Visa/passport Application While On Tourist Visa In Uk

[manjara]

We recently applied for and were successful in getting a 10 year visitor visa for my wife to come to the UK. I got 2 year visas for the kids so that I had enough time to apply and get them UK passports. We were living in Turkey for the past year and applied from there.

The plan was that we would be living in Europe after the summer, but until then we would stay with my father in the UK.

Now the work plans have changed and I will now be going to Saudi Arabia with occasional 'home-leave' trips.

My question is whether it will be easy/possible to apply for visitor visas to Schengen countries from the UK while on a visitor visa there, and how long those visas can be for?

The UK visa website only says that it is not 'recommended' to spend more than 180 days as it may prejudice future visa applications - but the logic there is unclear, especially in the case of a 10 year visa.

I'd also like to know if it is possible to stay more than 180 days in the UK in 2 or more visits (with say a 3 month sojourn to europe in the middle)

My wife does not want to go to Saudi, nor does she want to return to Thailand, and it is not possible, as far as I know, to convert a visitor visa to a settlement visa without returning to Thailand (where the process would take up to 12 weeks from what I hear). Plus there would be the pain of having paid a fortune for a 10 year visa only to have to pay another fortune to get a settlement visa!

Does anyone have any advice?

[CharlieB]

The 180 day rule is a guideline that you should only spend 6 out of every 12 months in the UK. The logic is not unclear. It is a visit visa, to be used for visits to the UK, not for living in the UK and pretending you are only on holiday there. The 10 year visa is for your convenience, to stop you from having to re-apply every time you want to enter, not to allow a 10 year holiday in the UK.

[paully]

"1. it is not 'recommended' to spend more than 180 days as it may prejudice future visa applications - but the logic there is unclear, especially in the case of a 10 year visa.

I'd also like to know if it is possible to stay more than 180 days in the UK in 2 or more visits (with say a 3 month sojourn to europe in the middle)

2. it is not possible, as far as I know, to convert a visitor visa to a settlement visa without returning to Thailand"

1. The logic isn't unclear, manjara - a visitor visa is intended for relatively short stays up to 6 months at a time. If it appears that the visitor visa holder is essentially living in the UK with short breaks abroad in between then they are not, strictly speaking, a visitor and should be in possession of a settlement visa instead.

2. Correct, your wife cannot convert a visitor visa to a settlement visa in the UK. If she wants one she needs to return to Thailand.

Edited April 29, 2010 by paully

[manjara]

It is 'intended for' short visits. This is a problem of circumstance in the relatively short term (i.e. 1 year), where we might need to be in the UK for longer than 6 months. This is only because my work plans changed (1 contract was cancelled and I am switching to another). I know the purpose of the visa, and if I had planned to STAY in the UK for the next 2 years I would have got the settlement visa instead of a 10 year visitor visa.

Now, because the new contract is in Saudi and my wife doesn't want to go back to Thailand I am trying to work out where my family should be over the next 12 months, maybe we can get 2 Schengen visas with stays in the UK in between, but that would be disruptive to the kids, so I would rather spend as much time as possible in one country.

As far as the logic is concerned, staying longer than 6 months in the first year of a 10 year visa would hardly influence future visa applications unless we did it every year. We have no intention of doing that. As it is only a recommendation, they will not (or should not) revoke the current visa because we stay longer than 6 months, therefore in my book it is a possibility in my current predicament.

My fear is that if this recommendation is on a level of 'strongly discouraged/frowned upon' and we decide in the next year or 2 to move back to the UK permanently and apply for settlement, then I would prefer to go somewhere else for 6 months, to avoid the black mark.

So then the question becomes;

Where can we get visas for for 3-6 months without returning to Thailand to get them?

[theoldgit]

The other thing to bear in mind is that a visa does not guarantee you entry, if the IO at the border notes that the visa holder has consistently exceeded the guidance of six months in the UK in a 12 month period then they could deny entry.

[hunglikea]

The other thing to bear in mind is that a visa does not guarantee you entry, if the IO at the border notes that the visa holder has consistently exceeded the guidance of six months in the UK in a 12 month period then they could deny entry.

My wife had/has a 'permanent leave to remain' sticker in her passport since 2002 but as we haven't lived in UK for more than 3 months a year for the past 2 years will it still be valid if we revisit UK or will she now require a tourist visa?

[theoldgit]

My wife had/has a 'permanent leave to remain' sticker in her passport since 2002 but as we haven't lived in UK for more than 3 months a year for the past 2 years will it still be valid if we revisit UK or will she now require a tourist visa?

Sorry I'm not 100% sure about the requirement to spend time in the UK with permanent leave to remain though I think you neet to be out of the country for two years before you would encounter a problem, but that's only think.

I was just pointing out a potential problem with a visit visa, albeit one with a ten year validity where somebody spent more than six months in the UK.

[jasonr3255]

The other thing to bear in mind is that a visa does not guarantee you entry, if the IO at the border notes that the visa holder has consistently exceeded the guidance of six months in the UK in a 12 month period then they could deny entry.

My wife had/has a 'permanent leave to remain' sticker in her passport since 2002 but as we haven't lived in UK for more than 3 months a year for the past 2 years will it still be valid if we revisit UK or will she now require a tourist visa?

ILR or resident permit as it is now known has only one condition, that you do not spend more than 2 years out of the UK, otherwise you will have to apply as a returning resident for settlement again...! You can stay in the UK for as long or little as you wish with a perminent resident visa (ILR) Although Immigration may want an explanation if they feel you are exploiting the Permit crazy as it may seem.

[7by7]

A visit visa, even a 10 year one, only allows the holder to spend a maximum of 6 months in the UK on any one visit. Staying any longer than this would mean the holder is breaking the conditions of their visa.

The convention is that a visitor to the UK should not spend more than 6 months out of any 12 in the UK; though it's a convention, not a rule. However, if one were to spend longer than this in the UK then one may have to justify it to an IO at the port of entry or an ECO when applying for a new visa once it had expired.

If it appeared that one was using a long term visit visa to actually live in the UK then one could be refused entry, or any future UK visa application may be refused.

Schengen visas have to be applied for in one's country of residence; as do UK visas.

If you are still resident in Turkey then she can apply for UK settlement there. If she moves to Saudi with you she can apply there. Provided, of course, that she has the appropriate residency visa for the country where she applies.

Otherwise she will have to return to Thailand and apply there.

[7by7]

ILR or resident permit as it is now known has only one condition, that you do not spend more than 2 years out of the UK, otherwise you will have to apply as a returning resident for settlement again...! You can stay in the UK for as long or little as you wish with a perminent resident visa (ILR) Although Immigration may want an explanation if they feel you are exploiting the Permit crazy as it may seem.

Sorry, not the case.

If an ILR holder is living out of the UK and using their ILR just for visits and this became evident to an IO at a port of entry then the IO could, and probably would, endorse the ILR so that it allowed entry on this occasion as a visitor but after that was canceled.

ILR is indefinite; not permanent.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

I had one client who managed to get a Schengen visa whilst his partner was in the UK on a fiance visa !!

[7by7]

But a fiance visa is a settlement visa, not a visit one!

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Try getting a Schengen visa whilst in the UK without a marriage certificate !

Documents required for spouses of EU nationals:

•EU-national's passport + copy

•applicant's passport + copy

•marriage certificate + copy

•address in Germany

•visa application form with one passport picture

[7by7]

True, an applicant who is not the spouse of an EU citizen would have to provide more information on the form and more documentation than one who is; but if a UK resident they can still apply for a Schengen visa in the UK.

As they have entered for a settled purpose, then I am sure that a fiance would be classed as resident, as would, I think, a student or work permit holder; but I stand to be corrected on this.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Settlement

You are only classed settled on the above a Fiancé visa is a 6 month window to marry once married you apply for settlement using form set (M) if you enter as the spouse etc you already have a 2 year & 3 months visa inserted allowing you time to enter the country .

If you was in fact on a settlement visa already why would you have to apply for settlement again ?

If you marry in Thailand and apply and receive your 2 year visa the wording is visa/spouse of Mr Bloggs.

If you apply as the Fiancé the wording on the visa is Visa Marriage/ Mr Bloggs, some clients enter with the intention of marrying but they do not in fact marry . You are entering the country with the intention to marry your partner or enter into a civil partnership etc, you are of course intending to settle here.

Edited May 2, 2010 by ThaiVisaExpress

[7by7]

Remember that the UKBA pages you have linked to refer to in UK applications; and what they mean by settlement is ILR and the equivalent. Your argument means that the page you have linked to means that those entering with a 27 month spouse visa are also not classed as residents as they too have not yet been granted ILR or the equivalent and so, as you put it, have to apply for settlement again!

It is true that some people enter as a fiance and then never marry and leave; it is equally true that some people enter as a spouse but leave before obtaining ILR.

The immigration rules refer to entry as a fiance or proposed civil partner as

leave to enter the United Kingdom as a fiance(e) or proposed civil partner (i.e. with a view to marriage or civil partnership and permanent settlement in the United Kingdom)

The entry clearance guidance has fiance applications in the settlement section.

Fiance visa applicants apply using form VAF4A; the settlement form.

However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. You said yourself that you have a client who obtained a Schengen visa for someone when they were in the UK with a fiance visa; so the embassy that issued it certainly seems to have considered them resident in the UK.

[Phil_ne_uk]

I would consider that someone entering the UK on a fiance visa would be classed as a temporary resident because as you say, some never marry and leave the UK.

I intend to return to the UK to live with my Thai girlfriend as “unmarried partners” as we have lived together in Thailand for 5 years. I’m wondering if we wanted to go to Europe for a holiday, would she be granted a Schengen visa as we’re not married?

I know that if a brit has a Thai wife she still needs a Schengen visa for Europe which is issued free of charge but she would need to show her marriage certificate.

Any ideas how my girlfriend would get a Schengen visa? Would having ILE be sufficient to be eligible?

[7by7]

Your partner will be able to apply for a Schengen visa in the UK as she will be resident in the UK. However, as I understand it, the concessions that apply to the spouse of an EU citizen would not apply to her so she would have to complete the whole form and pay the fee.

[Phil_ne_uk]

Your partner will be able to apply for a Schengen visa in the UK as she will be resident in the UK. However, as I understand it, the concessions that apply to the spouse of an EU citizen would not apply to her so she would have to complete the whole form and pay the fee.

Thanks for your reply 7by7.

What a rip off having to pay for the visa, typical!

[7by7]

I do not consider visa applicants having to pay for a visa application to be a rip off. Why should the general taxpayer cover the cost?

The level of the fees, though, especially the fees for a UK visa set by Labour; that's another story!

I am aware that various EU/EEA treaties mean that EEA family permits, Schengen visas etc. are free to EU/EEA nationals and their families; that I do consider to be a rip off; and it's the EU/EEA taxpayer that's being ripped off!

[Phil_ne_uk]

According to The directive 2004/38/EC unmarried partners in a durable relationship should be classed as the same as married partners and receive a Schengen visa free of charge.

So I meant it was a rip off because if as you stated, unmarried partners have to pay for Schengen visas, as opposed to married Thai’s who are issued the visa free of charge when settled in the UK.

[7by7]

I must admit that I was taking my information from the French embassy application form; which mentions spouses, children and ascendant dependents only. However, if the directive says that partners in a durable relationship count, then go for it.

But I'd recommend checking with the embassy concerned first to ascertain what evidence of a durable relationship they require.

[Phil_ne_uk]

We went down that road last year when we had an idea to live in France.

However the to$$ers at the embassy in BKK told us they only accept married couples. I tried showing them documents stating that couples in a durable relationship also qualify but they wouldn’t listen!

I asked Solvit UK to take up the case to fight it. They agreed I was correct and liased with Solvit France. After about 12 weeks of waiting they told me they couldn’t influence the French authorities.

So basically they were bl00dy useless to say the least!

It seems that it’s only the UK who accept unmarried partners, but you have to pay a fee when returning to live in your own country, as in the UK.

If moving to any EU country other than your country of origin, then the visa for residency should be issued and be free of charge!

If anyone wants to move to an EU country as cohabiting partners in a durable relationship then they should fight against whatever the idiots in the various embassies say when they say they only accept married couples. The Spanish embassy staff are just as awkward as French embassy staff!

I hope this info helps someone.

Phil

[manjara]

My brother lives in china and is married to a chinese. He applied for a Schengen visa at the Danish embassy based on the fact that he was married to her therefore she should e able to get a visa automatically, based on the directive.

He had a long battle which lasted around 9months, obviously blowing all his holiday plans, and in the end the Danish embassy attempted to `settle out of court`, i.e. without an official admission that he was correct.

It is unfortunate that all of these countries are able to be so restrictive, but it is becoming more difficult, not less difficult, to travel if you are not from the `right` countries.

I am going to attempt to get a Schengen visa while in the UK, so I will let you know how it goes. I am not optimistic.

[7by7]

Phil, I had, admittedly, forgotten that the directive says an unmarried couple in a durable relationship are to be treated as a married couple. However, it also says that it is up to individual states to determine what counts as a durable relationship.

The UK is not, of course, in the Schengen area, but when dealing with EEA family permits the UK uses the same criterion as that in the immigration rules; living together in a relationship akin to marriage for at least two years. I've no idea, I'm afraid, what criterion France uses.

Manjara, are you saying that your brother's wife applied to the Danish embassy in China? If so, I'd be very interested if you can tell us what possible reason they gave for refusing.

[steve187]

ILR or resident permit as it is now known has only one condition, that you do not spend more than 2 years out of the UK, otherwise you will have to apply as a returning resident for settlement again...! You can stay in the UK for as long or little as you wish with a perminent resident visa (ILR) Although Immigration may want an explanation if they feel you are exploiting the Permit crazy as it may seem.

Sorry, not the case.

If an ILR holder is living out of the UK and using their ILR just for visits and this became evident to an IO at a port of entry then the IO could, and probably would, endorse the ILR so that it allowed entry on this occasion as a visitor but after that was canceled.

ILR is indefinite; not permanent.

A friend of mine has just returned from a holiday in the UK on an ILR visa, and was allowed entry on this occasion, but the ILR was canceled, she was last in the uk for a visit in 2008. she will have to apply for a visitors visa next time.

[manjara]

Phil, I had, admittedly, forgotten that the directive says an unmarried couple in a durable relationship are to be treated as a married couple. However, it also says that it is up to individual states to determine what counts as a durable relationship.

The UK is not, of course, in the Schengen area, but when dealing with EEA family permits the UK uses the same criterion as that in the immigration rules; living together in a relationship akin to marriage for at least two years. I've no idea, I'm afraid, what criterion France uses.

Manjara, are you saying that your brother's wife applied to the Danish embassy in China? If so, I'd be very interested if you can tell us what possible reason they gave for refusing.

Hi, sorry, I have been 'offline' for a while. Yes my brother applied to the Danish Embassy in China. They required a sponsor in Denmark to allow the visa, but my brother argued that as an EU citizen, his 'sponsorship' should be sufficient (I think that was how it went, but I would have to confirm with my brother to be sure). As I said, in the end, after my brother involved the EU, he was offered the visa without the embassy admitting any error, but he refused. I don't think he pushed to get an official clarification, which would have been very useful in future (as I'm sure the Danish embassy were aware)