Government To Proceed With Charter Rewrite

[webfact]

DESPITE PHEU THAI BOYCOTT

Govt to proceed with charter rewrite: Suthep

By The Nation

The government will strive to foster reconciliation and proceed with the charter rewrite regardless of the boycott from the Pheu Thai Party and the opposition from the yellow shirts, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thuagsuban said on Thursday.

"The government will march on under the circumstances," he said, dismissing concern about the turmoil spawned by differing views over the charter amendments.

Suthep denied the allegation by the main opposition party that the government lacked sincerity to amend the charter.

"The government is sincere and wants to involve the people in the charter rewriting process by holding a referendum," he said.

Even though the opposition withdrew from the drafting process, theother parties concerned could still complete the rewriting, he said.

He said the government was not playing game with the charter amendments.

He also reminded the People's Alliance for Democracy that it had already opted the mainstream politics by forming the New Politics Party, therefore there was no justification to oppose the charter rewrite by resuming street protests.

Also Thursday, chief coalition whip Chinnaworn Boonyakiart alleged that fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra has pulled strings to force the Pheu Thai to cancel its support for charter amendments.

"I want to question whether Thaksin's move to cause the Pheu Thai about-turn is actually an attempt to derail the reconciliation," he said.

Chinnaworn said Thaksin chose to time his action to coincide with the planned rally by the red shirts, both of which designed to fuel animosity.

He was reacting to Thaksin's phone-in on Tuesday urging the opposition lawmakers to backpedal from the charter rewrite.

In a related development, Deputy Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanit said the charter rewrite might have to be suspended if the main opposition party decided to withdraw from the drafting process.

"Without the opposition's involvement, it is not dignified to push through the charter amendments," he said.

-- The Nation 2009/10/08

[Plus]

Oops, now it's dead.

PAD is against it, and PTP is against it, and Democrats are against it.

Perhaps Pheu Thai realized that nine-months timeline is not fast good enough and they plan to force elections sooner by some other means.

Perhaps they realized that people would reject the amendments anyway, so they decided to cloud the issue by making it appear simple - pre-coup/post-coup difference. The problem is that there are too many differences between the versions and people are not likely to go into those details, so asking them to make a simple, emotional choice, is easier.

On the other hand, in no time PAD will make it into "restore Thaksin to pre-coup status" proposal and vow to fight it to death, and the public would be scared of the prospects of reliving this battle again.

There's no way to bring Thaksin back, the more they try, the more apparent the futility of that struggle becomes.

[webfact]

'Thaksin behind about-turn of Pheu Thai on charter rewrite'

Fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra has pulled strings to force the Pheu Thai Party to cancel its support for charter amendments, chief coalition whip Chinnaworn Boonyakiart said on Thursday.

"I want to question whether Thaksin's move to cause the Pheu Thai about-turn is actually an attempt to derail the reconciliation," he said.

Chinnaworn said Thaksin chose to time his action to coincide with the planned rally by the red shirts, both of which designed to fuel animosity.

-- The Nation 2009/10/08

[xminator]

What PT did say was they wanted a return to 97-constitution. One should never forget what the 2007 constitution is. A constitution written by a military junta. Its main purpose to halt any legal prosecution of the 2006 coup makers. That would be the first step to "reconciliation". For the democrats to put the foot down and say "coups are not okay", return to the 97-constitution, prosecute the coup makers and dissolve the house.

I'm a bit surprised the 97 constitution didnt have stops in place for a plain replace. In most democratic countries its a lenghty process to actually change the constitution. In my country a proposal for change and the actuall change have to be done over two diffrent houses, so any controversial change will be a focus point of house elections.

[Plus]

Change the whole constitution so you can prosecute a small group of people?

That's not going to fly.

[jasreeve17]

This constitution was always a problem - a coup led government with martial law in place threatening to keep power unless it was voted for...

The solution? I'm for bringing back the 97 constitution, and ammending the areas that have been previously abused by MrT's government. This constitution was strong, but like all constitutions needed a constant natural evolution to keep up with the times.

Who would make the ammendments? Whoever they are it'd need to be a very visible process free from political infighting. Is that possible here?

I agree with some of the ideas stated above; Abhisit wants to use this ammendment to push out the timeline for an election. The MrT supporters want an election as soon as possible. The PAD, I'm not sure why they don't want any ammendments, it's a point of principle for them, but I've not heard the reasoning explained - there may or may not be a good reason from them, I don't know.

Is Abhisit strong enough to push this through against PAD and red shirt street protests? Only if the army want him to be. At this stage it's really down to (as over the last few years) what the army generals and one other want to do. If ISOC take control ahead of street protests and stop PAD and red shirt protests then what happens next?

[Samuian]

Change the whole constitution so you can prosecute a small group of people?

That's not going to fly.

this is very interesting, the fugitive wants the 97' back... to prosecute those who chucked him out,

those who talk about reconciliation want their boss back at the helm to get back to the pot's of plenty

and power...

I wonder... nobody talks about wrongs or rights... nope, stir it back!

Then it's like a magic time machine - everything is turned back - no way - this won't happen!

And the other thing is that the Thaksin Government as soon as it was in office started to amend and amend

the constitution till a big, big share deal went tax free...and several other things...

Well how about to declare the Emergency decree in the south at the time of the Tak Bai and Kru Seah incident

as illegal....?

How about....

A referendum and change the proposed parts oft he 2006 Constitution - after all it has been accepted by

a referendum!

Why does the hydra all of a sudden rears her neck again?

...if this change get's the approval of the people, not much can be done about it- or will the fugitive have the guts to call 'em all "Liars" ?

[Plus]

PAD is against the amendments because they were proposed by politicians for their own benefit.

Abhisit doesn't want amendments but he promised he'd do something about it. And if politicians really insist, he insists on asking people first.

Re-writing 1997 constitution is a major task that could take years. 2007 version doesn't have a "coup" watermark on it, btw. Why not do a comprehensive re-write of that instead?

They can start with any edition, doesn't really matter. It would still take years.

Or we can wait for PAD to start talking New Politics on big scale - that could completely change the political debate and 97 version will seem hopelessly outdated.

[animatic]

PTP is NOW against it because they don't get enough even if it all goes their way,

and don't want the people to have a say, because then they might get even less.

Thaksin can't get his way, so back to another tack. Total osbscurantism.

He also knows how much trouble PAD could be in getting a re-write his way.

It sure smells more and like Poo tie (old school thai)

[jasreeve17]

PAD is against the amendments because they were proposed by politicians for their own benefit.

Abhisit doesn't want amendments but he promised he'd do something about it. And if politicians really insist, he insists on asking people first.

Re-writing 1997 constitution is a major task that could take years. 2007 version doesn't have a "coup" watermark on it, btw. Why not do a comprehensive re-write of that instead?

They can start with any edition, doesn't really matter. It would still take years.

Or we can wait for PAD to start talking New Politics on big scale - that could completely change the political debate and 97 version will seem hopelessly outdated.

This is a big problem here (anywhere?). I don't trust Sondhi to carry the torch of righteousness, personally.

It's a problem for Abhisit, and he has to tread lightly not to upset the generals. Getting the people's opinion on the constitution appears like a good idea; very hard to do in practice. Well worth it if done well. Probably not possible here.

Maybe. If you have a professional, unbiased and credible body in place then which starting point you choose is not the be all and end all. The final result is more important, I agree.

'New Politics' is a biggie for you. I don't believe that it's anything other than right wing rhetoric for 'give ME the power'.

It looks like this could be the catalyst for another time of change. If PAD street protests get Abhisit out, then who do they want in? Chalerm, MrT, Nevin? With the formation of the new party (do they wear black now by the way? I walked through Thammasart yesterday and it was full of blackshirts with yellow headbands...) it can only be Sondhi, but no way would this ever happen. Would it? Could it? Surely not even the PAD could think of getting Sondhi in as PM, nahhh, don't be silly, Jas.

[Plus]

Sondhi and New Politics could sparkle a debate that might go into completely unforeseen directions and shake up the whole system. Forget about "ban exececutives for five years or not" silly nonsense.

Apart from new politics itself with profession based constituencies and appointment/elections within them, we could see debate on elected governors, on balance between national and local politics, on cabinet appointments and qualifications, on democratization of political parties with mandatory caucuses and increased transparency in decision making process etc etc.

That could only be good for the country, not matter what the outcome or who initiated it.

[baht&sold]

This is a big problem here (anywhere?). I don't trust Sondhi to carry the torch of righteousness, personally.

It's a problem for Abhisit, and he has to tread lightly not to upset the generals. Getting the people's opinion on the constitution appears like a good idea; very hard to do in practice. Well worth it if done well. Probably not possible here.

I don't trust Sondhi either, simmering grudge match et al. Also don't care for airport sit-ins nor appointed represntatives.

Regarding **The Generals** would that also include Gen Chavalit, Gen Chaisit Shinawatra, Puea Thai Chief Advisor Gen Chettha etc, etc, etc?

Meanwhile, a few more points to ponder:

1- Puea Thai calling for elections is yet another 'red-herring'. Even if they won, they'd have another minority govt and wouldn't last the first vote in the house and they know it.

2- If the 97 constitution (which was grossly manipulated by TRT) was re-instated, the first order from PTP would be to anull the AEC etc and all charges brought.

3- Puea Thai were pushing for charter clause changes hardest but balked at having a public referendum, with Mr Thaksin stating "The changes don't involve the public"...

4- The red leaders knew full well the pity-pardon petition was unacceptable and would never make it through the Justice Dept. Thus, it's real design appears to divide even further.

5- The clock is ticking louder than ever on Mr Thaksin's approx 2 Billion USD frozen assets.

So, what's really going on here? Elections won't get to the 'REAL' goal, nor will going along with a transparent public referendum. The stage is now set for a (hopefully) final manipulated red showdown starting Oct 17 (on the doorstep of high season and coinciding with the ASEAN summit).

[jasreeve17]

Yes, too many generals (past and present) invoved in Thai politics. Why oh why oh why does this country feel that a military education is an excellent basis for their politicians?

Many questions? Too many? On all sides cause it's all power politics, nothing else. The masses really do get a poor deal from their leaders, no matter which party they follow.

All we can ask for is baby steps towards democracy and equality, for those at the bottom, and accountability of those at the top. I don't see that coming from the army, or their representatives. Newin's group offer nothing, fullstop. The red leaders and yellow leaders are pure selfish power politics guys...

As I've said for ages, the red and yellow shirt masses must break away from their leaders and join together to form a pressure group without political ambition, but for political fairness. But, that is very unlikely. Who would lead such a group?

Away from my dreams and back to the ammendments: I don't trust any side. They are all playing it for their own polarized political gain. With the PAD back on the streets, and the reds too, anything could happen...

[otherstuff1957]

Both the '97 and the '07 constitutions had their flaws and either one would need to be amended. The '97 constitution was considered to be the 'people's constitution' but was weak in it's protections against abuse of power (and consequently corruption). The '07 constitution was crafted to prevent the rise of a powerful 'Thaksin like' figure. However, with it's appointed senators it is just not democratic enough. Regardless of which constitution is used a major charter amendment is necessary.

Aphisit may indeed be using this as an excuse to put off elections, but I do think that negotiated charter amendments with a public referendum would be the most democratic and fairest thing for Thailand.

[baht&sold]

Pheu Thai still supports charter amendments but opposes referendum: whips

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...endments-but-op

-- The Nation 8 Oct 2009

Edited October 8, 2009 by baht&sold

[baht&sold]

Just in: UDD TO RALLY ON SUNDAY

Where: Democracy Monument from 4pm

Theme: "Get Abhisit out, bring back 1997 charter"

Cause: UDD supporters feel the 1997 charter was the "best yet" and want it brought back

As stated previously, elections won't work for the red's handlers and public referendums are unacceptable. Thus, look for a build-up to 'other' options...

[h90]

This constitution was always a problem - a coup led government with martial law in place threatening to keep power unless it was voted for...

The solution? I'm for bringing back the 97 constitution, and ammending the areas that have been previously abused by MrT's government. This constitution was strong, but like all constitutions needed a constant natural evolution to keep up with the times.

Who would make the ammendments? Whoever they are it'd need to be a very visible process free from political infighting. Is that possible here?

I agree with some of the ideas stated above; Abhisit wants to use this ammendment to push out the timeline for an election. The MrT supporters want an election as soon as possible. The PAD, I'm not sure why they don't want any ammendments, it's a point of principle for them, but I've not heard the reasoning explained - there may or may not be a good reason from them, I don't know.

Is Abhisit strong enough to push this through against PAD and red shirt street protests? Only if the army want him to be. At this stage it's really down to (as over the last few years) what the army generals and one other want to do. If ISOC take control ahead of street protests and stop PAD and red shirt protests then what happens next?

What about a complete new constitution?

Worldwide are many good constitutions which can be copied and adjusted to the local needs.

[Publicus]

Pheu Thai still supports charter amendments but opposes referendum: whips

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...endments-but-op

-- The Nation 8 Oct 2009

Looks like Chavalit and PTP members are being whipped around a bit more. Because of climate change in Thailand the wind now blows from Dubai.

[jasreeve17]

This constitution was always a problem - a coup led government with martial law in place threatening to keep power unless it was voted for...

The solution? I'm for bringing back the 97 constitution, and ammending the areas that have been previously abused by MrT's government. This constitution was strong, but like all constitutions needed a constant natural evolution to keep up with the times.

Who would make the ammendments? Whoever they are it'd need to be a very visible process free from political infighting. Is that possible here?

I agree with some of the ideas stated above; Abhisit wants to use this ammendment to push out the timeline for an election. The MrT supporters want an election as soon as possible. The PAD, I'm not sure why they don't want any ammendments, it's a point of principle for them, but I've not heard the reasoning explained - there may or may not be a good reason from them, I don't know.

Is Abhisit strong enough to push this through against PAD and red shirt street protests? Only if the army want him to be. At this stage it's really down to (as over the last few years) what the army generals and one other want to do. If ISOC take control ahead of street protests and stop PAD and red shirt protests then what happens next?

What about a complete new constitution?

Worldwide are many good constitutions which can be copied and adjusted to the local needs.

Sounds like a good idea.

Getting away from this, Thaistyle, unique Thai... rubbish would be great because it's often used as an excuse for corrupt practice. I have no problem with 'Thai-ness', in fact I like it, but I have a problem with the way politicians lie about it to underpin their stealing.

I like the way you're thinking, H90.

[Thai at Heart]

This constitution was always a problem - a coup led government with martial law in place threatening to keep power unless it was voted for...

The solution? I'm for bringing back the 97 constitution, and ammending the areas that have been previously abused by MrT's government. This constitution was strong, but like all constitutions needed a constant natural evolution to keep up with the times.

Who would make the ammendments? Whoever they are it'd need to be a very visible process free from political infighting. Is that possible here?

I agree with some of the ideas stated above; Abhisit wants to use this ammendment to push out the timeline for an election. The MrT supporters want an election as soon as possible. The PAD, I'm not sure why they don't want any ammendments, it's a point of principle for them, but I've not heard the reasoning explained - there may or may not be a good reason from them, I don't know.

Is Abhisit strong enough to push this through against PAD and red shirt street protests? Only if the army want him to be. At this stage it's really down to (as over the last few years) what the army generals and one other want to do. If ISOC take control ahead of street protests and stop PAD and red shirt protests then what happens next?

What about a complete new constitution?

Worldwide are many good constitutions which can be copied and adjusted to the local needs.

I am all for it, but absorbing something from another country lock, stock and smoking barrel isn't something that Thailand ever does very well. By the time the best constitution in the world had been "Thai-ified", it would be completely unrecognisable from the original.

[slimdog]

And the other thing is that the Thaksin Government as soon as it was in office started to amend and amend

the constitution till a big, big share deal went tax free...and several other things...

Just for reference.

From 11th October 1997, when it was promulgated until it's abolition on 20th September 2006, the 1997 Constitution was never amended.

The last time a Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand was amended was on 22nd October 1996, when the sixth and final amendment to the 1991 Constitution was passed allowing for the drafting of a new permanent Constitution.