Petty Domestic Theft

[Swelters]

There has been some acrimonious discussion of this topic recently but the topic is worth considering with some sobriety because it happens so frequently and is quite sad in its consequences. Let me ask this: how would the Thai handle a situation in which a trusty employee is discovered filching from the postage petty cash, the wife pads the expenses to send money upcountry, or the maid steals some money from a rude guest?

Swelters

[LawrenceOSurin]

In regard to the "Fire at once" theory on dealing with the

suspected theft of a visitor's money by a domestic:

My friend, she's Thai, did not concur on this;

these soaws do think "he has a lot to spare

whilst they, poor things, do groan with life's full care."

Methinks he'd best converse with her and say

"for months your service to me doth satisfy;

yet my friend, though mai supap, can testify

though hardly iphone, car keys, or golden locket

sure some 'stang did fly from his own pocket."

"Tis true or not is not for me to blame

and yet we know the Buddha oft declared

who does bad or good will always get the same

nor low or high-so from this will e'er be spared.

What say you now on such a charge severe?

Nay better hold your tongue, wai destiny

Our lives are short there's little time for bun

the bed's unmade, suk pah must yet be done."

Lawrence O'Surin

[Latindancer]

Faith and begorrah, he's got the gift of the gab, to be sure, to be sure. Must have kissed the Blarney Stone.

Would he be saying that it be best to use mercy and compassion ? Saints be praised ! And it's his first post, too. It's like a light, blessing rain compared to those first-post trolls.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Latindancer

[mca]

My wife feels exactly the way I do. A thief is a thief and they'd be out the door in 1 second flat. We couldn't tolerate that breach of trust or to put it simply you're shitting on the people who pay your salary without which you'd definitely be screwed.

Some folks might think " Ah but how would you like to live on 200 baht a day?" or "You don't know what it's like"

Whatever. There's an awful lot of decent folk in that situation (or worse) with morals who wouldn't dream of robbing someone just because they needed the cash.

[smokie36]

In regard to the "Fire at once" theory on dealing with the

suspected theft of a visitor's money by a domestic:

My friend, she's Thai, did not concur on this;

these soaws do think "he has a lot to spare

whilst they, poor things, do groan with life's full care."

Methinks he'd best converse with her and say

"for months your service to me doth satisfy;

yet my friend, though mai supap, can testify

though hardly iphone, car keys, or golden locket

sure some 'stang did fly from his own pocket."

"Tis true or not is not for me to blame

and yet we know the Buddha oft declared

who does bad or good will always get the same

nor low or high-so from this will e'er be spared.

What say you now on such a charge severe?

Nay better hold your tongue, wai destiny

Our lives are short there's little time for bun

the bed's unmade, suk pah must yet be done."

Lawrence O'Surin

[givenall]

It seems it is very common for employee take money for them self. I have few instances that I like to list two.

1. I bout a closet and they deliver it to my condo. When the installation was almost finished the worker said, I have few hardware to make the back of the closet stronger for 200 bth. My wife got upset and said she will call the sales person to find out why it is not included. At this time the installer said, oh it is here an he installed them. Obviously he wanted 200 for himself

2. I bout some furniture, and I negotiated a price of 25000 bth, and when they brought the furniture, they gavve me a bill for 23000. I thought they gave me discount. 2 weeks later the sale person calls me and says I have to pay 2000 bth more and please transfer it to his account and he will take care of it. Well another case that the sales person quoted 2000 bth more for himself while telling the factory 23000 instead of 25000bth that was negotiated.

[slapout]

Braggarts, liars, thieves are not my choice of companions or help, but in the latter case, it may be an opportunity to turn someones actions and thinking around for their betterment. If caught early and the theft was for a specific need (not want), I would take the time to inform them I knew what they had done and find out why. If they could convince me that it would not happen again I would give it a go. But I would explain that the police, his/her family and anyone contactable who knows and may hire him/her would be notified. Plus you may inform him/her that you are personal friends with the local voodoo lady and you have a personal item. or a lock of hair to ensure the spell is cast correctly if it happens again......

[lioness]

We had a second gardener for a while, chap about 60, good worker and he wanted 200 a day which was ok. He works for us for a while and we realise he's a bit light fingered, nothing major you understand but theft nevertheless. we chose just to keep an eye on him as we knew his wife doesn't work and they have a quadraplegic son.

However it came to a head when he stole one of the Ducks, My husband who is Thai had finally had enough and went to the Village chief, who got the man around and he admitted he had stolen (and eaten) the Duck. They then worked out what the Duck was worth, it was a young female so they worked out what could be expected in the way of eggs and youngsters and arrived at a price, which my husband reduced. The gardener was told to work for 3 days without pay as his punishment.

He worked 2 days, I am hoping he has learned his lesson but my husband and I are also concerned that his family have no money for food, so after the 2 days we buy a big bag of rice and take it around to his wife and then we let him off working the 3rd day. Actually the rice cost a bit more than his wages, but at least the family had something.

He kept on working and we really thought things had improved until one of my Tortoises go missing, such a delicacy aI believe,Quite delicious he told his neighbours.

He no longer works for us, the Tortoise was the final dinner.

[chiang mai]

We had a second gardener for a while, chap about 60, good worker and he wanted 200 a day which was ok. He works for us for a while and we realise he's a bit light fingered, nothing major you understand but theft nevertheless. we chose just to keep an eye on him as we knew his wife doesn't work and they have a quadraplegic son.

However it came to a head when he stole one of the Ducks, My husband who is Thai had finally had enough and went to the Village chief, who got the man around and he admitted he had stolen (and eaten) the Duck. They then worked out what the Duck was worth, it was a young female so they worked out what could be expected in the way of eggs and youngsters and arrived at a price, which my husband reduced. The gardener was told to work for 3 days without pay as his punishment.

He worked 2 days, I am hoping he has learned his lesson but my husband and I are also concerned that his family have no money for food, so after the 2 days we buy a big bag of rice and take it around to his wife and then we let him off working the 3rd day. Actually the rice cost a bit more than his wages, but at least the family had something.

He kept on working and we really thought things had improved until one of my Tortoises go missing, such a delicacy aI believe,Quite delicious he told his neighbours.

He no longer works for us, the Tortoise was the final dinner.

That's a great tale, what do you think the moral of your story is?

[smokie36]

We had a second gardener for a while, chap about 60, good worker and he wanted 200 a day which was ok. He works for us for a while and we realise he's a bit light fingered, nothing major you understand but theft nevertheless. we chose just to keep an eye on him as we knew his wife doesn't work and they have a quadraplegic son.

However it came to a head when he stole one of the Ducks, My husband who is Thai had finally had enough and went to the Village chief, who got the man around and he admitted he had stolen (and eaten) the Duck. They then worked out what the Duck was worth, it was a young female so they worked out what could be expected in the way of eggs and youngsters and arrived at a price, which my husband reduced. The gardener was told to work for 3 days without pay as his punishment.

He worked 2 days, I am hoping he has learned his lesson but my husband and I are also concerned that his family have no money for food, so after the 2 days we buy a big bag of rice and take it around to his wife and then we let him off working the 3rd day. Actually the rice cost a bit more than his wages, but at least the family had something.

He kept on working and we really thought things had improved until one of my Tortoises go missing, such a delicacy aI believe,Quite delicious he told his neighbours.

He no longer works for us, the Tortoise was the final dinner.

My sympathy to your gourmand gardener. If tortoise tastes anything like armadillo I'm afraid I would also have been reduced to petty pilfering.

[Gaccha]

We had a second gardener for a while, chap about 60, good worker and he wanted 200 a day which was ok. He works for us for a while and we realise he's a bit light fingered, nothing major you understand but theft nevertheless. we chose just to keep an eye on him as we knew his wife doesn't work and they have a quadraplegic son.

However it came to a head when he stole one of the Ducks, My husband who is Thai had finally had enough and went to the Village chief, who got the man around and he admitted he had stolen (and eaten) the Duck. They then worked out what the Duck was worth, it was a young female so they worked out what could be expected in the way of eggs and youngsters and arrived at a price, which my husband reduced. The gardener was told to work for 3 days without pay as his punishment.

He worked 2 days, I am hoping he has learned his lesson but my husband and I are also concerned that his family have no money for food, so after the 2 days we buy a big bag of rice and take it around to his wife and then we let him off working the 3rd day. Actually the rice cost a bit more than his wages, but at least the family had something.

He kept on working and we really thought things had improved until one of my Tortoises go missing, such a delicacy aI believe,Quite delicious he told his neighbours.

He no longer works for us, the Tortoise was the final dinner.

That's a great tale, what do you think the moral of your story is?

1. Give the duck not the rice since with the rice they can live for two weeks before it runs out but with the duck they could have lived off its eggs and youngsters for years.

2. don't think that by paying what is less than the minimum wage you are doing any favours.

3. how do you know the tortoise didn't eat the duck-- I suspect your gardener was just protecting the tortoise from your fearsome retribution.

[chiang mai]

We had a second gardener for a while, chap about 60, good worker and he wanted 200 a day which was ok. He works for us for a while and we realise he's a bit light fingered, nothing major you understand but theft nevertheless. we chose just to keep an eye on him as we knew his wife doesn't work and they have a quadraplegic son.

However it came to a head when he stole one of the Ducks, My husband who is Thai had finally had enough and went to the Village chief, who got the man around and he admitted he had stolen (and eaten) the Duck. They then worked out what the Duck was worth, it was a young female so they worked out what could be expected in the way of eggs and youngsters and arrived at a price, which my husband reduced. The gardener was told to work for 3 days without pay as his punishment.

He worked 2 days, I am hoping he has learned his lesson but my husband and I are also concerned that his family have no money for food, so after the 2 days we buy a big bag of rice and take it around to his wife and then we let him off working the 3rd day. Actually the rice cost a bit more than his wages, but at least the family had something.

He kept on working and we really thought things had improved until one of my Tortoises go missing, such a delicacy aI believe,Quite delicious he told his neighbours.

He no longer works for us, the Tortoise was the final dinner.

That's a great tale, what do you think the moral of your story is?

1. Give the duck not the rice since with the rice they can live for two weeks before it runs out but with the duck they could have lived off its eggs and youngsters for years.

2. don't think that by paying what is less than the minimum wage you are doing any favours.

3. how do you know the tortoise didn't eat the duck-- I suspect your gardener was just protecting the tortoise from your fearsome retribution.

No 2 gets my vote and says it all.

[metisdead]

We had a second gardener for a while, chap about 60, good worker and he wanted 200 a day which was ok. He works for us for a while and we realise he's a bit light fingered, nothing major you understand but theft nevertheless. we chose just to keep an eye on him as we knew his wife doesn't work and they have a quadraplegic son.

However it came to a head when he stole one of the Ducks, My husband who is Thai had finally had enough and went to the Village chief, who got the man around and he admitted he had stolen (and eaten) the Duck. They then worked out what the Duck was worth, it was a young female so they worked out what could be expected in the way of eggs and youngsters and arrived at a price, which my husband reduced. The gardener was told to work for 3 days without pay as his punishment.

He worked 2 days, I am hoping he has learned his lesson but my husband and I are also concerned that his family have no money for food, so after the 2 days we buy a big bag of rice and take it around to his wife and then we let him off working the 3rd day. Actually the rice cost a bit more than his wages, but at least the family had something.

He kept on working and we really thought things had improved until one of my Tortoises go missing, such a delicacy aI believe,Quite delicious he told his neighbours.

He no longer works for us, the Tortoise was the final dinner.

That's a great tale, what do you think the moral of your story is?

1. Give the duck not the rice since with the rice they can live for two weeks before it runs out but with the duck they could have lived off its eggs and youngsters for years.

2. don't think that by paying what is less than the minimum wage you are doing any favours.

3. how do you know the tortoise didn't eat the duck-- I suspect your gardener was just protecting the tortoise from your fearsome retribution.

No 2 gets my vote and says it all.

200 Baht a day upcountry would be a pretty good rate, actually for Bangkok, the daily minimum wage is 206 Baht per day:

http://www.mayerbrown.com/publications/art...=8445&nid=6

[lioness]

The moral of the story, well there could be several.

In this area 200 Baht is a good wage for a labourer, the normal is 8 hours a day, but at my place they only do a 6 hour day and get their midday meal given to them, although it's not Duck or Tortoise.

[yabaaaa]

We had a second gardener for a while, chap about 60, good worker and he wanted 200 a day which was ok. He works for us for a while and we realise he's a bit light fingered, nothing major you understand but theft nevertheless. we chose just to keep an eye on him as we knew his wife doesn't work and they have a quadraplegic son.

However it came to a head when he stole one of the Ducks, My husband who is Thai had finally had enough and went to the Village chief, who got the man around and he admitted he had stolen (and eaten) the Duck. They then worked out what the Duck was worth, it was a young female so they worked out what could be expected in the way of eggs and youngsters and arrived at a price, which my husband reduced. The gardener was told to work for 3 days without pay as his punishment.

He worked 2 days, I am hoping he has learned his lesson but my husband and I are also concerned that his family have no money for food, so after the 2 days we buy a big bag of rice and take it around to his wife and then we let him off working the 3rd day. Actually the rice cost a bit more than his wages, but at least the family had something.

He kept on working and we really thought things had improved until one of my Tortoises go missing, such a delicacy aI believe,Quite delicious he told his neighbours.

He no longer works for us, the Tortoise was the final dinner.

Sad that they never learn

[yabaaaa]

We had a second gardener for a while, chap about 60, good worker and he wanted 200 a day which was ok. He works for us for a while and we realise he's a bit light fingered, nothing major you understand but theft nevertheless. we chose just to keep an eye on him as we knew his wife doesn't work and they have a quadraplegic son.

However it came to a head when he stole one of the Ducks, My husband who is Thai had finally had enough and went to the Village chief, who got the man around and he admitted he had stolen (and eaten) the Duck. They then worked out what the Duck was worth, it was a young female so they worked out what could be expected in the way of eggs and youngsters and arrived at a price, which my husband reduced. The gardener was told to work for 3 days without pay as his punishment.

He worked 2 days, I am hoping he has learned his lesson but my husband and I are also concerned that his family have no money for food, so after the 2 days we buy a big bag of rice and take it around to his wife and then we let him off working the 3rd day. Actually the rice cost a bit more than his wages, but at least the family had something.

He kept on working and we really thought things had improved until one of my Tortoises go missing, such a delicacy aI believe,Quite delicious he told his neighbours.

He no longer works for us, the Tortoise was the final dinner.

That's a great tale, what do you think the moral of your story is?

1. Give the duck not the rice since with the rice they can live for two weeks before it runs out but with the duck they could have lived off its eggs and youngsters for years.

2. don't think that by paying what is less than the minimum wage you are doing any favours.

3. how do you know the tortoise didn't eat the duck-- I suspect your gardener was just protecting the tortoise from your fearsome retribution.

No 2 gets my vote and says it all.

Gardener had a choice he could easily have walked away if he accepts the wage thats it.

[chiang mai]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

[llso]

Back in Da Day, When we had our factory (frozen shrimp)in Prachuab. We hired a girl to take care of our worker house. It was me and another Farang. We were supposed to live there but took an apartment offbase in Hua Hin. The girl would cook lunch for us and do our laundry,and tidy up the house. We gave her a budget to go to the local market and buy the food for our lunch. Now I knew what meats and veggies cost at the market ,so it was obvious she was pilfering the food money. So, I told her we would take her to the market once a week and buy the food.

We had leased 35 rai and a shrimp farm.I decided to have my workers build a chicken house . I bought the bamboo and tatch and 20 egg laying hens. After a while every few days or so I was told something had got one of the chickens. I never once seen a dead chicken.

We had two security guards, quite comical actually. one we paid a little extra to wash the company truck. He did a very good job and cleaned out all the change and 20 baht toll money we had stashed in the truck.

The OP asked how a Thai would react , but the reality is they stole these things because especially at that time the" Farangs" were percieved as so rich they certainly wouldn't even notice a couple of hundred baht or a few chickens missing.

LL

[slapout]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

So what would be your recommendation for a daily wage for household help, gardener, Nannie, etc? How about a husband/wife team (maid/gardener)? Our live in maid/nanny was paid 3000 baht/month and she stayed for 3 years. She had meals and sleeping accommodations and a day off/month. She saved half and sent half salary home each month and after 3 years she went home to start a business???

[way2muchcoffee]

So what would be your recommendation for a daily wage for household help, gardener, Nannie, etc? How about a husband/wife team (maid/gardener)? Our live in maid/nanny was paid 3000 baht/month and she stayed for 3 years. She had meals and sleeping accommodations and a day off/month. She saved half and sent half salary home each month and after 3 years she went home to start a business???

Way to go Master. Don't you see that the conditions you put your nanny/maid under are not unlike that of a traditional 'house slave'. You paid the whopping sum of $100 per month and gave only 1 day off per month? Good God, that's almost inhuman. And it doesn't matter if the maid appreciated and liked it or not. The maid's perceptions are not relevant to fairness.

I would say minimum of 6-8k per month for a live-in with 1 day off per week, health care, bonuses, employer pays for any education, and one week paid holiday every three or four months would be something approaching fair.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Mosha]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

A mate of mine employed a maid for 3 days/week in BKK. He paid her 10,000/mth. He had the neighbours at his dooe complaining, he told them it wasn't a problem I can afford it. His neighbours said it was a problem because they couln't afford it, and their maids wanted it.

[grumpyoldman]

Still waiting for an actual Thai person to respond as to how Thais handle such a situation. Are there any on this Forum?

Lots of nice stories, a scottish yarn and some truly keenyow posters though............3000thb for a month, amazing Thailand!

[Chonburiram]

Nothing wrong with the wage slapout paid to his maid!

[yabaaaa]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

I dont think "fair" comes into it if I am offered a job and the salary isnt enough I dont do it but I dont go into it thinking hey maybe I can steal a few extra baht of the owner.

[way2muchcoffee]

Nothing wrong with the wage slapout paid to his maid!

Except that this kind of thinking and behavior is exactly what is fueling the rage behind the current so-call class war.

Fairness has everything to do with it.

[slapout]

To answer one question 'What would a Thai Pay"? My wife (Thai) handled the employment of mentioned maid, so there you have that side of it. Now all you proponents of fair pay, no one answered my question about the couple pay. A current example, farm couples are going for 5 to 6000 baht a month for live on farm labor. Have to admit these wages are considered niggerly by some, including you business tycoons, but add in the housing, utilities, food, etc and that is considered market by the local Thai.

Have not heard wages discussed that much in the current protests, in fact few specific solutions to the general public situation. I do think 'Rage' may be too a sensational a description for the milling of the protesters in Thailand.

Guess you proponents of 'fair pay' give a large tip to the sales person at Tesco, the auto salesman, doctor/dentist at the clinic/hospital, the bib when you get a ticket, etc, when you receive service? Some mentioned the neighbors (Thai) complained about wages paid as too high, thus pointing out that we farang are deemed to be causing another problem with our judgmental attitudes.

[way2muchcoffee]

Guess you proponents of 'fair pay' give a large tip to the sales person at Tesco, the auto salesman, doctor/dentist at the clinic/hospital, the bib when you get a ticket, etc, when you receive service?

What are you on about? In those situation you are not the employer, you are the customer, or victim in the case of the BiB. As an employer you have every right to pay what you think is fair, so long as you don't violate labor laws.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Chonburiram]

w2mc,

Still thinking in " whooping $'s " ?

Thai reality is: Wages, for example, for unskilled, female factory workers are around 4000- 6000 ฿ pm.

With this money they have to finance: Accommodation, transport, clothes, food, hygiene/health, fun ( )

Staying for 3 years in a farang household = great experience, good value.

Class war? Fairness?

[way2muchcoffee]

w2mc,

Still thinking in " whooping $'s " ?

Thai reality is: Wages, for example, for unskilled, female factory workers are around 4000- 6000 ฿ pm.

With this money they have to finance: Accommodation, transport, clothes, food, hygiene/health, fun ( )

Staying for 3 years in a farang household = great experience, good value.

Class war? Fairness?

I do not deny any of what you said. What I am saying is that these pathetically low wages, the lack of real opportunity for betterment, the discrimination based on region and skin color, the way in which they are forced to grovel at the feet of the pu yai, all of these things add up to one heck of an inner rage. Maybe you don't see it. Maybe your don't know many upcountry Thais who will talk with you honestly about how they feel. I don't know. But their rage is palpable and rightfully so.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[slapout]

If in Bangkok and I wanted to hire a live in maid/housekeeper, depending on several criteria that would be discussed upon application and acceptance, I could offer 1 day off/week and 13,555 baht/month and that could be regarded as fair. Realistically, I could but would not, nor would I tell other people what is fair between them and their employees.

Thank you for acknowledging that I have the right to pay what I consider fair. I left out the labor law note as in my opinion, that nothing to do with fair employment in Thailand.