Marriage In Thailand To A Thai Citizen

[A_Traveller]

Anyone provide any light on this?

I've a friend [yes really ] who's looking to 'legalise' his long term relationship. However, he was married and divorced literally decades ago [and AFAIK no children] and does not have the paperwork [decree-absolute] here, or after all this time anywhere. He's no wish to travel back to UK to obtain a copy etc. So what are his options?

Does he simply get a 'affirmation of freedom to marry' and not disclose the prior marriage, or does he need to obtain a legal copy of the decree? If the second anyone know if this can be done from here?

Thoughts, suggestions?

Regards

PS. Just to add my take on this he wants to ensure his wife's position since he's not getting any younger as they politely say.

PPS Apologies to mod if in wrong place please feel free to place it correctly if in error.

/Edit to add PS and lack of children/

Edited April 2, 2010 by A_Traveller

[hawthorne]

He must get proof of divorce for the Thai government to recognize the marriage. But if you are never leaving Thailand why worry about it. You can get have a party wedding which the monks come. I call it a monk wedding but am told that is not the name for it by the wifey. That is not a legalized wedding.

A lot of Thais have second wives so no problem with it not being legal. It is no such thing as making an honest gal out of her.

No need for marriage just be happy.

[A_Traveller]

Thanks. As I noted I think this is more about ensuring her position when he dies, since there is no 'common law' or cohabitation provision in Thai law

The oddity is, of course, he, [assuming he's telling me the truth, which I've no reason to doubt] is completely legally free to marry, just doesn't have the piece of paper [Decree]. Since posting this I've found the HMG site HO ID Services but it looks like, unless he knows specifics the fees for this document are quite high, compared to, say a birth certificate.

Regards

/edit typo & add Thai legal provision comment//

Edited April 2, 2010 by A_Traveller

[brianmarinus]

Hello!

I dont know enything about how it is in UK. but I am going to married my woman-I am from Denmark,and I must have the att. fore devorce-it is also many years ago and the document is gone-but I search in the province where we was married,but since it is so many years ago,they have left it over to the national arcive,and there I got it from.

But as I sayd,I did not know if you have the same opportunity in UK.-but it is the way we do in Denmark-and the Ambasy have told me,that since the original papers are lost,they will accept a copy-and I have don it all from the computer here in Chiang Rai.

Brian

Good luck!!!

[A_Traveller]

Thanks Brian. And congratulations on your upcoming marriage.

Looks like the UK is similar, with the 'legal certified copy' accessible through the web, provided he can remember the date of the marriage and some other details.

Regards

PS Someone who knows me called and said after all this time, is it really required, since the ex-wife [who might even be dead] has no legal recourse? It is, when you get to 20 years + no children, a bit bizarre unless you're related to the 'retentive traveller in a current thread here.

Edited April 2, 2010 by A_Traveller

[473geo]

If he did get a decree absolute he would have gained this in a local court, they can provide copies which I understand are not expensive an E-mail and a standard payment may be all that is required.

I can also understand the need to legally marry as my understanding is the wife can then claim 'widows' and personal pension benefits on the death of the husband so the legality is important and should also be registered with the relevant UK authorities.

Best wishes

Geo

[brianmarinus]

Hello A_traveller!

Tanks, for your reply-and about that your freind maby dont know the day and so-in my papers there was a box-from this year-to this year,so I dont think that will bee eny problem-just your freind knows here name and where they was married-and he hopefully do.!

Send a mail to the office where he was married and ask for it,and if they have it,you will get it and if they dont,you will recive a mail and they will tell you where to go for it.so it is realy easy,I think-I think it all took me around a 1/2 our to do.

Good luck to you and your freind.

Brian

[7by7]

the legality is important and should also be registered with the relevant UK authorities.

If the marriage is legal in Thailand then it is also legal in the UK (Foreign marriages Act 1892). One cannot register it again in the UK.

From Guidance for British nationals wishing to marry in Thailand

Consular Section can arrange for your marriage certificate to be deposited with the General Register Office (GRO) in the United Kingdom. This not a legal obligation and has no bearing on the validity or otherwise of the marriage. It simply means that you are able to obtain a certified copy of your marriage certificate directly from the GRO should you need to do so in the future.

If you do have a need to provide a marriage certificate in the UK for any legal purpose then the original Thai one accompanied by a certified translation is sufficient. Usually certification by the translation bureau is enough, but for added peace of mind you can have the translation certified by the Thai MFA.

[473geo]

But you can lodge/register the certified translation with the GRO which may be a good idea??....... as there is now a thread running where the Amphur is not exactly being too helpful regarding a marriage certificate.......in fact claiming they do not appear to have a copy or any inclination to provide one!! currently advising divorce/remarry!! If there is any doubt, ever, when you need to appease the UK authorites, they can easily verify the marriage because you appear on the GRO register.

edit: clarity

Edited April 3, 2010 by 473geo

[Daffy D]

If your friend is British just go to the British Embassy and get "affirmation of freedom to marry" letter from them.

You have to "Affirm" that you are free to marry. If as in your friends case just say that he has never been married before and don't worry about ancient paperwork that may be almost impossible to produce.

Your friend is free to marry, having got his divorce, so no subterfuge involved.

As far as I can remember the freedom to marry letter is ready the next day.

[TAWP]

He must get proof of divorce for the Thai government to recognize the marriage. But if you are never leaving Thailand why worry about it. You can get have a party wedding which the monks come. I call it a monk wedding but am told that is not the name for it by the wifey. That is not a legalized wedding.

A lot of Thais have second wives so no problem with it not being legal. It is no such thing as making an honest gal out of her.

No need for marriage just be happy.

I've been told it is the opposite, the blessing ceremony is the main thing, the paperwork isn't always done even by Thais.

[A_Traveller]

Thanks for replies. Must admit I'm with Daffy on this, since he is able to affirm that he is free to marry. Guess I'll take a look at the complexity/cost of obtaining the Decree next week [after Easter], though the long pause on the line when I asked if he recalled the maiden name for his wife doesn't bode well.

On the blessing vs wedding point, traditionally and until relatively recently 'the paperwork' was very much seen as an option, with the officiation by the Abbot and monks as the 'real' marriage. The authorities have pushed over time to try and raise the profile of the legalisation process, which, in part, I suspect, accounts for the lack of official recognition of cohabitation. The added complexity of one party being an alien adds its own dynamics.

Regards

[473geo]

If your friend is British just go to the British Embassy and get "affirmation of freedom to marry" letter from them.

You have to "Affirm" that you are free to marry. If as in your friends case just say that he has never been married before and don't worry about ancient paperwork that may be almost impossible to produce.

Your friend is free to marry, having got his divorce, so no subterfuge involved.

As far as I can remember the freedom to marry letter is ready the next day.

I disagree - the inaccuracy is that he is stating he has never been married - something which is relatively easy to check.

Is he feeling lucky?.....

[A_Traveller]

^^

... relatively easy to check

Is it?

Regards

Edited April 3, 2010 by 7by7
See below

[473geo]

^^

... relatively easy to check

Is it?

Regards

If he worked in the UK did he ever claim married man allowance?

Did he register to vote? = list of all previous addresses

Just a couple of things that could point to a registry office entry.

Edited April 3, 2010 by 7by7
See below

[A_Traveller]

^ Point taken, though do they correlate the voting register, and inland revenue data in a format which allows the Embassy to validate the 'unmarried claim' overnight? Also is not the issue the Thai side per se. After all, as has to be acknowledged he is by all legal measure free to marry.

Regards

[G54]

UKBMD on the internet lists marriages, dates of and locations.

It is not too difficult to find the date of the marriage if he has his own name, her maiden name and also a rough idea of the year they married. He can also get her date and place of birth here too. All good information.

For the divorce he or others can log onto 'Ancestry' com on the web (not sure if I can post the link, but easy enough to search for) who also carry divorce dates. He does not need to be specific about the year but a 5+ years date range helps. As does the area if not the specific court that dealt with the divorce. Also his name - obviously.

A little research on the web gets you all the information you need. Then you get in touch with the local registry office who will post out a certificate.

[473geo]

^ Point taken, though do they correlate the voting register, and inland revenue data in a format which allows the Embassy to validate the 'unmarried claim' overnight? Also is not the issue the Thai side per se. After all, as has to be acknowledged he is by all legal measure free to marry.

Regards

I'm just pointing out that there is a risk......not on the Thai side, but maybe on future visa issues to the UK for his wife, if he is caught out.....not saying he will be, but for the sake of a couple of weeks and a few quid to get it right......it is a call he must choose to make.

There are countless forms a person will fill in over the years when are married, where they enter 'married', not to mention if the government keep and can trace your date/place of birth - then there is a lot of information a person supplies as they navigate life which has been easily recordable for years.

I've never heard of anybody being caught out.......but then would they ever admit it!!!

[A_Traveller]

^^ Thanks for your patience on this.

As I noted above the maiden name was a bit of a non starter but I'll have a trawl. If you do have some specific URLs please feel free to PM me.

Regards

PS Just to add, I'm not suggesting he shouldn't [though I'll probably end up doing it for him, he's not a webbie] but I can understand the slight disconnect from his perspective. [statue of Limitations anyone...]

Edited April 3, 2010 by A_Traveller

[7by7]

Flame post removed.

Other posts responding to the flame have been edited to remove the response.

[7by7]

But you can lodge/register the certified translation with the GRO which may be a good idea??....... as there is now a thread running where the Amphur is not exactly being too helpful regarding a marriage certificate.......in fact claiming they do not appear to have a copy or any inclination to provide one!! currently advising divorce/remarry!! If there is any doubt, ever, when you need to appease the UK authorites, they can easily verify the marriage because you appear on the GRO register.

edit: clarity

Yes, as said, you can lodge a copy of your Thai certificate with the GRO; but that's it. You do not, and cannot, register your marriage with them. Your marriage will not appear on any form of register in the UK. If you later ask them for a copy of your marriage certificate what you will get is a copy of the Thai certificate, you will not get a British style certificate.

If people feel this is worth it; that's their choice.

[473geo]

^^ Thanks for your patience on this.

As I noted above the maiden name was a bit of a non starter but I'll have a trawl. If you do have some specific URLs please feel free to PM me.

Regards

PS Just to add, I'm not suggesting he shouldn't [though I'll probably end up doing it for him, he's not a webbie] but I can understand the slight disconnect from his perspective. [statue of Limitations anyone...]

Your best bet is the court the decree nisi was finalised in - once you have this information, his name D.O.B, place he married, church, registry office, He should be able to E-mail the court for a copy, make a payment, and have it sent out. Maiden name of the wife would be a big plus.....he's not making it easy for you!!!.

[473geo]

Google 'births marriages and deaths'

You will find sites that may allow you to locate his marriage, and maybe find the maiden name of the wife

Then you just require the court and a rough idea when he divorced

You'll see the that google throws up the GRO register as well!!!

Good Luck

Geo

Edited April 3, 2010 by 473geo

[473geo]

But you can lodge/register the certified translation with the GRO which may be a good idea??....... as there is now a thread running where the Amphur is not exactly being too helpful regarding a marriage certificate.......in fact claiming they do not appear to have a copy or any inclination to provide one!! currently advising divorce/remarry!! If there is any doubt, ever, when you need to appease the UK authorites, they can easily verify the marriage because you appear on the GRO register.

edit: clarity

Yes, as said, you can lodge a copy of your Thai certificate with the GRO; but that's it. You do not, and cannot, register your marriage with them. Your marriage will not appear on any form of register in the UK. If you later ask them for a copy of your marriage certificate what you will get is a copy of the Thai certificate, you will not get a British style certificate.

If people feel this is worth it; that's their choice.

Quote from GRO website

'You can create a record of your overseas marriage or civil partnership at any time after the ceremony. You need to get the original documents, or certified copies, issued by the foreign authority – this is not an automatic process.'

[sarahsbloke]

The affirmation of freedom to marry is just a bit of local paperwork for the Thai authorities.

As far as I can see it's only purpose is to create a tax on foreigners marrying Thais.

NO information on the affirmation is ever checked by anyone, you can write whatever you like in any of the lines.

The only important information is your name, birthdate, parents names and passport number.

The translation service will use this form to give you your official Thai name (so make sure they know what spelling you want in Thai script)

This document has no value in law, so don't worry too much about it.

Only the Thais will ever see it.

Edited April 3, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[7by7]

Quote from GRO website

'You can create a record of your overseas marriage or civil partnership at any time after the ceremony. You need to get the original documents, or certified copies, issued by the foreign authority – this is not an automatic process.'

It's the DirctGov website, actually, linked to from the GRO; Registering an overseas marriage or civil partnership.

Read further down the page and you will find that if you use this service

Overseas marriages and civil partnerships are noted in the public indexes.

So, although this is not the same as an entry in the UK registry, I'll concede that there will be a record of the marriage somewhere in the UK.

It goes on to say

Once recorded, you can request certified copies of the documents, which saves you having to contact an overseas authority. These are black and white photocopies of the material GRO holds and are not presented in the form of a British-style certificate.

So all they hold, and all you would get from them, is a copy of the certificate that you already have! Easier than contacting the ampur if you are in the UK and need a copy, but that's it.

It is up to individuals to decide if the (admittedly small; £36) cost and effort is worth it. Personally, I don't and in over 9 years of living in the UK with my wife have never had a problem with using our original Thai certificate and certified translation of same when we have needed to prove our marriage to the UKBA, DWP, HMRC, NHS, DVLA, our local authority or anyone else.

On a tangent, registering a birth at the embassy is worth it, as an official entry will be made in the registry of births and the child will receive a British birth certificate. However, it is not compulsory and not doing so does not mean the child isn't British.

[7by7]

The affirmation of freedom to marry is just a bit of local paperwork for the Thai authorities.

As far as I can see it's only purpose is to create a tax on foreigners marrying Thais.

NO information on the affirmation is ever checked by anyone, you can write whatever you like in any of the lines.

The only important information is your name, birthdate, parents names and passport number.

The translation service will use this form to give you your official Thai name (so make sure they know what spelling you want in Thai script)

This document has no value in law, so don't worry too much about it.

Only the Thais will ever see it.

I know nothing about Thai law, but is there not a risk that making a false statement on one's AFM would, if discovered, invalidate the marriage?

Better to be sure and do it by the book, IMHO.

Obtaining a copy of one's decree absolute isn't difficult; see here.

[Daffy D]

The affirmation of freedom to marry is just a bit of local paperwork for the Thai authorities.

As far as I can see it's only purpose is to create a tax on foreigners marrying Thais.

NO information on the affirmation is ever checked by anyone, you can write whatever you like in any of the lines.

The only important information is your name, birthdate, parents names and passport number.

The translation service will use this form to give you your official Thai name (so make sure they know what spelling you want in Thai script)

This document has no value in law, so don't worry too much about it.

Only the Thais will ever see it.

The letter from the Embassy is ready the next day. They do not check. Why would they? If they had the information at hand they could just give out a letter without anybody "Affirming"

As "sarahsbloke" said the letter is for the Thai authorities confirming you are free to marry. If you are divorced you ARE free to marry. So why make difficulties for yourself?

On the other hand it will give you a Chance to change your mind by the time you got all the additional paperwork together.

[7by7]

From AFM form

I am single and have not previously been married* (or) I am widowed* (or) I am divorced* (please attach appropriate certificate - originals only) (*)....

I confirm that all the above is true and correct.

So, if you have been married before and do not want to produce the relevant certificate to show that marriage is no longer extant, you would have to lie on the form and say that you were single and had not previously been married.

If one were to make such a false declaration when registering a marriage in the UK, not only would it invalidate the marriage, but one could be faced with criminal charges. Does the same hold true in Thailand?

Saying 'only the Thais will ever see it' not only smacks of arrogance, it is also very misleading. For the marriage to be legal in the UK, it must be legal in Thailand. If the marriage is invalid in Thailand, then it is invalid in the UK too.

Your risk, your choice; but I know what I would do. ('cos I did it!)

[A_Traveller]

First thanks for all the responses.

In summary, I still see the appeal of not 'declaring', however, as noted maybe that could be an issue in the future.

Reviewing the affirmation paper, I can see this being fun as well, since I'm not sure who he can put as referees [if they have to be UK], and his permanent address is Nakon Where in Thailand.

On the ease with which a past marriage could be 'discovered', have to say that the ancestry site was revealing [and personally slightly troubling ]

The Court site noted above doesn't seem to be set-up for remote application [please correct me if I'm wrong] and there is the associated business site where the cost looks to be in the 100 to 150 GBP range.

A further question, does anyone know if an Apostille Stamp has to be attached under these circumstances?

Regards

Edited April 5, 2010 by A_Traveller