Planes Clip Wings At Bangkok Airport

[maxisrael]

Any pilots out there?  Shouldn't this be not only the responsibility of the pilots but the control tower as well, or whoever is telling the pilots to move around on the tarmac?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Grondcontrol is responsible for handling traffic on the ground

[xbusman]

I would bet that this tip is the new winglet added to standard wings, the small bit stanidng up on the end of the wing. They are an add on to older aircraft and improve flight stability and I think fuel efficiency. They are not structural in any way, similar to adding a cover to a steel bumper on a car, they can get all torn up without any structural damage to the plane. There is no way a pilot could have seen or felt the damage, would have had to be seen and reported by a passenger or ground crew. If this was indeed the damage, it would not have affected the safety of the airplane in any way. Still, its fun to see all the posturing and bluster.

As I think about the accident, it would almost have to be the winglet, two differant aircraft would have wings at differant levels, one wing passing over the other would shear off the winglet with only a scratch on the upper wing. Thats way too close.

[george]

Conclusion into airport incident expected this evening

BANGKOK: -- Officials from the Department of Aviation and their counterparts from Singapore hope by this evening to have come to an initial verdict on why a Thai Airways International (THAI) plane clipped wings with a Singapore Airlines craft at Bangkok's Don Muang Airport on Tuesday evening.

The incident, which THAI has stressed was a minor one which in no way compromised passenger safety, has left the two airlines at loggerheads, with THAI refuting Singapore's suggestions that it was solely to blame.

Today officials from the Aeronautical Radio of Thailand Co, Ltd. presented their recording of a conversation between the THAI pilot and the air traffic control tower, showing clearly that the air traffic controllers had warned the pilot that there was another craft parking extremely nearby.

The Thai pilot, who was urged to exercise caution, told the air traffic controllers that he had judged the distance between the two planes and that it was safe for him to move.

The recorded conversation would seem to lend credence to the allegations from Singapore Airlines.

This morning officials from the Department of Aviation and their counterparts from Singapore inspected the damage to the two aircraft, and this evening experts from both sides will meet with officials from the Aeronautical Radio of Thailand Co., Ltd. to conclude the investigation.

--TNA 2005-04-21

[JimGant]

According to the THAI pilot, the Singapore airliner had been ordered to park at Gate 54 to allow the Thai plane to pass.

The Thai pilot, who was urged to exercise caution, told the air traffic controllers that he had judged the distance between the two planes and that it was safe for him to move.

Both pilot and controller maybe erred. Controller should have just said 'hold current position' to the TG until the SA was at the gate, as it sounds like local procedure was 'heavies' can only taxi by this gate when another 'heavy' is blocked-in at this gate. If they're was such a procedure, the controller erred -- or the TG pilot played a Thai power trip and told the controller, 'negative, I'll clear ok,' at which point the controller said, "Ok Khun pilot, but exercise caution." "Hold" is not open to pilot discretion (remember Tenerife?). But if this pilot was former RTAF (probable), they have a habit of ignoring controllers.

If there was no local procedure at this gate intersection, there is now.

And not that it would of made much difference, but I wonder if all transmissions were in English, as they're supposed to be under international regs? If not, the SA pilot had no chance to get the bigger picture and maybe say, 'hold on, mate, be out of your way in a jiff.'

In any event, SA is off the hook, and the Thai pilot is shopping for a new pair of trifocals.

[Peabody]

Update:

Airlines in dispute over airport incident

However, the airline also stressed that the incident was a minor one,and the press had blown it out of proportion.

Although the wing tip had fallen off the plane, this would not have compromised passenger safety in any way should the plane have continued its flight.

********************************************************************

I've been saying for years, those wingtips are not needed and are simply an unneccessary "add-on", designed to line some politicians pockets.

They oughtta leave those ###### things off and return the savings to the flying community!

:sarcasm:

In other news, Thai Airways has decided to stop replacing broken windows on airliners. "As a benefit to our customers, we will use the increased cool air flow to reduce the load on the aircon systems. Savings will be passed on to politicians and airline execs, thus rewarding our passengers with the knowledge that they are helping others." said ThaiAir spokesmouth Somchai Earhard.

[george]

Pilots in accident denied making any mistakes

BANGKOK: -- The pilots of the two airliners involved in Tuesday night's accident at Don Muang airport insisted they had made no mistakes, said Deputy Transport Minister Phumtham Vejjajiva yesterday.

However, Aviation Department investigators were expected to be able to wrap up their inquiry today after looking at other available information, including records from the black boxes of the two passenger jets, Mr Phumtham said.

The accident involved an Airbus 330-300 of Thai Airways Intermational (THAI) and a Singapore Airlines (SIA) aircraft.

The THAI aircraft, with 183 passengers on board, lost the tip of its right wing just before take-off. The missing part was later found on the wing of the parked SIA plane.

--The Post 2005-04-22

[udon]

The THAI aircraft, with 183 passengers on board, lost the tip of its right wing just before take-off. The missing part was later found on the wing of the parked SIA plane.

If true, SQ are cool. Big loss of face for Thai

[JimGant]

I would bet that this tip is the new winglet added to standard wings,

Boeing 777s don't have winglets -- their wings' long aspect angles accomplish the same thing (reducing vortices/drag). But Airbus 330s do, and that was the one lost.

And as far as taking off missing a winglet -- you no doubt would notice some assymetrical drag diffference, tho' not to the extent of an engine out.

I can just see the future of THAI simulator training: 'Ok, now throw the switch that simulates left winglet separation.'

[DaveYo]

Well according to the new information given here, ground control tower did warn the Thai Pilot of the SQ plane. The Thai Pilot negated such and guess all the crap on his own.

Therefore a conclusion can be officially made concerning this incident. The Ground Control is not at fault because such warning was made. The SQ Pilot was holding and not moving at all yet was given clearance to go to gate, but was waiting for the guides to position themselves and clear that plane to gate.

As of the Thai Pilot, one of two things will happen, 1st being his license will be revoked, or 2nd his license will be suspended pending further training and indoctrination to proper ground proceedures. Upon sucessfully completing this training, I also think he will lose his rank as Captain and be demoted to Co-Captain along with the pay cut as part of such disciplinary action. Thai Airways also have the right to FIRE HIM if they wish.

It does not matter whether a wing tip or not is expendable. What matters is there is damage to the plane, and any damage to the plane can compromise the flight dynamics of such aircraft and that such can pose a danger to the crew and passengers while in flight. Remember at FL 390 there is no oxygen for anyone to breath, much less have that much stability flight wise, where as at FL 100, there is air for us to breath and much better flight stability to control the plane.

So finally the Thai crew have a face problem.

[Rinrada]

Airlines in dispute over airport incident [/b]

However, the airline also stressed that the incident was a minor one,and the press had blown it out of proportion.

Even if the Tail had fallen off the plane[/b], this would not have compromised passenger safety in any way should the plane have continued its flight.

Honestly Guv it waz is fault.....naw mate......

[tso310]

There hasn't been much love lost between the two airlines since Singapore were admitted into Star Alliance. THAI always felt that this was a snub to them as they felt they should be the leading asian airline in Star and were also one of the earliest members.

[rickvan]

is the war started ?????

I was in the singapore airport yesterday waiting to board the thai airways flight TG412 17.30 singapore time . What surprised me is that all passagers coming from bangkok have to go to a search the same as you doing when boarding the plane .Also when we arrive in bangkok the plane was park very far from the terminal have to take the bus.

[petedk]

Taken from the Nation today.

Surapol Isarangura, director for operations and emergency of the national flag carrier, said his airline had concluded an internal investigation.

“THAI pilots and aircraft are not at fault because flight procedures were strictly followed and the plane was found be on course to the taxi lane,” he said.

Surapol dismissed reports that an air traffic controller warned the THAI pilots about the parked aircraft.

“It is completely false to claim that pilots could insist on continuing to taxi the plane despite warnings about the presence of another aircraft,” Surapol said.

Under runway traffic rules, air traffic controllers must issue a direct order if traffic cannot proceed. Pilots are not allowed to exercise discretion, he said.

A source close to the investigation said two Singapore Airlines pilots had admitted that they did not see the lines designating the parking zone.

Their remarks indicated that the parked aircraft might have been situated beyond the parking zone, the source said.

A THAI official speaking on condition of anoymity said the wing damage to its Airbus amounted to Bt20 million.

Well it seems as usual that Thais are never at fault and that the blame lies on the Singapore plane that should never have been there.

[george]

Pilots, control tower blamed for crash

Black box recording could shed more light

BANGKOK: -- Thai Airways International and Singapore Airlines pilots along with control tower officials may be to blame for Tuesday's mini-plane crash at Don Muang international airport, a source probing the case disclosed yesterday.

The findings of the investigation show that the accident between the two airlines was an error of judgement for which the control tower should also share the blame.

The probe had found that the SIA pilot had parked the plane beyond the bay's holding line on the airport's tarmac, while the THAI captain had erred by miscalculating the distance between the two aircraft, and officials of the Aeronautical Radio of Thailand (Aerothai) at the control tower contributed to the problem by not responding to a confirmation call from the THAI pilot about the gap between the two carriers, the source said.

The control tower should have alerted the THAI pilot again even though the pilot had told them on the radio that there was enough space between the two planes because they could double-check the distance on their monitors, according to the source sitting on the investigation panel.

The investigators were now only waiting for the decoding of the planes' black boxes and the voice recorder before officially making the results of the investigation public.

But the source admitted that the information from the black boxes was not likely to have any impact on the probe.

Transport Minister Suriya Jungrung-reangkit was expected to make the probe results public on Monday.

The accident occurred when the pilot of flight TG602, bound for Hong Kong, found that the wingtip of the right wing of the THAI plane had fallen off.

The company's operations centre later reported that the aircraft part was found on the wing of SIA flight SQ068, parked at Bay 52.

The minister yesterday promised fairness to all parties in the probe.

The director-general of the Aviation Department Chaisak Angkusuwan said it would depend on the airlines and Aerothai whether they would pursue legal action based on the investigation report's account of what happened.

The department was assigned by the minister to look into the case and find out why it had happened and what measures need to be taken to prevent such an incident from happening again, the official said.

--TNA 2005-04-23

[xbusman]

Look there is nothing complicated about any of this. I have learned from traffic accidents in Bangkok that determination of fault is really quite simple. If the Singaporeans had not been in Thailand the accident would have never happened. It is obviously 100% their fault and a great imposition on Thai pilots to negotiate around these foreigners.

Its all starting to make sense to me. Should I be concerned?

[udon]

xbus, you are correct

[george]

Update:

Airport accident probe results released soon

BANGKOK: -- The results of the official inquiry into the minor plane crash at Bangkok's Don Muang International airport earlier this week will be released on Monday, according to the Transport Minister Suriya Jungrungreangkit said.

The investigation of Tuesday's collision between Thai Airways International (THAI) and Singapore Airlines has been delayed by the decoding of Singapore Airlines' black boxes and transcribing the voice recorder.

When the process is completed it will be compared with the black box and voice recorder of THAI and then forward them to the Aviation Department and its Singapore counterpart, said Mr. Suriya.

There were no injuries reported in the Tuesday's accident.

The accident occurred when Singapore Airlines flight SQ68, taxiing to a gate, clipped the wing of THAI flight 602 as it moved towards the runway for takeoff.

In a statement, THAI officials said neither the pilots nor the aircraft were at fault as the pilots were following the instructions of air traffic control at the time.

The airline, however, said it would wait for results of the joint investigation by the Aviation Department and of Singapore authorities.

The minister will announce the probe results on Monday.

--TNA 2005-04-23

[DaveYo]

Well Its now becoming quite obvious that the Thai tear jerkers are very desperate in looking for a way out of being blamed for this accident.

Now they contradict the ground control towers recording, which I suspect they are so desperate they want to get that recording and have it destroyed. That recording pin points the Thai Pilot totally screwed up.

Secondly, there is no way that the SQ Pilot would be off his taxi line or be too deep in the bay area. This is all controlled by the Airplane taxi guides who direct the pilots direction. Therefore this is immaterial and not the problem or cause of such accident.

It seems the Thai people are trying so frickin hard to twist the story around so that no one can be clearly at fault, concerning their side, and trying to lay the blame to control tower or to SQ.

If it was me making the final decision concerning this incident, I will strip the Thai Pilots license and revoke his permanently. Whats worse Thai people are not man enough to face real facts and admit their mistakes and learn from it.

I MEAN ITS PLAIN AND SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS-------> The Thai wingtip was practically sitting on top of the SQ's plane wing. So how in the heck did it get there????? THAI MAGIC?????????????????

These suckers piss me off literally.

Daveyo

[expatmushroom]

Shit happens, so what.

Just go out on to the roads and how many knocks occur each day? Bet there are alot more car drivers and passenger involved than passengers on that plane. If fact there are more people killed in car accidents world wide than in planes. But who cares, planes accidents make better press for the vultures of the press.

Unlike car drivers, flight crews would not contemplate trying to fly onec they knew they had damage to their aircraft.

[penzman]

If a policeman ever tries to lay that "If you hadn't been in Thailand, it wouldn't have happened" excuse on me, I will be sure to remind him that " If your mother hadn't been mating with a gibbon, you wouldn't be here now, coming up with such a lame excuse to lay the blame on me".

[astral]

I don't see how the SIA pilot can be at fault.

His plane was parked.

If it was wrongly positioned that is down to the ground staff who direct

the traffic.

All down to the THAI pilot, or again the ground staff who are directing him.

[Sphere]

I suppose the SQ pilot committed the henious crime of not switching both his turn indicators on. The TG captain had no way of knowing that SQ was going straight through that intersection.

[DaveYo]

I suppose the SQ pilot committed the henious crime of not switching both his turn indicators on. The TG captain had no way of knowing that SQ was going straight through that intersection. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I got to hand it to you man, turn signals. None of the planes have such much less brake lights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo

[xbusman]

The Thai pilot clearly flashed his landing lights indicating his murderous intent to take the right of way regardless of ground control authority. I just dont see how this could possibly be the fault of a Thai pilot in Thailand.

[Johpa]

At least the Thai pilot had the kalam not to flee the scene.

[Sphere]

I suppose the SQ pilot committed the henious crime of not switching both his turn indicators on. The TG captain had no way of knowing that SQ was going straight through that intersection. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I got to hand it to you man, turn signals. None of the planes have such much less brake lights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now, are you trying to blame this incident on Airbus or Boeing?

[Rinrada]

The minister will announce the probe results on Monday.

08-55 am London time ..........So who got the ver-dick..blame

[eljeque]

If the Singapore pilot hadn't been in Thailand............

[Rinrada]

If the Singapore pilot hadn't been in Thailand............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am confident that the Thai Minister will give the Correct No Nonsense response to this straightforward incident and put the blame on.....

surely......but it is LOS-TIT and not Saudi Arabia.....innit

[DaveYo]

Monday came and went, still no answer to Singapore's dent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vivaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Laaaaaaaaa Bangkokkkkkkkkkkkk

for jeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssss chrrrrrrrrrrrrrrisssssssssstt

Daveyo