Why Thailand Retains Death Penalty?

[Garry9999]

Many surveys relating to public's attitudes towards the death penalty revealed that it is still necessary to carry out the death penalty in the country. Some major reasons are:

Death Penalty has been a significant tool for tackling high rate of serious crimes

Death Penalty can result in reducing negative effects and violence from victims' retribution

Death Penalty is a special deterrent to prevent heinous criminals that thereby fosters social safety

source http://www.correct.go.th/eng/deathpenalty.htm

Personally, I believe the death penalty should be abolished in all countries. What are the thoughts of other TV members?

[Credo]

The death penalty isn't a good idea, but it's hard to convince people that those who murder and rape children don't deserve it. So it stays.

[cognos]

check the U.S. of A, in the states where they re- introduced the death penalty, the incidences of murder go UP with the death penalty, NOT down

signed: perplexing

[sceadugenga]

Personally I don't know why people complain about it, it gets the unwanted in society off the welfare lists and the people that matter can buy their way out of it.

[Bilqis]

US is the only major western country that still uses the death penalty and compare their serious crime rates to all the others.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I think prisons should become self sufficient so they are no burden to the tax payer. Let the prisoners raise their own food and produce something that generates cash but does not compete with businesses. Not sure what that would be but it seems like they could come up with something. License plates?

[Garry9999]

I think prisons should become self sufficient so they are no burden to the tax payer. Let the prisoners raise their own food and produce something that generates cash but does not compete with businesses. Not sure what that would be but it seems like they could come up with something. License plates?

200 -300 years ago they called them penal colonies.

[lioness]

I expect everyone has their own personal thoughts, myself included.

It has always concerned me that they might not have the right person, consequently putting someone to death who is innocent, there is no going back when you are dead.

[Gerontion]

The death penalty is barbaric and the sooner Thailand does away with it, the better. Of course, the atrocious conditions in Thai prisons also have to be addressed.

[LuckyLew]

For the death penalty

With the technology available today, most

cases for the death penalty are slam dunks.

Why burden the tax payer?

[needforspeed]

The death penalty is barbaric and the sooner Thailand does away with it, the better. Of course, the atrocious conditions in Thai prisons also have to be addressed.

We talking about criminals here, if your daughter was raped and murdered you would be happy he stayed in a jail in Thailand rather than a jail in europe.

Some people need punishment for life, hard labour and only the conditions to survive.

And the moment there hard labour isnt profitable and the criminal cost us tax money we give them the death penalty.

Sounds far to me as he took away a life and given parents "atrocious conditions" for life.

This of course for the worst criminals.

Edited January 31, 2010 by needforspeed

[Paul123456]

I am not opposed to it.

As long as it is used sparingly as it seems to be in Thailand.

And of course I am worried about them getting the wrong person - but also as stated, in Thailand it is mainly applied to "slam dunks" as far as I know.

So it is different to the way it is used in USA or previously in Australia.

Also different - Western countries have developed a culture based around personal freedoms and rights. So in that backdrop, executing an individual is the ultimate 'injustice'.

In Thailand and Asia in general, there is still a culture that values family and community over individual (although it is changing). Within that background removing a harmful individual for the good of society seems to make some sense.

And also in the back of my mind, I have grave concerns that the planet is very much overpopulated. Although killing criminals to fix this problem does seem barbaric - the fact still remains that we will need to learn, at some stage soon, how to reduce the human population. So violent criminals are not putting themselves in a favourable position. How many animals or trees have to die, or how much of the environment has to be destroyed to keep that criminal in prison all their lives? Is it worth it? As the environment becomes more fragile and more precious - the answer to this question surely swings further away from the importance of a violent and destructive human life.

[Paul123456]

The death penalty is barbaric and the sooner Thailand does away with it, the better. Of course, the atrocious conditions in Thai prisons also have to be addressed.

Are Thai prison conditions atrocious?

I am not convinced.

I am sure they could be better.

But have you been to a hill tribe village? Or a Sea Gypsy village? Or soldiers serving their country? These are law abiding people.

Do you know the conditions monks live in? These are the highest people in Thai society. In fact, in what conditions did Buddha live?

So, it is sensible that criminals live in acceptable but not luxurious conditions compared to the people above. They are in jail partially to be punished. (Also to keep society safe, and to aid in their rehabilitation into society as good people).

Also I note that Thailand re-offending rates are much lower than many Western countries.

So, yes, improve the jails - but don't get carried away. There are many others that deserve better conditions. Refugees for a start.

[Gerontion]

We talking about criminals here

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure who the death penalty applied to.

if your daughter was raped and murdered you would be happy he stayed in a jail in Thailand rather than a jail in europe.

I can't be sure what I'd feel and if I can't be sure, you have no absolutely no idea so don't claim that you do. But that's somewhat beside the point. Whatever primal urge for retribution I might feel in some artificially constructed situation is irrelevant. "Because it feels good" is not a reason for killing people. And nor is saving the state a few pennies - and it's not even clear that killing prisoners does save money.

[Gerontion]

have you been to a hill tribe village? Or a Sea Gypsy village?

I don't see any reason why it would have to be an either/or. I agree that minority groups are treated terribly by the Thai state but that doesn't seem to justify treating prisoners badly, too.

Or soldiers serving their country? These are law abiding people

I'm slightly less sympathetic to the plight of soldiers - and the extent to which Thai soldiers serve their country rather than a particular elite is pretty questionable - but I don't think their conditions are comparable to those of prisoners. But perhaps I'm wrong and if I am, that would be mark against the conditions of soldiers, not for the mis-treatment of prisoners.

Do you know the conditions monks live in?

That's rather different, isn't it. The point of being a monk is precisely to free oneself of material possessions.

Also I note that Thailand re-offending rates are much lower than many Western countries.

Are they? I've never seen any statistics on that and it's certainly possible but given how farcical the Thai legal system is, anything's possible. Any legal system which parades the accused on prime-time TV re-enacting crimes for which they've yet to be found guilty, or spells out yaa baa with speed pills in front of some poor fuc_ker who's only been accused of dealing has to be considered pretty questionable. Fair trial? Due process? In a system where the poor have pretty much fuc_k all chance and the rich can do as they please - I exaggerate, but only somewhat - killing prisoners doesn't seem like a good idea.

[Mosha]

People who want to abolish the death penalty can pay for the scum bags upkeep.

The people who want to keep it pay for the bullets.

The accused families pay for the appeals.

[Garry9999]

Also different - Western countries have developed a culture based around personal freedoms and rights. So in that backdrop, executing an individual is the ultimate 'injustice'.

In Thailand and Asia in general, there is still a culture that values family and community over individual (although it is changing). Within that background removing a harmful individual for the good of society seems to make some sense.

But if a harmful individual is incarcerated, they are no longer a threat to society, therefore there is no need to execute them.

[needforspeed]

We talking about criminals here

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure who the death penalty applied to.

if your daughter was raped and murdered you would be happy he stayed in a jail in Thailand rather than a jail in europe.

I can't be sure what I'd feel and if I can't be sure, you have no absolutely no idea so don't claim that you do. But that's somewhat beside the point. Whatever primal urge for retribution I might feel in some artificially constructed situation is irrelevant. "Because it feels good" is not a reason for killing people. And nor is saving the state a few pennies - and it's not even clear that killing prisoners does save money.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure who the death penalty applied to.

Funny

I can't be sure what I'd feel and if I can't be sure, you have no absolutely no idea so don't claim that you do

Wrong answer i can claim that i know all about feelings regarding victums.

and it's not even clear that killing prisoners does save money.

In the us 1 day jail costs 246 us dollar in europe this is avarage 130 Euro's.

The only extra costs for criminals facing dead sentence (only in a few states in the US)are the costs of investigation, trial appeals and incarceration.

[Garry9999]

And also in the back of my mind, I have grave concerns that the planet is very much overpopulated. Although killing criminals to fix this problem does seem barbaric - the fact still remains that we will need to learn, at some stage soon, how to reduce the human population. So violent criminals are not putting themselves in a favourable position. How many animals or trees have to die, or how much of the environment has to be destroyed to keep that criminal in prison all their lives? Is it worth it? As the environment becomes more fragile and more precious - the answer to this question surely swings further away from the importance of a violent and destructive human life.

Maybe education and contraception would be better way to control population than executing the bad people?

[Gerontion]

I can't be sure what I'd feel and if I can't be sure, you have no absolutely no idea so don't claim that you do

Wrong answer i can claim that i know all about feelings regarding victums.

I find the hot weather and high humidity interferes with my telepathic foresight. How do you get around this problem?

[Paul123456]

And also in the back of my mind, I have grave concerns that the planet is very much overpopulated. Although killing criminals to fix this problem does seem barbaric - the fact still remains that we will need to learn, at some stage soon, how to reduce the human population. So violent criminals are not putting themselves in a favourable position. How many animals or trees have to die, or how much of the environment has to be destroyed to keep that criminal in prison all their lives? Is it worth it? As the environment becomes more fragile and more precious - the answer to this question surely swings further away from the importance of a violent and destructive human life.

Maybe education and contraception would be better way to control population than executing the bad people?

It certainly would be.

I am not advocating killing criminals to reduce the population - that does sound horrific. But just noting the strength of the 'human life is sacred' feeling may be reduced if the population continues to increase and the environmental problems that people cause continue to increase. No particular point to my statement other than to note that it exists in the back of my head and see what others say. I like your comment on it.

Also, your comment that keeping destructive people in jail solves the society vs individual thing - valid point.

Another point for this discussion - we are all going to die. So does it really matter that we pause the death of a few violent people a few decades, whilst keeping them confined in a prison - is it really that great a victory?

[GuestHouse]

An irreversible punishment handed out by a legal system that nobody believes is not corrupted.

The broken and corrupt Thai legal system is in and of itself the best argument against the death penalty.

Arguments on the grounds 'What if it was your child that was the victim' are emotive and being emotive ignore the whole point that executing an innocent person is as much a crime as murder.

Killing the wrong suspect is not the answer to addressing the needs of victims and their families.

[Paul123456]

The system won't allow me to reply to Gerontion with that number of quotes. But here is my thoughts - you'll have to scroll back and forward to her post to see what I am replying to:

* I don't agree that the groups are treated terribly by the Thai state. There is certainly room for improvement, but also it is a fact of life on this planet for most people that life is difficult.

* I'm actually quite offended by your comments here. To think a young 18 year old soldier who goes to the South to protect villagers against terrorists or who rushes into a flooded area to help fellow Thais deserves no sympathy. Bizarre. The conditions the soldiers live in, in the South? Every day they fear for their lives whilst trying to protect others. It is not about mis-treating prisoners - it is about giving them their fair share. And their fair share is small.

* No, not different. The point of being a prisoner is to be freed of material comforts that you have voided your right to. And to gain a better attitude - once again assisted by the absence of luxury. And you seem to be missing a rather huge point - Thai society is hierarchical. Monks are the very top. Prisoners are the very bottom. To give the prisoners better conditions than the representatives of Buddha is .....?

* I suppose next you'll try to tell me that Western legal conditions are better?

Lets do a little experiment.

You put a white uni educated guy in a suit and get him to steal $10 million from people.

You get an aboriginal boy to steal a biscuit

What is the outcome?

The aboriginal goes to jail for 2 years, the white guy is let off.

Perhaps the Western legal systems are better - but they are a loooong way from perfect

[AugustineB]

For some the Death penalty is the easy way out and serves nobody. If someone has done something that evil they should work to pay their debt. Reparation is the way to go. Also if new evidence comes to light and turns out they are innocent - they are not dead.

[Paul123456]

Time for me to stop playing about on here and do some work. Thanks for the conversation - it is an interesting topic.

One last point - this one against the death penalty and for the importance of saving life:

What if that criminal that was going to be killed, can rehabilitate and become a positive member of society? What if s/he can become a parent and bring up good kids? Or a community leader? Or someone that teaches other violent youth about the wrongs of that way of life? ....

What if....

[Briggsy]

This forum is about Thailand. Almost all East Asian and South East Asian countries retain and use the death penalty. It is an accepted part of the culture in these parts. There's little point trying to view Thailand and surrounding countries through a Western lens. You will get a distorted unclear picture.

[tomahawk]

As a retired prison guard, I am defitinitely in favor of death penalty. I never met one who wasn't. I wonder how people who oppose it would feel about death penalty if it was their family who was murdered. Actually, if someone killed or raped someone in my family, they would receive death penalty anyway if I found them first, and I would deal with the consequences. One thing is certain, whether or not death penalty is a deterrent is debatable, but one thing is certain. The killer who gets executed will definitely be deterred. As far as life in prison, I worked with female prison guard who was killed by this animal in prison who was doing life for killing several people before.

Also, for the person who say to compare crime rate in US with other countries and this will prove capital punishment doesn't work. Apparently he hasn't really done this himself. Just spouting the usual propaganda, as there are many countries with higher crime rate than the US.

However, even though I support death penalty, even I do not think it should be doen for ecology to save animals and trees.

[Gerontion]

you'll have to scroll back and forward to her post to see what I am replying to

Always interesting to see the assumptions people make about gender.

Hill tribes; They're routinely discriminated against by the state. The fact that others are treated badly is no justification.

Soldiers: The south is a complex situation but it's certainly the case that human right's abuses have been carried out by the military, who are essentially operating as an occupying army. More generally, the army has been no friend of democracy in Thailand and as such, it can't claim to be acting - or acting solely - in the nation's interests. The most recent coup was clearly carried out for the benefit of a social and economic elite and hence my comment about 'less (not no) sympathy'.

Prisoners: The reasons for monks not having possessions and prisoners having their freedoms curtailed are completely different and they have relationship to each other, in Thailand or elsewhere. You're not so much barking up the wrong tree as in totally the wrong forest and I find it very hard to imagine this being a consideration when Thais make arguments against penal reform.

Western judicial system: I don't understand your point. Yes, all western judicial systems are racist. Yes, this is bad. Yes, they're - as far as I can tell - better than the Thai system. Yes, they're not perfect. How does this affect the morality of Thailand killing prisoners? Surely the fact that the Thai legal system is this bad means that capital punishment is less justified than it is in European countries - or, as in your example, Australia - where it doesn't exist exactly because it's not justified.

[Gerontion]

This forum is about Thailand. Almost all East Asian and South East Asian countries retain and use the death penalty. It is an accepted part of the culture in these parts. There's little point trying to view Thailand and surrounding countries through a Western lens. You will get a distorted unclear picture.

This is a tempting view but a corollary of it is that you have to be remain silent about everything. What about 'honour killings'? That's at least as deep a part of the culture so presumably that's fine too. What about all persecution based on race, gender and sexuality? If killing people is OK because 'it's their culture' then killing people is OK because 'it's their culture' for whatever reason they happen to be killed - assuming it's an equally accepted part of the culture. And that's not something which many people want to agree with. And if you back up this argument with appeals to other arguments (to retribution, to prevention, etc) then you also let in arguments against the culture argument (the existence of universal rights to life, for example).

[ukrules]

I have a problem with the thought that a government would be so arrogant to presume that it owns somebody's life.