Farang Hatred Of The Reds ?

[clockworkorange]

In the north and north-east, Thaksin is still popular. The rest of Thailand remains to be seen.

If the will of the rural masses is to bring back Thaksin, then we oppose that for sure.

We could speculate for ever about who is most popular, but only an election will prove one way or the other. If the majority of Thai people want to bring back Thaksin, then who are you to oppose them? They don't care what you do or do not oppose.

The Democrats to term date have had the strongest policy of clean politics since 2001.

By what measure? And besides, policy is just another example of talk. How do you know that they followed it, and that it wasn't just a facade to justify the fact that their position was illegitimate in the first place? Having done tainted deals with people like Newin, whom you concede to be corrupt, what makes you think that clean policy isn't just there to fool people like you?

Anti foreigner - Any examples? Can't say I've suffered personally.

The numerous visa and foreign business rule changes don't affect me either, but that doesn't alter the fact that they have affected a great deal of other foreign people who are trying to call Thailand home. Take a look through the visa and immigration section of this forum.

We have - Many old people there also. There's no excuse for using a manipulated audio clip to motivate people, whatever side of the fence you're on.

Who on earth does this 'we' refer to? Are you trying to kid me that you have some kind of influence? And did you go around calling people ignorant pawns? I dare you.

Edited April 7, 2010 by clockworkorange

[rixalex]

Fact: The red shirts admire and support Thaksin

Glad we can agree on something.

Fact: The red shirts cause represent the opinion of the rural masses

That is not a fact. The red shirt cause represents the opinion of the red shirt cause. Just because some supporters of the red shirt cause happen to be rural folk, doesn't give you or them the right to claim to be representing or speaking for all the millions of rural folk who have stayed at home.

Fact: By opposing the red shirts, posters are supporting the status quo, and opposing the will of the rural masses

Non sequitur i'm afraid. Opposing the red shirts has everything to do with opposing the return and whitewashing of a criminal, and nothing to with supporting anyone.

And to repeat, the red shirts might wish to claim themselves able to speak for millions of others, but it's a false claim they have no right to.

[Insight]

Who on earth does this 'we' refer to? Are you trying to kid me that you have some kind of influence? And did you go around calling people ignorant pawns? I dare you.

You "dare" me!!?!

I'm referring to me and my missus, who did you think? I know exactly how much of a voice I have here, thankyouverymuch.

Nice silly hard man routine you have there. I'll address your other points later.

[rixalex]

Fact: Many posters here lump the red shirts and Thaksin in the same bucket for obvious reasons, so it is perfectly reasonable to say that many posters hate red shirts and Thaksin in equal measure

Another non-fact. The red shirts and Thaksin are nowhere near in the same bucket. The red shirts are ordinary Thai people with ordinary lives. There's no reason to hate them. They are being used much like the rest of the country has been, for the benefit of one man.

[clockworkorange]

And to repeat, the red shirts might wish to claim themselves able to speak for millions of others, but it's a false claim they have no right to.

So hold an election then. If Abhisit really is so popular, then he has nothing to worry about and will keep his job with a popular mandate . Abhisit, armed with the mandate of the Thai people, would rightfully be in a position to rule. Thaksin and the reds would lose face in eveyone's eyes, not just yours, and would have no raison d'etre anymore. The problem would be solved, and should have been fought at the ballot box from the get go, if you believe in democratic values that is.

Conversely, if the majority want Thaksin back, then in a democracy that's what the majority are entitled to. You already conceded that all the Thai pollies are corrupt and horrid, but reality states that we can't put them all in jail, so why the focus on just one man?

[rixalex]

Fact: Thai politicians have never made any secret in their cravings for money and power, so why on earth single out just one as the focus of your attention? What about Newin, whose support Abhisit courted so that he could get installed as PM? Newin was banned from politics, remember? And there was ABhisit kissing his backside in the full view of the press. There was even a photo of Abhisit presenting a bunch of roses to Newin as soon as the deal was struck. Doesn't that seem rather odd to you? What about Saprang's 7.2 million Baht 'fact finding' junket with his cronies and family. Rather a lot of money and power flowing there too, perhaps?

Ask yourself the question, why does it bother you so much that Thaksin is the focus for a lot of people of everything that is wrong about Thai politics? You think it's not fair for him to be picked on? You think there are others worse? Fine then, as i told catmac, you go after them. Nobody is stopping you opening threads about those people to expose them for what they are. And when apologists come along to defend those bad people, you can accuse them of supporting criminality, as i accuse you now.

[clockworkorange]

Fact: Many posters here lump the red shirts and Thaksin in the same bucket for obvious reasons, so it is perfectly reasonable to say that many posters hate red shirts and Thaksin in equal measure

Another non-fact. The red shirts and Thaksin are nowhere near in the same bucket. The red shirts are ordinary Thai people with ordinary lives. There's no reason to hate them. They are being used much like the rest of the country has been, for the benefit of one man.

It's fun to discuss, and we could second guess why these 'pawns' as you so condescendingly call them are demonstrating. Only an election will give us a clear idea of what people really think. Abhisit's refusal to go to the people for a mandate makes one wonder whether he afraid that people don't like him ... How insecure he looks.

[rixalex]

And to repeat, the red shirts might wish to claim themselves able to speak for millions of others, but it's a false claim they have no right to.

So hold an election then. If Abhisit really is so popular, then he has nothing to worry about and will keep his job with a popular mandate . Abhisit, armed with the mandate of the Thai people, would rightfully be in a position to rule. Thaksin and the reds would lose face in eveyone's eyes, not just yours, and would have no raison d'etre anymore. The problem would be solved, and should have been fought at the ballot box from the get go, if you believe in democratic values that is.

Conversely, if the majority want Thaksin back, then in a democracy that's what the majority are entitled to. You already conceded that all the Thai pollies are corrupt and horrid, but reality states that we can't put them all in jail, so why the focus on just one man?

I agree totally that there should be an election, but i don't agree that a minority who have taken to the streets have any right to demand the date of that election. What's democratic about that? Nothing.

[clockworkorange]

Fact: Thai politicians have never made any secret in their cravings for money and power, so why on earth single out just one as the focus of your attention? What about Newin, whose support Abhisit courted so that he could get installed as PM? Newin was banned from politics, remember? And there was ABhisit kissing his backside in the full view of the press. There was even a photo of Abhisit presenting a bunch of roses to Newin as soon as the deal was struck. Doesn't that seem rather odd to you? What about Saprang's 7.2 million Baht 'fact finding' junket with his cronies and family. Rather a lot of money and power flowing there too, perhaps?

Ask yourself the question, why does it bother you so much that Thaksin is the focus for a lot of people of everything that is wrong about Thai politics? You think it's not fair for him to be picked on? You think there are others worse? Fine then, as i told catmac, you go after them. Nobody is stopping you opening threads about those people to expose them for what they are. And when apologists come along to defend those bad people, you can accuse them of supporting criminality, as i accuse you now.

I think taht we have all agreed elsewhere that they are all corrupt - you said so yourself. I think that we also realise that in a real world, especially in a developing country, corrupt pollies are pretty much normal and are tolerated because of the greater need for a government to manage the country.

Singling out Thaksin as the only target of an anti-corruption drive is just hypocritical nonsense, and goes against the sense of fair play that most Thais value. This obsession with one man as the root of all evil makes one wonder what the real motivations of this government are and what is being ignored or covered up in the process.

[rixalex]

Fact: The junta and Abhisit have made the average foreigner's life in Thailand a whole lot more difficult, through one xenophobic rule change after another. Why would any foreigner support such people? It beggars belief.

Nope. Personally speaking, i'm happy to say my life in Thailand for the last decade has been a very happy experience, and all the political nonsense has affected it not one bit.

But don't take my word for it - go down to Ratchaprasong and call a few red shirts 'pawns'. Tell them that they are ignorant and don't know what they really believe in. Then, post your experiences back here if you can still use a keyboard, why don't you?

What would that prove exactly? Nothing, except that walking up to strangers and calling them ignorant is both rude and stupid.

[clockworkorange]

I agree totally that there should be an election, but i don't agree that a minority who have taken to the streets have any right to demand the date of that election. What's democratic about that? Nothing.

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally. Has all this insanity been worth it, just to get rid of Thaksin who could have been voted out a the ballot box anyway?

Holding an election now, and giving Abhisit a mandate would (if Abhisit indeed got elected) cause the reds and Thaksin a massive loss of face and would justify strict measures to get them off the streets. Either way, the result of any election should be respected as the opinion of the general public and whoever the Thai people choose to be their master, even the devil himself, should not be then kicked out of office. Otherwise, this destructive cycle will of course continue indefinitely.

Why is Abhisit so insecure?

[slapout]

If an election, if patterned after past Thai elections 'will give us a clear idea of what people really think' we are in a world of hurt. An election if administrated as intended and the participants (voters/candidates) act in a responsible/corruption free manner, the mandate of the voters would/should be self evident. The history of Thai elections do not seem to follow this pattern, thus one of the reasons the country is where it is today.

[way2muchcoffee]

I agree totally that there should be an election, but i don't agree that a minority who have taken to the streets have any right to demand the date of that election. What's democratic about that? Nothing.

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally. Has all this insanity been worth it, just to get rid of Thaksin who could have been voted out a the ballot box anyway?

Holding an election now, and giving Abhisit a mandate would (if Abhisit indeed got elected) cause the reds and Thaksin a massive loss of face and would justify strict measures to get them off the streets. Either way, the result of any election should be respected as the opinion of the general public and whoever the Thai people choose to be their master, even the devil himself, should not be then kicked out of office. Otherwise, this destructive cycle will of course continue indefinitely.

Why is Abhisit so insecure?

What if the PTP cheats again? Should they be dissolved according to the constitution? There is every reason to believe that they will do so, fuelled by their current lawlessness and belief that they are above the law. This, along with their history, strongly suggests that the PTP have no intention of running a clean campaign.

And what about free campaigns? The threats of violence and actual violence the redshirts have inflicted on anyone with an opposing view are unacceptable, and there is no reason to expect anything will change in this respect. What kind of an election can be called free and fair if you aren't allowed to campaign in half of the country?

Edited April 7, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[rixalex]

I agree totally that there should be an election, but i don't agree that a minority who have taken to the streets have any right to demand the date of that election. What's democratic about that? Nothing.

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally. Has all this insanity been worth it, just to get rid of Thaksin who could have been voted out a the ballot box anyway?

Holding an election now, and giving Abhisit a mandate would (if Abhisit indeed got elected) cause the reds and Thaksin a massive loss of face and would justify strict measures to get them off the streets. Either way, the result of any election should be respected as the opinion of the general public and whoever the Thai people choose to be their master, even the devil himself, should not be then kicked out of office. Otherwise, this destructive cycle will of course continue indefinitely.

Why is Abhisit so insecure?

What you support is the destructive cycle continuing one last turn, in some sort of an attempt to redress the balance for what the yellows did. It's a complete nonsense that will never end with that sort of attitude.

[SAW]

I'm just popping our for breakfast by the beach then a little stroll in the sun.

[clockworkorange]

What if the PTP cheats again? Should they be dissolved according to the constitution? There is every reason to believe that they will do so, especially fuelled by their current lawlessness and belief that they are above the law. This along with their history strongly suggests that the PTP have no intention of running a clean campaign.

And what about free campaigns? The threats of violence and actual violence the redshirts have inflicted on anyone with an opposing view are unacceptable and there is no reason to expect anything will change in this respect. What kind of an election can be called free and fair if you aren't allowed to campaign in half of the country?

Plenty of problems from your side, but no solutions. Democracy is not a perfect system, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be another that doesn't involve dictators.

You are saying that Abhist should rule forever, simply because you like him and hold the opposition in low regard. How democratic is that?

[rixalex]

I'm just popping our for breakfast by the beach then a little stroll in the sun.

OK. Be sure to keep us posted.

[Gary A]

The Thai politicians are incredibly corrupt. That's just the way of life here. Thaksin shortened the feed trough and made powerful enemies, they hate him because he is smarter than the rest of them. There is no doubt that he is corrupt too, but he made most of his thievery legal. The biggest shame is that he is the only one they have prosecuted.

My wife and my educated best Thai male friend were yellow shirts up here where the vast majority are red shirts. I say they WERE yellow shirts. At his point they support nether side and are totally disgusted with Thai politics. My Thai friend says that corruption will take many years to cure and even IF the Thai people want to fix the problem it would take generations. Both he and my wife are of the opinion that it makes no difference who is elected.

I am of the opinion that it would be best if Thaksin were out of the way, one way or another and new elections were held. Unfortunately if the wrong party is elected again, there will be another coup and ANOTHER new constitution. The poor people are sick of being taken advantage of by the elite and their middlemen and the elite are still powerful enough to control the government. Politics change but the situation still stays the same.

Only the Thai Visa farang political experts hate the red shirts. Don't expect the red shirts to go away anytime soon. The drought upcountry is VERY severe and there is no reason for the farmers to go home. The dry weather only increases the amount of people able to demonstrate. The drought certainly is not the government's fault but it will cause the government to fall. Fortunately, so far, the government is smart enough to NOT use force to disband them.

[philw]

I agree totally that there should be an election, but i don't agree that a minority who have taken to the streets have any right to demand the date of that election. What's democratic about that? Nothing.

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally. Has all this insanity been worth it, just to get rid of Thaksin who could have been voted out a the ballot box anyway?

Holding an election now, and giving Abhisit a mandate would (if Abhisit indeed got elected) cause the reds and Thaksin a massive loss of face and would justify strict measures to get them off the streets. Either way, the result of any election should be respected as the opinion of the general public and whoever the Thai people choose to be their master, even the devil himself, should not be then kicked out of office. Otherwise, this destructive cycle will of course continue indefinitely.

Why is Abhisit so insecure?

Great logical stuff, man !!!

We all know what cannot be admitted, that the Dems would lose...........................

If they lose, that would probably presage another coup of probably much longer duration in order to secure the succession etc..........

ph

[clockworkorange]

What you support is the destructive cycle continuing one last turn, in some sort of an attempt to redress the balance for what the yellows did. It's a complete nonsense that will never end with that sort of attitude.

Nowhere in my post did I say that I support a destructive cycle, only that one does indeed exist and has done for some years now, Your argument seems to have degenerated into inventing things that I said now.

What I did say was that an election where Abhisit won a popular mandate would help matters a great deal. The reds would lose face enormously, and strict measures would be justified to get them off the streets. Internationally, Abhisit could resume his Thaksin hunting with renewed vigour, without the nagging doubt that people do not believe he has popular support.

Why isn't Abhisit able to get that mandate, that would put some real power behind him? In his wavering he is coming across as weak and ineffectual, which is the last thing that Thailand needs right now.

[way2muchcoffee]

What if the PTP cheats again? Should they be dissolved according to the constitution? There is every reason to believe that they will do so, especially fuelled by their current lawlessness and belief that they are above the law. This along with their history strongly suggests that the PTP have no intention of running a clean campaign.

And what about free campaigns? The threats of violence and actual violence the redshirts have inflicted on anyone with an opposing view are unacceptable and there is no reason to expect anything will change in this respect. What kind of an election can be called free and fair if you aren't allowed to campaign in half of the country?

Plenty of problems from your side, but no solutions. Democracy is not a perfect system, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be another that doesn't involve dictators.

You are saying that Abhist should rule forever, simply because you like him and hold the opposition in low regard. How democratic is that?

Both of those issues are decidedly for 'your side' to address. The inability of you or the redshirt leaders to address or offer solution to two of the most pertinent objections to holding immediate elections speaks volumes.

The demand for house dissolution is ill thought out. It appears that nobody on the redshirt side bothers to think about the consequences or the very real issues that house dissolution will create. They want what they want and they want it now, health of the country and long-term consequences be damned.

Edited April 7, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[clockworkorange]

Fact: The junta and Abhisit have made the average foreigner's life in Thailand a whole lot more difficult, through one xenophobic rule change after another. Why would any foreigner support such people? It beggars belief.

Nope. Personally speaking, i'm happy to say my life in Thailand for the last decade has been a very happy experience, and all the political nonsense has affected it not one bit.

But don't take my word for it - go down to Ratchaprasong and call a few red shirts 'pawns'. Tell them that they are ignorant and don't know what they really believe in. Then, post your experiences back here if you can still use a keyboard, why don't you?

What would that prove exactly? Nothing, except that walking up to strangers and calling them ignorant is both rude and stupid.

I'm alright Jack. Spare a thought for the poor souls who post in the visa and immigration section of this forum. Many of them are being squeezed out by Abhsit's rule changes

And you don't have any problem calling people pawns behind their backs. Yet you hold the view that calling them pawns to their faces in rude. So much for having the courage of your convictions.

[rixalex]

We all know what cannot be admitted, that the Dems would lose...........................

As would all the parties, going by the last election.

Would come down to which big party could offer the most enticing sweetners to the small ones.

[clockworkorange]

Great logical stuff, man !!!

We all know what cannot be admitted, that the Dems would lose...........................

Right - you spotted the elephant in the room. You could be forgiven for thinking that the Dems aren't very good at winning elections these days. They lay themselves wide open to accusations from the reds that the only way for the Dems to get their noses in the trough is to get installed there by influential powers that be, disregarding the will of the people, and by forging alliances with crooks like Newin. The result? Powerless coalitions that get nothing done and don't impress the voters anymore.

All the while calling themselves clean and democratic of course.

Edited April 7, 2010 by clockworkorange

[rixalex]

What you support is the destructive cycle continuing one last turn, in some sort of an attempt to redress the balance for what the yellows did. It's a complete nonsense that will never end with that sort of attitude.

Nowhere in my post did I say that I support a destructive cycle, only that one does indeed exist and has done for some years now, Your argument seems to have degenerated into inventing things that I said now.

I didn't invent it, it's exactly what you said.

[clockworkorange]

What you support is the destructive cycle continuing one last turn, in some sort of an attempt to redress the balance for what the yellows did. It's a complete nonsense that will never end with that sort of attitude.

Nowhere in my post did I say that I support a destructive cycle, only that one does indeed exist and has done for some years now, Your argument seems to have degenerated into inventing things that I said now.

I didn't invent it, it's exactly what you said.

You are lying now. Quote me please. The part where I said that I supported a destructive cycle.

[rixalex]

I'm alright Jack. Spare a thought for the poor souls who post in the visa and immigration section of this forum. Many of them are being squeezed out by Abhsit's rule changes

You'll find that whoever is in power, there will be some squeezed out and others welcomed in. Most expats worries at the moment however aren't rule changes but exchange rates.

[LindsayBKK]

There seems to be many Farangs in this Forum calling for the government to act against the redshirts now, in anyway they choose.

Yes because the red shirts are acting illegally.

There are thousands of women and children amongst the redshirts, would you enjoy seeing slaughtered women and children ?

yes what are the kids doing there ? They have no idea and will only believe what you tell them, not the truth.

Would you then start threads about how useless the government are and how wrong it was to use force to break up the redshirts ?

You don't seem concerned about tourists who make Thailand's economy better do you?

Thankfully Thai politicians are more thoughtful and less violence prone than many of the posters here would like them to be.

Abhisit is being kind yes for now but who knows for how long. He is giving Red Shirts time, lucky them. Would China be so kind?

The vast majority of the reds are peacefully protesting, as is their right.

I am sorry but how many Police were injured yesterday? And a missile shot into a Police Bus? Oh forgot that one didn't you?

Protesting is NOT on Motorbikes and blocking streets. Walking with Banners and getting government permission first yes.

if you take away that right by force, disaster is waiting.

That's up to the red shirts

Let the Thai people sort out their own problems, Farangs don't have any influence at all, and let's face it, most of our home countries are a complete mess themselves, that's why we are here.

It wasn't a problem until the Red Shirts started one. And we have businesses here, tourism, embassy staff, Also we have money in your country, do not tell us it's not our business sweetie!

I know its a discussion forum, but some posters appear to want a violent end of the reds protest.

It's a means to an end. But nobody like violence as much as The Red Shirts have shown.

Thank god these Farangs are not in charge of Thailand.

Yes thank god, we just live here.

If the Red leaders had a mandate and in that mandate they promised to allow Farangs much more favourable visa regulations, land ownership, the right to vote etc etc etc, you'd probably all be wearing redshirts yourselves. smile.gif

No becauce the their leader is a guy who doesn't pay taxes, buys/sells land with Government money and puts in his name.

We would still have to pay tax. Democracy is not changing rules to benefit your own pocket and power.

Of course this never gonna happen, so why the call for breaking up a mainly peaceful protest ?

Because it's Illegal! Oh as well as distortion of the truth. Red Shirt leaders lying to people supporting them.

Edited April 7, 2010 by LindsayBKK

[rixalex]

You are lying now. Quote me please. The part where I said that I supported a destructive cycle.

I'm not lying. The meaning of your post below is very clear: the yellows got away with pressuring a government out of office, and so now the reds should also get their way.

This is mob rule. This is supporting the destructive cycle.

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally. Has all this insanity been worth it, just to get rid of Thaksin who could have been voted out a the ballot box anyway?

Holding an election now, and giving Abhisit a mandate would (if Abhisit indeed got elected) cause the reds and Thaksin a massive loss of face and would justify strict measures to get them off the streets. Either way, the result of any election should be respected as the opinion of the general public and whoever the Thai people choose to be their master, even the devil himself, should not be then kicked out of office. Otherwise, this destructive cycle will of course continue indefinitely.

[colinscarr]

With all the argument over who is or is not popular and/or democratic, I have a hazy memory that had Thaksin not been deposed by the Sept 2006 coup, he was planning to introduce a scheme that October or November that would have made him and the Thai Rak Thai government 'fireproof'. Can someone remind me what that was please?