Petty Domestic Theft

[way2muchcoffee]

If in Bangkok and I wanted to hire a live in maid/housekeeper, depending on several criteria that would be discussed upon application and acceptance, I could offer 1 day off/week and 13,555 baht/month and that could be regarded as fair. Realistically, I could but would not, nor would I tell other people what is fair between them and their employees.

Thank you for acknowledging that I have the right to pay what I consider fair. I left out the labor law note as in my opinion, that nothing to do with fair employment in Thailand.

If you don't want people to talk about what you pay your wage-slaves perhaps you shouldn't post that information on a public discussion forum.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[chiang mai]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

I dont think "fair" comes into it if I am offered a job and the salary isnt enough I dont do it but I dont go into it thinking hey maybe I can steal a few extra baht of the owner.

I think fairness has everything to do with it, if I'm fair with people then chances are that they'll be fair with me. And forget the norms or the standards as guidelines, they're very often wrong anyway - a person has to use their own judgement in these matters and that's where fairness is a good guide.

[chiang mai]

w2mc,

Still thinking in " whooping $'s " ?

Thai reality is: Wages, for example, for unskilled, female factory workers are around 4000- 6000 ฿ pm.

With this money they have to finance: Accommodation, transport, clothes, food, hygiene/health, fun ( )

Staying for 3 years in a farang household = great experience, good value.

Class war? Fairness?

Of course the other word for that is exploitation and I don't want to play that game.

[powderpuff]

I'm just a keeneow falang but I would want the cops or the village headman called in. I hate thieves. The Saudi's have the right idea.

[LawrenceOSurin]

I'm just a keeneow falang but I would want the cops or the village headman called in. I hate thieves. The Saudi's have the right idea.

Such lust for justice is oft expressed just so.

The brain is not their home. But three feet below

dank jungle hides a worm with single eye

whose single thought gives to the tongue this lie.

Lawrence O'Surin

[TheLaughingMan]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

Problem is, if you paid them 10 times that, they would be unhappy, still bad work and still steal. So whats your point.

[way2muchcoffee]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

Problem is, if you paid them 10 times that, they would be unhappy, still bad work and still steal. So whats your point.

How do you know? That sounds like a racist remark to me. I can guarantee that you never paid your maid 30,000 bt per month.

[MJo]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

Problem is, if you paid them 10 times that, they would be unhappy, still bad work and still steal. So whats your point.

How do you know? That sounds like a racist remark to me. I can guarantee that you never paid your maid 30,000 bt per month.

Good old racist card. Looks like you have no clue.

TLM is right, it's not the salary. I have fired few engineers, all in pay scale of 60 to 80k per month for stealing few hundred baht from the company. Inflated phone bill claims, petrol receipts and so on. Warned them few times but still they are continuing to do it so had to let them go. It was never the case they needed the money. All getting paid 50% more than their collagues working for thai companies.

To pay 30k for a maid is open invitation from you to them to abuse you as much as they can.

That's how it works here and to be fair Thailand is not that bad. Try phils or indonesia.

[way2muchcoffee]

Good old racist card. Looks like you have no clue.

TLM is right, it's not the salary. I have fired few engineers, all in pay scale of 60 to 80k per month for stealing few hundred baht from the company. Inflated phone bill claims, petrol receipts and so on. Warned them few times but still they are continuing to do it so had to let them go. It was never the case they needed the money. All getting paid 50% more than their collagues working for thai companies.

To pay 30k for a maid is open invitation from you to them to abuse you as much as they can.

That's how it works here and to be fair Thailand is not that bad. Try phils or indonesia.

He made a comment that said that the people here will steal from you and be lazy no matter how well you pay them. I don't believe this to be true and it sounds racist to me. It sounds like he was saying Thais are lazy thieves. Maybe I misinterpreted what he said.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[slapout]

Paid over 30,000 baht to repair irrigation pipes that a farm worker manged to cut up with a weed wacker and he did all of that damage in 4 days of mayham. Just to clarify he was paid 250/day plus fuel for his machine (he set price) and he had the balls to ask for me to pay for the repair of said machine when he forgot to add oil to the gasoline.

You would not have to say that I sounded like a racist that day as I was racist in my thoughts/comments as he hurriedly departed our property.

In the real world we figured salary was about 50 of total company cost for wage and hour employee. We also figured that 10% of the help would be responsible for 90% of our problems. We also allowed a 4 to 6 month training period to try to eliminate the more costly screw ups. Too bad the Thai workers can not seem to even approach these figures. I have almost come to the point of trusting only those who are off work for the day, but then I remember they will come in to pick their pay.

[yabaaaa]

w2mc,

Still thinking in " whooping $'s " ?

Thai reality is: Wages, for example, for unskilled, female factory workers are around 4000- 6000 ฿ pm.

With this money they have to finance: Accommodation, transport, clothes, food, hygiene/health, fun ( )

Staying for 3 years in a farang household = great experience, good value.

Class war? Fairness?

I do not deny any of what you said. What I am saying is that these pathetically low wages, the lack of real opportunity for betterment, the discrimination based on region and skin color, the way in which they are forced to grovel at the feet of the pu yai, all of these things add up to one heck of an inner rage. Maybe you don't see it. Maybe your don't know many upcountry Thais who will talk with you honestly about how they feel. I don't know. But their rage is palpable and rightfully so.

Many Thais I know when given opportunity and help spit it right back at you, they're bone idle half the time, something for nothing or another major ball* up by them

ends up costing you. Mai pen rai!!

Edited March 28, 2010 by yabaaaa

[yabaaaa]

Good old racist card. Looks like you have no clue.

TLM is right, it's not the salary. I have fired few engineers, all in pay scale of 60 to 80k per month for stealing few hundred baht from the company. Inflated phone bill claims, petrol receipts and so on. Warned them few times but still they are continuing to do it so had to let them go. It was never the case they needed the money. All getting paid 50% more than their collagues working for thai companies.

To pay 30k for a maid is open invitation from you to them to abuse you as much as they can.

That's how it works here and to be fair Thailand is not that bad. Try phils or indonesia.

He made a comment that said that the people here will steal from you and be lazy no matter how well you pay them. I don't believe this to be true and it sounds racist to me. It sounds like he was saying Thais are lazy thieves. Maybe I misinterpreted what he said.

No you didnt but YOU need to get into the real world of many Thais as this is what actually happens in many cases.

[way2muchcoffee]

Let me just publicly apologize to anyone I've offended on this thread. I called one person a racist and another an exploiter of the lower classes. This was inappropriate and unnecessarily inflammatory. I will endeavor to be more measured in my comments in future. Obviously I have strong feeling on this, but that's no excuse. Sorry fellas.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[yabaaaa]

Let me just publicly apologize to anyone I've offended on this thread. I called one person a racist and another an exploiter of the lower classes. This was inappropriate and unnecessarily inflammatory. I will endeavor to be more measured in my comments in future. Obviously I have strong feeling on this, but that's no excuse. Sorry fellas.

Its nice to see someone apologising, many wouldnt, its always nice to see even if you had nothing to apologise for.IMO

[saakura]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

So what would be your recommendation for a daily wage for household help, gardener, Nannie, etc? How about a husband/wife team (maid/gardener)? Our live in maid/nanny was paid 3000 baht/month and she stayed for 3 years. She had meals and sleeping accommodations and a day off/month. She saved half and sent half salary home each month and after 3 years she went home to start a business???

i think that is way below any decent standard. We have a live in nanny who works 7am to 6pm, she has her own room with aircon/tv/ensuite and is off 5pm saturday to 7am mondau each week and we pay her 11000Baht per month. 3000 per month with one single day off each month is unreasonable.

[MJo]

Don't worry about it w2m.

The thing is that stealing from the employer is much more common here than in the west. That's the way it is, i can't explain why but it just is. Look at corruption, been going on for thousands of years and it's not going to stop just as it is not acceptable by western standards. People are still using tea money to gain personal benefit. Something that is not done in the west that often by normal folks in their everyday life.

But i always find it worth asking the candidates how much salary they are expecting to get. Be it employee or domestic help. That will tell you if it's going to work in long run and it only does if you both are in the same level in your expectations. What ever is the agreed amount it must be enough and cheating or stealing to get more is not acceptable even if the requested / agreed amount is not that much in western standards.

[Chonburiram]

Each to their own on this point but me, I couldn't find it in myself to pay a domestic employee only 200 Baht a day, it's just not fair and reasonable in my book.

So what would be your recommendation for a daily wage for household help, gardener, Nannie, etc? How about a husband/wife team (maid/gardener)? Our live in maid/nanny was paid 3000 baht/month and she stayed for 3 years. She had meals and sleeping accommodations and a day off/month. She saved half and sent half salary home each month and after 3 years she went home to start a business???

i think that is way below any decent standard. We have a live in nanny who works 7am to 6pm, she has her own room with aircon/tv/ensuite and is off 5pm saturday to 7am mondau each week and we pay her 11000Baht per month. 3000 per month with one single day off each month is unreasonable.

Another example from reality, nurse aid, gave care to a 100% paralyzed man 24/7 ( sleeping in same room, wake up 3 - 4 times per night,changing position of the patient ) in Bang Na area.

The first 3 years she earned 8000 ฿, than, after she wanted to quit, it went up to 9000 ฿. 2 years later, her 2 sisters had finished their education ( on her expenses ) and she changed the workplace to a private hospital doing 12 h shifts day and night, 1 day off per week, 15 days holidays p.a., started with 9000 ฿, now, after 3 years around 11 000 ฿.

She is happy when she can go to work in the airconditioned hospital, her 2500.- room only has a ventilator.

[lioness]

The other aspect is what do you get for your money, when we were setting the place up and working 8 hours a day, the 8 hours was just a techicality, basically you get 15 minutes work, then they stop for a drink, roll a smoke, have another drink, then because they have drank so much water they need a leak, then they roll another smoke to go back to work with.

If you have 2 men doing one job, there will usually be only 1 working at a time while the other one is leaning on his spade or whatever. Come 11.30 they make sure they stretch out the drink and the smoke and before you know it it's nearly noon and they start getting ready to head off for lunch. so quite often you are getting about 3 solid hours of work out of a day, you wouldn't put up with it you say, well most of the time this is how it is and hiring different staff will be no better.

[LawrenceOSurin]

Don't worry about it w2m.

The thing is that stealing from the employer is much more common here than in the west. That's the way it is, i can't explain why but it just is.......

You know, they say you don't buy it, you rent it.

The thing. You really, I mean, what do you keep?

You don't keep anything. It's security. Things. Things. You know?

It's just, you try to stave off insecurity. You can't do it.

Ricky Roma, in

Glengarry Glen Ross by David Mamet

via Lawrence O'Surin