Should A Religion/philosophy Evolve Over Time?

[fabianfred]

They are entitled to their opinions and I mine....

as long as they do not try thrusting their religion down my throat...and I will not try and convert them.

They might be of the opinion that i am damned and will go to hel_l for not accepting their god.....and i believe that their ignorance of the truth will cause them to remain stuck in the prison of Samsara for a long time......

By practice our belief or understanding becomes changed into knowledge.....certain knowledge...or our beliefs are proven to us.....

Do you have any concept of how many born-again-Christians say exactly the same thing?

[fabianfred]

Monks are not allowed to claim that they have attained to any of the four Noble states...upon risk of being disrobed...

but lay-followers can often deduce by the actions and teachings...whilst following the same path...how far advanced their teacher has got.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Monks are not allowed to claim that they have attained to any of the four Noble states...upon risk of being disrobed...

but lay-followers can often deduce by the actions and teachings...whilst following the same path...how far advanced their teacher has got.

...can often deduce... what illusion - and who cares anyway? not our business to sit here 'deducing' where someone has got on the pathway - waste of time and effort and illusiory clap-trap (with respect etc.) - smacks of Guru worship to me - this teacher is that level this teacher is this level... irrelevant and personal to that person only (and they will not know either).

[fabianfred]

A teacher who has reached where we are trying get to is more useful than one who has not.

[phetaroi]

A teacher who has reached where we are trying get to is more useful than one who has not.

Fred, you're absolutely correct. I do understand the other poster's points, although I would say them with more respect.

It does bother me a bit when I go to a temple and see a gilded statue of a monk. I can see why someone might think of this as "Guru worship", even though we aren't even supposed to "worship" Buddha.

Having said that, there's certainly nothing wrong with having a spiritual adviser, and naturally that person should be someone we trust. I guess the "caveat emptor" is that many people throughout history -- including right here in Thailand -- have placed that kind of trust in spiritual advisers that have letter been greatly discredited. And once again, when it comes to spiritual matters, none of us knows where a particular spiritual adviser is on their own road...we only know what they tell us.

I think you have thought that I have been criticizing you, and that's not really my intent. It's just that I think -- whether it's you or me -- that's there's a world of difference between what a person thinks/believes versus what they know.

[ChiangMaiFun]

A teacher who has reached where we are trying get to is more useful than one who has not.

But we don't know that... this is my point (with tons of respect etc.). Anyone who has achieved any 'status' would do as HH the Dalai Lama does and say 'I am a humble monk' - no one goes around deducing his status (maybe partly because it's obvious).

But I do wince when people say this or that person has achieved this or that 'grade' - we/they don't know - it isn't a game of corporate career laddership - where we battle for 'status' and 'rank' the Universe doesn't work like that - but, I agree, it is in human nature to 'follow' and yes, of course, there are those with much to teach and I have the utmost respect for them - from many disciplines - but let's not 'tag' them?

[Britannia]

The Dhamma is unchanging because it is the truth...the real Ultimate Truth (of which there can only be one)....natural laws which apply equally to all beings...whatever religion the profess ..... whether they believe in the Dhamma or not..understand it or not.

But whilst beings are still stuck in Samsara they are subject to impermanence....so are the teachings about the Dhamma.

This present Buddha's Dhamma teachings are predicted to last for five thousand years after his passing to parinirvana. So they are getting gradually altered and corrupted and misunderstood and misinterpreted...and when the end is near one will have to climb a mountain to find the last guy in a cave who knows the true dhamma since all that will be left are teachings of the false dhamma.

Then there follows a long period of darkness, ignorance of the truth, until the next buddha comes and rediscovers the lost dhamma and teaches it again.

This smacks of religious faith, not a provable truth.

very little in matters spiritual is provable....... apart from to ourselves. If I see my past lives during meditation then my belief in rebirth would probably become unshakable...it would change from belief to certain knowledge, but I couldn't show these proofs to anyone else...

paccatam veditabo vinyuhiti ..... to be know only by ourselves

and you will always get the lazy ones who sit back and will not do the practice for themselves but taunt you with..."well I don't believe you...you prove it to me..."

if they are too lazy to get up and practice then they are condemning themselves to being stuck in Samsara for a very long time....

Belief has no value, only knowledge has value, Knowledge comes from within and is never subject to change, belief is like the wind and can change to any direction. The problem with many religions are they are a case of the blind leading the blind, thus,those that ask you to believe. God or Gods no God or no Gods all is one, therefore no dualism only self united with God, the universe, all others all beings. When you see things as separate, then the ego blinds you from knowledge (Teachings from Yoga or Hinduism) not so unlike that of the Buddha

[camerata]

no one goes around deducing his status (maybe partly because it's obvious).

But I do wince when people say this or that person has achieved this or that 'grade' - we/they don't know

This is not the whole story. Someone who attains arahantship or some other level obviously wants to explain to fellow practitioners how they did it and how they overcame the obstacles. This means it's inevitable that they will tell their fellow monastics. This is allowable in some circumstances according to the Vinaya: A bhikkhu may reveal his attainments "to his preceptor or to a fellow bhikkhu who does a similar practice."

However, there is nothing in the Vinaya that prevents the one who was told from telling anyone else. This is how biographies or arahants get written and we come to know about them. See for example, the biography of Ajahn Man, written by Ajahn Maha Boowa.

[phetaroi]

Belief has no value, only knowledge has value, Knowledge comes from within and is never subject to change, belief is like the wind and can change to any direction. The problem with many religions are they are a case of the blind leading the blind, thus,those that ask you to believe. God or Gods no God or no Gods all is one, therefore no dualism only self united with God, the universe, all others all beings. When you see things as separate, then the ego blinds you from knowledge (Teachings from Yoga or Hinduism) not so unlike that of the Buddha

That's certainly a wonderful statement of your beliefs.

[ChiangMaiFun]

no one goes around deducing his status (maybe partly because it's obvious).

But I do wince when people say this or that person has achieved this or that 'grade' - we/they don't know

This is not the whole story. Someone who attains arahantship or some other level obviously wants to explain to fellow practitioners how they did it and how they overcame the obstacles. This means it's inevitable that they will tell their fellow monastics. This is allowable in some circumstances according to the Vinaya: A bhikkhu may reveal his attainments "to his preceptor or to a fellow bhikkhu who does a similar practice."

However, there is nothing in the Vinaya that prevents the one who was told from telling anyone else. This is how biographies or arahants get written and we come to know about them. See for example, the biography of Ajahn Man, written by Ajahn Maha Boowa.

Hi, I wasn't challenging their right to teach - thank goodness they do! nor their abilities nor their status even (which I value and respect most highly).

I only made comment on the 'pronouncement or advertisement' of such status (teaching doesn't fall into this latter comment - although I'm sure they would never refer to themselves as great teachers - which they are of course).

I'm a little uncomfortable with idolising and/or 'gilding' certain individuals - the humble non-ostentatious monk has far more appeal to me.