Top Army, Navy Units Readied For Red-Shirts Dispersal

[whybother]

Churchill was indeed the greatest of war leaders - and you (dobadoy) are right crap in peacetime - he just didn't know when to go. Leadership is like that - different 'types' for differing situations - there is no 'one-size-fits-all'. Abhisit shows some managerial skills but no leadership skills - IMO.

Agreed 100%, CMF. The only reason I used Churchill as an example was that his name had come up here recently (when rather than "harp on about him" I pointed out his responsibility for Gallipoli as First Lord of the Admiralty).

Had I used Gandhi, whom dobadoy mentioned, I could have cited his poor academic record and that, despite qualifying as a barrister (just) at University College, London, his law practice in Mumbai failed, as did his attempt at teaching, and his subseqent law practice in Rajkot.

A better example, and one without any British education, would be Lech Walesa who successfully led the Poles to democracy despite never even attending high school.

As for Abhisit, I have nothing against him, as I have previously said, and under other circumstances he would probably have made an adequate but unmemorable PM, but he can barely lead and certainly cannot control his own shaky coalition, let alone a divided country.

He seems to have the coalition and army behind him at the moment.

The last 4 PMs (incl. Abhisit) have all had problems controlling a divided country.

Edited April 25, 2010 by whybother

[JohnLeech]

The last 4 PMs (incl. Abhisit) have all had problems controlling a divided country.

I think the one before those four (not counting those who led or were installed by the military coup) had a few problems too!

[whybother]

The last 4 PMs (incl. Abhisit) have all had problems controlling a divided country.

I think the one before those four (not counting those who led or were installed by the military coup) had a few problems too!

So, the country is divided, and it has been for a long time.

Will snap elections fix that?

[JohnLeech]

So, the country is divided, and it has been for a long time.

Will snap elections fix that?

In a word, no - it will inevitably just mean more of the same.

If I knew what would "fix" it I would probably be getting enormously overpaid at the UN instead of being retired here - or, on the other hand, maybe that would make me totally unsuitable for a top UN position.

[lannarebirth]

So, the country is divided, and it has been for a long time.

Will snap elections fix that?

In a word, no - it will inevitably just mean more of the same.

If I knew what would "fix" it I would probably be getting enormously overpaid at the UN instead of being retired here - or, on the other hand, maybe that would make me totally unsuitable for a top UN position.

The "fix" lies in the evolution in Thai society and culture. That evolution must be aided by good central policy, checks and balances, the rule of law, and equal enforcement of that law. IMO this administration, with all its flaws, is dedicated to being a part of that evolution. I just don't see any other viable alternatives to it on the horizon. Ironically, the success of this administration, now and maybe in the eventual next election, may give impetus to others in other parties to come up with candidates and policies not based on authoritarianism and patronage. I live in hope.

Edited April 25, 2010 by lannarebirth

[Publicus]

So, the country is divided, and it has been for a long time.

Will snap elections fix that?

In a word, no - it will inevitably just mean more of the same.

If I knew what would "fix" it I would probably be getting enormously overpaid at the UN instead of being retired here - or, on the other hand, maybe that would make me totally unsuitable for a top UN position.

The "fix" lies in the evolution in Thai society and culture. That evolution must be aided by good central policy, checks and balances, the rule of law, and equal enforcement of that law. IMO this administration, with all its flaws, is dedicated to being a part of that evolution. I just don't see any other viable alternatives to it on the horizon. Ironically, the success of this administration, now and maybe in the eventual next election, may give impetus to others in other parties to come up with candidates and policies not based on authoritarianism and patronage. I live in hope.

It's clear and obvious Thais can't do it on their own, they've demonstrated and proved time and again they're incapable - there just isn't any Aung San Suu Ky in Thailand nor is it possible. Abhisit is the first best suggestion that such an evolution could be possible but even then all the stars would need to be aligned perfectly and for a long time. Abhisit's strength is his Brit experience and the fact he's Thai.....the king was born and lived his early years in the USA (next door to my hometown Boston) and has had the reputation as a democratic constitutional monarch, so it's clear that the kind of foreign UK/USA experience each had the benefit of in their youth is a prerequisite to creating a Thai who is necessary different than the inevitable and eternal incestuously produced crowd of tribal politicians corporate leaders and leaders of other Thai tribal traditional institutions and society.

Abhisit's coalition a year from now can emerge ahead in a GE for any number of reasons but longevity would be at the forefront of any analysis. A snap election would open the electoral processes and democracy itself to the win by hook or by crook terrorism of the Redshirts seizing masses of votes by intimidation, cash, threats, the guarantee of violence and, I'm certain, numerous deaths. The outcome of such a snap election would not be acceptable either, whether domesticly or abroad.

As for Churchill and Abhisit - yes, Churchill and Abhisit - when Chamberlain quit the king called on Churchill to form a wartime coalition government.....no snap election was called to get a mandate for a new government in the eventful face of a new and yet another European war (a retread of the war of a generation earlier). Abhisit was chosen by the parliament and accepted by higher authority in much the same manner, but in Abhisit's instance at the early stages of the clear suggestions of a looming incipient civil war, which brings us to where we are in the present.

None the less, I maintain that the present question of how to deal effectively with the Redshirts continues to remain unresolved because while on television we saw the pair of Anupong and Abhisit, they between them don't have a pair to deal with Thaksin and his Redshirt captains.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Publicus

[michaelbale]

So, the country is divided, and it has been for a long time.

Will snap elections fix that?

In a word, no - it will inevitably just mean more of the same.

If I knew what would "fix" it I would probably be getting enormously overpaid at the UN instead of being retired here - or, on the other hand, maybe that would make me totally unsuitable for a top UN position.

The "fix" lies in the evolution in Thai society and culture. That evolution must be aided by good central policy, checks and balances, the rule of law, and equal enforcement of that law. IMO this administration, with all its flaws, is dedicated to being a part of that evolution. I just don't see any other viable alternatives to it on the horizon. Ironically, the success of this administration, now and maybe in the eventual next election, may give impetus to others in other parties to come up with candidates and policies not based on authoritarianism and patronage. I live in hope.

It's clear and obvious Thais can't do it on their own, they've demonstrated and proved time and again they're incapable - there just isn't any Aung San Suu Ky in Thailand nor is it possible. Abhisit is the first best suggestion that such an evolution could be possible but even then all the stars would need to be aligned perfectly and for a long time. Abhisit's strength is his Brit experience and the fact he's Thai.....the king was born and lived his early years in the USA (next door to my hometown Boston) and has had the reputation as a democratic constitutional monarch, so it's clear that the kind of foreign UK/USA experience each had the benefit of in their youth is a prerequisite to creating a Thai who is necessary different than the inevitable and eternal incestuously produced crowd of tribal politicians corporate leaders and leaders of other Thai tribal traditional institutions and society.

Abhisit's coalition a year from now can emerge ahead in a GE for any number of reasons but longevity would be at the forefront of any analysis. A snap election would open the electoral processes and democracy itself to the win by hook or by crook terrorism of the Redshirts seizing masses of votes by intimidation, cash, threats, the guarantee of violence and, I'm certain, numerous deaths. The outcome of such a snap election would not be acceptable either, whether domesticly or abroad.

As for Churchill and Abhisit - yes, Churchill and Abhisit - when Chamberlain quit the king called on Churchill to form a wartime coalition government.....no snap election was called to get a mandate for a new government in the eventful face of a new and yet another European war (a retread of the war of a generation earlier). Abhisit was chosen by the parliament and accepted by higher authority in much the same manner, but in Abhisit's instance at the early stages of the clear suggestions of a looming incipient civil war, which brings us to where we are in the present.

None the less, I maintain that the present question of how to deal effectively with the Redshirts continues to remain unresolved because while on television we saw the pair of Anupong and Abhisit, they between them don't have a pair to deal with Thaksin and his Redshirt captains.

Another intelligent post Publicus thank you,a rarity on this site recently and i for one as well as my northern based wife and family hope that he is able to show,why we believe he can be the finest Prime Minister this country had to date.

Many policies that he has implemented already ,and some that are to be passed when the parliament is allowed to do its job again will benefit all Thai people from poorer areas.

A system that does not mean the local headman ,handing out a few baht to the disaffected at polling time.

Why are they blaming everyone else ,when the people really stealing their future as far as i have witnessed in the many years living in the north and bangkok, are there own people and so called local leaders from whatever party that may be.

Its sadly a well acknowledged fact that the major part of funding from ANY central government to most provinces of Thailand is skimmed away,and has been by local leaders for years.

The same local leaders who are there to distribute it to the people, not to further their own families greed and status.

It would seem to anyone who is in fact impartial is that this government,far from denying the rights of the poor is implementing transparency laws and far more defining long term benefits that any appointed Thaksin government or clone would ever implement.

Those same people that are now behind the red shirts financially ,are aware that as transparency laws are being implemented by this government,their ability to rob the people they are supposedly representing will be diminished.

As will there power over the local people.

There will be the usual deluded foreign supporters of the red shirts here ,that no doubt can come up with the many benefits that have come from the policies of the Thaksin administration to the disaffected.

And they could be right,one forever etched on my memory and a no finer example can i find of Thaksins great social welfare projects and consideration for the poor.

This one consisted of him walking around a few villages with all the tv cameras on him ,handing out thousand baht notes to the people which were effectively old people,they in turn were kissing his hand and showing absolute servitude to him,very sad for anyone to see and as this was from the so called Prime Minister who is elected to lead his people not to humiliate them.

He reveled in this performance as if he were some sort of demigod,and he did that day after day for a week..

All for the cameras,it was odious to see ,but that was the standard of leadership that as a self projected despot he had excelled at.

Of all his so called projects,none of them were sustainable and all of them were just disguised to give the poor short term handouts and important to note, keep it that way so they would continue to be reliant on their masters namely of course Thaksin and his appointed disciples especially at election time.

If that is what the red supportes on this forum call democracy and leadership,then i pity them.

I would suggest if the red shirts truly want to find out who is stunting the growth of their children and has given them little opportunities over the years,then they need to look a lot closer to home.

Its the so called leaders on that stage,and people like them who have stolen your future,so go home ,demand it back and elect people who will be there in parliament not to further their own careers and their families wealth ,or to give you handouts that will have no positive effect on your children's lives.

But will be there to implement laws that are fair and just for all of the people in Thailand.

Is that not what you are fighting for?

[Publicus]

While an elected official of a government must care for the particular constituent electors, and while the appointed official of a governement must responsibly discharge his/her required ministerial duties faithfully and without purpose of evasion, all above everything else must have the interests of the nation first and foremost - and to care for and secure the well being of the country in international affairs and relations.

This is Thailand's central failure. Its elected corporate leaders are akin to the US turn of the 20th century tycoon John D. Rockefeller who drove through the streets of the working poor tossing handsful of dimes to spin his moneybags image into that of a kind and generous benefactor in the most cynical of manners. Rockefeller ultimately was humbled by the Supreme Court when it ruled that his Standard Oil Co monopoly was unconstitutional and it was dispersed. Conversely Thaksin bought his Constitutional Court ruling in his favor to create his own monopoly over the country by establishing the unlimited endless greed of Thaksin-Thailand Inc.

The country can't get from Thaksin to democracy, from Thaksin to a more equal and just society. Paternalism and cynicism make it not only impossible, they make it inconceivable.

[ozzieman05]

I am Farang

But I have a Thai wife, and a daughter with my Thai wife

She has a house in Thailand

This gives me no right, to want, or ask for any say in what goes on in Thailand

This is her country, and her culture, so my comments most of the time up set her

The reds are reds and the yellows are yellows

Every day I see both side set prescidents that the other side feel they have the right to follow

I call it saving face, Farang call it Double standards

The reds have set themselves up as, Police Judge and Jury

Right or wrong this is a Thai thing

"Till the death" they scream, again up to you

But one thing the wife and I agree on

If they want to place themselves in a suicidal porsition and die for their cause, it is their right

But any person male or female. who places the life of a child who is innocent of all reasoning

Knowing that sooner or later there is a good chance of a crack down and that there is also a good chance there child will be hurt, scarred for life or be killed, is the lowest of all animals to crawl the face of this earth

My inner instincts are to protect the innocent life of my child, and my Thai wife says this is also the way of real Thais

Again I am not commenting on the Thai fight for their rights to have democracy

But the fact they are prepared to sacrifice the lives of their children should be deplored by any self thinking, educated person

In my home and circle of Thai friends, The red shirts have lost any small chance of respect, and the above is the reason

Time to shut shop and go home

Give Peace a chance, what good is a better Thailand if your kids are not alive to experience it

[brahmburgers]

Never heard from shot on the spot if not obeying orders from CO.s in comabat.

I don't think there have been any reports of the rank and file disobeying orders so far....

You either haven't been following the news stories, or you and I get completely different messages on what we read. There have been glaring reports of rank and file disobeying orders. Soldiers were ordered from afar to report to a post. Those soldiers were commandeered by civilians (Reds in Kon Kaen) and wound up disobeying orders.

There have also been stories of other groups of soldiers & security personnel, both within Bangkok and stationed on the approaches to Bangkok which have disobeyed orders.

It should be interesting to see the disciplinary repercussions of these things when the smoke clears - after the protesters are cleared out. Will all be forgiven by top brass, or will soldiers and officers be disciplined for disobeying orders? Time will tell.

There's a little story of an American sargaent who went to a key outpost in Kosovo, right after the Americans took control of that city from the Serbians. A Serbian captain in the outpost told the American to leave his post. The American told the Serbian, "You have no post. Get out of here." I don't know if either drew a firearm, but the Serbian and his soldiers left immediately, and that was the end of that scenario.

That's how the military is supposed to work. Often there are clear cut protocols. If a group of soldiers are assigned something specific (such as traveling from one post to another), they do what they're ordered to do. If a bunch of red flag waving civilians tell them to do something different, those soldiers don't just lay down their weapons and acquiesce. Perhaps there was comaraderie or shouted threats from the rabble, or some familiar faces in the Red crowd, but those aren't compelling reasons to disobey orders. If the transport vehicle is impeded, the soldiers do what they can to enable the vehicle to proceed. If members of the rabble insist on getting aboard the transport to ensure the soldiers go where the rabble want them to go, the soldiers can say 'heck no' this is a troop transport and we won't be commandeered by others.

What would a Thai troop transport say to a group of 200 farang who flagged them down and demanded they change their itinerary? The farang phlanx might say, "hey guys, you don't have to wear uniforms and carry weapons and act all tough and serious. How about you chill out and we all go down to Pattaya for some booze and chicks? Sound like a better idea, eh?"

[321niti123]

Hopefully this unit has better training than those low quality police that let arisman escape dangling from a rope

[dobadoy]

Another intelligent post Publicus thank you,a rarity on this site recently and i for one as well as my northern based wife and family hope that he [Abhisit] is able to show,why we believe he can be the finest Prime Minister this country had to date.

Many policies that he has implemented already ,and some that are to be passed when the parliament is allowed to do its job again will benefit all Thai people from poorer areas.

A system that does not mean the local headman ,handing out a few baht to the disaffected at polling time.

Why are they blaming everyone else ,when the people really stealing their future as far as i have witnessed in the many years living in the north and bangkok, are there own people and so called local leaders from whatever party that may be.

Its sadly a well acknowledged fact that the major part of funding from ANY central government to most provinces of Thailand is skimmed away,and has been by local leaders for years.

The same local leaders who are there to distribute it to the people, not to further their own families greed and status.

It would seem to anyone who is in fact impartial is that this government,far from denying the rights of the poor is implementing transparency laws and far more defining long term benefits that any appointed Thaksin government or clone would ever implement.

Those same people that are now behind the red shirts financially ,are aware that as transparency laws are being implemented by this government,their ability to rob the people they are supposedly representing will be diminished.

As will there power over the local people.

There will be the usual deluded foreign supporters of the red shirts here ,that no doubt can come up with the many benefits that have come from the policies of the Thaksin administration to the disaffected.

And they could be right,one forever etched on my memory and a no finer example can i find of Thaksins great social welfare projects and consideration for the poor.

This one consisted of him walking around a few villages with all the tv cameras on him ,handing out thousand baht notes to the people which were effectively old people,they in turn were kissing his hand and showing absolute servitude to him,very sad for anyone to see and as this was from the so called Prime Minister who is elected to lead his people not to humiliate them.

He reveled in this performance as if he were some sort of demigod,and he did that day after day for a week..

All for the cameras,it was odious to see ,but that was the standard of leadership that as a self projected despot he had excelled at.

Of all his so called projects,none of them were sustainable and all of them were just disguised to give the poor short term handouts and important to note, keep it that way so they would continue to be reliant on their masters namely of course Thaksin and his appointed disciples especially at election time.

If that is what the red supportes on this forum call democracy and leadership,then i pity them.

I would suggest if the red shirts truly want to find out who is stunting the growth of their children and has given them little opportunities over the years,then they need to look a lot closer to home.

Its the so called leaders on that stage,and people like them who have stolen your future,so go home ,demand it back and elect people who will be there in parliament not to further their own careers and their families wealth ,or to give you handouts that will have no positive effect on your children's lives.

But will be there to implement laws that are fair and just for all of the people in Thailand.

Is that not what you are fighting for?

Brilliant post Michael; one that deserves to be widely read.

Edited April 26, 2010 by dobadoy

[Chaimai]

Re: Thaksin...,handing out thousand baht notes to the people which were effectively old people,they in turn were kissing his hand and showing absolute servitude to him,

mother-in-Law does the same to me.

I guess that I, like Thaksin, learned quickly how to get on the right side of poor, Northern villagers.

[animatic]

If a country votes on leaders based on being simply identified with the common man,

then they get leaders like George Bush.

Y'all remember how well that good ole boy did in the top chair????

Or the oh so effective Samak the outspoken tough guy.

Please cher Rhodes list for me the public works, treaties and effective legislation

that Kuhn Samak presided over during his 8 months a PM.

A country MUST elect leaders who can work with other government leaders,

work cross border and cross culturally for the betterment of ALL citizens.

Deal with captains of industry to bring their jobs to Thailand, international banking,

communications, transport, maritime... this list of knowledge to be assimilated and decided on is staggering

Because bottom line.

Your father in law may be a lovely hard working man,

but do you REALLY think he could run a country?

Any of his circle of friends?

A country that wants to resemble democracy in any form MUST be allowed to vote in whomever they wish. They need to be allowed to make their own mistakes. The USA didn't form a military or judicial coup to get rid of Bush, we had to wait it out (8 years).

If Bush had been breaking laws he would have been removed and held accountable through the courts and constitution. Which in the US does not get rewritten anytime a new power decides it needs to.

You represent your position well and I know many million in the country feel your way.

But the viewpoint of we know better then the guy on the bottom of the ladder is anti-democratic

and has much to do with where Thais find themselves tonight.

You realize you are talking to a registered New Hampshire Republican right?

I am of the feeling Bush did break laws, but there wasn't enough evidence

and/or will to find enough to prosecute him adequately.

The Bush machine was too big to beat.

No it isn't the guy at the bottom of the ladder being the problem,

it is the guy complacent enough to allow others to dictate their reality to them,

or just go for 'the guy they can identify with'; Aahh like his SMILE, I'll vote for him!

Regardless of qualifications or ability.

Sure letting that just happen is 'pure democracy', but it is also democracy without mind engaged.

It is democracy dictated similarly to how the Reds are trying to control the minds of Issan folk.

FoxNews ≅ People TV.. same same, just different text font and language.

Democracy carries with it a requirement and responsibility to engage you brain prior to voting.

I vote in Republican Primaries early on in New Hampshire because this party needs

the most serious common sense injection just at that time. Even from over here I have to.

I think the view point that we as individuals might know better than some others,

is endemic to the human condition. All people have different experiences and learning.

If I am on a boat, I don't want the most affable guy on board chosen Capitan,

I want the person who knows the ship, navigation and the sea lanes. End of story.

There are some situations 'pure democracy' is NOT GOOD.

I can't say I am better than anyone else, but I know I am better at certain jobs than most.

I don't think I can say I would make a better PM.

But I know I would be better than several people I know.

I think I can tell a better PM from an lesser PM better than some,

but not all people.

There are people on this forum I can imagine doing well in a government,

and others who would make me leave the country within hours if I thought they might control my life.

Because it is obvious they have no skills for the job at all and a bad attitude to boot.

[animatic]

Abhisit is detritus that must be swept away immediately.

Abhsit won't go yet - he has promised hard-liner Payuth the top army job after Anupong retires on September 30th. Having a hawk in charge of the army will consolidate Abhisit's power base some more, not that he is a dictator in the making, of course. Naturally, this transition may not go according to plan if the house is dissolved beforehand.

As far as the smug coward Abhisit is concerned, he would rather let people die on the streets than upset his cozy relationship with the army. Smells like corruption, but the yellows fall for the propaganda.

Thaksin apologist worried that Thaksin cannot put in his family/cronies into the army leadership and lock down the state.

The reason for the red violence organised by Thaksin in the first place.

Nothing like the cozy smell of Thaksin's cash.

But the numbers are going down Droog.

What stunt next the reds can blame others for?

Thaksin, Thaksin... lalala any other song?

A well reasoned and analytical response... or not.

[animatic]

Another intelligent post Publicus thank you,a rarity on this site recently and i for one as well as my northern based wife and family hope that he [Abhisit] is able to show,why we believe he can be the finest Prime Minister this country had to date.

Many policies that he has implemented already ,and some that are to be passed when the parliament is allowed to do its job again will benefit all Thai people from poorer areas.

A system that does not mean the local headman ,handing out a few baht to the disaffected at polling time.

Why are they blaming everyone else ,when the people really stealing their future as far as i have witnessed in the many years living in the north and bangkok, are there own people and so called local leaders from whatever party that may be.

Its sadly a well acknowledged fact that the major part of funding from ANY central government to most provinces of Thailand is skimmed away,and has been by local leaders for years.

The same local leaders who are there to distribute it to the people, not to further their own families greed and status.

It would seem to anyone who is in fact impartial is that this government,far from denying the rights of the poor is implementing transparency laws and far more defining long term benefits that any appointed Thaksin government or clone would ever implement.

Those same people that are now behind the red shirts financially ,are aware that as transparency laws are being implemented by this government,their ability to rob the people they are supposedly representing will be diminished.

As will there power over the local people.

There will be the usual deluded foreign supporters of the red shirts here ,that no doubt can come up with the many benefits that have come from the policies of the Thaksin administration to the disaffected.

And they could be right,one forever etched on my memory and a no finer example can i find of Thaksins great social welfare projects and consideration for the poor.

This one consisted of him walking around a few villages with all the tv cameras on him ,handing out thousand baht notes to the people which were effectively old people,they in turn were kissing his hand and showing absolute servitude to him,very sad for anyone to see and as this was from the so called Prime Minister who is elected to lead his people not to humiliate them.

He reveled in this performance as if he were some sort of demigod,and he did that day after day for a week..

All for the cameras,it was odious to see ,but that was the standard of leadership that as a self projected despot he had excelled at.

Of all his so called projects,none of them were sustainable and all of them were just disguised to give the poor short term handouts and important to note, keep it that way so they would continue to be reliant on their masters namely of course Thaksin and his appointed disciples especially at election time.

If that is what the red supportes on this forum call democracy and leadership,then i pity them.

I would suggest if the red shirts truly want to find out who is stunting the growth of their children and has given them little opportunities over the years,then they need to look a lot closer to home.

Its the so called leaders on that stage,and people like them who have stolen your future,so go home ,demand it back and elect people who will be there in parliament not to further their own careers and their families wealth ,or to give you handouts that will have no positive effect on your children's lives.

But will be there to implement laws that are fair and just for all of the people in Thailand.

Is that not what you are fighting for?

Brilliant post Michael; one that deserves to be widely read.

Seconded.

Glad Pub inspired you.

I know him personally,

and he is that kind of guy in real life.

[animatic]

...Abhisit's coalition a year from now can emerge ahead in a GE for any number of reasons but longevity would be at the forefront of any analysis. A snap election would open the electoral processes and democracy itself to the win by hook or by crook terrorism of the Redshirts seizing masses of votes by intimidation, cash, threats, the guarantee of violence and, I'm certain, numerous deaths. The outcome of such a snap election would not be acceptable either, whether domesticly or abroad.

As for Churchill and Abhisit - yes, Churchill and Abhisit -

when Chamberlain quit the king called on Churchill to form a wartime coalition government.....

no snap election was called to get a mandate for a new government in the eventful face of a new and yet another European war

(a retread of the war of a generation earlier).

Abhisit was chosen by the parliament and accepted by higher authority in much the same manner,

but in Abhisit's instance at the early stages of the clear suggestions of a looming incipient civil war,

which brings us to where we are in the present.

None the less, I maintain that the present question of how to deal effectively with the Redshirts

continues to remain unresolved because while on television we saw the pair of Anupong and Abhisit,

they between them don't have a pair to deal with Thaksin and his Redshirt captains.

Always a pleasure to quote you my friend. Spot on.

[JohnLeech]

Never heard from shot on the spot if not obeying orders from CO.s in comabat.

I don't think there have been any reports of the rank and file disobeying orders so far....

You either haven't been following the news stories, or you and I get completely different messages on what we read. There have been glaring reports of rank and file disobeying orders. Soldiers were ordered from afar to report to a post. Those soldiers were commandeered by civilians (Reds in Kon Kaen) and wound up disobeying orders.

There have also been stories of other groups of soldiers & security personnel, both within Bangkok and stationed on the approaches to Bangkok which have disobeyed orders.

Completely different messages - I prefer accurate and specific reports, not just "stories".

There's a little story of an American sargaent who went to a key outpost in Kosovo, right after the Americans took control of that city from the Serbians. A Serbian captain in the outpost told the American to leave his post. The American told the Serbian, "You have no post. Get out of here." I don't know if either drew a firearm, but the Serbian and his soldiers left immediately, and that was the end of that scenario.

Another apocryphal "story", I am afraid, with absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever; you appear to be taking a leaf out of Publicus' and Animatic's book. No Americans "took control of that city (Kosovo) from the Serbians". KFOR (the Russian Kosovo Force) had already taken over Kosovo and Pristina airport from the Serbs before any UN troops arrived, and the first UN troops to enter Kosovo were from the British Army's Life Guards, led by then Lieutenant (Acting Captain) James Blount (now better known as James Blunt).

As for the troop train incident, neither you nor I have any idea what orders the troops in question were given, nor what their rules of engagement were, so any comment would be nothing more than uninformed speculation.... and "the military", anywhere, do not operate under "clear cut protocols" but according to SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) depending on the situation - again, neither of us know what SOPs they were told to operate to.

[jcbangkok]

It is just plain nonsense to believe the army will not obey orders and move to disperse protesters. The police may be another story but I have my doubts they would not do their job to the best of their ability when called upon. Both of these groups are trained to operate as a unit in actions like this. They will never be asked to kill or hurt other Thais but only will be told they have the right to defend themselves. People are not thinking correctly if they believe the military will not move to remove the crowd if ordered and react harshly to anyone who attacks and hurts their fellow comrades if the reds respond violently.

Again, people are just not thinking clearly if they believe an army, regardless of where, thinks as individuals and not as a group. Trust me, soldiers are not thinking about anything but their objective and protecting their own lives and that of their comrades during a battle or fight.

The PM is doing everything possible to limit blood shed of both those empowered to enforce the law as well as what he believes are innocent, misinformed or ignorant folks still within the red mob. The more people he has to enforce the law at the site will result in less casualties if and when the time comes to move the red mob out. Also bringing in special force folks will allow the bulk of the military to concentrate on crowd control and dispersal using their sheer numbers while the specialists deal with the more experienced and heavily armed insurgents and terrorists within the mob.

The military to date has done nothing but obey orders. It is actually kind of bizarre that the red supporters on one hand say the PM is military backed (though he has been incredibly timid in using them) while in the same breath say the military is mainly made up of red sympathizers - or - that the current gov't and pm are military backed but that the military may overthrow them.

Edited April 26, 2010 by jcbangkok

[hammered]

CSM quote western security consultant as saying there is no breakdown in army command and control, but they have problems keeping a secret. Stuff like moving troops and alerting hospitals before hand must be big giveaways to be honest

Today border police, army and police in Pathum Thani all seemed to do what they were asked to do

[JohnLeech]

It's clear and obvious Thais can't do it on their own, they've demonstrated and proved time and again they're incapable - there just isn't any Aung San Suu Ky in Thailand nor is it possible. …. Abhisit's strength is his Brit experience and the fact he's Thai........so it's clear that the kind of foreign UK/USA experience each had the benefit of in their youth is a prerequisite to creating a Thai who is necessary different than the inevitable and eternal incestuously produced crowd of tribal politicians corporate leaders and leaders of other Thai tribal traditional institutions and society. …..

From what I can understand, you are saying that no born and bred Thai is capable of running their own country, "nor is it possible". Bizarre.

As for Churchill and Abhisit - yes, Churchill and Abhisit - when Chamberlain quit the king called on Churchill to form a wartime coalition government.....no snap election was called to get a mandate for a new government in the eventful face of a new and yet another European war (a retread of the war of a generation earlier). Abhisit was chosen by the parliament and accepted by higher authority in much the same manner, but in Abhisit's instance at the early stages of the clear suggestions of a looming incipient civil war, which brings us to where we are in the present…..

Another case of your conclusion being totally unsupported by any genuine facts, except your own, and being the reverse of reality. There was no similarity in the way Churchill and Abhisit became Prime Ministers whatsoever. Churchill was chosen by his predecessor (Chamberlain), and nominated to the King jointly by Chamberlain, Lord Halifax (his only real rival for the post) and David Margesson, the Government Chief Whip, and he had the full and declared support of all the major political parties. Abhisit was certainly not chosen by his predecessor, nor did he (or does he) have the support of all the major parties in government. There is simply no connection between the two.

It would seem to anyone who is in fact impartial is that this government,far from denying the rights of the poor is implementing transparency laws and far more defining long term benefits that any appointed Thaksin government or clone would ever implement.

Those same people that are now behind the red shirts financially ,are aware that as transparency laws are being implemented by this government,their ability to rob the people they are supposedly representing will be diminished.

Your impartiality, or possibly your knowledge, does not appear to include the various proven cases of corruption that have already taken place under Abhisit's government (school milk, rotten fish, non-existent fertiliser, bribes for ambulances, etc, etc) which show his government to be little better than most and considerably worse than others in this regard.

Glad Pub inspired you. I know him personally, and he is that kind of guy in real life.

That explains a great deal.

Edited April 26, 2010 by JohnLeech

[JohnLeech]

Trust me, soldiers are not thinking about anything but their objective and protecting their own lives and that of their comrades during a battle or fight.

While I have little disagreement with most of what you say, "trust me", although during the few seconds or even minutes when things are hottest "soldiers are not thinking about anything but their objective and protecting their own lives and that of their comrades", for most of the time "during a (prolonged) battle or a fight" most soldiers, except the commanders, are thinking of a lot of other things, most centred around "what the <deleted> am I doing here"!

[ding]

Abhisit's coalition a year from now can emerge ahead in a GE for any number of reasons but longevity would be at the forefront of any analysis. A snap election would open the electoral processes and democracy itself to the win by hook or by crook terrorism of the Redshirts seizing masses of votes by intimidation, cash, threats, the guarantee of violence and, I'm certain, numerous deaths. The outcome of such a snap election would not be acceptable either, whether domesticly or abroad.

Agreed, wait for the scheduled General Election.

And the Thai military MUST be 100% under elected civilian control to avoid peerage, patronage, and US styled corporatist influences in Thai democracy.

Edited April 26, 2010 by ding

[ding]

The last 4 PMs (incl. Abhisit) have all had problems controlling a divided country.

It helps me to remember that Thailand has only had a democracy since 1992. And democracy is messy. If they can keep the military and big money out, they have a good shot at success.

[jcbangkok]

Trust me, soldiers are not thinking about anything but their objective and protecting their own lives and that of their comrades during a battle or fight.

While I have little disagreement with most of what you say, "trust me", although during the few seconds or even minutes when things are hottest "soldiers are not thinking about anything but their objective and protecting their own lives and that of their comrades", for most of the time "during a (prolonged) battle or a fight" most soldiers, except the commanders, are thinking of a lot of other things, most centred around "what the <deleted> am I doing here"!

I haven't been down there since the day before the grenade attack but what has me wondering is these soldiers sitting around all day long in this heat in full uniform and boots bored off their a@@. The you have the reds on the other side who seem to work themselves up to a frenzy of believing an attack is imminent each time the wind blows. If push does come to shove it will be interesting but the numbers, training and fire power would make the reds quickly be knocked back to reality of the insanity of going up against the military regardless. Bottom line, very sad situation all over a few peoples desires who will likely escape any real consequences.

[LevelHead]

Do you get the feeling that since the pro-Yellow leaders of the army who attacked on April 10th got targeted and shot, that in fact now the pro-Yellow side of the Army cannot muster much support and is very weak ?

I mean, according to the headline they were getting the crack forces ready, what happened ? Did it come to total perhaps 1000 who were Yellow enough to do the work of the puppet masters ?

When the Yellow's protested the police were used against them and the Yellow army sides helped the PAD and gave them training.

Its no surprise now that everyone else ignores the Reds, and the Yellow army side, which appears to be very small now, is unable to do anything.

Most strange how weak Team Yellow is appearing now.

Perhaps all they have is money now, their influence has been severely weakened due to their rampant corruption and favoritism since 2006 ?

[jdinasia]

Do you get the feeling that since the pro-Yellow leaders of the army who attacked on April 10th got targeted and shot, that in fact now the pro-Yellow side of the Army cannot muster much support and is very weak ?

I mean, according to the headline they were getting the crack forces ready, what happened ? Did it come to total perhaps 1000 who were Yellow enough to do the work of the puppet masters ?

When the Yellow's protested the police were used against them and the Yellow army sides helped the PAD and gave them training.

Its no surprise now that everyone else ignores the Reds, and the Yellow army side, which appears to be very small now, is unable to do anything.

Most strange how weak Team Yellow is appearing now.

Perhaps all they have is money now, their influence has been severely weakened due to their rampant corruption and favoritism since 2006 ?

No --- I don't get that idea at all. In fact, there is no indication that the troops that were used to deal with the people that attacked Thaicom and 1st Regiment were pro-anything. There is an indication that they were doing their jobs dispersing a violent mob when they were attacked by Sae Daeng's "ronin".

Not an honest argument in any of your posts that I have seen.

[LevelHead]

You appear to be so Yellow you would put a banana to shame, however, that is your choice to ignore the worlds media reports and simply go with the official Thai propaganda from the yellow media, in full knowledge at the present level of censorship of the media which is far worse than anything in recent Thai history, worse even than the allegations thrown at Thaksin.

The censorship now is disgusting. The propaganda is disgusting.

[rabo]

Do you get the feeling that since the pro-Yellow leaders of the army who attacked on April 10th got targeted and shot, that in fact now the pro-Yellow side of the Army cannot muster much support and is very weak ?

I mean, according to the headline they were getting the crack forces ready, what happened ? Did it come to total perhaps 1000 who were Yellow enough to do the work of the puppet masters ?

When the Yellow's protested the police were used against them and the Yellow army sides helped the PAD and gave them training.

Its no surprise now that everyone else ignores the Reds, and the Yellow army side, which appears to be very small now, is unable to do anything.

Most strange how weak Team Yellow is appearing now.

Perhaps all they have is money now, their influence has been severely weakened due to their rampant corruption and favoritism since 2006 ?

Perhaps even more strange, is they are winning. Abhisit's popularity is skyrocketing even among the silent red majority, and the entire red leadership is in total disarray. Just now posted: Seh Daeng is arguing with other leaders about moving barricades.

Abhisit will go down in Thai history as the first great Thai PM, his peaceful ways will make him world famous. He already has most of the Thai female vote becasue he is so cute.

[ChiangMaiFun]

...Abhisit's coalition a year from now can emerge ahead in a GE for any number of reasons but longevity would be at the forefront of any analysis. A snap election would open the electoral processes and democracy itself to the win by hook or by crook terrorism of the Redshirts seizing masses of votes by intimidation, cash, threats, the guarantee of violence and, I'm certain, numerous deaths. The outcome of such a snap election would not be acceptable either, whether domesticly or abroad.

As for Churchill and Abhisit - yes, Churchill and Abhisit -

when Chamberlain quit the king called on Churchill to form a wartime coalition government.....

no snap election was called to get a mandate for a new government in the eventful face of a new and yet another European war

(a retread of the war of a generation earlier).

Abhisit was chosen by the parliament and accepted by higher authority in much the same manner,

but in Abhisit's instance at the early stages of the clear suggestions of a looming incipient civil war,

which brings us to where we are in the present.

None the less, I maintain that the present question of how to deal effectively with the Redshirts

continues to remain unresolved because while on television we saw the pair of Anupong and Abhisit,

they between them don't have a pair to deal with Thaksin and his Redshirt captains.

Always a pleasure to quote you my friend. Spot on.

Absolute rubbish - Churchill and Chamberlain were both from the SAME party - the King (or Queen) always 'invites' the leader of the main party to form a government - it is a symbolic role - no more - there are NO correllations to Abhisit - none at all.