N. Korea Aircraft Makes Emergency Landing At Bangkok's Don Mueang Airport

[ferd54]

You haven't mentioned the role played by the United States in bombing villages in Cambodia thought to be sheltering Vietnamese troops.

I thought it was fairly widely accepted that it was the US interference that allowed the Khmer Rouge to take power...?

The US sent special forces into Cambodia in an attempt to destroy Viet Cong/North Vietnamese regular troop sanctuaries that were used as staging grounds for attacks on South Vietnam. The Vietnamese troops were in Cambodia illegally and in violation of Cambodia's sovereignty; Cambodia's King repeatedly demanded they leave (though following his moves was indeed like trying to unravel a spider's web). Eventually US troops partially "invaded" bordering areas of Cambodia.

The Khmer Rouge was already fighting the government at that time.

When the US pulled out of SE Asia, Cambodia soon fell to the Khmer Rouge. They later attacked Vietnam, which then came in and kicked their ass. That had to do with China vs Soviet proxies, not the US.

[caf]

Qoute Ah, Victor Bout is back in business again. I knew from the moment he was released from detention here in Thailand and flew back to Moscow he would connect back with his old company Air West.quote

Where did you get that information ?

Victor (Viktor) Bout is in a Thai prison, Klong Prem Central Prison, a high security prison and the same prison as where the Ilyushin-76 crew is detained.

LaoPo

quote

Mr. LaoPo;

You sound like a very intelligent man on here. Don't get me wrong.

I know Mr. Bout, worked with him in Pakistan, once while he was in United Emmerates, and seen him in Pattaya a few times. Even before his capture by Thai and U.S. government.

Until you get your facts in order, please do a little reading, try to make contact with his wife, go to the prision and ask to speak to Mr. Bout, because you know he is still there in his cell. They both took off back to Russia right after he was released. But, I know you are a very smart man, don't get me wrong.

quote

I have to admit Mr. elshaheen that you make me speechless.

What do you know that we don't ? ....."he was released ?"....WHEN ?

LaoPo

I just noticed you're online Mr. elshaheen...I'm still waiting for your reply about Viktor Bout ?

LaoPo

You're online now. Are you going to give an answer to the forum

[Sabre]

You haven't mentioned the role played by the United States in bombing villages in Cambodia thought to be sheltering Vietnamese troops.

I thought it was fairly widely accepted that it was the US interference that allowed the Khmer Rouge to take power...?

The US sent special forces into Cambodia in an attempt to destroy Viet Cong/North Vietnamese regular troop sanctuaries that were used as staging grounds for attacks on South Vietnam. The Vietnamese troops were in Cambodia illegally and in violation of Cambodia's sovereignty; Cambodia's King repeatedly demanded they leave (though following his moves was indeed like trying to unravel a spider's web). Eventually US troops partially "invaded" bordering areas of Cambodia.

The Khmer Rouge was already fighting the government at that time.

When the US pulled out of SE Asia, Cambodia soon fell to the Khmer Rouge. They later attacked Vietnam, which then came in and kicked their ass. That had to do with China vs Soviet proxies, not the US.

Yes, now you mention it, it seems a bit one-dimensional to blame the U.S. alone.

[Sherlocke]

What are "war weapons"? are there any other kinds?

[Sherlocke]

"Same with these drone attacks when civilians get killed. It's terrible, but I'm sure the military does everything it can to limit innocent people getting killed. The same cannot be said for its enemies. " - this is a poster claiming to be presenting facts????

[PhilHarries]

When the US pulled out of SE Asia, Cambodia soon fell to the Khmer Rouge. They later attacked Vietnam, which then came in and kicked their ass. That had to do with China vs Soviet proxies, not the US.

And let's not forget that the Thais, sh1tting in their pants that the Vietnamese were going to roll right on through, sided with Pol Pot and the remnants of the Khmer Rouge to provide a buffer along the Thai / Cambodian border.

[sokal]

Fortunately for the people of Sudan, or wherever these weapons were headed, the fact they originated in North Korea means the weapons were tracked, stopped and investigations will be thorough. If the haul had come from the Ukraine, it sadly would likely have reached its destination with no problem.

We can only hope this is close to the final straw for China and that it finds it can no longer give even tacit support to old Kim Jong Ill.

All in all this was a very good bust on several levels. Good on the Thais that they are willing to step up to the plate.

It wont stop all the weapons and training that come from western democracies that are used to kill and maim and carry out hideous human rights violations, and which a very a big blind eye is turned to. Truth is N.Korea only supplies a negligible proportion of world armaments and doesnt even come near in competing with the weapons, devices, training and technology the west supplies even if we only look at severe human rights abusing countries. Still few of us like to face up to our own regimes carrying out such practices.

You could not be more wrong. The US advances and spends money on military mainly to reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties during conflicts.

[sokal]

It wont stop all the weapons and training that come from western democracies that are used to kill and maim and carry out hideous human rights violations... N.Korea only supplies a negligible proportion of world armaments... Still few of us like to face up to our own regimes carrying out such practices.

True, but it also true that the people the West is now in conflict with -- Muslim extremists -- care actual ZERO for human rights, as they proved very clearly on 9/11 and so many, many times suicide bombers have knowingly blown up women and children, often fellow Muslims.

If the US was a brutal as those folks, they have the military power to literally obliterate them from the face of the earth -- but wouldn't dream of doing that.

So stop whanging on about human rights. I'm not sure beasts deserve them anyway.

Actually I was trying to not concentrate on the US but on the west.

Lots of women and children get killed by bombs dropped form aircraft too or drones or missiles or western troops or the troops of western allies. Is that not also denial of human rights? And we could then get back to how the weapons supplied by the west get used. Guess we shouldnt mention how the Khmer Rouge supported by western governments kept their UN seat after they were removed from power by the Vietnamese, or exactly how the Taliban came into existance or the country from which Al Qaeda originates or how Hamas back in the early days always had easy access to a certain western embassy when the "socialist" PLO were seen as a threat. Reading a bit of history from a variety of perspectives is usually quite revealing. North Korea may have a hideous regime and support a few causes the west doesnt like and even make a bit of cash on the side by exporting a bunch of aging weaponry (not like leading western countries dont) but it is hardly the great satan it is made out to be and its economy cant even support its own population beyond poverty level. Admittedly N. Korea did test a nuclear weapon that partially detonated but since the west ignored Israel developing a whole nuclear arsenal it can hardly criticse any other country that fancies the big weaponry without looking hypocritical and utterly bias.

I am by the way one of those people of the west and I am certainly not in conflict with anyone;)

Edited to add: I make a distinction between the people of the west (or any other place) and the regimes/governments and their vested interest groups by the way.

It took 6 weeks of combat for Saddam Hussains government to fall in Iraq. Less civilians died in those six weeks then civilians died on the 9/11 attacks. Most of the deaths in Iraq after the fall of the govt where muslim on muslim, sunni vs <deleted>.

[cougar52]

This just more lies from the Thai and US Governments, the request was given to the Thai to get this plane because the US Spy Satellite showed the N. Koreans loading the plane. The the rest of the story is here:

Thailand 'Forced Plane Carrying N.Korean Arms to Land'

A Georgian cargo plane carrying North Korean weapons was not impounded in Thailand during a refueling stop, as previously believed, but was forced to land by fighter planes after it entered Thai airspace, the influential Russian daily Kommersant reported Thursday.

The Ilyushin Il-76 left Pyongyang on Dec. 12. The moment it entered Thai airspace, two Thai fighters on standby ordered it to land at Don Mueang Airport in Bangkok based on a tip-off from a foreign intelligence agency, the daily said.

The Thai government announced that the plane was impounded after it landed for refueling and checks of wheels and tires. The news suggests that the cargo plane, which was attempting to carry North Korean weapons to a foreign country in disregard of a UN embargo, was stopped in Thai airspace before it could proceed to a scheduled refueling stop to Sri Lanka.

Thai daily The Nation said that an English-language weapons manual was discovered in the process of checking the North Korean arms. There is speculation that the weapons might not have originated from North Korea, the daily added.

According to Thai law, the five crewmembers face a sentence between two years in jail and death depending on whether they were attempting to deliver the weapons to a war zone.

[email protected] / Dec. 18, 2009 10:08 KST

[ferd54]

When the US pulled out of SE Asia, Cambodia soon fell to the Khmer Rouge. They later attacked Vietnam, which then came in and kicked their ass. That had to do with China vs Soviet proxies, not the US.

And let's not forget that the Thais, sh1tting in their pants that the Vietnamese were going to roll right on through, sided with Pol Pot and the remnants of the Khmer Rouge to provide a buffer along the Thai / Cambodian border.

That is true. When I arrived in Thailand in 1991, the Thai military was on very friendly terms with the Khmer Rouge across the border. At the time I was shocked, but not now.

[Publicus]

Fortunately for the people of Sudan, or wherever these weapons were headed, the fact they originated in North Korea means the weapons were tracked, stopped and investigations will be thorough. If the haul had come from the Ukraine, it sadly would likely have reached its destination with no problem.

We can only hope this is close to the final straw for China and that it finds it can no longer give even tacit support to old Kim Jong Ill.

All in all this was a very good bust on several levels. Good on the Thais that they are willing to step up to the plate.

It wont stop all the weapons and training that come from western democracies that are used to kill and maim and carry out hideous human rights violations, and which a very a big blind eye is turned to. Truth is N.Korea only supplies a negligible proportion of world armaments and doesnt even come near in competing with the weapons, devices, training and technology the west supplies even if we only look at severe human rights abusing countries. Still few of us like to face up to our own regimes carrying out such practices.

You could not be more wrong. The US advances and spends money on military mainly to reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties during conflicts.

Indeed, the advent of "smart" bombs which include rockets and weapons such as cruise missles has enabled combatants to more precisely direct the explosives to the intended target. The US military is the leader in this high tech weaponry.

Gone are the days of WW2 bombings of civilian population centers whether cities or villages. The WW2 bombing strategy, based on the technology of the time, carried forward into the Vietnam War. Some "smart" armaments were introduced during the Vietnam War but only in limited ways as the new technology was still in its infancy.

Post the Gulf War of 1991, to include the NATO actions against Belgrade, the focus has been on reducing and limiting civilian casualties during military operations. The point now is to save a village by, well, saving it. Much remains to perfect the technology, but the idea of airstrkes in particular is radically different, unlike al Qaeda using passenger airliners against civilians in tall buildings of a metropolis.  

Edited December 18, 2009 by Publicus

[TAWP]

What are "war weapons"? are there any other kinds?

Yes.

Normal handguns; pistols, revolvers, shotguns, rifles and [depending on country] SMG's are normal weapons, while assault rifles, machineguns etc and upwards (this is often also caliber limited in the lower end) is classified as 'weapons of war'. So in Thailand.

No-one can get a license to have a 'Weapon of War' for target shooting here. But that didn't stop that wife of a principal of having several together with her new boyfriend, planning on presumably doing some nice shooting up...but illegal weapons exist en masse of course.

[ferd54]

There is speculation that the weapons might not have originated from North Korea, the daily added.

Speculation from whom? Crap journalism. What, the end users are expected to read Korean? Of course there would be instructions in a mutually understood language, and that is almost always English these days.

[Publicus]

Impeccable English, I'm sure! 

[ericthai]

What are "war weapons"? are there any other kinds?

Yes.

Normal handguns; pistols, revolvers, shotguns, rifles and [depending on country] SMG's are normal weapons, while assault rifles, machineguns etc and upwards (this is often also caliber limited in the lower end) is classified as 'weapons of war'. So in Thailand.

No-one can get a license to have a 'Weapon of War' for target shooting here. But that didn't stop that wife of a principal of having several together with her new boyfriend, planning on presumably doing some nice shooting up...but illegal weapons exist en masse of course.

Yes weapons are illegal, so only outlaws will have them..

Really miss not being able to have a gun, go hunting and some target shooting.

[brahmburgers]

Unless I missed it, we haven't heard a peep from N.Korea on this. Plus, it's still not watertight that the weapons originated from there. Could have been Russian weapons.

It might be interesting to get a listen to what Bout and the new guys are discussing in prison.

[PhilHarries]

Unless I missed it, we haven't heard a peep from N.Korea on this. Plus, it's still not watertight that the weapons originated from there. Could have been Russian weapons.

It might be interesting to get a listen to what Bout and the new guys are discussing in prison.

Why the hel_l would Russia, or any other country, ship it's weapons via a country that's under an arms embargo?

[maimeepom]

Unless I missed it, we haven't heard a peep from N.Korea on this. Plus, it's still not watertight that the weapons originated from there. Could have been Russian weapons.

It might be interesting to get a listen to what Bout and the new guys are discussing in prison.

I saw an interesting interview on Al Jazeera news channel, with an English professor who specialises in all things North Korea.

He said that N.Korean arms exports were worth about $1.5 billion a year.

He also said that in the past N. Korea has exported considerable amounts of arms to Pakistan and Iran, including large missiles , that had been converted by N.Korea.

The Professor mentioned that the Thai government were quite incensed with N.Korea, for refusing to settle outstanding bills for rice imports.

I don't know how much N.Korea owes Thailand for the rice, but I wonder if it is more than the value of high milleage IL 76 and some assorted munitions?

[LaoPo]

Thais: US tip led to seizure of arms from NKorea

Associated Press, 12.17.09

Excerpts:

The crew - four from Kazakhstan and one from Belarus - have been jailed on illegal arms possession charges.

The wife of Mikail Petukhov - the Belarussian identified in Thai court documents - said he had served in the Soviet military and afterward took whatever job he could find. Vera Petukhova said her husband never knows who he'll be working with before going out on a job. A friend of Petukhov, 54, added that he also never knows what he'll be transporting.

"All the containers are sealed, and the captain only gets the printout of what is supposed to be inside them. But what's inside, that's a question for the people who load it onto the plane at the pick-up point," said Vladimir Migol, who also served in the Soviet air force and noted that many ex-service men struggled to find work after being discharged. Migol said while crew members such as Petukhov would never knowingly transport weapons, they are all aware of the risk but are usually desperate for jobs.

The plane was registered to Air West, a cargo transport company in the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

Kazakhstan's Foreign Ministry said this week that the plane was leased to New Zealand company SP Trading Ltd.

Authorities in New Zealand are investigating, a spokesman for its Foreign Ministry, James Funnell said Thursday.

"We have always been staunch supporters of the sanctions regime imposed against North Korea," Funnell told The Associated Press. "So we're very concerned by these allegations and are inquiring into them."

SP Trading is listed in the government's register of companies as having offices in Auckland, New Zealand's largest city, which names Lu Zhang as its director. The company's shares are held by nominee company VICAM (Auckland) Ltd. Listed phone numbers rang unanswered on Thursday.

Impoverished North Korea is believed to earn hundreds of millions of dollars every year by selling missiles, missile parts and other weapons to countries such as Iran, Syria and Myanmar.

From: http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/12/17/...ns_7221031.html

LaoPo

[just_another_guy]

Just a tiny request for the MODS... Since this was in no way an emergency landing (pilots were in complete control of the aircraft and no known system failures were reported nor were they low on fuel (in spite of what the pilots said) but in fact were requested / forced to land by the Thai Airforce, perhaps the title of this thread can be corrected to show the actual reason for the safe non emergency landing?

Very interesting news item and interesting comments so far.

Thank you all.

[LaoPo]

Just a tiny request for the MODS... Since this was in no way an emergency landing (pilots were in complete control of the aircraft and no known system failures were reported nor were they low on fuel (in spite of what the pilots said) but in fact were requested / forced to land by the Thai Airforce, perhaps the title of this thread can be corrected to show the actual reason for the safe non emergency landing?

Very interesting news item and interesting comments so far.

Thank you all.

Good point...but was the forced landing (if it was) officially confirmed?

LaoPo

[Publicus]

Unless I missed it, we haven't heard a peep from N.Korea on this. Plus, it's still not watertight that the weapons originated from there. Could have been Russian weapons.

It might be interesting to get a listen to what Bout and the new guys are discussing in prison.

Why the hel_l would Russia, or any other country, ship it's weapons via a country that's under an arms embargo?

Very likely based on market demands and the rigor mortis of so much of the N Korean economy, NK could be expected to pay more to any country willing to sell armaments to it, leaving NK with the risky task of selling and delivering against UN and other sanctions.

In the circumstance, NK no doubt could earn a high turnaround from weapons hungry contras in any number of countries which for various reasons, to include UN sanctions, have difficulty obtaining weapons from other sources. This equation would gain for NK considerable desperately needed cash currency and provide radical extremists in various countries with much needed resupply or expansion of their armaments. 

It's already a matter of record that NK deals in drugs to acquire cash. The Russians are not beyond selling their abundance of idle Cold War arms, a matter that is well recorded. Russia after all has the contract with the Islamic Republic of Iran to develop its nuclear facilities and capabilities - Russia is constructing Iran's nuclear facilities (France constructed the Iraq nuclear facilities Israel took out in a precision bombing, and should be expected to react even more aggressively against the holocaust denying ayatollahs.)  

NK is one of the few countries willing to defy UN sanctions against it and insurgencies in numerous countries that are suffering from similar constraints. NK needs the cash, radical insurgencies need the weapons.  

[Publicus]

Just a tiny request for the MODS... Since this was in no way an emergency landing (pilots were in complete control of the aircraft and no known system failures were reported nor were they low on fuel (in spite of what the pilots said) but in fact were requested / forced to land by the Thai Airforce, perhaps the title of this thread can be corrected to show the actual reason for the safe non emergency landing?

Very interesting news item and interesting comments so far.

Thank you all.

IMO a headline identifies the topic of the thread from its outset, so the constancy of maintaining the topic title of the thread provides both the familiar topic name and stability to the newsclips menu board. Perhaps developments and for some other unusual reasons it could be desirable to change the topic identifier of the thread, but certainly not on a daily or ongoing basis.

If it ain't broken there isn't any reason to fix it.   

[LaoPo]

^^^^

Adding that Mods explained, earlier this week, that headlines (title of topic) can't be changed if they are headlines from news sources; in this case from MCOT NEWS.

LaoPo

Edited December 18, 2009 by LaoPo

[ferd54]

Impeccable English, I'm sure!

Ya, as vetted by the reporter from the Nation.

[brahmburgers]

Unless I missed it, we haven't heard a peep from N.Korea on this. Plus, it's still not watertight that the weapons originated from there. Could have been Russian weapons.

It might be interesting to get a listen to what Bout and the new guys are discussing in prison.

Why the hel_l would Russia, or any other country, ship it's weapons via a country that's under an arms embargo?

Here are some reasons why Russia could be involved:

>>> it shares a vast border with N.Korea. One was a big Communist influence, the other is still living in the Stalinist era.

>>> Russia probably has vast amounts of weapons floating around, particularly after losing the Cold War and being demoted from being one of the two super powers. Such weapons arsenals, especially the smaller stuff, is probably accessible by many without scruples/rubles.

>>> The 5 detainees are from former Soviet U.

>>> The premise is as old as commerce, the 2nd oldest profession. You barter for goods, and then try to sell them for a profit. Though the N.Koreans may be good at copying US dollars (one of their main industries in downtown Pyongyang), they may not be as adept at copying weapons at as high quality standards as originals.

[jackspratt]

>>> it shares a vast border with N.Korea......

19km.

Vast?

[Publicus]

Unless I missed it, we haven't heard a peep from N.Korea on this. Plus, it's still not watertight that the weapons originated from there. Could have been Russian weapons.

It might be interesting to get a listen to what Bout and the new guys are discussing in prison.

I saw an interesting interview on Al Jazeera news channel, with an English professor who specialises in all things North Korea.

He said that N.Korean arms exports were worth about $1.5 billion a year.

He also said that in the past N. Korea has exported considerable amounts of arms to Pakistan and Iran, including large missiles , that had been converted by N.Korea.

The Professor mentioned that the Thai government were quite incensed with N.Korea, for refusing to settle outstanding bills for rice imports.

I don't know how much N.Korea owes Thailand for the rice, but I wonder if it is more than the value of high milleage IL 76 and some assorted munitions?

Not likely to hear much if anything either as N Korea isn't accountable to its population and isn't a part of the international community which discusses matters whether loudly or quietly but are engaged.

Thailand does tweak NK with policies towards it such being the only country of the region that allows NK defectors a safe haven from where refugees can travel to third countries, and now this seizure which I believe as most likely to have been a forced grounding of the arms plane by the Thai air force.

N Korea failing to pay up on the rice deal involves money so the Thai government is messaging NK that business is business.

Abhisit these days keeps asserting that Thailand isn't placing itself in the middle of any global entanglements, such as the illegal arms dealing business, but the 9/11 terrorist Hambali was nabbed in Thailand and more recent actions seem to indicate otherwise. This enhanced international posture also should help the Thai government in its dealing with Cambodia, to include its neighbor's recent decision to hire a high profile bogus economics advisor.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Publicus

[ferd54]

Thailand does tweak NK with policies towards it such being the only country of the region that allows NK defectors a safe haven from where refugees can travel to third countries

That indeed is quite a story. They cross over into northeast China (Manchuria), travel overland the length of China, then illegally cross the borders of Laos and Thailand.

There is one "autonomous county" in Jilin province of China that as something like 85 percent Korean.

[Publicus]

Thailand does tweak NK with policies towards it such being the only country of the region that allows NK defectors a safe haven from where refugees can travel to third countries

That indeed is quite a story. They cross over into northeast China (Manchuria), travel overland the length of China, then illegally cross the borders of Laos and Thailand.

There is one "autonomous county" in Jilin province of China that as something like 85 percent Korean.

Yeh, the route for N Korean defectors to freedom and sanctuary in Thailand is long, tuff and dangerous as the PRC Public Security Bureau police are always on the lookout for defectors who, when snagged, are returned to NK for execution. Long parts of the arduous route are over hills and backwoods trails. There are NGO halfway houses in Thailand from where most defectors fly on to Seoul.

The Korean populated county of Jilin province in the PRC at the NK border provides the point of departure for NK defectors who cross the border into the county then into the province, so the many Koreans there are watched closely by the PSB police. However, the effectiveness of the PRC politics police is limited because no passport is necessary at the PRC-NK border in either direction. If you're a North Korean you just walk into the PRC at any point along the border - same if you're a citizen of the PRC, you simply enter NK. No 'papers' required or requested. Good neighbors and all that.  

That may change tho. The state media of PRC raised a big stink throughout all of PRChina for about ten days straight after the second (actual) NK nuclear test, measuring for radiation fallout daily over northeast China and several times a day in the immediate NK border areas. Radiation reports were on state media daily but after about ten days of none being detected the government had to give it up. Still, the PRC government had made their point of being intensely dissatisfied with Kim.

This arms plane seizure is also all over the news in the PRC as the leaders of the Communist Party of China continue their new and sharp criticisms of Kim Jong Il and NK in general. 

Edited December 19, 2009 by Publicus