Cambodian Government Lambast Us Internet Giant Google

[Jirapa]

In the grand scheme of things, is it REALLY that important?

It's wrong! It's like putting a line halfway through Notre Dame in Paris and calling anything to the North the United Kingdom. I'm sure their border lines on their Israel maps clearly and acurately define the Palestinian regions so why shouldn't Cambodia be pissed off. Apologise then fix it! Might not be REALLY important to you as it's not to me but people have died fighting over that border so it means a lot to them as a people.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Jirapa

[Cent]

I realize Thais have a different view on this dispute...BUT, amazing how both sides neglected the ancient site until the UN declared it as a UNISCO sight I must mention (correct me if I am wrong) that a couple years ago the UN threatened to pull funds out of the historic UNESCO Ayuthaya sight because the Thai government was not taking care of the historical ruins ... So if Thailand cannot take care of their UNISCO Ayuthaya site, how can they take care of Phanom Rung?

I beg to differ. Over the past 15 years or so I have been to Khao Phra Vihan about a dozen times with friends who were visiting the area. When the temple was under control of the Thais there was much much more care and maintenance being done to upkeep the ruins. Once the Cambodians took control of and care of the temple area it has seriously gone to hel_l, with little if any maintenance being done. The Cambos have allowed lots of grimy and dirty makeshift stalls to be installed along the stairs to the top (many selling dubious wares and stuffed taxidermed animals-some of which I think are protected species), underage prostitutes are up there offering sex in the bushes and stones along the walkways and stairs to any lone male tourists they see, and the whole area has seriously deteriorated in the past few years since the Cambodians took control. The Cambodians running the place take the entrance fee money and pocket it and use none of the income to clean and maintain the area now under their control from what I have seen. Give it back to the Thais who at least seem to have some pride in keeping the place clean and safe for the tourists who want to visit this historical site. They could have done more, certainly, but compared to the Cambodians they did a thousand percent better at it.

Also, Phanom Rung is one of the nicest and best well kept of all the ruins in Isaan Thailand. It is even better maintained now than it was a decade or more ago. It is a 'must see' for those interested in these ruins of the Isaan area, and a very nice place to visit. The Thais seem to realize that these places are money makers and historically interesting to many tourists coming here, and they keep Khao Phanom Rung in very good repair. There is more they could do and things I would want them to add, but all in all they take much better care of these sites than the Cambodians would ever do, in my opinion.

I can't comment on Ayuthaya as it has been at least a decade since I have been there.

Cent

Edited February 6, 2010 by Cent

[Jirapa]

I realize Thais have a different view on this dispute...BUT, amazing how both sides neglected the ancient site until the UN declared it as a UNISCO sight I must mention (correct me if I am wrong) that a couple years ago the UN threatened to pull funds out of the historic UNESCO Ayuthaya sight because the Thai government was not taking care of the historical ruins ... So if Thailand cannot take care of their UNISCO Ayuthaya site, how can they take care of Phanom Rung?

I beg to differ. Over the past 15 years or so I have been to Khao Phra Vihan about a dozen times with friends who were visiting the area. When the temple was under control of the Thais there was much much more care and maintenance being done to upkeep the ruins. Once the Cambodians took control of and care of the temple area it has seriously gone to hel_l, with little if any maintenance being done. The Cambos have allowed lots of grimy and dirty makeshift stalls to be installed along the stairs to the top (many selling dubious wares and stuffed taxidermed animals-some of which I think are protected species), underage prostitutes are up there offering sex in the bushes and stones along the walkways and stairs to any lone male tourists they see, and the whole area has seriously deteriorated in the past few years since the Cambodians took control. The Cambodians running the place take the entrance fee money and pocket it and use none of the income to clean and maintain the area now under their control from what I have seen. Give it back to the Thais who at least seem to have some pride in keeping the place clean and safe for the tourists who want to visit this historical site. They could have done more, certainly, but compared to the Cambodians they did a thousand percent better at it.

Also, Phanom Rung is one of the nicest and best well kept of all the ruins in Isaan Thailand. It is even better maintained now than it was a decade or more ago. It is a 'must see' for those interested in these ruins of the Isaan area, and a very nice place to visit. The Thais seem to realize that these places are money makers and historically interesting to many tourists coming here, and they keep Khao Phanom Rung in very good repair. There is more they could do and things I would want them to add, but all in all they take much better care of these sites than the Cambodians would ever do, in my opinion.

I can't comment on Ayuthaya as it has been at least a decade since I have been there.

Cent

It belongs to Cambodia so if they want to let it go to pot so be it. Who are you to say give it to Thailand? These things aren't taken lightly and the fact that the world recognises it as Cambodia will have been based on historical documents not soap and water nor your blinkered opinion. Why not just give it to any country in western Europe and it'll be spotless with a Starbucks, patisserie, and a gift shop.

If your so concerned ask for it to be made a world heritage site as that's how improvements are made. Give it to Thailand....Pwahhhh!

[jbhh]

Why should Google respond? Surely, if the International Courts have not ruled on the border, "cutting it in half" is the fairest thing. Maybe Thailand should ask for "land rent money" from Cambodia, for half of the Temple......

Unbelievable! International Courts have not ruled but you have decided it is fair "cutting in half". What do we need International Courts for? We have your infinite wisdom. What is your opinion on the latest bank robberies? Please tell us what is fair! We're all waiting for the oracle to speak.

don't feed the trolls...

Edited February 6, 2010 by jbhh

[toptuan]

Why should Google respond? Surely, if the International Courts have not ruled on the border, "cutting it in half" is the fairest thing. Maybe Thailand should ask for "land rent money" from Cambodia, for half of the Temple......

International court already ruled on it long ago; and gave the temple back to Cambodia (as it is a Cambodian temple). This seems like very simple logic, but the clowns in the Apishit admin don't want to admit the truth. I think the article misnames them as Thai "nationalists". Rather, it should be renamed "fascists".

You are partially correct. Yes, the courts ruled on it in 1962, but left the actual demarcation line OUTSIDE the temple a little vague. Not even Thailand (read: Abhisit administration) is disputing the ownership of the temple itself. The issue is over 4.6 sq km of "buffer" area between the temple and Thailand. It's actually a pitiful-looking area of scrub land and burnt rock. The clearest map I've seen, to-date, is the one at this TV thread. Absolutely not worth fighting over, but it's a convenient whipping-boy for Thai Nationalists who want to keep the public's focus away from Thailand's real problems.

[burhou]

Looking at the aerial photo in the OP link, my first reaction was - notice how verdant and complete is the forest on the Cambodian side, and how much cleared land and degraded forest there is on the Thai side. Then I also noticed that the only "development" of any type is on the Thai side (Highway 221 and the group of buildings next to it at the north end of the temple-line)

Hate to say it, but that situation alone puts me on the Khmer's side of the argument - give them all the disputed land and let it return to healthy forest, with just the temple grounds as open land. I visited several sites of similar location in Central America, deep in the jungle, and the contrast it causes to be 100% surrounded by forest is stunningly beautiful and adds to the awe and mystique of such ancient monuments, making them far more worthy of a visit.

If Thailand does the same to Preah Vihear as they have done to Ayutthaya, Phimai, Sukhothai, Wieng Kum Kam et al, then it'll simply become a concrete-patched Disney-park mess.

Send in the UNESCO archaeologists, restorers, troops, and border demarkers I say. Make it set in stone (pillars) once and for all.

Jataka Tales (Past Lives of the Buddha). Re: Mahajanaka Jataka.

'One day King Mahajanaka was riding through his kingdom and observed two mango trees. The one that had been full of mangoes was broken and torn by the people who had come to pick the fruit while the other, though barren, stood green and whole. Thus he came to understand that possessions bring only sorrow....'. Is Thailand a mainly Buddhist country?

[toptuan]

I realize Thais have a different view on this dispute...BUT, amazing how both sides neglected the ancient site until the UN declared it as a UNISCO sight I must mention (correct me if I am wrong) that a couple years ago the UN threatened to pull funds out of the historic UNESCO Ayuthaya sight because the Thai government was not taking care of the historical ruins ... So if Thailand cannot take care of their UNISCO Ayuthaya site, how can they take care of Phanom Rung?

I beg to differ. Over the past 15 years or so I have been to Khao Phra Vihan about a dozen times with friends who were visiting the area. When the temple was under control of the Thais there was much much more care and maintenance being done to upkeep the ruins. Once the Cambodians took control...

If you've been there only over the past 15 years, you have never seen Khao Phra Vihan under the control of the Thais. If you were there 48 years ago, then your observation would be a bit more believable.

Also, Phanom Rung is one of the nicest and best well kept of all the ruins in Isaan Thailand. It is even better maintained now than it was a decade or more ago...they keep Khao Phanom Rung in very good repair.

Phanom Rung is the "Disneyland" of temple ruins. They don't "keep" and "maintain" the ruins, they try to rebuild and restore it to its former glory--something that any archeologist would shudder at. They might as well put a Mickey Mouse statue on top of the middle prang.

Before the current "spat" I got so sick of visiting Khao Phra Vihear with Thai friends who were constantly exclaiming..."Now if WE owned this, we would rebuild this like so, and put that there, and build a visitor center there, set up food vendors and restrooms over there, and....etc., etc." Quickly following those insights from their superior culture, they continue by slamming Cambodia's treatment of the area (which mostly leaves it in it's naturally ruined state.)

Most serious archeologists and historians would rather visit and study the ruins in their natural state to be able to independently verify and extrapolate what the original state may have been. The Thai method is to "force it" through the eyes of some Thai academic, and you get a one-sided slanted view of the historical structure. Most importantly, you also get the tourist dollar flowing; history and accuracy be damned. This approach may appeal to the casual visitor and the "unwashed tourist masses" but it's a travesty to the field of archeology and ancient history. Having trained and done archeology work in the Middle East, I get much more out of visiting the true-to-life and authentic ruins in Cambodia, however downtrodden they may look to a tourist who doesn't mind having their view of history shaded with someone else's tinted spectacles who was born 1,000 years later.

Edited February 6, 2010 by toptuan

[asean]

Hunsen calling accusing Google of 'is devoid of truth and reality and professionally irresponsible, if not pretentious". hah hah and bloody hah!!

Hunsen "paying respects to Cambodians and their culture" oh please somebody stop it this is killing me!

Mr Hunsen no matter what you will always go down in history like Mugabe, as a despot dictator of a third world country whose GDP (due to your handling) is less than Google's and that includes the billions in foreing aid income.

[yabaaaa]

Thailand and Cambodia like bloody children. Why dont they raze the temple to the ground and be done with it!!

[anselpixel]

I assume this is the Google system which yesterday gave me directions to a wine shop on Chang Klan from a guest house off Thapae. My route ended in a lake somewhere near Maerim. The destination was clearly marked in the middle of the lake. A certain consistency there.

[ManilaLover]

Hehehe.... if they not shut up Google will BUY Cambodia

[ratcatcher]

It belongs to Cambodia so if they want to let it go to pot so be it. Who are you to say give it to Thailand? These things aren't taken lightly and the fact that the world recognises it as Cambodia will have been based on historical documents not soap and water nor your blinkered opinion. Why not just give it to any country in western Europe and it'll be spotless with a Starbucks, patisserie, and a gift shop.

If your so concerned ask for it to be made a world heritage site as that's how improvements are made. Give it to Thailand....Pwahhhh!

It already went to Pot....Pol Pot under the Khmer Rouge.

Some good points though, who needs a sanitized, commercialized, trendy site for well heeled tourists to sit and sip lattes?

Better to help the Khmers take care of it better than they have.

Edited February 6, 2010 by ratcatcher

[stingray]

Nothing more important in cambodia, than fighting about some old broken temple ruines?

[yabaaaa]

The Google Earthers cant even leave their stupid fighting comments off Google Earth either, about 50 comments on "this belong Thailand" no no "A long time ago this belong Cambodia" blah blah blah.

[toptuan]

I assume this is the Google system which yesterday gave me directions to a wine shop on Chang Klan from a guest house off Thapae. My route ended in a lake somewhere near Maerim. The destination was clearly marked in the middle of the lake. A certain consistency there.

Yes, it's the same Google system. More than a month ago, I did notice the Google map slicing a demarcation line right through the middle of the primary temple ruins which clearly are owned by Cambodia (and which point is not contested by Thailand.). Somebody clearly goofed up with their longitude & latitude. Shame on Google for not getting 100% of a quadrillion global positioning points right on the money! I knew it would come back to bite 'em in the end. By the way, the satellite map to my own duplex shows a dirt road (over 5 years ago) rather than our current nice paved road. I'm going through the Thai Ministry of Historical Landmarks on this one! Get ready for another fiery letter, Google Maps!

Edited February 6, 2010 by toptuan

[daboyz1]

Thailand and Cambodia like bloody children. Why dont they raze the temple to the ground and be done with it!!

Exactly. Drop some bombs and let them fight over something else. The place isn't even accessible from Cambodia anyway. Hopefully Thaksin will be there when the 500 pounders fall.

[toptuan]

Thailand and Cambodia like bloody children. Why dont they raze the temple to the ground and be done with it!!

Exactly. Drop some bombs and let them fight over something else. The place isn't even accessible from Cambodia anyway. Hopefully Thaksin will be there when the 500 pounders fall.

Two years ago, Cambodia turned a hikers-only and dirt-bikers-only steep track into a dirt-and-gravel road accessible by 4x4's, most motorbikes, and other vehicles with high clearance--opening up the area considerably better to Cambodians and tourists from "the other side." This is what Thailand is so upset about. Formerly 95% of Khao Phra Vihan's tourists were Thai. The improvement of access from the Cambodian side started to change the ratio of visitors to favor Cambodians and western/Asian tourists from the other side. This visibly upset the Thai who feel they have a historical right to feel like they own the place, and to profit from it. For the locals and provincial government, it's mostly about money. For the Thai national government, it's mostly about deflecting the public's focus off of Thailand's real problems.

Edited February 6, 2010 by toptuan

[Bottlerocket]

Why should Google respond? Surely, if the International Courts have not ruled on the border, "cutting it in half" is the fairest thing. Maybe Thailand should ask for "land rent money" from Cambodia, for half of the Temple......

The International Court HAVE ruled on the border in 1962 and awarded to Cambodia. It says so right in the article. The Thais had 10 years to appeal and they didn't seem to to think it was that important so the case lapsed. Now they've changed their minds and expert the world to do backflips for them. THEY LOST. PERIOD. It belongs to Cambodia.

[George4]

I wouldn't worry about this as in about a week the brains of Thailand will solve this. Expect a new thread soon:- Thai governemnt in an emergency meeting have decided to be fair they will take the land and let the Cambodians keep the temple.

[klauskunkel]

Having seen other examples of letters written by Cambodian government officials in the local papers I'm not surprised Google hasn't bothered to respond. The quoted text of this letter isn't a lot better:

...devoid of truth and reality and professionally irresponsible, if not pretentious...

Pretentious??? Until these so called diplomats can start communicating in an adult manner the whole world will either ignore them or laugh at them.

I assume the Cambodian government used Google Translate to come up with this sentence...

[daboyz1]

Thailand and Cambodia like bloody children. Why dont they raze the temple to the ground and be done with it!!

Exactly. Drop some bombs and let them fight over something else. The place isn't even accessible from Cambodia anyway. Hopefully Thaksin will be there when the 500 pounders fall.

Two years ago, Cambodia turned a hikers-only and dirt-bikers-only steep track into a dirt-and-gravel road accessible by 4x4's, most motorbikes, and other vehicles with high clearance--opening up the area considerably better to Cambodians and tourists from "the other side." This is what Thailand is so upset about. Formerly 95% of Khao Phra Vihan's tourists were Thai. The improvement of access from the Cambodian side started to change the ratio of visitors to favor Cambodians and western/Asian tourists from the other side. This visibly upset the Thai who feel they have a historical right to feel like they own the place, and to profit from it. For the locals and provincial government, it's mostly about money. For the Thai national government, it's mostly about deflecting the public's focus off of Thailand's real problems.

Wasn't aware of that. I haven't been around since 2006. Thanks for the update.

The timing seems suspect. If it took them since 1962 to improve this place granted they had some issues in the 70s. I just can't help but think Mr. T is somehow behind this conflict. Just seems like something he would do.

90% of the people I work with are from India, and they wonder why two Buddhist countries are fighting over a Hindu temple. I want to say money, and I suspect you are right. I just shake my head and say I don't know.

[Samuian]

will be soon no issue anymore, gthe entire area will be flooded due through climate changes!

[Briggsy]

Most people here are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

Consider who is the audience for this. Firstly you have the Cambodian populace. When not ranting about the "Yuan pigs" (The Vietnamese) they are raving about Thai land grabs of their precious Cambodian soil. Any anti-Vietnamese or anti-Thai comments go down well with ordinary Cambodians and detract from internal problems and conflicts.

Secondly, the Cambodian government may want to use the issue to remind the Thais who won the 1962 ruling.

[Navalator]

Maybe both countries will realize they are both idiots arguing over a shared history and come to their senses; dogging goggle earth, come on.

There is more to this matter than meets the eye. Perhaps the Cambodian Prime Minister is trying to incite the two countries into going to war thus permitting Thaksin to make his move to mobilize his "Red Army" while the regular army is involved at the border, and march on Bangkok to abolish the current government. Be prepared for civil war shortly followed by a Thaksin dictatorship.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Navalator

[daboyz1]

Most people here are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

Consider who is the audience for this. Firstly you have the Cambodian populace. When not ranting about the "Yuan pigs" (The Vietnamese) they are raving about Thai land grabs of their precious Cambodian soil. Any anti-Vietnamese or anti-Thai comments go down well with ordinary Cambodians and detract from internal problems and conflicts.

Secondly, the Cambodian government may want to use the issue to remind the Thais who won the 1962 ruling.

I guess if you look at from outside Thailand looking in. I will guarantee you inside Thailand this is a "hot button" issue that either side will try to use to their advantage. Hun Sen has made it very clear he will do everything he can to put a stick in Abhishit's eye.

For the sake of argument. What if Thaksin comes back and is PM again? He would be in a spot. Does he relinquish any rights to the land around the temple? I think he has painted himself in a corner on this. I don't see how he can win on this issue.

[daboyz1]

Maybe both countries will realize they are both idiots arguing over a shared history and come to their senses; dogging goggle earth, come on.

There is more to this matter than meets the eye. Perhaps the Cambodian Prime Minister is trying to incite the two countries into going to war thus permitting Thaksin to make his move to mobilize his "Red Army" while the regular army is involved at the border, and march on Bangkok to abolish the current government. Be prepared for civil war shortly followed by a Thaksin dictatorship.

There's not going to be any civil war. Everyday that goes by Thaksin looks more and more like someone that wants his money back. He has done a good job of putting that out there. Purposefully or not.

[misterjag]

I don't suppose it's any coincidence that the Chinese are Cambodia's greatest benefactor and they're currently locking horns with Google?

[Ponbkk]

 Having experience in mapping I would say that (what I just looked and saw on Google Maps) a 10-15 meter "error" is quite good, especially in this area. The location data and boundary data are probably from slightly different sources. Nothing to be concerned of. 

I take taht back. Yes, on the "Google MAP" the Preah Vihar is placed above the boundary (I had mistakenly thought it should be ON the boundary).

I downloaded Google Earth for the first time. I got out the GPS and took a coordinate at the pool. The GPS coordinate and Google Earth coordinate for the pool deck were spot on. SCARY! 

I went to Preah Vihar on Google Earth and eyeballed a interpretation between the Google Earth data and a schematic diagram of the temple in the Wikipedia. If any part of the temple is in Thailand on Google Earth it is minor. The Google Earth map is as good as one can expect. However, I suspect the scale bar on the Wikipedia schematic.

A lot of the waypoints on Google Earth are way off. For instance a Cambodia border station is placed well inside Thailand, and more.

[tommybkk]

crazy

[Krungbin]

Looking at the aerial photo in the OP link, my first reaction was - notice how verdant and complete is the forest on the Cambodian side, and how much cleared land and degraded forest there is on the Thai side. Then I also noticed that the only "development" of any type is on the Thai side (Highway 221 and the group of buildings next to it at the north end of the temple-line)

Hate to say it, but that situation alone puts me on the Khmer's side of the argument - give them all the disputed land and let it return to healthy forest, with just the temple grounds as open land. I visited several sites of similar location in Central America, deep in the jungle, and the contrast it causes to be 100% surrounded by forest is stunningly beautiful and adds to the awe and mystique of such ancient monuments, making them far more worthy of a visit.

If Thailand does the same to Preah Vihear as they have done to Ayutthaya, Phimai, Sukhothai, Wieng Kum Kam et al, then it'll simply become a concrete-patched Disney-park mess.

Send in the UNESCO archaeologists, restorers, troops, and border demarkers I say. Make it set in stone (pillars) once and for all.

Your comment shows that you, very obviously, never went to the site...

And...if the Thais were given the chance to do the same they have done at Phanom Rung, well Phra Vihan would definitively look far much better than what it looks like now, "taken care" of by the Khmer's...