Local Attitudes Towards Neutering Animals

[tutsiwarrior]

I want to neuter the house cat but I'm getting mixed signals from the family. Is depriving a sentient being reproduction considered to be murder? The women in the family of childbearing age use birth control.

What is the prevailing mentality in this regard?

btw, the cat just gave birth to 4 kittens and the runt looks like it's gonna die...no one paid much attention to the kittens except meself as a westerner to make sure that there was always water and food available...but now that the runt is very ill their attention has been focused...

I've been here for 10 years but there is still a lot that I don't understand...

[Pdaz]

Had my kitten neutered a couple of Months back.. I was expecting some negativity from the vet but they got on with the job and it was done without fuss.. However on the subject of pets Thais do seem to have a different attitude.. Yes I'm sure some love their animals but I was thinking more of the vets attitude.. All the ones I have used seem to be just doing a job and appear to have little genuine affection for cats.. Maybe there are more dog lovers here.. My GF still can't get used to having a cat around and the neighbors seem to think cats are little better than vemin.. So much for the bhuddist love of living things

[tutsiwarrior]

funny as my experience was interesting in Indonesia, a muslim country...muslims consider dogs to be unclean and out where I worked in the desert in saudi there were packs of dogs...I hit one on my way to work one morning at high speed on the highway and it totalled the car...it was dark so no possibility of finding it...youl'd see dead dog carcasses everywhere in that place

on the way into work near Jakarta my driver (indonesian muslim) hit a cat and skidded to a halt to find it...poor thing had a broken back and not much one could do... the driver was really distressed...

I just wanna do the right thing and neuter the cat as I don't want unwanted and unattended animals in the house here in Thailand...but the folks here seem to think that I'm a bit weird for wanting to do so...

[ScubaBuddha]

funny as my experience was interesting in Indonesia, a muslim country...muslims consider dogs to be unclean and out where I worked in the desert in saudi there were packs of dogs...I hit one on my way to work one morning at high speed on the highway and it totalled the car...it was dark so no possibility of finding it...youl'd see dead dog carcasses everywhere in that place

on the way into work near Jakarta my driver (indonesian muslim) hit a cat and skidded to a halt to find it...poor thing had a broken back and not much one could do... the driver was really distressed...

I just wanna do the right thing and neuter the cat as I don't want unwanted and unattended animals in the house here in Thailand...but the folks here seem to think that I'm a bit weird for wanting to do so...

Timely post for me as I just got back from the vet where I took one of my cats which has been really ill fro a few days. The vet I use does seem to have an affinity for animals as she talks to them to console them as she works. She is a little more expensive than some others but I think it is worth it. She actually recommended getting the two strays I took in spayed and neutered. I think you will find that the common suggestion among vets in Thailand. The male gets into fights and gets really beat up at times and that is how he gets sick, so she says. Been meaning to get them fixed for ages. Once he is well it's hack hack time, then the female's turn, although she is a couple years old and hasn't had kittens yet so maybe is already fixed.

One big difference from the west is they don't euthanize here unless the animal is really suffering because of the believe in reincarnation. This is the reason for all the soi dogs all over Thailand. Even the volunteer Soi Dogs Foundation people are not allowed to do this. In the west, or at least in America, they will put an animal to sleep simply due to having no one to take care of it.

[tutsiwarrior]

yeah, OK, so we can say that vets recommend neutering...I mean, it's common sense when you see so many unattended animals running around...

my family are serious about their religion as all festivals and occasions that require attendance are scrupulously looked after...but if I don't get the cat fixed no one will when I go away for work again...I still think that they are reluctant for unexplained reasons...

btw the runt kitten had a miraculous recovery; she shit a whole lot then regained animation...feline constipation? The family were watching and were relieved...she looked bad and I expected her to die soon, maybe someone said a prayer or something?

[camerata]

my family are serious about their religion as all festivals and occasions that require attendance are scrupulously looked after...but if I don't get the cat fixed no one will when I go away for work again...I still think that they are reluctant for unexplained reasons...

A lot of Thais feel that being an animal is a result of past bad karma and the animal has to work out this karma itself, so they just leave them alone. If they become a problem, they put them in a van and dump them at the nearest temple, so they become someone else's problem. That might be the reason they don't want to interfere.

The Buddha said don't harm sentient beings, but its arguable whether neutering or sterilizing an animal harms it or makes it suffer (much).

[tutsiwarrior]

my family are serious about their religion as all festivals and occasions that require attendance are scrupulously looked after...but if I don't get the cat fixed no one will when I go away for work again...I still think that they are reluctant for unexplained reasons...

A lot of Thais feel that being an animal is a result of past bad karma and the animal has to work out this karma itself, so they just leave them alone. If they become a problem, they put them in a van and dump them at the nearest temple, so they become someone else's problem. That might be the reason they don't want to interfere.

The Buddha said don't harm sentient beings, but its arguable whether neutering or sterilizing an animal harms it or makes it suffer (much).

yeah...I vaguely had the same suspicion about the karma thing...

I'm gonna neuter the cat anyway as I don't see the point in having miserable, starving animals around...my karma might be improved for making a contribution in this regard...

thanks fer all the comments/observations...

[bina]

went and got foofoo's removed when we removed his eye; anon asked once why, and that was that... although he always asks people why they only have one dog or cat or horse, he feels they need to be in (mating) pairs ... but didnt raise a fuss about the neuter either...

here we also have religious vets who dont neuter or spay although a spay is more permissable then a neuter... ...

just do it; dont think aobut it, no one will notice really anyway after a few days... if its a female, they will jsut assume she cant get pregnant...

bina

[tutsiwarrior]

trouble is I gotta put the cat inna box and get her down to the vet hospital in Nakhon Pathom so the family is necessarily involved as I don't drive here and everything is provided...no problems so much with the wife as she would consider the activity to be a falang eccentricity...but I don't wanna worry the kids or the MiL; they like the kittens...

might just be easier to put the cat and the kittens inna box and drop them off down the wat...make the whole thing someone else's problem...maybe not too good for my karma, though...

[phetaroi]

trouble is I gotta put the cat inna box and get her down to the vet hospital in Nakhon Pathom so the family is necessarily involved as I don't drive here and everything is provided...no problems so much with the wife as she would consider the activity to be a falang eccentricity...but I don't wanna worry the kids or the MiL; they like the kittens...

might just be easier to put the cat and the kittens inna box and drop them off down the wat...make the whole thing someone else's problem...maybe not too good for my karma, though...

I find this to be a really offensive post. Certainly if you have a decent relationship with the kids, you can explain that the cat has to go to a cat doctor. Jesh! Kids love pets. Do you love kids? And why make anything someone else's problem. Can't you just take a little time to do the right thing?

[IMA_FARANG]

There's different opinions...but I consider mtself a Buddhist and I would not say that a cat is a "sentient being". That doesn't mean you treat them badly...but my Thai G/F is a serious Buddhist and our cat (male) is nuetered. She saw no problem with it, in fact she considers it a "kindness" to the cat...not bringing possible unwanted kittens into the world, that would be treated poorly, is a "merit making" action.

As a buddhist you wouldn't traet a cat or dog badly...cause them to suffer...but the definition of "sentient beings", in my opinion, is those that can think and make moral decisions. Cats and dogs are not at that level, but need to be protected and treated well. My G/F feels that nuetering a cat, male or female, is a benefit to them...and she regards it to be in accord with her Buddhist principles.

So I say, go ahead and do it. If not just to stop the suffering of the unwanted kittens.

Incidentally, my G/F and her son found an abandoned male kitten, nearly dead. They took it to the vet, and it survived. The cat is now over a year old, and definately the lord and master of the house. He turned out to be a Thai Siamese cat...although he was completely white as a kitten. His Siamese cat coloring came in as he got older. He's nuetered, so no offspring for him.

They called him Arnold, for Arnold Swatzenegger (sp?) because he nearly died several times, but he always came back.

[Mosha]

My wife's take on it it is. I have the cat's cut, then I'll come back as a cat, and I'll be cut. I have had 3 females neutered when pregnancies went wrong. Strangely what were 3 content cats decided it was time to move out. One moved next door, I don't know where the other 2 went.

[lioness]

My wife's take on it it is. I have the cat's cut, then I'll come back as a cat, and I'll be cut. I have had 3 females neutered when pregnancies went wrong. Strangely what were 3 content cats decided it was time to move out. One moved next door, I don't know where the other 2 went.

Funny things about cats here they seem to move out usually after being steralised. I have a floating population of between 7 and 13, it;s always the steralised ones that move out.

[camerata]

but the definition of "sentient beings", in my opinion, is those that can think and make moral decisions. Cats and dogs are not at that level,

But with that narrow definition, much of Buddhism wouldn't make much sense. You could start with the Wiki entry on sentient beings in Buddhism:

"Sentient beings is a technical term in Buddhist discourse. Broadly speaking, it denotes beings with consciousness or sentience or, in some contexts, life itself. Specifically, it denotes the presence of the five aggregates, or skandhas."

"Sentient beings is a term used to designate the totality of living, conscious beings that constitute the object and audience of Buddhist teaching. Translating various Sanskrit terms (jantu, bahu jana, jagat, sattva), sentient beings conventionally refers to the mass of living things subject to illusion, suffering, and rebirth (Samsara)."

I think the very reason we should be compassionate towards animals is because they are sentient and feel and suffer like we do, albeit on a lower level.

Here's what Bhikkhu Bodhi says about Right Action:

(1) Abstaining from the taking of life (panatipata veramani)

Herein someone avoids the taking of life and abstains from it. Without stick or sword, conscientious, full of sympathy, he is desirous of the welfare of all sentient beings.

"Abstaining from taking life" has a wider application than simply refraining from killing other human beings. The precept enjoins abstaining from killing any sentient being. A "sentient being" (pani, satta) is a living being endowed with mind or consciousness; for practical purposes, this means human beings, animals, and insects. Plants are not considered to be sentient beings; though they exhibit some degree of sensitivity, they lack full-fledged consciousness, the defining attribute of a sentient being.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...i/waytoend.html

[tutsiwarrior]

trouble is I gotta put the cat inna box and get her down to the vet hospital in Nakhon Pathom so the family is necessarily involved as I don't drive here and everything is provided...no problems so much with the wife as she would consider the activity to be a falang eccentricity...but I don't wanna worry the kids or the MiL; they like the kittens...

might just be easier to put the cat and the kittens inna box and drop them off down the wat...make the whole thing someone else's problem...maybe not too good for my karma, though...

I find this to be a really offensive post. Certainly if you have a decent relationship with the kids, you can explain that the cat has to go to a cat doctor. Jesh! Kids love pets. Do you love kids? And why make anything someone else's problem. Can't you just take a little time to do the right thing?

relax, dude...the last bit was tongue in cheek...thais don't have the same relationship with animals (pets or otherwise) as westerners do and that is the point of the thread...cute, furry animals just come and go, nothing to do with the kids...

[camerata]

relax, dude...the last bit was tongue in cheek...thais don't have the same relationship with animals (pets or otherwise) as westerners do and that is the point of the thread...cute, furry animals just come and go, nothing to do with the kids...

I took your comment as tongue in cheek too. However, let's not have any more personal attacks - from either of you.

[tutsiwarrior]

I'm cool with it...phetaroi: peace, OK?

[lonewolf99]

The sad fact of life in all of South East Asia is that all Animals are considered by three criteria that begin with the letter P.

P for pest that has to be eradicated at all costs (Snakes for sure) as it might be part of some ridiculous Superstitious nonsense. i.e. Hear an Owl hooting some one will die in the house that night !!! Large lizards in the house are bad luck but small ones are OK !!! Animals that might spoil crops. Kill them all.

P for Pet so it can be used to make money and entertain the kids for a few hours....Where are the Mummy and Daddy Squirrels I ask when I see so many baby ones for sale in markets. The other use for a pet of any size is to be exhibited in a Zoo for commercial reasons.

99% of animals I have seen in Thailand have been in a box or cage.

and LASTLY ... P for the POT....Aroi, as my GF says every time she sees one of those small, thin, long tailed Iguana like lizards.

Has no one noticed the clear blue skies in Thailand....totally devoid of any large bird life. (OK I have seen the Egrets and a few storks as well) Go to India, Africa Europe, South America and the sky is black with all manner of birds. Red and Black Kites, Buzzards, Vultures (never ever seen one here) Maribu Storks, Crows, Legions of Pigeons. I had a Humming bird feeder in Brazil. Gave me hours of peaceful enjoyment on my balcony and watching screeching flocks of parrots overhead.

Back in my home land of Scotland I had 27 different kinds of bird come into my garden. In 5 years in Thailand I have barely seen 12 different species anywhere from Chaing Mai to Phuket. And everywhere these days I see people going around with 'T' shirts that have "SAVE WORLD LIFE" on their chests....a bit late for the life of animals in Thailand. I went up the highest mountain in Thailand last year and saw ......not one animal. Our guide had to admit to me eventually that the Karen people have eaten everything on Doi Intanon about 40 years ago. Now they grow flowers, fruit and veg to survive.

So talking about spaying cats or dogs in this country is like asking about Quantum Physics. You will get little or no help from the locals.

My GF was upset because I only wanted male fish. "They die if they no Boomsing" she wailed.

Yes, I agree all cats and dogs should be sorted. They Boomsing Mah Mah for sure.....