Bangkok: Assailants Fired M-79 Grenades At Sala Daeng Skytrain Station

[longway]

There were reporters and non-protesters on the Silom side of Rama IV that would have seen anyone on that side setting off these grenades.

The Saladaeng BTS station is a direct line down Silom Rd from the entrance to Lumpini Park where the reds are stationed.

There are plenty of eyewitness accounts of "firecrackers" coming from the red side. It would be easy to mistake the launch of grenades as firecrackers if you had never seen a grenade launched.

It is clear that these grenades came from the red side.

One thing I should know by now, is that nothing is clear.

Until I see it on video exactly how this happened, I do not believe the reds or the government about who may have perpetrated this act. Motives lie with so many people and groups, I prefer to be pleasantly surprised than awfully disappointed when the truth comes out.

What has happened last night is as clear as it gets. I am not knocking the motivations of the grass roots of the red movement, btw but they are being used in the same way the grass roots of the yellow shirts were used.

[Meridian007]

Agreed.

Our groundwater well went dry this April, just like many others in Isaan. Fortunately Mr. Thaksin installed a water tower in our village before he was ousted 4 years ago so we don't have to drink muddy buffalo piss water or wait for the government trucks to fill up the local tanks. The next village over was not so lucky and getting water has been a big problem. Thaksin had plans to give them the water tower they needed but the Thai Army had other ideas back in 2006. It's the people that got water towers, or tractor loans, or houses subsidized by Thaksin, or got a local village economy created who were among the majority that voted for Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai party. Real life farmers concerned with surviving in dignity. No politician is without corruption, but give me one who improves my lifestyle, for example by making running water available in my home all year round and I'll vote for him every time. Abhisit has done nothing for my village.

Life in the countryside is about what the average farmer needs to survive one day at a time. That's why millions haven't marched on Bangkok. They're too busy fishing, catching crickets, carrying water from the local tanks or rivers, and getting ready for the rice planting season so they can feed their families. Many of them are in Bangkok already, but again, working. They cannot afford to take time off because they have to send money home to Isaan to feed wives, children and parents. It's day to day income, living paycheck to paycheck, cricket to cricket, bottle of water to bottle of water, which most people with a sizable savings account wouldn't understand. Thaksin, as corrupt as he may have been, was one of few, like the beloved King, who seemed to acknowledge the real needs of the average Thai farmer. The average farmer's mind is not concerned with Bangkok. It's in the fields.

That is why it is so sad that the red leaders from these areas in Issan won't allow any government help in these regions. There have been attempts by the Abhisit government to make things better in Issan, (even using populist practices like Thaksin), but they are stonewalled by the leaders of these communities who can't allow the people to change their "religion" away from "Thaksin is our saviour, and the only one who cares about us". If they realized that others are willing to assist, it would destabilize the power grip these red Pu Yais have on their communities.

I wish it wasn't this way, and Thaksin's "democracy you can eat" quote is one of the few things that I agree with him on. The people do need help, but this protest isn't about helping them, it's about helping the man who threw them some of their own bones after he had stripped the meat off them to keep for himself.

[draftvader]

I find it strangely coincidental that at the main stage and rally site Rajaprasong last time; (former pop singer, and recently turned rappelling aficionado ) Arisman told the protestors NOT to abandon their 'kids fort' by the Rama 4 statue near Lumpini. He said, in nearly the same breath said black shirted 'helpers' would come to their aid to hold' the position.

Shortly after that the M79 grenade attacks began. Now either it is one hellova whacky coincidence OR it is what it appears to be; The mysterious '3rd-hand', 'ronin warriors', 'men-in-black' or (insert your catchy name here ) showed up, and decided to take the action to a higher level.

FWIW, (although I'm sure the well read, well researched, semi-illustrious posters of T/V know this info already);

The M79 is a short (73cm long) easily concealable weapon, (made even more concealable if the rear stock is cut off some). While the shells are 40X46mm, they are quite low in velocity. If it's used like a mini-mortar to 'lob' shots in, it can have an effective range of over 350 meters. Of the available rounds for this, only the smoke cartridge gives away the location of the shooter via trajectory trace-back, as the fusing device for the smoke charge is burning. If you’ve ever heard one fired, you immediately understand why it is called “Thumper”, as the report is one of the most characteristically individual sounds and you NEVER EVER forget it.

1. How does the media know for certain that the explosions were caused by M-79 grenades? After all, they exploded and no trace remains except perhaps for fragments. <SNIP>

2. If they were M-79’s, <SNIP> I would be surprised if they were easy to obtain.

<SNIP>

I offer condolences to the family of the person that was killed in the incident. I fear that this is just the beginning.

I strongly disagree with the above much abbreviated quoted post. The M79 is BY FAR AND AWAY one of the easiest weapons to get in S/E asia (next to hand grenades). It is way easier to find than say an AK-47. It’s are both inexpensive and plentiful in any of the bordering countries. Almost anyone could given proper motivation acquire one quite easily. (Christ I could probably get one if I put my mind to it.)

In perusing the pics of the impact sites on the internet, it looks like standard fragmentation rounds were used. (Thank the goddess, that who ever fired the rounds didn't have flechette rounds as they chew people up BAD.) If anything good can be said from this tragedy, when the M79 uses standard fragmentation rounds; examining the impacts (especially shots made from long range) are fairly easy (sadly, after the fact) to glean (thru post blast patterning) a close estimate of both a rounds flight trajectory and possible position of the shooter when the round was fired.

Another thing, it is disheartening is that some posters refer to the 'multi-color' people as 'yellow shirts', although the PAD makes NO claims to them being in their cadre of supporters. For all we know they could be disenchanted or disenfranchised redz, yellowz, or they could really just be normal bangkokians who are tired of this affecting their livelihood. With the plethora of 'fake colors' out there, it is difficult to really know who is who anymore.

(I just hope no faction of the thai population decides to wear black KISS tour t-shirts or I'm out of an entire wardrobe )

About the only thing I wholeheartedly concur with in the quoted post is; I too offer condolences to the family of the persons who were killed and injured.

Informative addition to news wire reporting.

Thank you tod-daniels.

[kissdani]

Sadly the TV forum is filled with too many people who have no idea about things "Thai" and who sit in Ivory Towers dictating they know everything and the Army will do this and the police that.

If you watch the link below you can see :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd1loe_us...top-201004_news

Multicolor shirts have come looking for a fight, they are throwing bottles and objects at Reds.

Police move in to move them back.

Mutlicolors attack police.

Police push them back while under attack from them.

Then you see the Mullticolors are in front of "Army" lines.

The multicolors retreat and finally run behind the army lines while chased by the police.

Army did nothing to stop them or apprehend them.

With regards to the attacks by grenades, all violence is wrong. People getting killed is sad and not right. However, if the leaders of the PAD/Yellow had not invoked the "Multicolor" protests again these deaths would have been avoided. That does not take anything away from whoever fired the grenades (very likely a third hand), but as ever, it takes two to tango.

Thanks. This clip will be BANNED from public TV especially NBT. I can bet on it.

At least they show civilian victims this time on TV.

Those who attacked the red shirt barricade i think The Nation called them 'The Residents'. Let us stick to that name. Actually they are just some hooligans who enjoy the adrenaline kick in street battles and some donations. Former PAD guard are probably amongst them.

Don't mistake them for the multi color shirts or this facebook movement. These pro government protesters are genuine citizen using their right to rally to express their opinion. Don't forget there are also some people out there who voted for the Democrats. They will also have their fair share of yellow shirts. Not everybody is equally interest in politics or willing to attend a rally and begon an activist. So mostly the very motivated govt supporter will show up, that are also yellows. Same as in the reds there are many moderate people who want exercise democracy. They are not interested in riots and street battles.

And there are also the chess player in the background who do some additional moves, on both sides. Add the third power, the invisible hand, the maneuverer, the The M-79s(I), the The M-79s(II), the The M-79s(III), the shadow ultras, the men in black, Count von Count and whoever.

'The Residents' are clearly someones pawn to heat and speed up to come to a solution, a nasty one potentially. That also leads to an armament of the reds, make them look more ugly in the public eye.

'The Residents' don't have much in common with the average multi color shirt. And 'The Residents' have certainly nothing to do with the The M-79s(I),(II) or (III). They may actually attract some real Residents.

[pimay11]

MCOT: DIS: Detained Red Shirt ally Mathee confesses protesters seized army weapons during April 10 clashes, distributed them to use against troops

I'm sure he will be declared a fake red!

[Meridian007]

Well, there are apparently dozens and dozens of reporters down there. Presumably with dozens of cameras both still and video pointing in all sorts of directions.

Someone will have a video of something that will shed a lot of light on where and how a grenade came to land on the BTS. Presumably the BTS has cameras so where is the footage?

I am still unsure how anyone could fire from road level onto the platform accurately. They could fire onto the walkways of course. The story is that the grenades came from Lumpini and one came down through the "roof" of the BTS? Another newspaper is still claiming "unknown" areas for the launch and has a differing number for the numbers of casualties. Some say 5 grenades, some 3, some landing on the platforms, some on walkways. One says one grenade landed at the Dusit Thani, the other not. The newspapers don't even have a conclusive story, and I tell you I won't believe a word that comes out of Suthep's or the red's mouth about this type of thing.

The story is so confused, and apparently despite there being so many cameras around, as yet, very little CONCRETE evidence.

For some video after the fact, that shows the holes on the roof, look at Olivier Rottrou's video on this page, (it's the first one): http://thailand.media140.org/bangkok/?p=1218

You won't get video of them launching for two reasons. One, the red side was kept dark, the only well lit area was the silom side of the barricades, which is why the pictures and videos you see are from there.

Second, if it was M79, you aren't going to see a definable trail when it is launched.

Therefore, you can't get video, and must look for other sources for verification of what happened.

As to the distances, the M79 has an effective distance of 350m and a less accurate distance of 400m. With these distances it is possible to hit the roof of the BTS, and then explode. Different trajectories, and the possibility of a bounce before explosion would cause the differnce in distances along the BTS station. Go to google maps and map it out if you don't believe me, It is possible to hit the BTS from Lumpini.

[anotherpeter]

Well, there are apparently dozens and dozens of reporters down there. Presumably with dozens of cameras both still and video pointing in all sorts of directions.

Someone will have a video of something that will shed a lot of light on where and how a grenade came to land on the BTS. Presumably the BTS has cameras so where is the footage?

I am still unsure how anyone could fire from road level onto the platform accurately. They could fire onto the walkways of course. The story is that the grenades came from Lumpini and one came down through the "roof" of the BTS? Another newspaper is still claiming "unknown" areas for the launch and has a differing number for the numbers of casualties. Some say 5 grenades, some 3, some landing on the platforms, some on walkways. One says one grenade landed at the Dusit Thani, the other not. The newspapers don't even have a conclusive story, and I tell you I won't believe a word that comes out of Suthep's or the red's mouth about this type of thing.

The story is so confused, and apparently despite there being so many cameras around, as yet, very little CONCRETE evidence.

"I am still unsure how anyone could fire from road level onto the platform accurately."

Was that what was being aimed at? The anti-red protestors. And they missed and got the BTS instead.

There is plenty of eyewitness accounts of "firecrackers" coming from the red side. Maybe they were actually grenades in there that many thought were "firecrackers".

Given the number of people (reporters, non-protestors) on the Silom side with no reports of grenade launches (or firecrackers) from that side, the evidence available certainly does point to it coming from the red side.

[FarAwayBen]

Agreed.

Our groundwater well went dry this April, just like many others in Isaan. Fortunately Mr. Thaksin installed a water tower in our village before he was ousted 4 years ago so we don't have to drink muddy buffalo piss water or wait for the government trucks to fill up the local tanks. The next village over was not so lucky and getting water has been a big problem. Thaksin had plans to give them the water tower they needed but the Thai Army had other ideas back in 2006. It's the people that got water towers, or tractor loans, or houses subsidized by Thaksin, or got a local village economy created who were among the majority that voted for Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai party. Real life farmers concerned with surviving in dignity. No politician is without corruption, but give me one who improves my lifestyle, for example by making running water available in my home all year round and I'll vote for him every time. Abhisit has done nothing for my village.

Life in the countryside is about what the average farmer needs to survive one day at a time. That's why millions haven't marched on Bangkok. They're too busy fishing, catching crickets, carrying water from the local tanks or rivers, and getting ready for the rice planting season so they can feed their families. Many of them are in Bangkok already, but again, working. They cannot afford to take time off because they have to send money home to Isaan to feed wives, children and parents. It's day to day income, living paycheck to paycheck, cricket to cricket, bottle of water to bottle of water, which most people with a sizable savings account wouldn't understand. Thaksin, as corrupt as he may have been, was one of few, like the beloved King, who seemed to acknowledge the real needs of the average Thai farmer. The average farmer's mind is not concerned with Bangkok. It's in the fields.

That is why it is so sad that the red leaders from these areas in Issan won't allow any government help in these regions. There have been attempts by the Abhisit government to make things better in Issan, (even using populist practices like Thaksin), but they are stonewalled by the leaders of these communities who can't allow the people to change their "religion" away from "Thaksin is our saviour, and the only one who cares about us". If they realized that others are willing to assist, it would destabilize the power grip these red Pu Yais have on their communities.

I wish it wasn't this way, and Thaksin's "democracy you can eat" quote is one of the few things that I agree with him on. The people do need help, but this protest isn't about helping them, it's about helping the man who threw them some of their own bones after he had stripped the meat off them to keep for himself.

The bottom line is that Thaksin got results, despite local corruption. That's all that really matters in the end. He was effective. If he had a higher agenda, which he apparently did, it's unimportant to the average farmer because he improved the quality of living out here. All the poor care about are the tangible manifestations of his policies to help the poor. But you are correct. Local elected officials make it very difficult to effect change in the provinces. A good example are all the half completed roads which remain that way for years because the government funding "ran out" while the local Phuu Yai Baan's mia noi gets a nice new home or a pickup. Somehow, Thaksin found a way around this. I don't pretend to know his methods, I just know that they worked and suspect that lifestyle improvement is at the core of his popularity. Not the 500 baht people might have received to vote for one guy instead of someone else, though that goes a long way too because people out here are generally quite uninformed.

Whatever the Reds are up to in Bangkok, I don't know. I just know that the government that won the majority of the vote was ousted out of power and replaced by what we have today. It seems like the people with the most sway in Thailand aren't really interested in democracy. If they were, they'd work harder to find ways to win elections rather than staging a coup every time a government is popularly elected. Figuring out how to effectively help the poor would accomplish that. I don't care what color shirt they wear, just get results. Thaksin figured out how to do that and thus proved it was possible, why can't anyone else?

[Loz]

good article here..........Japanese Times

Excellent article.

Written by a former Oxford Fellow, I suspect this one is not a Geordie.

[barky]

Two of the four were foreigners while the rest were Thais.

Just a question, what are foreigners doing there if they know it's dangerous???

Song nam naa!!!!

What do you mean som nam na you dingbat?

They, like I, may work in the area. Who knows? Whatever their reason their plight deserves some sympathy.

They, like all the other non-protagonists (innocent bystanders or passers-by) have the right to go about their life and not expect to get hit by a bomb on a railway station.

[anotherpeter]

The bottom line is that Thaksin got results, despite local corruption. That's all that really matters in the end. He was effective. If he had a higher agenda, which he apparently did, it's unimportant to the average farmer because he improved the quality of living out here. All the poor care about are the tangible manifestations of his policies to help the poor. But you are correct. Local elected officials make it very difficult to effect change in the provinces. A good example are all the half completed roads which remain that way for years because the government funding "ran out" while the local Phuu Yai Baan's mia noi gets a nice new home or a pickup. Somehow, Thaksin found a way around this. I don't pretend to know his methods, I just know that they worked and suspect that lifestyle improvement is at the core of his popularity. Not the 500 baht people might have received to vote for one guy instead of someone else, though that goes a long way too because people out here are generally quite uninformed.

Whatever the Reds are up to in Bangkok, I don't know. I just know that the government that won the majority of the vote was ousted out of power and replaced by what we have today. It seems like the people with the most sway in Thailand aren't really interested in democracy. If they were, they'd work harder to find ways to win elections rather than staging a coup every time a government is popularly elected. Figuring out how to effectively help the poor would accomplish that. I don't care what color shirt they wear, just get results. Thaksin figured out how to do that and thus proved it was possible, why can't anyone else?

Thaksin got results because he aided the local corruption.

The PPP did NOT win the majority of votes. They formed government with a coalition of smaller parties.

Even after the PPP was disbanded, the PTP (ex-PPP MPs) could have continued in government, but they lost the support the BJT-Newin MPs.

The Democrats were able to form a coalition government with the of the BJT and other smaller parties (ie a majority of MPs).

The reds are protesting because they are no longer in government. But that's the way democracy works. The majority rules.

[FarAwayBen]

The bottom line is that Thaksin got results, despite local corruption. That's all that really matters in the end. He was effective. If he had a higher agenda, which he apparently did, it's unimportant to the average farmer because he improved the quality of living out here. All the poor care about are the tangible manifestations of his policies to help the poor. But you are correct. Local elected officials make it very difficult to effect change in the provinces. A good example are all the half completed roads which remain that way for years because the government funding "ran out" while the local Phuu Yai Baan's mia noi gets a nice new home or a pickup. Somehow, Thaksin found a way around this. I don't pretend to know his methods, I just know that they worked and suspect that lifestyle improvement is at the core of his popularity. Not the 500 baht people might have received to vote for one guy instead of someone else, though that goes a long way too because people out here are generally quite uninformed.

Whatever the Reds are up to in Bangkok, I don't know. I just know that the government that won the majority of the vote was ousted out of power and replaced by what we have today. It seems like the people with the most sway in Thailand aren't really interested in democracy. If they were, they'd work harder to find ways to win elections rather than staging a coup every time a government is popularly elected. Figuring out how to effectively help the poor would accomplish that. I don't care what color shirt they wear, just get results. Thaksin figured out how to do that and thus proved it was possible, why can't anyone else?

Thaksin got results because he aided the local corruption.

The PPP did NOT win the majority of votes. They formed government with a coalition of smaller parties.

Even after the PPP was disbanded, the PTP (ex-PPP MPs) could have continued in government, but they lost the support the BJT-Newin MPs.

The Democrats were able to form a coalition government with the of the BJT and other smaller parties (ie a majority of MPs).

The reds are protesting because they are no longer in government. But that's the way democracy works. The majority rules.

Like I said, whatever works. Don't really care, just get it done.

[Crash999]

I was thinking the same thing. I also heard rumour of RPGs being used, and depending on the ammunition, that would also extend their range, but would be more visible, hence the rockets.

If you take a look at the video of the damage it seems that whatever it was that exploded fell down from above.

Not sure what the range of those grenade launchers are but they seem to have been quite accurate considering the distance between the alleged launch site and skytrain station is around 400-500 meters.

[Meridian007]

The bottom line is that Thaksin got results, despite local corruption. That's all that really matters in the end. He was effective. If he had a higher agenda, which he apparently did, it's unimportant to the average farmer because he improved the quality of living out here. All the poor care about are the tangible manifestations of his policies to help the poor. But you are correct. Local elected officials make it very difficult to effect change in the provinces. A good example are all the half completed roads which remain that way for years because the government funding "ran out" while the local Phuu Yai Baan's mia noi gets a nice new home or a pickup. Somehow, Thaksin found a way around this. I don't pretend to know his methods, I just know that they worked and suspect that lifestyle improvement is at the core of his popularity. Not the 500 baht people might have received to vote for one guy instead of someone else, though that goes a long way too because people out here are generally quite uninformed.

Whatever the Reds are up to in Bangkok, I don't know. I just know that the government that won the majority of the vote was ousted out of power and replaced by what we have today. It seems like the people with the most sway in Thailand aren't really interested in democracy. If they were, they'd work harder to find ways to win elections rather than staging a coup every time a government is popularly elected. Figuring out how to effectively help the poor would accomplish that. I don't care what color shirt they wear, just get results. Thaksin figured out how to do that and thus proved it was possible, why can't anyone else?

Thaksin was merely the first. He paved the way for reforms, but he got carried away with his new-found power, and was proven to have his sights on a higher position than PM. That was why he had to go, and can't be allowed in again. If so, you'll see a corporate dictatorship in action, and he won't hide behind a "war on drugs" campaign to kill his opposition this time.

He was very clever in his manipulation of the desperation of the poor, but I believe that all other leaders now are forced to include the issue of poverty reduction in Issan as part of their policies. Abhisit was making his way towards it, (while trying to get the country back on its feet), which is one of the reasons that this conflict had to be created. Thaksin can't afford to have Abhisit, (or anyone else for that matter), be seen to help the poor, or his image crumbles. If the people saw that someone will help them with concrete assistance, but won't become an authoritarian overlord, they would choose that person over Thaksin. He can't come back.

Another sad thing is that neither side would win if elections are called now. There is too much division and blood on both sides, so Thailand will continue to have weak, secondary governments. If Abhisit had been given his whole term in peace, he would have changed Thailand for the better. Thaksin couldn't allow this, sadly.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Meridian007

[retdson]

good article here..........Japanese Times

Excellent article.

Written by a former Oxford Fellow, I suspect this one is not a Geordie.

Agree - Thailand's problem succinctly and clearly explained

[Meridian007]

I was thinking the same thing. I also heard rumour of RPGs being used, and depending on the ammunition, that would also extend their range, but would be more visible, hence the rockets.

If you take a look at the video of the damage it seems that whatever it was that exploded fell down from above.

Not sure what the range of those grenade launchers are but they seem to have been quite accurate considering the distance between the alleged launch site and skytrain station is around 400-500 meters.

Yup, that hits it. However, I disagree with Suthep that it was fired from behind the statue, the barricades are well into the road, so I think it would have been fired from much closer to there. The sound of the M79 being fired was covered up with the firecracker rockets, and to increase confusion.

[Phuket Stan]

"A good example are all the half completed roads which remain that way for years because the government funding "ran out" while the local Phuu Yai Baan's mia noi gets a nice new home or a pickup"

And therein lies a lot of the problems in the North and Isaan.....if you think Bkk people are corrupt they are rank amatuers compared to the Isaan Phuu Yai Baan's.....what about the Phuu Yai Baam who needed some roads built on ONE of his huge landholdings.....he hijacked the the funds from a 2 kilometre village road about to be built...and it keeps going on adinfinitum....lots of the contibutors on this forum should spend a month in Isaan (not in any bars) and see what it is really like for those poor people....they are being used in this protest by the aforesaid PYBs....and it all comes back to one thing...lack of education

I dont live in Isaan ....as my name suggest I live in Phuket but travel to Isaan to see some really good Thai friends who live there....and they are dirt poor but would give you the last food they had in the house and smile while you eat it

[OzMick]

It is true that we don't know who shot those grenades yet... and we may never know for sure. However, the only ones who will benefit from escalating violence are the Reds themselves. Furthermore, the grenade attacks that started during the Yellow protests and have continued to the present have always targeted people or institutions that are seen as being hostile to the Reds. While a 'false flag operation' is always possible, this would be an unusually prolonged one!

I do hope that the army does not respond rashly to this provocation. A harsh response is exactly what the more extreme Reds want. Also, it would be a huge PR boost for the Reds if the Red Guards arrested the extremists who did this and turned them over to the police.

1. How does the media know for certain that the explosions were caused by M-79 grenades? After all, they exploded and no trace remains except perhaps for fragments. The M-79 fires different types of ordinance including explosive, anti-personnel, smoke, buckshot, and illumination rounds (Source: Wikipedia). Which type was shot?

2. If they were M-79's, then as weapons of war (fired from a launcher) they would be almost exclusively used by the military and therefore must have originated from that source. As far as I know, M-79 grenades are not available for sale in Central Department stores nor can they be imported legally by the general public. Of course, those high up in the Reds could probably obtain these weapons of the "back of a truck" but I would be surprised if they were easy to obtain.

3. Therefore, if they were M-79 grenades then the likelihood is that they were fired by military units who were in the area.

4. Given that the Reds were facing armed military and police, it is unlikely (and stupid) that they would provoke an attack. I have heard reports that some Reds had guns but I know that ALL Police had guns and probably the Military were armed accordingly with high powered assault rifles.

I hope we do not have any more incidents tonight and I offer condolences to the family of the person that was killed in the incident. I fear that this is just the beginning.

Nice train of logic, but it gets derailed pretty early, at point 2/. When the yanks pulled out of 'Nam they left behind thousands of them. Just recently a factory (in BKK?) was raided making components for launchers. Therefore, point 3/ becomes invalid.

When you take into account that the commander of the dispersal op was killed by one, and that as a lobbing weapon it could be fired over a barrier (i.e. from a concealed position), the firer would not be facing-down police or army. Also, the fact that the reds were igniting fireworks which could drown out the very distinctive sound of the launcher, makes it much more likely that it was there work. I do agree it was stupid, but that's red shirts for you.

By the way, the explosive rounds are by far the most common. I had never heard of buckshot rounds, and I assume crowd dispersal, but why bother when an auto shotgun would deliver the intensity and accuracy of fire much better.

[animatic]

MCOT: DIS: Detained Red Shirt ally Mathee confesses protesters seized army weapons during April 10 clashes, distributed them to use against troops

I'm sure he will be declared a fake red!

I am sure he just became a target too.

The sordid story just continues.

[FarAwayBen]

The bottom line is that Thaksin got results, despite local corruption. That's all that really matters in the end. He was effective. If he had a higher agenda, which he apparently did, it's unimportant to the average farmer because he improved the quality of living out here. All the poor care about are the tangible manifestations of his policies to help the poor. But you are correct. Local elected officials make it very difficult to effect change in the provinces. A good example are all the half completed roads which remain that way for years because the government funding "ran out" while the local Phuu Yai Baan's mia noi gets a nice new home or a pickup. Somehow, Thaksin found a way around this. I don't pretend to know his methods, I just know that they worked and suspect that lifestyle improvement is at the core of his popularity. Not the 500 baht people might have received to vote for one guy instead of someone else, though that goes a long way too because people out here are generally quite uninformed.

Whatever the Reds are up to in Bangkok, I don't know. I just know that the government that won the majority of the vote was ousted out of power and replaced by what we have today. It seems like the people with the most sway in Thailand aren't really interested in democracy. If they were, they'd work harder to find ways to win elections rather than staging a coup every time a government is popularly elected. Figuring out how to effectively help the poor would accomplish that. I don't care what color shirt they wear, just get results. Thaksin figured out how to do that and thus proved it was possible, why can't anyone else?

Thaksin was merely the first. He paved the way for reforms, but he got carried away with his new-found power, and was proven to have his sights on a higher position than PM. That was why he had to go, and can't be allowed in again. If so, you'll see a corporate dictatorship in action, and he won't hide behind a "war on drugs" campaign to kill his opposition this time.

He was very clever in his manipulation of the desperation of the poor, but I believe that all other leaders now are forced to include the issue of poverty reduction in Issan as part of their policies. Abhisit was making his way towards it, (while trying to get the country back on its feet), which is one of the reasons that this conflict had to be created. Thaksin can't afford to have Abhisit, (or anyone else for that matter), be seen to help the poor, or his image crumbles. If the people saw that someone will help them with concrete assistance, but won't become an authoritarian overlord, they would choose that person over Thaksin. He can't come back.

Another sad thing is that neither side would win if elections are called now. There is too much division and blood on both sides, so Thailand will continue to have weak, secondary governments. If Abhisit had been given his whole term in peace, he would have changed Thailand for the better. Thaksin couldn't allow this, sadly.

I agree. The proper way to go is to wait for the next elections, not force a new government, like as you said, that would be weak in ineffective. If Abhisit is as good as you say, it's too bad he wasn't elected. The opinions I've heard among the poor seem to be that he is ineffective and decidedly "un-Thai". But if he could have gotten things done sooner, I would have supported him all the way. I am opposed to any attempts to force a government out of power as long as scheduled elections can guarantee that the people will have a chance to choose for themselves. So unfortunately for Abhisit, he did not come to power with the consent of the population. This is unfortunate for Thailand is well if Abhisit really had the interests of the majority poor in mind. The way the governments have been toppling in Thailand since 2006, however, leaves little confidence that an election will guarantee much of anything.

[mdechgan]

Thaksin got results because he aided the local corruption.

The PPP did NOT win the majority of votes. They formed government with a coalition of smaller parties.

Even after the PPP was disbanded, the PTP (ex-PPP MPs) could have continued in government, but they lost the support the BJT-Newin MPs.

The Democrats were able to form a coalition government with the of the BJT and other smaller parties (ie a majority of MPs).

The reds are protesting because they are no longer in government. But that's the way democracy works. The majority rules.

This is exactly what the reds don't understand. This government is the exact same government that was elected in 2007!

If this government was illegitimate so was Somchai and Samak before. That is why the calling for elections doesn;'t make sense.

The only reason the PPP is not in power was because it was disbanded by court. Also Samak lost his support so did Somchai. Bhum Jai Thai got fed up and sided with the democrats that is how the current government is in power.

Thailand is not a directly elected government. Most countries are not. Even the U.S., UK and other democratic powers do not directly elect their government. The people elect through representatives which in turn elect the prime minister with the exception of the U.S. but even the U.S. the people elect the electoral voters so the majority vote does not exactly become president e.g. George W. Bush in 2000.

The protests do not make sense at all and their is no reason or logic behind the protests. Does anyone protesting know how democracy works?

[barky]

So who thinks it would be a good idea to change your baht savings into your home currency at this point?

You are panicking about nothing - buy Baht now, convert everything you have into Baht and spend spend spend, everything will be fine

Yesterday, I bought 20,000baht worth of shares and today (Friday), I ordered and paid a deposit for a new Honda Civic 2.0 litre.

Ok, so you are fairly confident that the current turmoil will represent a minor economic hiccup in the grand scheme of things? Sorry to reduce this all to money btw. It's just that i have a young family to worry about.

No, not at all. I have stated earlier that this continued event WILL hurt Thailand financially. Correction, IS hurting Thailand and will continue to do so for quite some time.

I and you have little or no ability to change that fact.

But, at the same time, I still go about my life as if nothing is happening. Oh, yeah, my travels through the heart of the city requires detours and some of my shopping/entertainment areas are temporarily close, but there are many alternatives. And, I have left the office a little early each day this week to avoid the problems eg:BTS closures.

So, for me and my missus, it's basically business as usual. Our incomes are not fixed to retail/tourism etc. We have sources of income that may only be slightly disrupted. We have no kids and we can ride it out. And, I like you are "stuck" here to some extent although I reserve the right to get the &lt;deleted&gt; out of Dodge if the going gets extremely dangerous. But, even then I might still not actually leave the country. I might just move up-country and live with the in-laws untill it blows over.

I understand you have kids. That is important to consider. You need a plan a,b,c. and if needed a place to go to.

In the meantime, keep your witts about you. Stay calm. Don't look for trouble. Keep your political opinion to wife, close western friends, TV members only.

But, if you take the long view 3,5,7 years from now, maybe a good time to make some sensible investments.

Edited April 23, 2010 by barky

[truthfulfox]

All we know is that the government has denied independent investigations into the April 10 clashes. And they will probably deny independent investigations into today's attacks as well. So make up your own conclusions, folks.

My conclusion is you are a red true believer and wouldn't care if the reds bombed 50 stations and there was hard core proof it it.

I've been quite neutral on this issue, don't you think? My first post said that we don't know who it was, don't jump to conclusions, yet you've been claiming red shirt terrorism all over the forum. But you have no proof. That's not Democracy. In a Democracy, you need proof before you can blame it on someone.

You have not shown any proof, so stop blaming it on the red shirts.

Stop your false statements.

HE is that kind of people who still thinks saddam houssain had nuk weapons! because tony be lair said it !!!!! :D

[Thai at Heart]

Well, there are apparently dozens and dozens of reporters down there. Presumably with dozens of cameras both still and video pointing in all sorts of directions.

Someone will have a video of something that will shed a lot of light on where and how a grenade came to land on the BTS. Presumably the BTS has cameras so where is the footage?

I am still unsure how anyone could fire from road level onto the platform accurately. They could fire onto the walkways of course. The story is that the grenades came from Lumpini and one came down through the "roof" of the BTS? Another newspaper is still claiming "unknown" areas for the launch and has a differing number for the numbers of casualties. Some say 5 grenades, some 3, some landing on the platforms, some on walkways. One says one grenade landed at the Dusit Thani, the other not. The newspapers don't even have a conclusive story, and I tell you I won't believe a word that comes out of Suthep's or the red's mouth about this type of thing.

The story is so confused, and apparently despite there being so many cameras around, as yet, very little CONCRETE evidence.

For some video after the fact, that shows the holes on the roof, look at Olivier Rottrou's video on this page, (it's the first one): http://thailand.media140.org/bangkok/?p=1218

You won't get video of them launching for two reasons. One, the red side was kept dark, the only well lit area was the silom side of the barricades, which is why the pictures and videos you see are from there.

Second, if it was M79, you aren't going to see a definable trail when it is launched.

Therefore, you can't get video, and must look for other sources for verification of what happened.

As to the distances, the M79 has an effective distance of 350m and a less accurate distance of 400m. With these distances it is possible to hit the roof of the BTS, and then explode. Different trajectories, and the possibility of a bounce before explosion would cause the differnce in distances along the BTS station. Go to google maps and map it out if you don't believe me, It is possible to hit the BTS from Lumpini.

I know exactly where the BTS is in relation to Lumpini.

I am not saying what you said isn't feasible. It is just I would dearly love some independent corroboration. I don't believe a word that comes out of Suthep's mouth anymore. This doesn't mean I am red, it is just I think he is a complete buffoon. Of course by now it is lunchtime the next day, and as yet, not even an eyewitness account in the English language press.

Of course, we have a statement from a TV star about his supposed role as front and centre on the Nation, because that is real news.

[pimay11]

"A good example are all the half completed roads which remain that way for years because the government funding "ran out" while the local Phuu Yai Baan's mia noi gets a nice new home or a pickup"

And therein lies a lot of the problems in the North and Isaan.....if you think Bkk people are corrupt they are rank amatuers compared to the Isaan Phuu Yai Baan's.....what about the Phuu Yai Baam who needed some roads built on ONE of his huge landholdings.....he hijacked the the funds from a 2 kilometre village road about to be built...and it keeps going on adinfinitum....lots of the contibutors on this forum should spend a month in Isaan (not in any bars) and see what it is really like for those poor people....they are being used in this protest by the aforesaid PYBs....and it all comes back to one thing...lack of education

I dont live in Isaan ....as my name suggest I live in Phuket but travel to Isaan to see some really good Thai friends who live there....and they are dirt poor but would give you the last food they had in the house and smile while you eat it

Could not have said it better myself. I have lived in Isaan for over ten years. You are spot on. These people are salt of the earth but just lack education and understanding of how government works. All they know is what they are told by the PYB and they do not question this as per their upbringing. It is sad to see the central government all the way down to the little PYB taking advantage of these people. But as discussed before, this is what the polititions want. Heaven forbid an educated voter.

Give you one example of how corrupt it is. About four years ago I went to the local Tomboon Authority and asked to see the books on monies coming in and monies going out. They laughed and said "impossible". I asked why and they kept repeating "impossible". I asked them how much money they received from the central government each month and they would not answer. Then I asked them to show me the salary of each person working for the local adminstration. They said "impossible" again.

[Meridian007]

I know exactly where the BTS is in relation to Lumpini.

I am not saying what you said isn't feasible. It is just I would dearly love some independent corroboration. I don't believe a word that comes out of Suthep's mouth anymore. This doesn't mean I am red, it is just I think he is a complete buffoon. Of course by now it is lunchtime the next day, and as yet, not even an eyewitness account in the English language press.

Of course, we have a statement from a TV star about his supposed role as front and centre on the Nation, because that is real news.

I've already given the quote from The Globe and Mail's Mark Mackinnon, but here it is again (I'm sure that it will colour his article about what happened, but he is still busy reporting from there now, so he hasn't written anything released by the Globe yet):

What I saw/heard were fireworks fired from Red side over police barricade. Not M79s, as some reporting.

That was at shortly after 8pm, when the grenades were fired that ended up at the BTS. The fireworks were to disguise the distinctive noise of the M79, but he clearly states that it came from the red side. Can you honestly tell me that it is just a coincidence that the grenades were fired at the exact same time, (corroborated by the immediate damage afterwards)? Or that the military or non-red shirts were able to time firing with the fireworks? It is pretty clear that it is the reds, and it was an unfortunate decision on their part.

-------

Sorry, forgot to give a reference link: http://twitter.com/markmackinnon You'll have to look back into his tweets from last night.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Meridian007

[humfurry]

good article here..........Japanese Times

Excellent article.

Written by a former Oxford Fellow, I suspect this one is not a Geordie.

It's not an news article, it's an opinion... It belongs on the editorial page.

[gigiman]

Well, there are apparently dozens and dozens of reporters down there. Presumably with dozens of cameras both still and video pointing in all sorts of directions.

Someone will have a video of something that will shed a lot of light on where and how a grenade came to land on the BTS. Presumably the BTS has cameras so where is the footage?

I am still unsure how anyone could fire from road level onto the platform accurately. They could fire onto the walkways of course. The story is that the grenades came from Lumpini and one came down through the "roof" of the BTS? Another newspaper is still claiming "unknown" areas for the launch and has a differing number for the numbers of casualties. Some say 5 grenades, some 3, some landing on the platforms, some on walkways. One says one grenade landed at the Dusit Thani, the other not. The newspapers don't even have a conclusive story, and I tell you I won't believe a word that comes out of Suthep's or the red's mouth about this type of thing.

The story is so confused, and apparently despite there being so many cameras around, as yet, very little CONCRETE evidence.

For some video after the fact, that shows the holes on the roof, look at Olivier Rottrou's video on this page, (it's the first one): http://thailand.media140.org/bangkok/?p=1218

You won't get video of them launching for two reasons. One, the red side was kept dark, the only well lit area was the silom side of the barricades, which is why the pictures and videos you see are from there.

Second, if it was M79, you aren't going to see a definable trail when it is launched.

Therefore, you can't get video, and must look for other sources for verification of what happened.

As to the distances, the M79 has an effective distance of 350m and a less accurate distance of 400m. With these distances it is possible to hit the roof of the BTS, and then explode. Different trajectories, and the possibility of a bounce before explosion would cause the differnce in distances along the BTS station. Go to google maps and map it out if you don't believe me, It is possible to hit the BTS from Lumpini.

I know exactly where the BTS is in relation to Lumpini.

I am not saying what you said isn't feasible. It is just I would dearly love some independent corroboration. I don't believe a word that comes out of Suthep's mouth anymore. This doesn't mean I am red, it is just I think he is a complete buffoon. Of course by now it is lunchtime the next day, and as yet, not even an eyewitness account in the English language press.

Of course, we have a statement from a TV star about his supposed role as front and centre on the Nation, because that is real news.

NEWS FLASH:

There cannot be any confusion . We probably will never know who launched the grenades.

But , it is fair to say we do have proof that this whole confrontation was provoked by the government !!!

If not, why would the government under any circumstances let the yellow shirts get near the reds to antagonize the situation. IF SILOM ROAD WAS DECLARED OFF LIMITS TO THE REDS ,,, WHY WERE THE YELLOWS ALLOWED TO PROTEST ,, AND CONGREGATE THERE . Why the double standard ? No government can claim to be that stupid ,,, and certainly not this one ,,, it was planned its obvious.

This is a typical fascist " divide and conquer " strategy which is to provoke a crisis and then use force to resolve it in the name of the state.

Hence, the claims by all you posters here who think you know for sure the reds started the grenade throwing will always be left in doubt once again . Just like the still lingering questions of the deaths on April 10 because the government lied about only using rubber bullets etc.

[Thai at Heart]

I know exactly where the BTS is in relation to Lumpini.

I am not saying what you said isn't feasible. It is just I would dearly love some independent corroboration. I don't believe a word that comes out of Suthep's mouth anymore. This doesn't mean I am red, it is just I think he is a complete buffoon. Of course by now it is lunchtime the next day, and as yet, not even an eyewitness account in the English language press.

Of course, we have a statement from a TV star about his supposed role as front and centre on the Nation, because that is real news.

I've already given the quote from The Globe and Mail's Mark Mackinnon, but here it is again (I'm sure that it will colour his article about what happened, but he is still busy reporting from there now, so he hasn't written anything released by the Globe yet):

What I saw/heard were fireworks fired from Red side over police barricade. Not M79s, as some reporting.

That was at shortly after 8pm, when the grenades were fired that ended up at the BTS. The fireworks were to disguise the distinctive noise of the M79, but he clearly states that it came from the red side. Can you honestly tell me that it is just a coincidence that the grenades were fired at the exact same time, (corroborated by the immediate damage afterwards)? Or that the military or non-red shirts were able to time firing with the fireworks? It is pretty clear that it is the reds, and it was an unfortunate decision on their part.

I just watched the videos. A great bit of journalism as opposed to the dial in journalism from the Thai networks.

A few questions to the experts out there. If these were grenades how big a hole would they be expected to make in sheet metal roofing.

Seems like a likely place to start I would think.

For me the holes don't look particularly big, seems like the devices blew holes in the roof and bits/schrapnel must have hit the people on the platform. One would imagine the explosions all would have had to be there at approximately the same time, i.e within 30 seconds to a minute of each other.

[chantorn]

Robinson's is based out of Singapore, so clearly this is a Temasek-related Thaksin plot and the soldiers work for Lee Kuan Yew! Certainly someone must have put together this conspiracy theory by now as it's no more strained than half of what's out there (including the conflicting accounts you quoted and queried about, which I wondered about as well, heh).

As Chaimai said, "I have reached that point as well. Logic and reasoning left the scene long ago." That about sums it up. At this point all I know how to do is watch this unfold from a distance.

I don't think the Singapore Robinson & Thai Robinson are related.

http://www.set.or.th/set/companyholder.do?...&country=US

Looking at the shareholding, it belong to the Central Group.

Nice try.

Hmmmm...

Intelligent, resourceful, and willing.. no eager to go completely commando under only a clear plastic sheet!

::::sigh:::::

3 attributes I wish *all* Thai girls would aspire to!

Thank goodness my own GF's quite a stunner (in clothes, or plastic), or I'd be seriously jonesing to get a look at you in your colorless outfit..

Slightly back ontopic; I'd wear clear plastic all day (or mandate that anyone with a halfway decent body would have to also) if I thought it might engender an end to this current situation. Heck, I'd walk around Bangkok naked with 2 rabid monkeys chained to my balls with live wires, if I thought it would help end this childish, ancient feudal bullpoop that's now RUINING the whole country, both here on the ground, and in the eyes of the world.

Especially grenades lobbed at innocent people waiting for a train.

I'm actually starting to engineer an exit strategy for getting the life I've built in Bangkok, OUT of Bangkok, if this terrorism continues. That's horrible.

Hey. Thailand.

Yeah, you.

All 63.5 million of you.

Look.... It's 2010.

GROW UP ALREADY.

Trust me. Lots of things become more fun, when you grow up. Lots.

Heard of Godiva?

She's my hero.