germany, etc.).

What ever elections may come, without substantial amnesties for all they will hardly make a dent in the street politics or in the increased military influence in politics. And amnesties will hardly come.

If PPT wins elections, PAD will up at the barricades, and the Red Shirts will fight them. If Democrats win without the unbanning of TRT/PPP politicians, the Red Shirts will not stop. One day sooner or later we will see the military getting fed up of all the divisions in society and decide to solve it by staging another coup, and then the shit will hit the fan. Then maybe even Red and yellow might decide to bury their hatchet, and go together against the coup makers.

Just watch it...

Edited October 4, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Publicus]

Okay, any particular sensitivies that might exist and be unknown to me would be understood and appreciated.

As to the central point I once again restate my original point-- why have you tossed your election now pom poms to spin around and say new elections don't matter? Suddenly now you're dismissing the centrality of elections. The radical change to contradict your long held advocacy of new elections does jump off the screen at me.

You know what the color brown stands for in political context...

Anyhow, accuse me of being a leftie liberal sort, and i have no defense against that.

Anyhow.

I am not glad about saying that elections now most likely won't work anymore to bring order into the mess. I would very much prefer if the political mess is solved in parliament instead of in the streets and in the backrooms.

Look at it - TRT/PPP/PPT most able politicians have been banned, and now even the odious dinosaur Chavalit has been brought back, most likely because of his extensive military network as a counter to the Blue faction. Democrat party is more factionalized every day (look at the mess over the new police chief, the Nipond saga, trips to Germany, etc.).

What ever elections may come, without substantial amnesties for all they will hardly make a dent in the street politics or in the increased military influence in politics. And amnesties will hardly come.

If PPT wins elections, PAD will up at the barricades, and the Red Shirts will fight them. If Democrats win without the unbanning of TRT/PPP politicians, the Red Shirts will not stop. One day sooner or later we will see the military getting fed up of all the divisions in society and decide to solve it by staging another coup, and then the shit will hit the fan. Then maybe even Red and yellow might decide to bury their hatchet, and go together against the coup makers.

Just watch it...

Your overall charm is a gift that a fellow traveller leftie politico can appreciate.

That sincerely said...

...So now you would have conditionial elections containing caveats that favor the banned alphabet soup of the TRT/PPP/PT worst violators of the integrity (as it may exist) of the Thai electoral processes. You're a piece of work!

You want to grant some sort of amnesty to the most electorally corrupt politicians in the country, those convicted of outragous electoral crimes by the courts so that like the alcoholic they can be escorted into the most well stocked tavern on an open tab.

Moreover, for months now you have been holding in your hand veiled in velvet this vital caveat which if imprudently granted would assure the absolute corruption of the next election the PM refers to. The electoral track record of the poison alphabet soup of politicians you would set loose on the next election, as vital as it will be to Thailand, is proof of their incorrigibilty and unrepentance just as are their shameless behaviours during their period of being banned in openly flaunted their exclusion by law from politics.

At least now we know what elections you've been advocating during the past several months. Your "elections now" mantra has been a veneer to get an election and then to open the electoral process to be further raped by the worst political mafia Thailand has ever seen or produced.

It's more than reasonable to ask what further surprises to expect from your various and glib advocacies of qualities such as democracy, justice, equity and other high sounding claims.

[justanothercybertosser]

That sincerely said...

Ridiculous polemics.

Boring, intellectually not exactly stimulating.

[Publicus]

That sincerely said...

Ridiculous polemics.

Boring, intellectually not exactly stimulating.

But irrefutable and hard hitting truth.

That's a long nose you look down at us from. I see why you're in Thailand as it's nearly impossible for it to frost over.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Publicus

[justanothercybertosser]

But irrefutable and hard hitting truth.

Simplistic polemics straight from a PAD stage script.

I suggest you to educate yourself and read a few studies and books on the subject matter.

[cdnvic]

Discuss the subject at hand please, not each other's education.

[Publicus]

Okay, any particular sensitivies that might exist and be unknown to me would be understood and appreciated.

As to the central point I once again restate my original point-- why have you tossed your election now pom poms to spin around and say new elections don't matter? Suddenly now you're dismissing the centrality of elections. The radical change to contradict your long held advocacy of new elections does jump off the screen at me.

You know what the color brown stands for in political context...

Anyhow, accuse me of being a leftie liberal sort, and i have no defense against that.

Anyhow.

I am not glad about saying that elections now most likely won't work anymore to bring order into the mess. I would very much prefer if the political mess is solved in parliament instead of in the streets and in the backrooms.

Look at it - TRT/PPP/PPT most able politicians have been banned, and now even the odious dinosaur Chavalit has been brought back, most likely because of his extensive military network as a counter to the Blue faction. Democrat party is more factionalized every day (look at the mess over the new police chief, the Nipond saga, trips to Germany, etc.).

What ever elections may come, without substantial amnesties for all they will hardly make a dent in the street politics or in the increased military influence in politics. And amnesties will hardly come.

If PPT wins elections, PAD will up at the barricades, and the Red Shirts will fight them. If Democrats win without the unbanning of TRT/PPP politicians, the Red Shirts will not stop. One day sooner or later we will see the military getting fed up of all the divisions in society and decide to solve it by staging another coup, and then the shit will hit the fan. Then maybe even Red and yellow might decide to bury their hatchet, and go together against the coup makers.

Just watch it...

That which you call political compromise others call political suicide. You've quite exposed yourself this time, advocating amnesty now for the poisoned alphabet soup of the banned slimebags of the TRT/PPP/PT so that these dogs of lawlessness can be set upon the announced upcoming election.

Your calls of the past several months for elections now have been cloaking this nefarious and pernicious scheme revealed by you today.

[Plus]

So now there's this fundamental shift in red ideology - they won't recognize the election results. Elections don't matter anymore.

Great. When will they come around and start talking New Politics?

[Valentine]

The latest plan which it seems PTP have agreed to is that the charter amendment process will go ahead meaning there will be no elections until late next year. The idea of Chavalit entering politics again is quite obnoxious considering when he was PM him & T were in cahoots allowing massive movement of THB into USD before the devaluation. He is also being held responsible for the protest fiasco last year & his army record is not good if one looks back to the Thai - Lao skirmish although there are some who feel his army connections might help. Two Cs & a T, what a desperate scenario.

Upcoming red protests will not achieve much unless there is a plan for them to turn violent which could eventually lead to civil war & this scenario is of no consequence to a megalomaniac.

Reds, yellows, blues all pretending they are fighting for the well being of the populace especially the 'have nots' when all it is really about is a power struggle between two groups of 'haves' who want to keep all the power & money in their hands. Although money is certainly a driving force I believe it is the seduction of power that truly drives them. After all they are mostly filthy rich.

The dream is for a group with a leader to emerge & become a strong force & actually work for the benefit of the people. This type has emerged in the past all over the world but, & I hope this is the correct definition of the old saying, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[bubba]

So now there's this fundamental shift in red ideology - they won't recognize the election results. Elections don't matter anymore.

Great. When will they come around and start talking New Politics?

The Reds will accept everything, once their patron (Thaksin) is back and free from standing trial. Nothing else really matters. It's Thaksin's movement.

I keep hearing this term "New Politics" bantered around by the Reds, but I am utterly confused when I try understand how New Politics are predicated on the return of an old PM (Thaksin) who hails from the Old School.

[animatic]

.... Two Cs & a T, what a desperate scenario....l

Yeah my thoughts pretty closely.

Two Zeds and a Naught....

And we think we are seeing lack of action for the people now... ooh just wait.

[Valentine]

.... Two Cs & a T, what a desperate scenario....l

Yeah my thoughts pretty closely.

Two Zeds and a Naught....

And we think we are seeing lack of action for the people now... ooh just wait.

Or a three ring circus.

[brahmburgers]

If T didn't have gobs of money, he'd be no more important than your local librarian.

As for the question "what are they protesting about?"

First some background: The lowest in the ranks are promised the equivalent of triple minimum wage to put on a red shirt (provided). They get bused to Bangkok, and are told what to do and say. They get free meals and a place to stay, and get to meet a bunch of lively folks in the process. Altogether, a much better diversion than tending to a water buffalo in some sleepy rice field in Issan.

T and Pok must have freed up a fistful of cash in order to grease the wheels of these upcoming pseudo rallies planned for October.

Back to the question "What are they protesting about?"

Answer: Whatever they're told to protest about. As long as the payments come through, it doesn't much matter. Oh, and there's the oft-mentioned promise by organizers: "As soon as Thaksin is back in power, your debts will be forgiven and you'll have lots more money."

[Insight]

If T didn't have gobs of money, he'd be no more important than your local librarian.

As for the question "what are they protesting about?"

First some background: The lowest in the ranks are promised the equivalent of triple minimum wage to put on a red shirt (provided). They get bused to Bangkok, and are told what to do and say. They get free meals and a place to stay, and get to meet a bunch of lively folks in the process. Altogether, a much better diversion than tending to a water buffalo in some sleepy rice field in Issan.

T and Pok must have freed up a fistful of cash in order to grease the wheels of these upcoming pseudo rallies planned for October.

Back to the question "What are they protesting about?"

Answer: Whatever they're told to protest about. As long as the payments come through, it doesn't much matter. Oh, and there's the oft-mentioned promise by organizers: "As soon as Thaksin is back in power, your debts will be forgiven and you'll have lots more money."

You are indeed referring to gardening apparatus by its proper noun. I didn't think there was room for such discourse on this thread...

[justanothercybertosser]

That which you call political compromise others call political suicide. You've quite exposed yourself this time, advocating amnesty now for the poisoned alphabet soup of the banned slimebags of the TRT/PPP/PT so that these dogs of lawlessness can be set upon the announced upcoming election.

Your calls of the past several months for elections now have been cloaking this nefarious and pernicious scheme revealed by you today.

This is an extremist position that has nothing to do with reality. Many of the banned politicians have been young and very able politicians who have personally not violated any election law.

The mafia types are in every political party (for example Suthep in the Democrats - he has been personally implicated in serious election violations). The maybe worst offender in TRT/PPP - Newin Chidchob - is now part of the new coalition, and can even dominate by proxy the extremely powerful MOI.

Nafarious and pernicious scheme...

Sorry, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am neither a politician, nor any other player in this game. I have no schemes, and i have said the same many times before. The "laws" that led to the ban of the many politicians have been disputed by many neutral observers. There are more than a few studies and academic articles available that support my views. It would be useful for you to read some of them.

[justanothercybertosser]

The latest plan which it seems PTP have agreed to is that the charter amendment process will go ahead meaning there will be no elections until late next year. The idea of Chavalit entering politics again is quite obnoxious considering when he was PM him & T were in cahoots allowing massive movement of THB into USD before the devaluation. He is also being held responsible for the protest fiasco last year & his army record is not good if one looks back to the Thai - Lao skirmish although there are some who feel his army connections might help. Two Cs & a T, what a desperate scenario.

Upcoming red protests will not achieve much unless there is a plan for them to turn violent which could eventually lead to civil war & this scenario is of no consequence to a megalomaniac.

Reds, yellows, blues all pretending they are fighting for the well being of the populace especially the 'have nots' when all it is really about is a power struggle between two groups of 'haves' who want to keep all the power & money in their hands. Although money is certainly a driving force I believe it is the seduction of power that truly drives them. After all they are mostly filthy rich.

The dream is for a group with a leader to emerge & become a strong force & actually work for the benefit of the people. This type has emerged in the past all over the world but, & I hope this is the correct definition of the old saying, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You underestimate the importance of ideology in Thailand. This is not just about power and money per se, but about different views with which system Thailand is to be governed in the future.

Chavalit's entry into PT has to be seen in context of his considerable clout in the military. Which is a sign that democratic development in Thailand is on a steady retreat being replaced by increased military involvement. The logical conclusion to this will be a inner-military conflict resulting in another coup. This both street protest movements will not support, which means a continuation and most likely escalation of the struggles on the street level.