Men Are From Mars .. Etc..

[eek]

Ok, so was a VERY long time ago that i read that book, but i recall some elements being food for thought.

One element im curious about is this "men and their caves" concept...ie:

What to do when a man goes into his cave? How to shorten the time period spent in their caves? – “The more women try to get them to talk or come out, the longer it takes.”

Men are like rubber bands – when they pull away they can stretch only so far before they come springing back.

When a man loves a women, periodically, he needs to pull back before he can get closer.

A man automatically alternates between needing intimacy and autonomy

To feel better Martians go to their caves to solve problems alone" - source: Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus – John Gray.

As to why i am curious, well its because its something that i periodically have experience of with Mr Eek (and one is going on atm). From time to time, with no reason that i can think of or see, he withdraws. Literally. Where he just doesnt want to talk or spend time with me. Usually for a day or two. It doesnt seem to be anything to do with me per say. He just isnt in the mood to be around anyone. The only thing i can do is just step back and let him get on with it (from experience i realised that asking him whats wrong and trying to be supportive isnt appreciated and makes the whole thing last longer). Its like one moment he is caring and sweet and everything is fine, then suddenly one day he withdraws. I do have an inkling its maybe when business is having some hiccups, as he prefers to talk to me about the business when its going well. But, im not sure. When he comes out of it, he is back to his same old self as if nothing odd had even happened.

So..has anyone had experience of this with their men? If so, what are your thoughts on it? How do you handle it?

Men are of course most welcome to give their opinion, as insight from a male perspective would be great.

Trollish comments, however, are not needed.

Thanks.

[eek]

Hmm..here's an extract from the book on it:

MEN GO TO THEIR CAVES AND WOMEN TALK

One of the biggest differences between men and women is how they cope with stress. Men become increasing focused and withdrawn while women become increasingly overwhelmed and emotionally involved. He feels better by solving problems while she feels better by talking about problems.

When a men is stressed he will withdraw into the cave of his mind and focus on solving a problem. He generally picks the most urgent problem or the most difficult. He becomes so focused on solving this one problem that he temporarily loses awareness of everything else. At such times, he becomes increasingly distant, forgetful, unresponsive, and preoccupied in his relationships. It seems as if only 5% of his mind is available for the relationship while the other 95% is still at work. His full awareness is not present because he is mulling over his problem, hoping to find a solution. The more stressed he is the more gripped by the problem he will be. At such time he is incapable of giving a woman the attention and feeling that she normally receives and certainly deserves. His mind is preoccupied, and he is powerless to release it. If, however, he can find a solution instantly he will feel much better and come out of his cave; suddenly he is available for being in a relationship again. However, if he cannot find a solution to his problem, then he remains stuck in the cave. To get unstuck he is drawn to solving little problems, like reading the news, watching TV, driving his car, doing physical exercise and so forth. Any challenging activity that initially requires only 5% of his mind can assist him in forgetting his problems. Then the next day he can redirect his focus to his problem with greater success.

When a man begins to ignore his wife, she often takes it personally. At such times, she may feel the need to talk about these feelings. This is when it is important for the man to validate her feelings. He needs to understand that she has a right to talk about her feelings of being ignored and unsupported just as he has a right to withdraw into his cave and not talk.

When a women is stressed she instinctively feels a need to talk about her feelings and all the possible problems that are associated with her feelings. When she beings talking she dos not prioritize the significance of any problem. If she is upset, then she is upset about it all, big and small. Through exploring her feelings in this process she gain a greater awareness what is really bothering her, and then suddenly she is no longer so overwhelmed.

When women talk about problems, men usually resist. A man assumes she is talking with him about her problems because she is holding him responsible. The more problems, the more he feels blamed. He does not realize that she is talking to feel better. A man doesn’t know that she will appreciate it if he just listens.

Men talk about problems for only two reasons: they are blaming someone or they are seeking advice. If a woman is really upset a man assumes she is blaming him. If she seems less upset, then he assumes she is asking for advice. If he assumes she is blaming him, then he draws his sward to protect himself from attack.

When men were completely preoccupied and in their caves, the women should not take it personally. Women should learn that this was not the time to have intimate conversations but a time to talk about problems with their friends or have fun and go shopping. When the men thereby felt loved and accepted, the women discovered that the men would more quickly come out of their caves.

After men learned how to listen to a woman talk about problems, they began to realize that it could actually help them come out of their caves in the same way as watching the news on TV or reading a newspaper. Similarly, as men learn to listen without feeling blamed or responsible, listening becomes much easier. He realizes that listening can be an excellent way to forget the problems of his day as well as bring a lot of fulfillment to his partner. But on days when he may need to be in his cave and slowly come out by some other distraction, like the news or a competitive sports.

Edited October 25, 2009 by eek

[cognos]

nothing against you eek, what has this to do with Thailand? I make a post about my Thai wife in Canada threatening to go back to LOS, and its deemed "not Thai related?" I think its because I have been warned a few times, so they are "looking out for me", and you probably have a good reputation with the M--s. I will probably get nailed for this comment too..c'est la vie, c'est la guerre i guess.

[cognos]

nothing against you eek, what has this to do with Thailand? I make a post about my Thai wife in Canada threatening to go back to LOS, and its deemed "not Thai related?" I think its because I have been warned a few times, so they are "looking out for me", and you probably have a good reputation with the M--s. I will probably get nailed for this comment too..c'est la vie, c'est la guerre i guess.

never mind.. I know why.. the ladies form is an exception, that fine, and I now know not to mention mods on Thai visa, but to write them personally

[GrahamF]

eek, I can't explain it very well but the times that I have been in a long term relationship, I have found from time to time that I also "want to be alone" and just do my own thing. It has nothing to do with my g/f, sometimes it might be that I want to work out a problem on my own or sometimes I feel a need to decompress by myself. I just don't want to talk with anyone and I just want to chill out and do my own thing. I have heard/read somewhere, not sure where, that men tend to want to get to a solution quickly while women tend to talk it out a little longer. In fact, there are times that I have had some problems and didn't bring them up to the g/f as I felt that I would be bothering her! Silly, I know and when the g/f found out after the fact she was pretty hurt and upset that I did not come to her. It was a good learning experience for both of us though and she agreed to give me space when needed and I agreed that if I felt really overwhelmed by something then I would let her know what was up.

I really think that it is just the way we are wired. I am sure it is not anything you may have done or not done. The only suggestion I have is that sometime when Mr. eek is his regular old self you let him know that you are always there for him if needed.

Cognos, the ladies forum is run a little differently than some other forums and does not operate like General Topics. It is a ladies centric forum and if you look at some of the topics you will see this, e.g. what perfume are you on, etc. I think this also goes for some of the other forums, like electronics, etc.

As far as your topic about your wife wanting to move back to Thailand, I don't know the details, but in fact, this might be the forum you want to post in, on that subject. You might get some valuable feedback and insights from the ladies, especially the Thai ladies who frequent this forum. Quite a few guys have started threads here, myself included, on many topics and as long as your polite and not trolling I think you might find it worth your while.

Sorry eek, not trying to hijack your thread!

[H2oDunc]

EEK its a man thing and its nothing you have done or need to worry about. We need our own little place where we are master. Back in the UK my domain was my garage. Here it is under the house. The garage was messy with bits of motorbikes lying all over the place and there was oil everyhere. If it lasts more than a day or so though it needs tackling

[PhilHarries]

Utter b.s. It has been scientifically proven that neither Mars nor Venus are capable of supporting human life. Besides which if it were true Mars would be covered in pubs and strip joints and Venus in shopping malls and beauty salons.

Only joking.

Could the reason your hubby seems to withdraw from time to time be that, like the rest of the human race, he sometimes needs a brief period peace and solitude.

[IanForbes]

Like the other guys said... it's a man thing. If we are working on some problem in our brain we like to do it alone. Men by nature like to fix things, and to fix things, first you need to know how. I'm a writer and will often go quiet when I need to get creative. Most creative people are like that... including my sister. That is one reason why I stay single. I don't want to bother anyone else and I don't want to be bothered by others when I'm trying to get something done. Once I have things figured out then it's time to join the party again.

I enjoyed the book, even though I don't agree with all of it. It's mostly a hand full of good ideas with a lot of fluff added to fill in the blanks.

[nidge]

Hi Eek,

I'll try to give my view on this topic. In my relationship this is our biggest issue. I am with my wife almost 24 hours a day. Sometimes I need to be alone to "spring clean my brain". I have no idea why I need to do this. If i tell my wife to go to her mothers. friends or to the shopping mall without me she gets upset and suggests i'm kicking her out. In the end we argue until it almost is like kicking her out. Once i'm alone i work on my mountain bikes or sit mindlessly in front of the computer. I guess it would look like i'm vegetating but there is loads going on inside my head. If i'm disturbed then my mind starts the process all over again. I have no control in this, i just have to wait until the "program" has finished. You said your husband can take a day or two. I'm sure every guy is different but I guess that it's that long because you probably unknowingly disturb him. 4-6 hours is normally enough for me. When he is like this, try not talking to him at all and perhaps occasionally take him a coffee or glass of water, put it near him and don't talk. It might bring him back to you much quicker. When he is "away", he doesn't love you any less, he's just clearing up the crap in his head so he can get back to the important thinks in his like, like you.

Sorry if this is an uncoordinated ramble but it's complicated and not easy to put into words.

Nidge.

[Heng]

I definitely require my personal cave space. Funny how a lot of guys do that. Fridge, minibar, small fridge, even a 1/2 bathroom (I can't shower, but hey, this is a caveman's space) in addition to the usual needs: television/net/and stereo. I don't mind other family members in this space, but I do restrict access if I'm not in the mood to be a family member. Don't even let the maid sweep and mop everyday... once a month is plenty, thanks. Almost like a little 2 room condo in the middle of my house. I don't have everything I need in there, but probably around 90%. Keeps me from sitting around in bars, or wandering around searching for whatever to a certain extent.

I'd advise gals that want long lasting relationships with their guys in balance: don't mess with this space.

[TheGoodDoctor]

^^ Yeah, its funny. You work your ass off so you can afford a nice big space for yourself and your family and then once you have it you create a little area the size of a studio apartment where you will spend the majority of your time. Kind of like running a marathon just so you can finish and take a nap. I can't imagine watching a film in the middle of a living room, can you? So many fuc_king noises and distractions.

"Feed me, fuc_k me, and shut the fuc_k up."

-Chris Rock

[submaniac]

Back in the UK my domain was my garage. Here it is under the house.

Under the house? Like a gnome or a troll (the the latter lives under bridges)? OK ok I'm not big on fantasy creatures that live under things, but still I would hope your man space would at least be above ground.

And to Eek, it's normal. I think every guy does the same thing. I mean he could be doing alot worst than needing his own private space.

[eek]

Appreciate the feedback. Been particularly great to get so much feedback from men.

I know he could be doing a lot worse sub, and i trust him, but at the same time when it happens I end up feeling a bit dejected and have to shove out wandering thoughts that dont do me any good. Mostly, after I realise it going to be a "cave moment", i think to myself "Oh ..F*** it!!" (sorry to sound so crass! But its true) and get on with planning things for myself. Of course if it were only a few hours it would be easier to handle, but its usually a few days!

To be honest im maybe a bit of a hypocrite in this as i realise im a bit of a "caver" myself. I like holing myself up for days working on various things and dont like getting disturbed when im in flow. But, usually i work like that during the day when he is working too. On occasions if i need absolute space to concentrate for a day or maybe two, i would at least explain it before hand.

Well anyway, for now im just going about doing my own thing. Bah, and men say WE are complicated!

[sbk]

Well, I've been told I think like a man, got 48% man 52 % woman on a stupid Facebook quiz and a member who decided I was a man.

Now I read this thread, and wonder maybe I am? I need my space, I like a nice quiet place to retreat to. There are times when the last thing I want to do is talk.

Uh oh. poor Mr sbk.

[PhilHarries]

Check this piece out, it's quite interesting and fairly relevant.

How would you cope on a silent retreat?

Charmian Evans turned her back on her busy, urban life and spent three days on a silent retreat.

If Harry Potter had walked in and yelled “Expelliarmus!”, the effect could not have been more dramatic. At the ting of a tiny gong, 30 chattering strangers – a doctor, bank manager, farmer, builder, solicitor, nurse – became mute, and remained like that for an entire weekend. They shut up as part of a three-day retreat to get away from the ever noisier world.

“A silent retreat?” shrieked friends when I told them where I was going. I grinned sheepishly knowing that it would be a bit like trying to muzzle me. I didn’t care; I could do with some peace and quiet. For townies, at least, this is the noisiest time of the year, with Diwali firecrackers and Bonfire Night fireworks providing a nightly chorus that lasts for weeks.

So when that gong sounded, I was relieved. The tranquility of this Buddhist retreat – held at Gaia House, an imposing Georgian house near Newton Abbott in Devon, set in acres of beautiful gardens – would be good enough for Buddha himself.

Rest here : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/wellbein...nt-retreat.html

[richard_smith237]

I thought it was just me who was like this. We've talked about it and luckily my girlfriend completely accepts my need for a a little extra space now and again. She calls it my quiet time.

I can't explain it though, mens hormones?

[eek]

I think for me its not about wanting space or anything thats an issue, because i Iike my space as weII as peace and quiet too. In fact, im a bit of a hermit. Its more about the sudden shut down. Iike a waII comes down and its not expected. If i need space, im open about it, and usuaIIy wouId give some kind of reason.

Maybe im not making sense.. I guess what im trying to say is the extremeness of it is hard to swaIIow.

Anyway, this earIy eve when he was feeIing better he ended up having a huff because i said i was going out. Waa! First im not wanted for a whiIe, so i make pIans for myseIf, then im supposed to be there because hes ready. IoI sorry, just having a mini rant. Im sure aII wiII be back to normaI soon.

Thanks again aII for the repIies.

Edited October 26, 2009 by eek

[fletchsmile]

Hmm..here's an extract from the book on it:

MEN GO TO THEIR CAVES AND WOMEN TALK

One of the biggest differences between men and women is how they cope with stress. Men become increasing focused and withdrawn while women become increasingly overwhelmed and emotionally involved. He feels better by solving problems while she feels better by talking about problems.

Have often wondered whether it would be worthwhile reading this book - and in the end never got round to it. Strikes me that in order to sell books and make money it taps into the desire for many people to explain everything in a single lifetime, by oversimplifying and generalising with quick one size (or should I say planet ) fits all answers.

Life is much more diverse - you need far more planets than two, and there's a whole solar system out there when it comes to people. sbk's post aludes to that.

To put in a Thai context, for example, many Thai women become withdrawn and go silent when there's a problem, preferring not to talk about it. Ask any foreign gentleman married to a Thai lady whether he has had "the silent treatment" instead of emotional reactions when it comes to a stressful argument or disagreement...while the foreign gentleman might wants to talk it through, for the Thai lady it can be best left unsaid..

Edited October 26, 2009 by fletchsmile

[Gaccha]

If we raise the intellectual bar a bit, I strongly recommend this:

'Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity'-- Judith Butler

After you've read that it will be difficult to take any of these Cosmopolitan magazine-style books seriously again. I appreciate that , for some, 'Men are from mars...' can be a 'good laugh' as it picks up on certain superficial observations and then repeats them, but if you want to know what is actually going on you need to read the Butler classic. Sometimes, the truth can be hardgoing.

[F1fanatic]

Hmm..here's an extract from the book on it:

MEN GO TO THEIR CAVES AND WOMEN TALK

One of the biggest differences between men and women is how they cope with stress. Men become increasing focused and withdrawn while women become increasingly overwhelmed and emotionally involved. He feels better by solving problems while she feels better by talking about problems.

Have often wondered whether it would be worthwhile reading this book - and in the end never got round to it. Strikes me that in order to sell books and make money it taps into the desire for many people to explain everything in a single lifetime, by oversimplifying and generalising with quick one size (or should I say planet ) fits all answers.

Life is much more diverse - you need far more planets than two, and there's a whole solar system out there when it comes to people. sbk's post aludes to that.

To put in a Thai context, for example, many Thai women become withdrawn and go silent when there's a problem, preferring not to talk about it. Ask any foreign gentleman married to a Thai lady whether he has had "the silent treatment" instead of emotional reactions when it comes to a stressful argument or disagreement...while the foreign gentleman might wants to talk it through, for the Thai lady it can be best left unsaid..

He may have a point. Western women go v quiet when their man has seriously pissed them off and think he should realise this - meanwhile the man has no idea that he's done anything wrong! I'm sure we've all been guilty of this on the odd occasion! Western women do not however generally go quiet during an argument! I suspect Thai women go quiet for a different reason - they're unable to articulate (in a foreign language) what they want to say.

Both sexes occasionally need time on their own to deal with problems, but as a previous poster pointed out - if it goes on for more than a couple of days, its time to talk.

[nidge]

My wife is only half Thai. Unfortunately the part that's not Thai includes the "how to act when hubby has pissed me off". She makes it very clear when i've been a naughty boy

[eek]

If we raise the intellectual bar a bit, I strongly recommend this:

'Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity'-- Judith Butler

After you've read that it will be difficult to take any of these Cosmopolitan magazine-style books seriously again. I appreciate that , for some, 'Men are from mars...' can be a 'good laugh' as it picks up on certain superficial observations and then repeats them, but if you want to know what is actually going on you need to read the Butler classic. Sometimes, the truth can be hardgoing.

Hmm..sounds interesting. Thanks.

My wife is only half Thai. Unfortunately the part that's not Thai includes the "how to act when hubby has pissed me off". She makes it very clear when i've been a naughty boy

Aww poor nidge.

[sbk]

If we raise the intellectual bar a bit, I strongly recommend this:

'Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity'-- Judith Butler

After you've read that it will be difficult to take any of these Cosmopolitan magazine-style books seriously again. I appreciate that , for some, 'Men are from mars...' can be a 'good laugh' as it picks up on certain superficial observations and then repeats them, but if you want to know what is actually going on you need to read the Butler classic. Sometimes, the truth can be hardgoing.

Um, this is assuming that radical French feminist theory has had a major impact on gender relations worldwide. Nobody thinks we are the same, but I, for one, do not see why treating people equally is so disturbing for some people.

[IanForbes]

Nobody thinks we are the same, but I, for one, do not see why treating people equally is so disturbing for some people.

That is good in theory, sbk, but in actuality it's often very different. North America has taken great effort in making things more fair between the sexes, but that is often taken to extremes and sometimes goes the other way. I don't think there is any question that women get treated as second class citizens in Asia, and they CERTAINLY do in the middle east (outside of Israel).

All it takes is one biased judge and you have discrimination.

[Gaccha]

If we raise the intellectual bar a bit, I strongly recommend this:

'Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity'-- Judith Butler

After you've read that it will be difficult to take any of these Cosmopolitan magazine-style books seriously again. I appreciate that , for some, 'Men are from mars...' can be a 'good laugh' as it picks up on certain superficial observations and then repeats them, but if you want to know what is actually going on you need to read the Butler classic. Sometimes, the truth can be hardgoing.

Um, this is assuming that radical French feminist theory has had a major impact on gender relations worldwide. Nobody thinks we are the same, but I, for one, do not see why treating people equally is so disturbing for some people.

Crikey, I don't think for a minute the theory has had any impact on gender relations. If it had, the book would be now redundant. The point of the book is to examine the performativity of not only gender, but of sex and sexuality. To grotesquely parody her position, she sees us all in a constant drag performance. What you see as being a man, or being male, she regards as not only constituted by social relations, but the very performativity of it. So perhaps your examination of what makes your male friends/boyfriends/ husbamd tick is to actually generate the tick itself.

[mssabai]

If we raise the intellectual bar a bit, I strongly recommend this:

'Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity'-- Judith Butler

After you've read that it will be difficult to take any of these Cosmopolitan magazine-style books seriously again. I appreciate that , for some, 'Men are from mars...' can be a 'good laugh' as it picks up on certain superficial observations and then repeats them, but if you want to know what is actually going on you need to read the Butler classic. Sometimes, the truth can be hardgoing.

Um, this is assuming that radical French feminist theory has had a major impact on gender relations worldwide. Nobody thinks we are the same, but I, for one, do not see why treating people equally is so disturbing for some people.

Crikey, I don't think for a minute the theory has had any impact on gender relations. If it had, the book would be now redundant. The point of the book is to examine the performativity of not only gender, but of sex and sexuality. To grotesquely parody her position, she sees us all in a constant drag performance. What you see as being a man, or being male, she regards as not only constituted by social relations, but the very performativity of it. So perhaps your examination of what makes your male friends/boyfriends/ husbamd tick is to actually generate the tick itself.

I'd go with this to some degree. I do however believe that certain aspects of biology such as the effect of hormones on women, do make it not entirely true. Any woman who has ever experienced PMT, will understand where the stereotype of a weepy over emotional female comes from. Pregnancy hormones similarly. I assume there must be similar hormones at work in men that produce their own effects (testosterone for instance).

NB - I actually hated 'men are from Mars, women are from venus' almost as much as I loathe Cosmopolitans psycho-babble-lite type articles. I feel couples should take the time to understand each other in their own context, not just have the women go and read a book on how to deal with a man when he has a strop. You can pretty much guarantee that no man is going off and reading a book on how to deal with hormonal mood swings....much as we would like them to.

Edited October 29, 2009 by mssabai