N. Korea Aircraft Makes Emergency Landing At Bangkok's Don Mueang Airport

[neverdie]

NORTH KOREA WEAPONS SEIZED

US pleased with Thailand's strong action : Clinton

Well, thank goodness for that, I'm sure the thais only acted because they were worried about what the USA might think.

[ferd54]

If the plane came indeed from North Korea, on it's way to whatever destination is must have been quite a long flight before it landed in Bankok.

IF the plane took fuel on it's way to N. Korea (to load the "merchandise") the plane identification was known to Thai authorities and may have been there before on previous trips...who knows.

WHAT made the plane suspicious this time (other than the unconfirmed rumors that intelligence was behind the info).... and was the crew indeed informed what was in the crates?

I'm sure US satellites have long been monitoring the comings and goings at Pyongyang's airport, which really can't be all that busy by international standards. I read in one of the reports that this plane on this route has been under surveillance due to previous runs from the DPRK.

Why wouldn't it fly over Chinese airspace? It very likely could have.

[geriatrickid]

Can we back up a minute please and look at the big picture?

There are multiple sanctions in place on North Korea. One of the sanctions is that of arms shipments. There is an exception for small arms. The Sri Lanka sanctions are for all arms. Any country that aids and abets the violation of such sanctions has violated the UN embargo. Was the cargo small arms? According to the information provided it is described as;

launchers of rocket-propelled grenades, shoulder-launched missiles, parts of a large weaponry system, various rockets, as well as large pipes.

It doesn't look like small arms does it? The Thai court didn't think so either.

Any country facilitating such a transaction could be seen as violating the UN sanctions and opening itself to sanctions, right?

(I'll leave the terms scum and slime out of this, although they might also be appropriate here since the funds generated would be used to support and sustain one of the world's most evil of regimes.)

Ok, so <deleted> is this about?

Meanwhile, diplomats from Belarus and Kazakhstan tried to post Bt400,000 as bail for each of the suspects yesterday, but the Criminal Court denied their request on grounds that the alleged offences involved a |massive cache of war weapons and that temporary freedom might encourage the five suspects to try to flee legal proceedings in Thailand.

The court got it right, thankfully.

What role do Belarus and Kazakhstan have in this? I think that the trade and the dealings were supported by the respective governments. The Russians never had an easy time with these backward nations either so I suppose this shouldn't come as a surprise. However, I think the usual tangents and retarded arguing over the evils the Taliban, USA, etc. distract from what seems to be state sponsored sanction running. This is heavy sh*t. What we have here are 2 countries interceding on behalf of nationals engaged in international criminal acts. Even if they didn't know it was arms (yea, right) <deleted> are they doing flying to embargoed countries? They sure as heck wouldn't have been transporting copies of the bible or animal crackers would they? Seems to me the ambassadors from Belarus and Kazhkstan should be summoned to the FM and asked for an explanation. Failing that, they should be expelled from the country for aiding and abetting a criminal conspiracy that also had the potential of killing hundreds if not thousands of Thais had the plane crashed. Military ordinance is flown all over Thailand, but it is done on very specific flight paths and under specific supervision and regulation. There are specific clearances to be followed when transporting ordinance. These thugs had no respect for the safety of people.

And lest one think I am being harsh here, you can bet that if an Australian or American or Brit or Indian was caught doing this, their respective embassy staff wouldn't dare offer to post bail.

[PhilHarries]

What's the betting, despite the serious nature of this incident, that it all just fades away and we never get to know the truth, or even the half truth.

The plane will probably be released on receipt of a payment of some kind, the crew given a symbolic sentence and made to disappear, and the arms? Well some of them may be of use to the Thai military but I doubt it, most likely a very public destruction.

[brahmburgers]

China aggressively monitors its airspace. Russia also, as proved by the shooting down of a Korean passenger plane years ago. A 'round the world' solo flight by an adventurer was not given permission to fly over Chinese airspace, so had to circumvent by going over SE Asia - there are probably a lot more similar stories. So it's not farfetched to picture the flight plan of the ill-fated jet going south of China.

My first thoughts, when hearing the breaking news, was that it was headed for Burma. Interesting to see 'official channels' now leaning to that assumption also. The Sri Lanka connection is a canard - maybe a fuel stop at most. The Tamil rebels there are a spent force.

[ferd54]

China aggressively monitors its airspace.

It sure does, but that doesn't mean the flight was not allowed through its airspace. China's airspace is not closed; the first time I flew to Thailand was a long time ago. We laid over in Japan, then flew over China. They may have treated this cargo flight as routine.

I agree Sri Lanka is a canard. I can't imagine the flight was bound for Burma, either, as the junta there gets arms directly from China, with which it no doubt has a credit line.

[PhilHarries]

China aggressively monitors its airspace.

It sure does, but that doesn't mean the flight was not allowed through its airspace. China's airspace is not closed; the first time I flew to Thailand was a long time ago. We laid over in Japan, then flew over China. They may have treated this cargo flight as routine.

I agree Sri Lanka is a canard. I can't imagine the flight was bound for Burma, either, as the junta there gets arms directly from China, with which it no doubt has a credit line.

Yes I originally thought Burma until I saw what they were carrying, you don't need RPG's and surface to air missiles to subdue unarmed civilians.

That leaves Sri Lanka, as you say unlikely, Middle East, doubt it they have their own sources so that leaves Ukraine. Not unthinkable.

[lannarebirth]

What's the betting, despite the serious nature of this incident, that it all just fades away and we never get to know the truth, or even the half truth.

The plane will probably be released on receipt of a payment of some kind, the crew given a symbolic sentence and made to disappear, and the arms? Well some of them may be of use to the Thai military but I doubt it, most likely a very public destruction.

Yes, all that and now they'll know who within the Thai government to pay off for future runs.

[Publicus]

If the plane came indeed from North Korea, on it's way to whatever destination is must have been quite a long flight before it landed in Bankok.

IF the plane took fuel on it's way to N. Korea (to load the "merchandise") the plane identification was known to Thai authorities and may have been there before on previous trips...who knows.

WHAT made the plane suspicious this time (other than the unconfirmed rumors that intelligence was behind the info).... and was the crew indeed informed what was in the crates?

I'm sure US satellites have long been monitoring the comings and goings at Pyongyang's airport, which really can't be all that busy by international standards. I read in one of the reports that this plane on this route has been under surveillance due to previous runs from the DPRK.

Why wouldn't it fly over Chinese airspace? It very likely could have.

Since the real nuclear test this year by NK the PRC has a serious case of the arse against Kim Jong IL and his people in Pyongyang, so could be denying air space access out of spite.

Much more likely however is the fact the PRC is a member of the UNSC which in June imposed the sanctions against NK that NK is now accused of violating in this Bangkok arms case. The PRC very much wants to be seen internationally as a responsible player, so the PRC may have actively denied a NK request to use PRC airspace for this flight (or Pyongyang may have known better than to ask).

The PRC's loss of control over NK, marked definitively by the real nuclear test of earlier this year, has emphasized and reinforced the fact the PRC remains a weak regional power player. 

[geriatrickid]

And what of Belarus and Khazakhstan involvement? Someone in those governments was assisting. You just don't send embassy staff to bail out people like this.

[Matan]

China aggressively monitors its airspace.

It sure does, but that doesn't mean the flight was not allowed through its airspace. China's airspace is not closed; the first time I flew to Thailand was a long time ago. We laid over in Japan, then flew over China. They may have treated this cargo flight as routine.

I agree Sri Lanka is a canard. I can't imagine the flight was bound for Burma, either, as the junta there gets arms directly from China, with which it no doubt has a credit line.

Yes I originally thought Burma until I saw what they were carrying, you don't need RPG's and surface to air missiles to subdue unarmed civilians.

That leaves Sri Lanka, as you say unlikely, Middle East, doubt it they have their own sources so that leaves Ukraine. Not unthinkable.

Why could it not have been bound for Africa?

[PhilHarries]

China aggressively monitors its airspace.

It sure does, but that doesn't mean the flight was not allowed through its airspace. China's airspace is not closed; the first time I flew to Thailand was a long time ago. We laid over in Japan, then flew over China. They may have treated this cargo flight as routine.

I agree Sri Lanka is a canard. I can't imagine the flight was bound for Burma, either, as the junta there gets arms directly from China, with which it no doubt has a credit line.

Yes I originally thought Burma until I saw what they were carrying, you don't need RPG's and surface to air missiles to subdue unarmed civilians.

That leaves Sri Lanka, as you say unlikely, Middle East, doubt it they have their own sources so that leaves Ukraine. Not unthinkable.

Why could it not have been bound for Africa?

Well yes, I'd also overlooked Yemen right on it's flight path. Truth is we'll never know and the pilot sure as hel_l ain't going to tell as his employers are likely to be some bunch on unconventional fellows who'd rather keep out of the spotlight. Thus if he were to spill the beans he'll then be begging to be put away in the Bangkok hilton for the rest of his life.

As for the end users, they are hardly likely to be jumping up and down demanding release of their "oil drilling equipment".

[jerry921]

Was the cargo small arms? According to the information provided it is described as;

launchers of rocket-propelled grenades, shoulder-launched missiles, parts of a large weaponry system, various rockets, as well as large pipes.

Large pipes?

Either the pipes were payload cargo, or they were intended to hide the rest of the stuff. But you don't ship sewer pipe by airmail. So what would the pipes be for if they were part of what was being delivered?

I think I read somewhere that to build a centrifuge you need very large, very strong, very light tubes to attach the hub to the outer parts.

Could these pipes be spokes for spooks?

It's hard for me to judge distances from the map, but NK to Bangkok looks further than Bangkok to Sri Lanka. If Bangkok were about half way, then the other leg would reach toward Pakistan or Iran, perhaps even Syria, wouldn't it? Seems to me like they were just using Sri Lanka as a cover story, intending to fly on by. If they were really headed to Burma, why not just use a plane with a slightly longer range and avoid the risk of a refueling stop? For that matter, if NK is on good terms with Rangoon, why not refuel there? I hope some of the aviators here can estimate where that plane could have reached from Bangkok and whether any similarly capable planes with longer ranges exist.

All this discussion is fascinating, there are so many people on here speaking with such knowledge and authority, and with such highly placed inside sources too. With all this erudite analysis, it should be possible to start a Thai Visa Institute for International Policy Analysis and charge for subscriptions. Something for all you retired operatives to think about.

[ferd54]

Since the real nuclear test this year by NK the PRC has a serious case of the arse against Kim Jong IL and his people in Pyongyang, so could be denying air space access out of spite.

Much more likely however is the fact the PRC is a member of the UNSC which in June imposed the sanctions against NK that NK is now accused of violating in this Bangkok arms case. The PRC very much wants to be seen internationally as a responsible player, so the PRC may have actively denied a NK request to use PRC airspace for this flight (or Pyongyang may have known better than to ask).

The PRC's loss of control over NK, marked definitively by the real nuclear test of earlier this year, has emphasized and reinforced the fact the PRC remains a weak regional power player. 

Again, China could have thought this was a routine flight, but whether or not the plane flew over China is really beside the point.

The Ukraine as the destination? It seems the flight was very far south for that, but I really don't know. Doesn't the Ukraine, after its years as an important part of the Soviet Union, have an arms industry of its own? I think nations -- as opposed to renegade groups and terrorists -- have more "legitimate" ways of acquiring arms.

As for it being "swept under the rug" -- this is bigger than Thailand's petty corruption -- and you bet US intelligence agencies are all over it. If a link can be established to the Middle East, you can be sure the US will play that up big time.

[ferd54]

And this from the AP:

Griffiths said the past owners of the aircraft have been documented by the United Nations as trafficking arms to Liberia, Sierra Leone, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Somalia, Sudan and Chad. He said the plane also was used to ship arms from the Balkans to Burundi in October.

[lordsux]

Yes I originally thought Burma until I saw what they were carrying, you don't need RPG's and surface to air missiles to subdue unarmed civilians.

You don't need bomb proof tunnels to subdue unarmed civilians either.

Nearly 40 of the 53 underground stations located at the Thai-Myanmar border are believed to have been built since 2004.

According to the Thailand-based Irrawaddy magazine, Myanmar has recently stepped up its interest in North Korean military hardware as its looks to upgrade its armed forces in the face of a UN arms embargo.

It's no wonder that Thailand is very interested in this shipment, even if it's final destination is found to be someplace other than Myanmar/Burma

Edited December 15, 2009 by lordsux

[Bagwan]

This thread is taking on some of the aspects of an episode of Fawlty Towers. All it needs now is for one of the leading characters to utter, "I am from Pyongyang. I know nothing."

[rainman]

Large pipes?

Either the pipes were payload cargo, or they were intended to hide the rest of the stuff. But you don't ship sewer pipe by airmail. So what would the pipes be for if they were part of what was being delivered?

Pipe bombs?

[webfact]

More than 600 Million Baht Worth of Weapons Found on Seized Aircraft

UPDATE : 15 December 2009

Crime Suppression Division has found 145 crates of ready-to-use weapons on the seized aircraft from North Korea. The cashe is reportedly worth more than 600 million baht.

-- Tan Network 2009/12/15

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Richard W]

Either the pipes were payload cargo, or they were intended to hide the rest of the stuff. But you don't ship sewer pipe by airmail. So what would the pipes be for if they were part of what was being delivered?

Superguns?

[ferd54]

More than 600 Million Baht Worth of Weapons Found on Seized Aircraft

UPDATE : 15 December 2009

Crime Suppression Division has found 145 crates of ready-to-use weapons on the seized aircraft from North Korea. The cashe is reportedly worth more than 600 million baht.

-- Tan Network 2009/12/15

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Gawd. Cashe? I believe they mean cache.

Sorry, but sometimes the English abuse is just too stupid. I assume this is a "professional" news site?

[LaoPo]

1. China aggressively monitors its airspace.

2. Russia also, as proved by the shooting down of a Korean passenger plane years ago. A 'round the world' solo flight by an adventurer was not given permission to fly over Chinese airspace, so had to circumvent by going over SE Asia - there are probably a lot more similar stories. So it's not farfetched to picture the flight plan of the ill-fated jet going south of China.

My first thoughts, when hearing the breaking news, was that it was headed for Burma. Interesting to see 'official channels' now leaning to that assumption also. The Sri Lanka connection is a canard - maybe a fuel stop at most. The Tamil rebels there are a spent force.

1. How does a country aggressively monitor it's airspace ?.... do they wave with black pirate flags?

What do China and Russia do different to protect their airspace other than other nations ?

2. More -civilian- planes have been shot down, like AIRBUS A300 flight Iran Air 655 in 1988 over the Strait of Hormuz by the US Navy (by mistake) where 290 passengers & crew lost their lives. And that wasn't even their own airspace.

3. Personally I think the plane wasn't allowed to fly over China IF they asked for permission at all, which I doubt, taken the fragile situation between China and North Korea into consideration after the 2nd nuclear test NK performed end May 2009; the first one was in 2006 about which China (and the rest of the world) wasn't too thrilled either.

China wouldn't allow planes with vague cargo flying over it's airspace and they certainly will know everything about ALL movements of planes within their hemisphere; read North Korea. The western countries aren't the only ones with sophisticated intelligence

EDIT:

Asia map again:

If one looks at the map I really wonder WHY the plane, full of weaponry, would land in Thailand and not in another communistic state like Laos or even Vietnam; why would they take the risk to land in Thailand, knowing that Thailand has very close ties with the USA ?

If they flew around China they would first have to pass Vietnam and than either Laos or Cambodia; flying around Vietnam and Cambodia is hardly an option, taking the distance from North Korea into consideration. After all, the reach of that plane is between 3,500 - 4200 Kms depending on the specific type of the Ilyushin IL-76.

IF the plane would have crossed China airspace why not land in Vietnam/Hanoi (Vietnam comes first, coming from NK and crossing China) or Laos/Vientiane rather than Bangkok/Thailand or even Burma?

It stinks but we knew that already, didn't we?

LaoPo

Edited December 15, 2009 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Excerpt:

The aircraft is believed to have started its journey in Central Asia, making several stops on its way to North Korea, including a brief stop in Thailand on Friday.

But when it returned on Saturday morning to the same Bangkok airport to refuel, the plane was searched and the huge cache of weapons discovered.

That's bloody fast.....BKK>>>>NK>>>>>BKK, including loading time; wouldn't a rest-time for the pilots be required also ?

From: http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8412929.stm

LaoPo

[Publicus]

Excerpt:

The aircraft is believed to have started its journey in Central Asia, making several stops on its way to North Korea, including a brief stop in Thailand on Friday.

But when it returned on Saturday morning to the same Bangkok airport to refuel, the plane was searched and the huge cache of weapons discovered.

That's bloody fast.....BKK>>>>NK>>>>>BKK, including loading time; wouldn't a rest-time for the pilots be required also ?

From: http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8412929.stm

LaoPo

The pilots now in police custody don't fly for American Airlines or Air Canada, do they? <deleted> does Kim Jong Il care about rest time for pilots (he doesn't ever fly). While the times are strange to figure out, I doubt anyone involved in this at either end care much about the pilots getting their solid eight hours in a Pyongyang hotel that's occupied on the two bottom floors and always empty on the 25 floors above. 

And yep, the US Embassy in Bangkok says it cannot "either confirm or deny" it knew anything about any "tip offs" by US intelligence to Thai authorities. The US Embassy is in this up to its neck, very glad to say.

And you answered your own question (knowingly or not) in Post #294 when you asked (ever so wily!) whether the PRC controls its own airspace by waving pirate flags, then noted the awesomely (my word) sophisticated (my emphasis) PRC air defense and survelence system knows ALL (your emphais) air movements in in the hemisphere. The fact is the PRC does aggressively police its airspace and its territorial waters. 

Edited December 15, 2009 by Publicus

[geriatrickid]

I wonder if the fellow from Belarus is going to have an epiphany anytime soon and spill his guts? Sitting in a Thai cell, deprived of vodka must be an inducement. I suppose now, people will appreciate why the Russians get all antsy with crazy neighbors like the countries implicated.

[Publicus]

1. China aggressively monitors its airspace.

2. Russia also, as proved by the shooting down of a Korean passenger plane years ago. A 'round the world' solo flight by an adventurer was not given permission to fly over Chinese airspace, so had to circumvent by going over SE Asia - there are probably a lot more similar stories. So it's not farfetched to picture the flight plan of the ill-fated jet going south of China.

My first thoughts, when hearing the breaking news, was that it was headed for Burma. Interesting to see 'official channels' now leaning to that assumption also. The Sri Lanka connection is a canard - maybe a fuel stop at most. The Tamil rebels there are a spent force.

1. How does a country aggressively monitor it's airspace ?.... do they wave with black pirate flags?

What do China and Russia do different to protect their airspace other than other nations ?

2. More -civilian- planes have been shot down, like AIRBUS A300 flight Iran Air 655 in 1988 over the Strait of Hormuz by the US Navy (by mistake) where 290 passengers & crew lost their lives. And that wasn't even their own airspace.

3. Personally I think the plane wasn't allowed to fly over China IF they asked for permission at all, which I doubt, taken the fragile situation between China and North Korea into consideration after the 2nd nuclear test NK performed end May 2009; the first one was in 2006 about which China (and the rest of the world) wasn't too thrilled either.

China wouldn't allow planes with vague cargo flying over it's airspace and they certainly will know everything about ALL movements of planes within their hemisphere; read North Korea. The western countries aren't the only ones with sophisticated intelligence

EDIT:

Asia map again:

If one looks at the map I really wonder WHY the plane, full of weaponry, would land in Thailand and not in another communistic state like Laos or even Vietnam; why would they take the risk to land in Thailand, knowing that Thailand has very close ties with the USA ?

If they flew around China they would first have to pass Vietnam and than either Laos or Cambodia; flying around Vietnam and Cambodia is hardly an option, taking the distance from North Korea into consideration. After all, the reach of that plane is between 3,500 - 4200 Kms depending on the specific type of the Ilyushin IL-76.

IF the plane would have crossed China airspace why not land in Vietnam/Hanoi (Vietnam comes first, coming from NK and crossing China) or Laos/Vientiane rather than Bangkok/Thailand or even Burma?

It stinks but we knew that already, didn't we?

LaoPo

And yes, the PRC does have some certain limited technological intelligence capability primarily due to its R&D, i.e., Receive and Duplicate. More fully, R&DAE, Receive and Duplicate After Espionage.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Publicus

[ferd54]

I wonder if the fellow from Belarus is going to have an epiphany anytime soon and spill his guts? Sitting in a Thai cell, deprived of vodka must be an inducement. I suppose now, people will appreciate why the Russians get all antsy with crazy neighbors like the countries implicated.

Hey, these are no doubt very tough men from a very rough part of the world. Belarus, Russian and Ukraine jails are probably no better, so it might not be that much of a shock for him. Balancing the pain he might be feeling from the DTs would be the status of his family. Anyone crazy enough to have a business transporting North Korean weapons to (fill in the blank) -- ie his boss -- is not someone I would want to screw around with.

[jackspratt]

And yes, the PRC does have some certain limited technological intelligence capability primarily due to its R&D, i.e., Receive and Duplicate. More fully, R&DAE, Receive and Duplicate After Espionage.

Is this the same PRC that in 2006 had the 4th highest R&D spend in the world (in absolute terms), and topping the US, EU, and Japan in % of GDP terms?

I reckon they may have sufficient technology to be watching you Publicus, and with good reason

[webfact]

N Korean plane with weapons a "serious matter" : UN chief

By Deutsche Presse Agentur

New York - A North Korean cargo plane loaded with weapons and seized by Thai authorities in Bangkok is a "serious matter" requiring the attention of the UN Security Council, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said Monday.

Ban said the Thai government was expected to provide the 15-nation council in New York with information on the cargo plane. A Thai court on Monday ordered a 12-day detention period without bail for the five crew members.

The Russian-made IL76 cargo plane was seized by Thai authorities at Don Mueang Airport on Saturday after they discovered 35 tonnes of weapons. The plane originated from Pyongyang and landed in Bangkok for refueling. Its final destination was not revealed.

The UN council has imposed an arms and military equipment embargo on North Korea after it exploded a nuclear device in May this year. North Korea is also prohibited from dealing on nuclear material and important nuclear technology.

-- The Nation 2009/12/15

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[smallpotato]

From the New York Times:

"Four of the crew members carried passports from Kazakhstan, and the other had one from Belarus.

Viktor Abdullayev, one of the pilots, said in an interview Monday that the crew was based in the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

"I am from Kazakhstan", he said, "but I work in Georgia."

The aircraft has changed hands at least twice this year in a tangled web of sales and leasing contacts that will complicate the investigation into who was ultimately responsible for the arms shipment.

The crew member certificate of Mr. Abdullayev's colleague Ilyas Issakov carries the flag of the former Soviet republic of Georgia and the logo of a company called Air West. Mr. Issakov is described as "captain" on the certificate

Air West is an air freight company based in the Black Sea port city of Batumi, Georgia. Nodar Kakabadze, the head of the company, said in an interview that it had leased the plane a month ago to the Ukrainian affiliate of a Thailand-based shipping company called SP Trading."

and:

"Flightglobal, an aviation Web site, said Monday that an airline called Air West is linked to Sun Air, a privately owned Sudanese airline with headquarters in the capital, Khartoum. Another Web site, Aviation Herald, also reported last year - in an account of the hijacking of a Sun Air plane to Libya - that Sun Air and Air West were the same airline."

Who is "SP Trading" ?

Edited December 15, 2009 by smallpotato