Problem With Tot Billing

[Monkey Boy]

I recently received a letter from the Electricity Company to say that I had missed payment on my electricity bill and that they would cut me off within 7 days if no payment was made. I thought this was strange as all my utility bills are direct debit from my Thai bank account.

On checking the account I found that TOT had virtually cleaned the account out by debiting nearly 15,000 THB for phone charges. (Luckily I just top this account up for the utility bills and don't keep my savings there). This seemed highly suspicious as my normal phone bill is less than 500 THB per month.

Further investigation at the local TOT office showed that ‘numerous’ mobile numbers had been called from my land line. This was confirmed when their bill finally arrived and contained 4 A4 pages full of phone numbers (both sides, two columns per page!). It showed that for a one month period, for every day, there was 10 – 15 numbers being rung via my land line to every corner of Thailand.

On questioning TOT about how someone could hijack my line, their reply was “somebody must have been inside your house using my phone”. I had to point out that due to the number and length of the calls (some of the calls were 100 plus minutes in duration), that I would definitely know if somebody other than the wife and I was in the house.

When asked about compensation for the excessive charges the reply was,” bill paid already – nothing can do”.

I then asked how much my bill is for this month so far. On checking that was up to nearly 5,000 THB and was informed that I will have to pay or lose my line. I don’t want to lose the land line, as I use it for overseas companies to call me on.

The only help TOT would offer was that I could lock my phone with a 9 digit pin number and after making a call, immediately reapply the 9 digit pin number again. Thus preventing others using my line. I don’t know if this will work, only next month’s bill will indicate so.

Has anybody else experienced this situation here in Thailand and what can I do (apart from disconnect the line and use a mobile number) to prevent this and claim my funds back????

[Phil Conners]

When asked about compensation for the excessive charges the reply was,” bill paid already – nothing can do”.

Exactly the reason I don't let ANYONE take money out of my account automatically. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before something like this happens, or someone make an error or deliberately empties the account ... and you get a snotty reply like that.

About someone using your line, well it's theft so at least in theory you should be able to report it to the cops. Not that I think that will accomplish anything of course. Unfortunately it's dead easy to plug into someone else's telephone line, particularly if the line goes through "quiet" areas where a thief could cut into the line without anyone seeing it. Try following your telephone line all the way from your house to the switch and see if you notice anything suspicious.

I wonder if it's possible to put a cap on your telephone line so it can only be used for, say, 500 baht, then no outgoing calls possible.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Phil Conners

[LivinLOS]

If anyone can get access to the cabling inside or outside its trivial to use a linesmans handset to dial..

[RKASA]

Get the list of numbers called and start calling them. It won't take long to find out who was making the calls. We had a single line to a station that everyone used and when someone didn't log their calls or confess to them we just called the numbers on the bill and connected the dots. worked every time.

[Monkey Boy]

Get the list of numbers called and start calling them. It won't take long to find out who was making the calls. We had a single line to a station that everyone used and when someone didn't log their calls or confess to them we just called the numbers on the bill and connected the dots. worked every time.

Started doing that. Wife has phoned some of the numbers but other end just reply that nobody has phoned them from Si Sa Ket (especially the one number in Chang Mai were somebody spoke for 200 minutes in one evening!).

I did mention the police to TOT, but you can guess how they reacted to that.

I walked the line and so far haven't seen a tap, but I guess I would have to catch the scumbags red handed while they were hooked up.

I also mentioned to TOT why they aren't providing a secure service (especially as I'm paying for it), that one just got a smile back.

[GungaDin]

Get the list of numbers called and . start calling them it won't take long to find out who was making the calls. We had a single line to a station that everyone used and when someone didn't log their calls or confess to them we just called the numbers on the bill and connected the dots. worked every time.

Seconded!

[A_Traveller]

Are these calls scattered throughout the day or just, say early evening ?

Regards

[phazey]

I've experienced this to a lesser extent. Well $3000 worth of calls to Holland (it was in the office, not personal). Your line has been tapped for sure.

I'd recommend you get a "receptionists phone" or a phone that indicates when it's off hook. Then learn a few Thai insults and blast em, OR have someone saying they are the police investigating a massive fraud case, and both parties have been tracked and will be expecting a visit from their friends with the tight fitting brown suits.

[Monkey Boy]

Are these calls scattered throughout the day or just, say early evening ?

Regards

All throughout the day start from 6 in the morning till 11 at night. Compiling a list of the numbers to try and see which numbers are popping up more than once (only about 400 odd numbers to check).

[A_Traveller]

^ Then agree a phone with 'line active' indicator might be a good idea. One question what happens if you pick-up the phone handset? I'd assume that the phone line would be unavailable [like a 'party line' of yore]. An off the wall thought, are you using a 'wireless' handset?

Regards

PS Odd that those you called didn't recognise the number [call-id]

PPS If you are in a condo then you should try to review the connexion [demarcation] point [which will usually be for all phones into the building]

Edited December 10, 2009 by A_Traveller

[Pib]

Due to weak customer/banking protection laws in Thailand I would not recommend bill automatic/direct debit. Once a Thai company has your money it's EXTREMELY had to get any of it back. The phone company could greatly help in determining whether the calls were truly originated from your residence or possibly from another point upstream of your residence; now whether the phone company will help or not that is a different story. And as recommended by others, there is going to have to be some research into the numbers called and you providing some kind of proof (i.e., really bending the ear of the phone company) that no one living in your residence has a clue who the people called are/would have never been called. Obviously, you are going to have to watch the calls billed to your number like a hawk...contact the phone company every few days to see what calls have been made while explaining the reason behind your query. Personally, and if you haven't already, I would recommend you talk to some "supervision" within the phone company vs just customer reps regarding this problem--and document everything to include names, dates, times, etc. Supervison will hopefully want to get you off their back and provide a fix.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Pib

[opalhort]

Have TOT check your entire line from house to exchange!

It may not be a tap.

About 6 or 7 years ago we had some up-country calls on our TOT bill we never made. After asking around in the neighborhood we found that a person five houses from us in the same soi actually made the calls and has been billed for them.

TOT checked and found a fault due to water in the box where individual lines are connected to the main line; they called it a "short".

Didn't bother to file a claim since it was only 300something Baht.

opalhort

[RKASA]

I would also cancel the service and get a cell phone.

[nikster]

The secure service could work, however, wouldn't somebody tapped into your line be able to listen in to you entering the number and get it from there?

It seems like an awful lot of calls - so it's either some TOT internal error which I think is about 100 times more likely than somebody tapping into your phone. Or if somebody is really using your phone, maybe they're selling it on?!

Letting them debit your account was a mistake, but I guess you have learned that now. That's the first thing you need to change. Then, when this happens again, you can not pay, and deny making the calls, and they'll have to do something about it.

Might want to change your overseas business number to a mobile...

Another thought: If somebody is using your line every day and all the time - wouldn't you be able to listen in when picking up the receiver? You could spend a day monitoring your phone...

Edited December 11, 2009 by nikster

[opalhort]

It seems like an awful lot of calls - so it's either some TOT internal error which I think is about 100 times more likely than somebody tapping into your phone.

There was a time when TOT had problems with their billing system. Many users received bill for calls they never made.

So, yes this could also be the problem. But I thought this issue had been corrected by last year?

Another thought: If somebody is using your line every day and all the time - wouldn't you be able to listen in when picking up the receiver? You could spend a day monitoring your phone...

If somebody taps into a line they may well disconnect your line for the duration of the call. All you'd get would be no dial-tone.

opalhort

[Phil Conners]

^ Nope, you'd just hear the conversation in the same was as if you had two phones in your house on the same line.

[opalhort]

All they have to do is use a simple switch to move your line to their phone and in the meantime your phone line is dead.

opalhort

[Phil Conners]

^ Only if they actually move the line away. More likely they just hook onto the existing line like with a linesmans handset.

But I think the problem is more likely a billing error. TiT.

[opalhort]

^ yes a billing error or a technical issue on part of TOT is the most likely cause of the problem the OP is facing.

As for tapping a phone line, if done with black cable at a location where there is a big tangle of them (almost everywhere here) you wouldn't notice a tap from street level.

All you need to do is this (no moving of cables required!)

opalhort

[Jonathanpattaya]

^ yes a billing error or a technical issue on part of TOT is the most likely cause of the problem the OP is facing.

As for tapping a phone line, if done with black cable at a location where there is a big tangle of them (almost everywhere here) you wouldn't notice a tap from street level.

All you need to do is this (no moving of cables required!)

opalhort

I think you may have found your culprit!

[opalhort]

I think you may have found your culprit!

Yeah, right.

This is exactly what happened in our soi some time ago on a TOT and True line. Not our lines though.

The guys did what I described and covered everything with black tape.

Took the owners of the lines quite some time to identify and solve the problem, especially because the TOT and True technicians are obviously not the brightest around.

opalhort

[gregb]

The other possibility is that it is a TOT engineer who has made a side deal with a VoIP terminator. All they need to do is install an ANI translation at the switch on the incoming call before the call hits the billing system and you get the bill instead of the customer who made it.

TT&T engineers used to do this all the time and bill calls to pay phones so the terminator could avoid the charges.

This would be the result of a corrupt technician at TOT. He gets his corruption payment, you get stuck with the bill, and nobody is the wiser. Not saying for sure this is what is happening, but if you can't find a tap it is something that can not be dismissed as impossible. However, I agree that a less nefarious billing system error is probably more likely.

If you go ahead and do the 9 digit lockout for a month, and you are still getting hit with charges, then you have strong evidence of a billing error. At that point I would call in the police, talk to a lawyer, and threaten the filing of criminal fraud charges against TOT if they don't resolve the problem. That should spur them into action of pulling the switch logs and finding out what is really going on. If the charges stop after the 9 digit lock, then it is probably someone local to you tapping the lines and TOT is innocent.

If you want to keep the line active though, you are going to have to pay the bill. They will only negotiate with you once they turn it off.

All I can say is start keeping meticulous records at this point and prepare for a battle. They are the phone company. They don't have to care.

Edited December 11, 2009 by gregb

[Phil Conners]

Will getting a code help at all? If someone is connected to the line can't they just record the code and play it back before making their own calls? I mean, the code is just dial tones just like numbers called...

Edited December 11, 2009 by Phil Conners