Thailand Nuclear Power Sites To Be Named In May

[brahmburgers]

I've got a friend that does control systems in nuclear plants for Siemens and he's been sent on some revamping projects in old Soviet Satellite countries and says that's the scariest job he ever has to do.

Without a doubt, when those nuclear plants were built in the USSR, any doubters were told, "Don't worry about a thing. These new plants are state of the art. There may have been problems in earlier nuclear plants, but we've made improvements, so they're now really very safe."

.......the same stuff that's being told to us with the proposed nuclear plants for Thailand.

Edited March 23, 2010 by brahmburgers

[thaihome]

Q: has there ever been a large scale, Thai government funded project which was not tainted by corruption?

Before and shortly after PTT was partially privatized, over a period of 15 years, 3 major gas pipelines from the Gulf of Thailand and associated offshore and onshore facilities were built at a cost some 5 billion dollars.

Note: This excludes the Yadana pipeline from Myanmar as that was not built by PTT, even though they do purchase the gas.

So, yes, there have been major projects built in Thailand without being tainted by corruption.

TH

[Soutpeel]

Q: has there ever been a large scale, Thai government funded project which was not tainted by corruption?

Before and shortly after PTT was partially privatized, over a period of 15 years, 3 major gas pipelines from the Gulf of Thailand and associated offshore and onshore facilities were built at a cost some 5 billion dollars.

Note: This excludes the Yadana pipeline from Myanmar as that was not built by PTT, even though they do purchase the gas.

So, yes, there have been major projects built in Thailand without being tainted by corruption.

TH

Although I agree with TH's sentiment, I would suggest every major project in the world is tainted by "corrpution" to some degree..

[thaihome]

Although I agree with TH's sentiment, I would suggest every major project in the world is tainted by "corrpution" to some degree..

Point taken and I should have said excessive corruption that impacts the quality of the finished project.

TH

[jackr]

So we are being given advance warning as to the location of South East Asia's Chernobyl.

Chernobyl only went off because they kept the turbines running on cooldown, or somat like that; basically bypassing safety to see how much they could squeeze out of it. A probable scenario here with Somchai Bloggs at the controls, but highly unlikely our Thai friends would try the same, and particularly as they'd have a Western overseer.

Nuclear is the obvious choice so what's wrong with contracting/leasing the technology from the Germans, French, US or even the Russians.

... or even the Brits! tut, tut. After all, they've only be dabbling for 60+ years and lent the Yanks the knowhow to make enrichment more efficient to produce their fatboy.

The most expensive and dangerous technology in the world to produce electricity....

Thailand has plenty of wind, sun and some natural gas to produce electricity.

What a load of tosh. Harnessing the worth of the wind, sun, tides, et al, as we know it just does not cut the mustard for current energy needs, and with coal and oil running out and as highly inefficient as they are in respect, nuclear is (currently) the only way to go.

[RickBradford]

Whatever the right mix of technologies might be for Thailand, wind power is a proven flop and needs to be taken off the board.

These windmills have been given serious government-subsidized trials in Denmark, Germany and the UK, and have delivered intermittent, unreliable and expensive energy in all three places. If the eco-subsidies hadn't been in place, the windmills would never have been built as a commercial proposition.

They cannot, by their nature of depending on the wind, produce base-load electricity. It would take 1,500 wind turbines spread over 20 km² to produce the same electricity as a single 1GW nuclear power station – even then it could not provide base load.

It's not good news on the environmental front, either:

In a paper published online Feb. 22 [2010] in Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics, MIT Researchers (Wang and Prinn suggest) that using wind turbines to meet 10 percent of global energy demand in 2100 could cause temperatures to rise by one degree Celsius in the regions on land where the wind farms are installed, including a smaller increase in areas beyond those regions. The researchers also suggest that the intermittency of wind power could require significant and costly backup options, such as natural gas-fired power plants.

They are noisy (upsetting people and livestock), unsightly (bringing down property prices) and provide no jobs.

Plus, they chop up birds at an alarming rate -- the vortex is strong enough to pull even large birds of prey (which like the same windy conditions) into the blades.

The world's largest and most carefully monitored wind farm, Altamont Pass in California, he says, is estimated to have killed between 2,000 and 3,000 golden eagles alone in the past 20 years.

Since turbines were erected on the isle of Smola, off Norway, home to an important population of white-tailed sea eagles, destruction is so great that last year only one chick survived. Thanks to wind farms in Tasmania, a unique sub-species of wedge-tailed eagles faces extinction.

The real problem, we are told, is that birds of prey and wind developers are both drawn, for similar reasons, to the same sites – hills and ridges where the wind provides lift for soaring birds and heavily subsidised profits for developers.

It is a classic example of where a moralistic idea (sounds cuddly and eco-friendly) turns out to be a moral, financial and environmental disaster.

Edited March 23, 2010 by RickBradford

[britadders28]

Did Thailand ever replace the battery in its one Tsunami warning buoy that the US contributed to them or is that still too expensive to protect Phuket?... And they will safely oversee the design, build and operation of nuclear power plants? BS

no they didnt same at koh lanta

[ding]

I love Thailand and respect Thais for many reasons. But a nuclear power plant in Thailand is a planned disaster. Thailand's best hope is that there is too much corruption and dysfunction to finish it.

[RickBradford]

Many countries are researching different kinds of next-generation nuclear plants, including floating-barge nukes, and mini-nukes such as the "Hyperion Power Module", a 25 MW unit measuring five feet by seven, easily portable with no moving parts. It can supply electricity for 7-10 years without refuelling, before being replaced. The manufacturers claim they will be able to deliver units from 2013 onwards at a price of $50 million.

Full story here.

[Soutpeel]

Many countries are researching different kinds of next-generation nuclear plants, including floating-barge nukes, and mini-nukes such as the "Hyperion Power Module", a 25 MW unit measuring five feet by seven, easily portable with no moving parts. It can supply electricity for 7-10 years without refuelling, before being replaced. The manufacturers claim they will be able to deliver units from 2013 onwards at a price of $50 million.

Full story here.

These sort of nukes are at design stage only and are many years away from actual commerical production, even the pebble-bed reactor design is still only at pilot plant stage...Think the 2013 date is a bit optimistic, once designed and pilot plants run for "X" years, can the certification process begin, which is required before commerical implementation.

Personally think Thailand will go for 900MW PWR Units, as believe they are looking at circa 4000MW of nuclear...even if they started construction tomorrow, first until wouldnt go on line until around 2017 at the earliest

[Soutpeel]

I love Thailand and respect Thais for many reasons. But a nuclear power plant in Thailand is a planned disaster. Thailand's best hope is that there is too much corruption and dysfunction to finish it.

Intrigued by this post....why is it a planned disaster ??

[rametindallas]

So we are being given advance warning as to the location of South East Asia's Chernobyl.

Toshiba (Japan) with investment by Bill Gates' (Microsoft) energy research firm is developing a reactor that is buried and needs no humans to run (eff it up) it. It runs on nuclear wast which doesn't then need disposal. Here's the link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100323/ts_afp/japannuclearusgatescompanytoshiba_20100323053821

[rametindallas]

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but would this decrease the cost of electricity for consumers?

Will electricity be cheaper?

Even if it costs a few baht per kilowatt hour the savings will be in not having to import oil.

[brahmburgers]

How does the recent violent rallies in Bangkok relate to Thailand's EGAT wanting nuclear power plants?

Here's how:

>>>> If and when there are demonstrations against the nuclear plants, things can get ugly fast. If one or more of the nuclear plants get built, there will be demonstrations at some point - it's practically inevitable, as there are so many factors which could eventually trigger anger & resistance among the populace.

Even just in the proposal phase, there was a fracas in Surat Thani last year - and that was just one little provincial meeting which was designed to showcase EGAT's proposal. It was supposed to be open to the public, but wasn't. The public was kept outside, but wound up forcing its way in to the hall and the meeting was nixed.

That's less than a drop in the bucket of what could happen when a groundswell of opposition builds - to counter nuclear power plants in Thailand - whether in the development stages, or after they're built.

[plachon]

How does the recent violent rallies in Bangkok relate to Thailand's EGAT wanting nuclear power plants?

Here's how:

>>>> If and when there are demonstrations against the nuclear plants, things can get ugly fast. If one or more of the nuclear plants get built, there will be demonstrations at some point - it's practically inevitable, as there are so many factors which could eventually trigger anger & resistance among the populace.

Even just in the proposal phase, there was a fracas in Surat Thani last year - and that was just one little provincial meeting which was designed to showcase EGAT's proposal. It was supposed to be open to the public, but wasn't. The public was kept outside, but wound up forcing its way in to the hall and the meeting was nixed.

That's less than a drop in the bucket of what could happen when a groundswell of opposition builds - to counter nuclear power plants in Thailand - whether in the development stages, or after they're built.

Remember the protests against a tantalum processing plant planned for Phuket back in the late 80s Brahm? Protests against nuclear will be far more serious, for sure, wherever it is planned. Sadly, Thailand's best chance to benefit from nuclear will be do move it "offshore", as it has done with hydro and lignite in Laos. even though the impacts will not respect national borders, at least the thais don't have to worry about pesky NGOs and protesters when they move their insatiable greed for power offhsore to less democratic neighbours.

[apetley]

Q: has there ever been a large scale, Thai government funded project which was not tainted by corruption?

Before and shortly after PTT was partially privatized, over a period of 15 years, 3 major gas pipelines from the Gulf of Thailand and associated offshore and onshore facilities were built at a cost some 5 billion dollars.

Note: This excludes the Yadana pipeline from Myanmar as that was not built by PTT, even though they do purchase the gas.

So, yes, there have been major projects built in Thailand without being tainted by corruption.

TH

Try reading up on the Thai-Malaysian natural gas pipeline in Chana district. Years of land grabs and intimidation by officialdom. No surprise that the venture was backed by ex Prime Minister Thaksin.

[brahmburgers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2MGTabPAbg

10-MW from the Sun

Officials from NASA and Florida Power & Light Company (FPL) have commissioned a 10-megawatt (MW) solar photovoltaic (PV) facility. "This type of commercial partnership with NASA helps provide Florida residents with new sources of 'green power' that reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and improve the environment," said Robert Cabana, director of the Kennedy Space Center.

The facility features approximately 35,000 solar PV panels across 60 acres (144 rai) at Kennedy Space Center. SunPower also designed and built another 25-MW array called DeSoto Next Generation Solar Energy Center in Florida, which is the largest solar PV power plant in the U.S. altogether that one company is building 110 megawatts just in Florida. If it were built in Thailand, it would be enough electric to provide for close to 100,000 homes.

BB comments: As good as PV is, even for large scale power generation, concentrated solar using mirrors, is probably better suited for Thailand, as it takes less start-up costs than PV, though both technologies are cheaper than nuclear in the long run. As for other advantages of solar over nuclear, well, a person has to be living in a dark hole in the ground to not be aware of the many advantages of solar over nuclear - too many to list.

[zorro1]

great news

[Soutpeel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2MGTabPAbg

10-MW from the Sun

Officials from NASA and Florida Power & Light Company (FPL) have commissioned a 10-megawatt (MW) solar photovoltaic (PV) facility. "This type of commercial partnership with NASA helps provide Florida residents with new sources of 'green power' that reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and improve the environment," said Robert Cabana, director of the Kennedy Space Center.

The facility features approximately 35,000 solar PV panels across 60 acres (144 rai) at Kennedy Space Center. SunPower also designed and built another 25-MW array called DeSoto Next Generation Solar Energy Center in Florida, which is the largest solar PV power plant in the U.S. altogether that one company is building 110 megawatts just in Florida. If it were built in Thailand, it would be enough electric to provide for close to 100,000 homes.

BB comments: As good as PV is, even for large scale power generation, concentrated solar using mirrors, is probably better suited for Thailand, as it takes less start-up costs than PV, though both technologies are cheaper than nuclear in the long run. As for other advantages of solar over nuclear, well, a person has to be living in a dark hole in the ground to not be aware of the many advantages of solar over nuclear - too many to list.

All very nice but if I am reading this correctly 60 acres of land used to get 10Mw !!!! do the maths to see how much land needed to get the same output of a single nuclear 1000Mw PWR unit....

Would suggest people will not be living in dark hole in the ground, but having to live under bl**dy PV solar panels...and in effect this land is "dead"...

[thaihome]

Q: has there ever been a large scale, Thai government funded project which was not tainted by corruption?

Before and shortly after PTT was partially privatized, over a period of 15 years, 3 major gas pipelines from the Gulf of Thailand and associated offshore and onshore facilities were built at a cost some 5 billion dollars.

Note: This excludes the Yadana pipeline from Myanmar as that was not built by PTT, even though they do purchase the gas.

So, yes, there have been major projects built in Thailand without being tainted by corruption.

TH

Try reading up on the Thai-Malaysian natural gas pipeline in Chana district. Years of land grabs and intimidation by officialdom. No surprise that the venture was backed by ex Prime Minister Thaksin.

Actually the project dates back to at least 1998 and the major contracts were awarded before Thaksin was first elected in 2001. But he did indeed support it. Not sure what you mean by "land grabs" as the local landowners along the right away were amply compensated, along with anyone else that could come up with any sort of damage claim, no matter how spurious. I don’t deny that some officials took advantage of knowing the route and bought land before it became public knowledge. Gee, that must only happen in Thailand, right?

TH

[Soutpeel]

I don't deny that some officials took advantage of knowing the route and bought land before it became public knowledge. Gee, that must only happen in Thailand, right?

TH

....Of course it only happens in Thailand.....there has never been "insider trading" by goverment officials in any Western country related to a major project.... ....right...lets not start talking about kick backs from the Saudi's as related to arms supplies, or MP's fiddling expenses, German car companies handing out freebee's, War in Iraq and Haliburton....The West is clean....no corruption....

[brahmburgers]

From OP, taken from Nation Newspaper:

BANGKOK: -- The Energy Ministry will finalise by May the three potential sites for nuclear power plants, with Surat Thani and Nakhon Si Thammarat likely to make the final cut, a ministry source said yesterday.

The source said Burn and Roe Asia will submit its feasibility study on the nuclear power plant project and potential locations to the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand in May.

The company has already reduced 14 locations down to five, with two in Surat Thani, one in Nakhon Si Thammarat, one in Trat and one in Nakhon Sawan.

Perhaps not intended as a diversion tactic, but the problems in Bangkok are a BIG diversion nevertheless. That should be fine with EGAT, as the less publicity (for naming nuclear sites), the better.

Also: All fans of nuclear for Thailand should take a serious consideration for what sorts of security measures will be needed. Will Thailand subcontract security forces from outside the country (as it will with other specialists re; building/maintaining the nuclear plants)? Or will Thai nuclear plants rely on Thai security personnel?

It's no joke, as nuclear are potential security risks (plum targets for terrorists, demonstrators, etc), and exposed to adversaries, both foreign and domestic. If you live near a plant, would you want the sorts of police and military top brass guarding it - who are currently dealing with the demonstrators in Thailand? I think not. Not unless you want a bunch of do-nothing, wilting, mixed-up, unintelligent troops standing between you and the take-over (and possible destruction) of a nuclear plant. If the Thai gov't and EGAT sub-out security responsibilties to the likes of Israel's Mossad, then I'd feel somewhat secure. In contrast, having a baby-belly-soft top brass like General Anuporn in charge is a scary thought.

[Soutpeel]

(and possible destruction) of a nuclear plant.

Not arguing with your concerns over security, but how much do you actually know about Nuclear PS.....a commerical NPS is 80% "normal" power station - turbines, generator condensors etc and if a PWR type - non-radioactive.

The radioactive bits - reactor vessel/pressurisers/steam generators are inside an air locked reactor building, which your average Somchai protestor will not get near, and all that would happen in the unlikely event of none wanted people getting on the plant would be to shut the reactors down....you have to understand Somchai getting into the control room pushing buttons to get the reactor to "explode" will only result in a shut-down.

Planting explosives outside reactor buildings will do very little, as containments are designed and constructed in such a way as to take full impact from a 747 without fracture ie meters thick reinforced concrete.

Generally NPS's are designated national security keypoints and are protected as such, installations I have worked at through out the world have had army barracks established next door, and security exclusion zones of upto 5km from the main gate of the plant...note measures talked about are in so-called 3rd world countries.....the most lax security I ever came across in the nuclear business was in the US..

[redparrot]

Rajprasong has just been named by the Thai government as the safest place in Thailand for the nuclear power plant.

Seriously, if Thailand builds a nuclear power plant, it will be the end of Thailand. This country is NOT ready for nuclear power and the dangers that come with it.

[Soutpeel]

Seriously, if Thailand builds a nuclear power plant, it will be the end of Thailand. This country is NOT ready for nuclear power and the dangers that come with it.

Absolute Bollex....

Lets examine this your statement and base it in some reality

So-called "3rd world countries"

Indian = commerical nuclear

China = commerical nuclear

Pakistan = commerical nuclear

South Africa = commerical nuclear

etc etc

Do you think countries like these are not/where not ready for commerical nuclear ?

" So-called 1st word/advanced countries"

USA = commerical Nuclear = according to NRC from 1971 to 2002 - 33 "nuclear indidents"

Russia = commerical nuclear = Chenoble

UK = Winscale fire

Japan = commerical nuclear = a few leaks/ forgery of inspection reports

But never heard of any "nuclear incidents" at any of the so-called 3rd world country plants (and suppose, your answer is going to be they have covered them up ??)

You seem to making statements about a subject you know absolutely nothing about

[brahmburgers]

WHERE IS THE REPORT ?

Did I miss it? The 3 or 4 nuke plants were supposed to be officially named in May 2010.

Hello EGAT, Anybody home?

[brahmburgers]

(and possible destruction) of a nuclear plant.

Not arguing with your concerns over security, but how much do you actually know about Nuclear PS.....a commerical NPS is 80% "normal" power station - turbines, generator condensors etc and if a PWR type - non-radioactive.

The radioactive bits - reactor vessel/pressurisers/steam generators are inside an air locked reactor building, which your average Somchai protestor will not get near, and all that would happen in the unlikely event of none wanted people getting on the plant would be to shut the reactors down....you have to understand Somchai getting into the control room pushing buttons to get the reactor to "explode" will only result in a shut-down.

Planting explosives outside reactor buildings will do very little, as containments are designed and constructed in such a way as to take full impact from a 747 without fracture ie meters thick reinforced concrete.

Generally NPS's are designated national security keypoints and are protected as such, installations I have worked at through out the world have had army barracks established next door, and security exclusion zones of upto 5km from the main gate of the plant...note measures talked about are in so-called 3rd world countries.....the most lax security I ever came across in the nuclear business was in the US..

Are you kidding? You talk about security as if 'once people know the mechanics of it, there's nothing to be concerned about.'

Here's a scenario: A group of very angry and rowdy protesters commandeer a truckload of C4 explosive and park it in front of a University. Only a few specialists know that the explosives can not be properly detonated without blasting caps. The techies try telling the concerned public, but by that time the crowd of rowdies has increased to tens of thousands, all shouting and waving weapons.

Does the fact that detonators are needed, lessen the public perceptions/reaction to the truckload of C4 parked in front of a University?

The same comparison could be made with a robber who holds a rifle to a bank manager's head. The robber can say there's no bullet in the magazine, but does that lessen the drama of the scenario?

I'm sorry, but to try to negate the security concerns of a nuclear power plant (being taken over by rowdy protesters) by saying the protesters cannot make the reactor 'explode' does not much dampen the severity of a nuclear plant take-over. In the past two years, Thai protesters have taken over Thailand's two biggest airports, its government house, and have taken over its largest city. If nuke plants are built, it's only a matter of time before groups of Thai protesters (or worse: insurgents) take one or more of them over. Telling local cities the protesters can't make the plant it blow up is scant comfort.

[Tonto21]

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but would this decrease the cost of electricity for consumers?

Will electricity be cheaper?

Sure! Just look at how much cheaper electricity is now in other country with nuclear power!!!!

[Rucharee]

Perhaps Khun Thaksin could get his RPG ready to fire a warning shot at this nuclear site.

[somchai69]

Hopefully Thailand will be using Weastern technology and Western engineering, together with Western supervision.

Is that the Long Island technology????????????????

Edited June 30, 2010 by somchai69