Clashes Continue, Turning Central Bangkok In Virtual Warzone

[humfurry]

Why don't we just chop up Thailand? Everything north of Chai Nat can be called Thailand and Chiangmai as the capital and everything south be called Siam and Bangkok as capital. Reds in the North Yellow in the south problem solved the only problem is then the farangs will have nothing to bitch and fight about.

Will have lot for falang to bitch about.

no cheap workers, drivers, cleaners and bar girls. This is only people from north that too many falang know.

this why some falang support a government they know nothing about it. It is all they know and they like to think that because falang, they are different from poor workers and bar girls so must be hi-so and then support gov.

I'm afraid that you don't understand the consequences. Compared to the govt expenditure in Isaan, very little tax is received. The tax base (in isaan) would have to be widened (read income tax) and/or govt expenditure savagely reduced. You also have the expense of setting up all the infrastructure of a govt. Most of the workers in Isaan are low paid because they a low value producers, and without tax help from the south, they will stay that way.

Meanwhile in the south, they buy their produce from the southern provinces, boosting their incomes (and taxes) and reducing the current tensions.

To summarise, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Isaan workers would still be allowed down south, but without the protections they now get as thai citizens - they become the "new" burmese, cambodians or laos.

And the Bangkokians wil fight by themseves the Southern unrest as they will have no more Northern conscrits.....

There are always the Burmese... I'm sure they would love the payday.

[RussellHantz]

Instead of constantly criticising my posts, cheering flamers, and making cringe worthy sleazy come-ons to the female members of this forum, why don't you post something intelligent for a change ?

So rich coming from you. If you actually read what is being written here rusty, virtually everyone is critising your posts, you are truely a very troubled man person.

Priceless that you are asking me to post something intelligent

Mate, if I showed the posters on this forum the sick, sexually perverted PM you send me a few weeks ago, there wouldnt be any doubt about who the troubled person is....

[agord]

Abhisit might be honest but he has lost control of the country and therefore should stand down and let someone who can control things run the country but

we all know he wont because of the Thai's ridiculous fear of loosing face

im sure many Thais have a fear of loosening face just as Westerners but that's what plastic surgery is for eh. What does it have to do with running a country?

[pornsasi]

Abhisit is an honest man who has bent over backwards to avoid conflict yet the psychopathic leaders that manipulate the rank and file Red Shirt Brigade were and still are bent on extreme violence e and hatred from the start as their rhetoric so clearly showed and indeed still shows..

Twenty years here and Abhisit is the most progressive Prime minister to date willing to listen to all and his administration has implemented measures to assist the less well off in Thai society and indeed would have done more if it wasn't for the Red Shirt Brigaded actions to stall further measures as it was damaging thug Thaksin his family and their acolytes money stealing and law manipulation to yet further boost their fortunes at the expense of the majority.

The guy is an incompetent, irresponsible leader that has just brought the country to the edge of civil war, due to his impatience, frustration and unwillingness to show flexibility in negotiations. How much blood needs to be spilled under this idiots leadership before you tell him to resign ?

The blood lust on this forum is disgusting.

He has shown to be just the opposite to the rest of the world.

Sadly you seem to take your biased sources of information as gospel.

If anything he showed too much patients and flexability in the face of bad faith negotiating partners.

Thaksin needed his conflagration to try and bring down the Dems, problem is this is too much too late.

The world can see the Reds are not acting rationally and are not acting democraticly.

There was a good agreement the redssa walked away, and continued to whole the center of Bangkok hostage.

This has not been peaceful protest in some time.

I dont know where you get your info from , the Nation ?

According to neutral sources , i mean foreign papers , Thaksin has been pressing for negociation

since Abhisit advanced his roadmap .

And he is still pressing for negociation .

[lannarebirth]

I answered partially in my other post but let me make one more time things more clear. And PLEASE try to read my posts not as a supporter of reds or yellows but as a "third person".

You may read my posts as a red supporter who believes they are being led as lambs to slaughter by a violent megalomaniacal madman.

The fundamental purpose of a government is the maintenance of basic security and public order. Agree. When a government faces such a big political crisis that has seriously threaten public order it has one option. To restore order with all possible legal means and to put people that are breaking the law in jail. Agree. In fact this is the first government to even attempt that. If the government can not do this it means more or less that is is not capable to manage a country I disagree. The PM inherited a government with wholly incompetent, corrupt and disloyal parties. This crisis is flushing them out and he is making adjustments as necessary in about as stressful an environment as can be imagined. It may not appear like it but he has made progress. and it should seek re-assurance from the public. And that was IMHO the reason behind the PM's proposal for election on November. The people have trusted you to do a job if you can not do the job you have to ask again your people if they trust you or if they want to try something else. It sounds very simplistic but it is the essence of democratic governance. I think your first sentence is the essence of democratic government. Without it, elections don't mean very much.

Another point I'd like to make. Earlier tonight there were rumors circulating that the Deputy PM had been shot in the head by the Army. No corroboration so it probably didn't happen, but there isn't anyone reading this that doesn't believe that it is possible something like that could happen right now. That is not a climate for elections. Especially elections not due.

PS: I have to go to sleep now so I am sorry but I'll not be able to post more tonight. I promise that I'll come back Good night to everybody. Good Night.

Of course I can not convince you because you are so poisoned with the fight between specific persons (Abhisit, Thaksin etc.) that you can not see that everyone is doing mistakes in this story. As you can see in my posts I believe that the right is somewhere in the middle (which is the usual situation in political crisis) but you obviously have your agenda with Abhisit, Thaksin or whoever else.

You've only been here a couple of tears so I guess it is possible you don't know, but Abhisit's government IS the middle.

[jdinasia]

You should choose red to write your posts - do you really think this mob and especially their leaders show any qualifications to lead this country ???? you are probably hoping for Thaksin's return and lots of rewards for anyone who supported him - basically you are a traitor to Thailand

You are really limited and stubborn: I am not a Thaksin supporter... Difficult for you to understand as soon as we are not in line with your thoughts: too much complex??? It is you by your inability to dialog who is bringing Thailand to the verge of a Civil war and are in fact "Traitor to Thailand".

So are you now saying that the reds were open to dialogue. This has to be the funniest post I have ever read.

Typical red changes their position all the time.

you are just a partisan twisting my post.

I want Peace as a lot of people on this forum (Most of them silent). I do not think the blood bath we are assisting to is the solution.

We do not know the exact contents of the negociation, however we guess it has failed about the question of amnesty, and double standards: if it is true, it does not worth dozens of more deads and hundredth of more injuried.....

I am for PEACE. i belong to the moderate group in the middle opposed to the Partisans of any side who are filling this forum with hatred....

Jerry --- you are Red. You have always excused the red threats of violence as "negotiations". You have failed to speak out against the red use of violence and instead have excused it as being needed for change and then added historical references to the French revolution AND to violent mobs using force as part of negotiations in France and other parts of Europe. It is when the reds get HURT that you speak about peace.

The reds had a great deal offered to them. They wanted elections. They wanted investigations into April 10th, they wanted and wanted. They were offered what they wanted then added more and would not go home. They called for violence and then vowed to fight to the death. You called it "negotiations". Now that they have the violence THEY called for from the red stage .......

Your claim to non-partisanship is not true --- one has only to read your posts. You are Red.

[Ga-gai]

Abhisit is such an idiot.

He knew exactly what would result if he used force. Congratulations Abhisit, now you have it

He should have stuck to negotiations.

Abhisit is a disgusting excuse for a human being.

there you go again.

It appears to be an opinion shared by many posters here at TV, agord. Anyway, people like this just make the rest of us look good.

Instead of constantly criticising my posts, cheering flamers, and making cringe worthy sleazy come-ons to the female members of this forum, why don't you post something intelligent for a change ?

Well Russell... Here's something for you:

Edited May 15, 2010 by Ga-gai

[pimay11]

AN Network: Red-shirt leader Dr.Weng Tojirakarn admits the red camp is running out of supplies, told supporters to bring supplies through small routes.

Refreshing news indeed. I hope the government is able to close all routes to make sure their supply is not met.

It's the taking down of the phone networks which should be most effective, without their life support the women should be going insane with boredom within a few hours.

I see you have visited my village.

[brahmburgers]

Was on Thai TV that the 10yr old boy had been hanging around for a while and had been told by the soldiers many times to leave and go home but he would not go.

They said he was lying on the footpath or road and with the army shooting at the van tyres of a speeding van there ware bound to be some bullets flying around.

Not shooting wildly as some silly bugger sugested

Look a minute ago he was in the van with the driver..

The stories just keep getting changed..

If theres not some wild firing then who are all these bystanders and journos getting hit by ?? Targetted fire ??

About the kid who was shot. Sad indeed. However, anyone not needing to be at the scene, should be gone. It's a battle zone (not a 'virtual Warzone' as the OP title suggests), and stray bullets and missiles are part of the equation.

As for shooting up the van, there's nothing wrong with that, considering the situation. Indeed, much more of that sort of resolve should have been going on earlier, then the problems would not have grown to the sorry state they're at now.

I hope CRES doesn't go soft now, after committing troops for the past 2 days. Indeed, it might be getting close to doing an all out assault on the remaining Reds, rather than just dingle dangling around the perimeters. If the whole idea is to disperse the crowd, then go to work and do it.

Abhisit is staying the course, and the Thai people should be proud of him for finding his resolve and doing what needs to be done.

[Ulysses G.]

I have a different opinion of Abhisit. I admire him for the restraint he has shown. He has an almost impossible job. I wouldn't like to have to do it.

Anyone calling for his replacement is an imbecile. He is one of the few decent PMs that Thailand has ever had.

If he goes, he will be replaced with a strongman - and probably not a very bright one - and it will be civil war for sure.

[Steely Dan]

Children & elders make up 70% of protesters

Former senator and secretary of a children foundation Wallop Tangkhananurak issued a statement for red-shirt leaders to evacuate children and elders, which he estimated made up 70% of protesters at Ratchaprasong rally.

-- Tan Network 2010-05-15

Oh hail brave leaders, spewing out hate whilst surrounded by human shields, hiding in their capsule and sleeping in aircon hotel rooms. I salute your bravery at taking millions of Baht from Thaksin who stole it from the Thai people to begin with. Your concern for the rural poor is a shining example to us all

[lannarebirth]

Yes, and I have to say that I was quite supportive of the PM's proposal for elections on November. And then, two days ago he decided that he will call the elections off because "the reds didn't keep their promises". Are we serious? If the reds are a mob of criminals as the government says was anyone expecting that they will keep their promises? What about a statement saying "I go with the plan for election on November and at the same time I take all legal measures to stop the demonstrations". He is the PM of a country, he is not a kid that will abandon his toy just to break the toy of the other kid! Generally I like him, he seems a calm, educated person but his governance style doesn't work out! It is to "amateur". It is not aboung being patient as some members say, I think it is about being non-decisive at all! When you are a PM, and especially one that want to bring change in a country, you have to make difficult but necessary decission. And these decisions have not been made so far IMHO.

There are really only two ways to proceed in Thailand. There is Abhisit's way, which may not succeed, whereby you try to neutralize all the variables in a highly entropic situation as the country undergoes the only succession its people have ever experienced, OR you let the military take over, who may not relinquish power after the succession. Those are the choices. You might imagine there are many other choices but really there are not if Thailand is to not become a failed state.

Sorry but you are completely wrong here regarding the basis of your argument "Abhisit or the Army". The choice is "Politics or the Army". Just by saying that only one politician can do things right you cancel the main principle of democracy which is that everyone has the right to govern.

My country made the mistake to create a similar dilemma almost 50 years ago "Mister X or the Army" instead of "Politicians or the Army". We made our choices and such a mess happened that we pay the consequences until today;

He is not saying ONLY Abhisit can do this,

he is saying there are two ways to go with this.

Not a thing about negating any priciple of democracy,

you read that in yourself.

I thought that would be self evident. Abhisit is the legitimate political leader. There is no other legitimate political leader at present and there is no loyal opposition either. I wonder why he didn't address that point. Elections are but one factor in a functional democracy. You need rule of law and a loyal opposition as well. Neither are in evidence but one hopes that if the government can prevail those impediments can be overcome.

[seahorse]

Why don't we just chop up Thailand?

It may yet come to that.

[LivinLOS]

Was on Thai TV that the 10yr old boy had been hanging around for a while and had been told by the soldiers many times to leave and go home but he would not go.

They said he was lying on the footpath or road and with the army shooting at the van tyres of a speeding van there ware bound to be some bullets flying around.

Not shooting wildly as some silly bugger sugested

Look a minute ago he was in the van with the driver..

The stories just keep getting changed..

If theres not some wild firing then who are all these bystanders and journos getting hit by ?? Targetted fire ??

About the kid who was shot. Sad indeed. However, anyone not needing to be at the scene, should be gone. It's a battle zone (not a 'virtual Warzone' as the OP title suggests), and stray bullets and missiles are part of the equation.

As for shooting up the van, there's nothing wrong with that, considering the situation. Indeed, much more of that sort of resolve should have been going on earlier, then the problems would not have grown to the sorry state they're at now.

Agreed on both..

[landofthefree]

I answered partially in my other post but let me make one more time things more clear. And PLEASE try to read my posts not as a supporter of reds or yellows but as a "third person".

You may read my posts as a red supporter who believes they are being led as lambs to slaughter by a violent megalomaniacal madman.

The fundamental purpose of a government is the maintenance of basic security and public order. Agree. When a government faces such a big political crisis that has seriously threaten public order it has one option. To restore order with all possible legal means and to put people that are breaking the law in jail. Agree. In fact this is the first government to even attempt that. If the government can not do this it means more or less that is is not capable to manage a country I disagree. The PM inherited a government with wholly incompetent, corrupt and disloyal parties. This crisis is flushing them out and he is making adjustments as necessary in about as stressful an environment as can be imagined. It may not appear like it but he has made progress. and it should seek re-assurance from the public. And that was IMHO the reason behind the PM's proposal for election on November. The people have trusted you to do a job if you can not do the job you have to ask again your people if they trust you or if they want to try something else. It sounds very simplistic but it is the essence of democratic governance. I think your first sentence is the essence of democratic government. Without it, elections don't mean very much.

Another point I'd like to make. Earlier tonight there were rumors circulating that the Deputy PM had been shot in the head by the Army. No corroboration so it probably didn't happen, but there isn't anyone reading this that doesn't believe that it is possible something like that could happen right now. That is not a climate for elections. Especially elections not due.

PS: I have to go to sleep now so I am sorry but I'll not be able to post more tonight. I promise that I'll come back Good night to everybody. Good Night.

Of course I can not convince you because you are so poisoned with the fight between specific persons (Abhisit, Thaksin etc.) that you can not see that everyone is doing mistakes in this story. As you can see in my posts I believe that the right is somewhere in the middle (which is the usual situation in political crisis) but you obviously have your agenda with Abhisit, Thaksin or whoever else.

You've only been here a couple of tears so I guess it is possible you don't know, but Abhisit's government IS the middle.

All Abhisit has to do to stop this is to call an election, how many more people must die before he does what he inevitably will

have to end up doing?

[jdinasia]

You should choose red to write your posts - do you really think this mob and especially their leaders show any qualifications to lead this country ???? you are probably hoping for Thaksin's return and lots of rewards for anyone who supported him - basically you are a traitor to Thailand

You are really limited and stubborn: I am not a Thaksin supporter... Difficult for you to understand as soon as we are not in line with your thoughts: too much complex??? It is you by your inability to dialog who is bringing Thailand to the verge of a Civil war and are in fact "Traitor to Thailand".

So are you now saying that the reds were open to dialogue. This has to be the funniest post I have ever read.

Typical red changes their position all the time.

you are just a partisan twisting my post.

I want Peace as a lot of people on this forum (Most of them silent). I do not think the blood bath we are assisting to is the solution.

We do not know the exact contents of the negociation, however we guess it has failed about the question of amnesty, and double standards: if it is true, it does not worth dozens of more deads and hundredth of more injuried.....

I am for PEACE. i belong to the moderate group in the middle opposed to the Partisans of any side who are filling this forum with hatred....

Jerry ---- your claims to be non-partisan are not true. You have excused the reds for everything. When the leaders call for violence from the red stage you call it "negotiation". When the Reds act violently you say "bad" and THEN you excuse them by saying that change has always been violent. You say violence is bad then compare the reds to Unionists in France having to be violent to get change. You compare them to the French Revolution and excuse the violence.

All it takes to see which side you fall in with is to look at your post history. You are RED.

[neverdie]

Instead of constantly criticising my posts, cheering flamers, and making cringe worthy sleazy come-ons to the female members of this forum, why don't you post something intelligent for a change ?

So rich coming from you. If you actually read what is being written here rusty, virtually everyone is critising your posts, you are truely a very troubled man person.

Priceless that you are asking me to post something intelligent

Mate, if I showed the posters on this forum the sick, sexually perverted PM you send me a few weeks ago, there wouldnt be any doubt about who the troubled person is....

Russell,

You seem to be struggling with a grasp on the english language. In the PM, I simply referred to you as a D... H... (NEWSFLASH: Its not a sexually motivated thing) .

Anyway Rusty, you're constant braindead half truths and propaganda messages are very boring. Do you understand that? What other language would you like me to post it in? How does any man get this message through to you?

[pornsasi]

Jerry --- you are Red. You have always excused the red threats of violence as "negotiations". You have failed to speak out against the red use of violence and instead have excused it as being needed for change and then added historical references to the French revolution AND to violent mobs using force as part of negotiations in France and other parts of Europe. It is when the reds get HURT that you speak about peace.

The reds had a great deal offered to them. They wanted elections. They wanted investigations into April 10th, they wanted and wanted. They were offered what they wanted then added more and would not go home. They called for violence and then vowed to fight to the death. You called it "negotiations". Now that they have the violence THEY called for from the red stage .......

Your claim to non-partisanship is not true --- one has only to read your posts. You are Red.

If asking for PEACE and no deaths is beeing red then I am red too and so is

most of the rest of the world , including a vast majority of thais .

Go on Jerry ....

[MacWalen]

"Children & elders make up 70% of protesters

Former senator and secretary of a children foundation Wallop Tangkhananurak issued a statement for red-shirt leaders to evacuate children and elders, which he estimated made up 70% of protesters at Ratchaprasong rally."

Taken from the update in another thread. This is so sick!!! Are these really tactics approved by the leadership of red shirt movement? If women and children get hurt, they have only themselves to blame, but if there are any mothers there with kids I totally could not understand it.

[powderpuff]

Thaksin is as washed up as Richard Nixon.

The man should learn to exit gracefully.

He is neither needed nor wanted. The cult of Thaksin is dead.

[littleMo]

In the peaceful coup of 2006, the army rolled onto the streets with an impressive display of tanks and armoured personnel carriers.

I don't really understand why they simply don't bring this lot out now when it is needed. The troops would be properly protected, would not need to shoot wildly in self-defence at risk of hurting non-combatants, and they could simply roll over the barricades and secure the red areas with little bloodshed.

Surely the worry about 'but what will everyone think if we use tanks?' is long past. There is violent disorder in the heart of a capital city, and half-trained half-hearted concripts running around with shotguns and M16s is not going to do anything except lead to further clashes and further deaths. By the look of Richard Barrow's 'bangkok dangerous map', the danger is spreading rather than being contained or reduced.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

[Zolt]

I see you don't like to jump to conclusions very quickly do you, you know nothing of the story but have already convicted the parents, were they even reshirts where were they trying to go and for what. Do you even care?

The guys tried to break through an army checkpoint! What more info do you need?

[viking75]

Din Daeng gone red again.

Udon Thani Town Hall under seige.

Convoys of Reds blocked from entering Bangkok about to get feisty!

Sure they got this contained at Rajprasong?

[rogerx007]

Children & elders make up 70% of protesters

Former senator and secretary of a children foundation Wallop Tangkhananurak issued a statement for red-shirt leaders to evacuate children and elders, which he estimated made up 70% of protesters at Ratchaprasong rally.

-- Tan Network 2010-05-15

Oh hail brave leaders, spewing out hate whilst surrounded by human shields, hiding in their capsule and sleeping in aircon hotel rooms. I salute your bravery at taking millions of Baht from Thaksin who stole it from the Thai people to begin with. Your concern for the rural poor is a shining example to us all

Childrens shudn't be there for sure... but elders..

I missed it if Govt had an age limit for protesters who want to occupy any mall within the city....

[RussellHantz]

Russell,

You seem to be struggling with a grasp on the english language. In the PM, I simply referred to you as a D... H... (NEWSFLASH: Its not a sexually motivated thing) .

Anyway Rusty, you're constant braindead half truths and propaganda messages are very boring. Do you understand that? What other language would you like me to post it in? How does any man get this message through to you?

Not with sleazy PMs mate. And if your so sure that your PM wasn't sleazy, feel free to post it - title and all - for all to see

[OzMick]

Anyone heard about something like that? Or misleading information?

Tweeter @freakingcat

# TNT reports 4 civilians got shot at Bon Kai. Shots are fired from buildings and people get hit! 4 minutes ago via web

# Thai Radio just said that at Bon Kai Reds shot civilians! Many injured...trying to get confirmation now...

I am reading the same. <snip> He appears to be the mastermind behind this. "...would unleash a nightmarish night for Bkk."

Another twitterer has described the situation differently

@photo_journ

4 protesters confirmed dead @ Din Daeng. Photographer witness. All head shot

Don't however miss that photo_journ has been caught lieing before, lies about his awards and was in the news regards to crime he committed in Malaysia and is a self-professed red shirt supporter...I would take his claim with grain of salt at times...

Original report was that those shot were not protesters. Sounds like the reds want a higher cas count for PR. Can't shoot your own in daylight.

[animatic]

Abhisit is an honest man who has bent over backwards to avoid conflict yet the psychopathic leaders that manipulate the rank and file Red Shirt Brigade were and still are bent on extreme violence e and hatred from the start as their rhetoric so clearly showed and indeed still shows..

Twenty years here and Abhisit is the most progressive Prime minister to date willing to listen to all and his administration has implemented measures to assist the less well off in Thai society and indeed would have done more if it wasn't for the Red Shirt Brigaded actions to stall further measures as it was damaging thug Thaksin his family and their acolytes money stealing and law manipulation to yet further boost their fortunes at the expense of the majority.

The guy is an incompetent, irresponsible leader that has just brought the country to the edge of civil war, due to his impatience, frustration and unwillingness to show flexibility in negotiations. How much blood needs to be spilled under this idiots leadership before you tell him to resign ?

The blood lust on this forum is disgusting.

He has shown to be just the opposite to the rest of the world.

Sadly you seem to take your biased sources of information as gospel.

If anything he showed too much patients and flexability in the face of bad faith negotiating partners.

Thaksin needed his conflagration to try and bring down the Dems, problem is this is too much too late.

The world can see the Reds are not acting rationally and are not acting democraticly.

There was a good agreement the redssa walked away, and continued to whole the center of Bangkok hostage.

This has not been peaceful protest in some time.

I dont know where you get your info from , the Nation ?

According to neutral sources , i mean foreign papers , Thaksin has been pressing for negociation

since Abhisit advanced his roadmap .

And he is still pressing for negociation .

One hand holds the knife to your backribs, while the other waves politly

and the mouth talks nice for the neighbors. But the implied threat is still the knife.

Just part of Thalksin's;

they are gone bad it's not me, I am the savior, game plan.

He only started this negotiation tack recently, before it was 'go to the end'.

He needs to change HIS perception by the world before he gets dragged down

with the red nutters, that HE created, financed, and lead through paid puppets.

Foreign papers are noted for only having a partial understanding of the situation,

and any that take Thaksin's PR pontifications as fact, are suspect on basic principles.

Edited May 15, 2010 by animatic

[Netfan]

Din Daeng gone red again.

Udon Thani Town Hall under seige.

Convoys of Reds blocked from entering Bangkok about to get feisty!

Sure they got this contained at Rajprasong?

Another red cheerleader happy that things are about to get more violent

[mccw]

and few minutes later the buffalo runs over u .. turning u into a piece of meat covered in blood which wud be darker shade of tht carrot.....

thts why the original "carrot and stick" had a rabbit in place of buffalo....

donky not rabbit

do they even eat carrot...

tes

the idea of "carrot and the stick" is from old days when your transport is a donkey, stuborn creatures they are, so you use a stick with a carrot dangling from the end and dangle in front donkey face, he walk forward to get the carrot, if he still dont go you give the donkey a smack on the arse with the stick instead.

hense the annalogy for 2 way to get the desired result; why would anyone want to smack a rabbit?

[pornsasi]

Din Daeng gone red again.

Udon Thani Town Hall under seige.

Convoys of Reds blocked from entering Bangkok about to get feisty!

Sure they got this contained at Rajprasong?

Ok , the governement will probably manage to disperse the Rajprasong gathering .

That remains to be see and few more deaths probably .

And then the reds will reappear somewhere else .

Then what ???