Thai Govt Must Now Deal With The Real Grievances

[DarwinK]

Erratum - Abhisit has presided over one of the biggest massacres in THailand for 2 decades.

Really? then what was this:

An estimated 2,500 people were killed during a three-month crackdown on drugs by Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2003....one of a half-dozen panels belatedly investigating the killings has reported that as many as 1,400 of those victims were killed and labeled drug suspects despite having no link to drugs.

More here: http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/512/th...ved_panel_finds

And the strange thing is, all those people who condemned Thaksin for the extrajudicial killings under his leadership, are the same people who are firmly throwing their support behind Abhisit for the extrajudicial killings under his leadership.

Can anyone spell H Y P O C R I T E ?

Wow, so then you are saying that you firmly support Thaksin for his extrajudicial killings?

Paid by Robert Amsterdam by chance?

[sgtpeppers]

Abhisit has no support internationally at all.

This goverment is not qualified to deal with the real grievances, they havent made any progress with reconcilliation (actually they did the opposite) so what makes anyone think they can heal the country?

One thing is for sure, the governemtn propaganda machine sure has brainwashed a lot of people.

Yes. It's amazing all the international condemnation that is being reported, isn't it.

They are not so much condemning Abhisit publicly, but they definitely not sympathising with his tactics. What decent humang being would ?

They are not saying anything except to find a peaceful resolution. No government will come out with support of any armed crackdown. It would be political suicide. The fact that they aren't condemning it says more, IMO.

Abhisit tried to find a peaceful solution with many compromises, but the red shirts weren't interested in peace. There is enough evidence of armed (M16s, grenades) resistence by the red shirts. Abhisit had no choice, unless he was to submit to the unreasonable demands of an armed mob.

Most international observers and governments (privatly) support the idea of elections and/or negotiations instead of the governements trigger happy rampage, which has clearly done nothing but but fuel on the fire.

[sgtpeppers]

Erratum - Abhisit has presided over one of the biggest massacres in THailand for 2 decades.

Really? then what was this:

An estimated 2,500 people were killed during a three-month crackdown on drugs by Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2003....one of a half-dozen panels belatedly investigating the killings has reported that as many as 1,400 of those victims were killed and labeled drug suspects despite having no link to drugs.

More here: http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/512/th...ved_panel_finds

And the strange thing is, all those people who condemned Thaksin for the extrajudicial killings under his leadership, are the same people who are firmly throwing their support behind Abhisit for the extrajudicial killings under his leadership.

Can anyone spell H Y P O C R I T E ?

Wow, so then you are saying that you firmly support Thaksin for his extrajudicial killings?

Paid by Robert Amsterdam by chance?

You anti-thaksins are so predictable.

No I dont support extrajudicial killings by Thaksin or Abhisit, or anyone else for that matter.

Are you on Abhisits payroll ? and do you see how pathetic those types of arguements are ?

[dttk0009]

'We do not negotiate with terrorists'.

Sort out your own ranks and members first, then come back peacefully and democratically. Burning everything down if you don't get everything exactly how you planned it is not a fair, democratic way to go about running your political party.

To do it right he need to continue to refer to his road map that is not dead and still going forward.

But he needs to add to the map complete investigation of what exactly cause of riot and make sure follow the money and include terrorisms act by everyone including the people who funded , incited, and ordered all these destructions

Yes, sorry, I feel I should clarify what I meant. I think the UDD has become too messy internally to still be a valid political option for Thailand. I absolutely believe the needs of the people upcountry who are concerned should be addressed, now more than ever, and that reconciliation in that regard must occur. But the UDD must be dismantled for their blatant terrorism and militantness. I never thought myself that the party would go that far.

Edited May 21, 2010 by dttk0009

[Robby nz]

Dosnt take long for the reds to try to hijack any serious discussion with stupid arguments.

Its people like sgtpeppers who will make the govts job more difficult still trying to spread red propaganda.

Unlike the reds and the PTP the PM has ideas of how to lead the way forward. Of all the videos now coming to light I have not seen a single one where the reds put forward any policy to improve the lives of the people they said they represent.

Perhaps if any exist some of the red supporters could post a link to them so we can all see just what the reds proposed to do to help the poor.

Every country, society has haves and have nots and it is usually the haves who provide the jobs and taxes to support the have nots.

I agree that the minimum wage is very low in Thailand but there is a fine line between what will attract industry and what will cause it to leave for greener pastures taking the jobs it provided with it.

An example is what was one of the bigest industries in my country ( Fisher and Paykel) that has recently relocated to Thailand because this country was more industry friendly and low wages would have been a big part of that.

There is now no need for a November election so this legal Govt will serve out its term and when the next election comes in 2011 this will be a stronger and better country for all.

[sgtpeppers]

the PM has ideas of how to lead the way forward.

Thanks for the laugh.

Abhisit is useless, he is in reverse gear. FACT: he will never get into first gear.

As for the rest of your pro-goverment propaganda nonsense, no comment.

[gemini81]

the PM has ideas of how to lead the way forward.

Thanks for the laugh.

Abhisit is useless, he is in reverse gear. FACT: he will never get into first gear.

As for the rest of your pro-goverment propaganda nonsense, no comment.

quite the opposite. name another place that would have had fewer casualties during a city under siege? After nearly being hit by gunfire and bombs from redneck thugs, I am lucky and fortunate for the soldiers to come.

You would be singing a different tune if you witnessed what the red shirts were doing in person. get over it, the red shirts are a lost cause.

[nikster]

Unless the elite establish a democratic system that not only includes a system of representational govt but also an independent legal system, a military that is answerable to the country and an uncorrupt police force, the country will continue on this cycle of dissent and repression.

Free press, freedom of expression, an independent judiciary and executive, the rule of the law. All things Thailand needs and doesn't have vs. a real democracy. Corruption is at the core of everything, or maybe the symptom of the lack of these things.

An uncorrupt executive (police) would be a huge step forward. Unfortunately it's very hard to see how to get to that from where we currently are.

Without it, the police are just thugs, laws are not upheld and therefore worthless, and Democracy is impossible. There may be elections that are free - but what's that worth when, due to the absence of law enforcement, there are a million ways to buy votes. Buy votes directly, buy them indirectly by buying off the pu yais, buy them by simply purchasing the winning politicians or even whole political parties - endless possibilities... of course once in power you'll get this money back with large scale corruption schemes so it makes perfect business sense.

[whybother]

You anti-thaksins are so predictable.

No I dont support extrajudicial killings by Thaksin or Abhisit, or anyone else for that matter.

Are you on Abhisits payroll ? and do you see how pathetic those types of arguements are ?

I think sgtpeppers has Dead Parrot syndrome.

[A_Traveller]

Thoughts on a way forward.

This is an outline of, what I believe would be a workable strategy for Thailand [the whole country] to move forward. Might I ask that members here do me the courtesy of at least reading the entire, hopefully no too long, post before hitting reply. TIA

1. Confirm election date for late 2011

2. Offer to create an alliance with the opposition for the balance of the parliament [e.g. politics as unusual]

3. Bring to the forefront programmes focused on alleviating rural and urban poor situation

4. Establish a Royal Commission to investigate the Red Shirt incidents [ideally taking in the previous Songkhran incidents [2009]

5. Confirm that government funds will not be used for private rebuilding

6. Move, with all party consent to depoliticise the local authority infrastructure

7. As a function of 6 establish electable positions [similar to mayoral candidates and elected Governorships]

8. All parties to agree that the above 'democratisation' programme would form a fundamental tenant of their election manifesto

Rationales

An election now would be horrifically divisive, and though some will no doubt argue that it would create a more representative administration, I would point out that all that would really happen is that the more bellicose candidates and position would benefit, leaving a legacy of mistrust and probably even more violence in the future. In other words, short term gain v long term loss.

By offering an alliance [coalition is probably not realistic given the febrile atmosphere] with a focus on, dare I say it, openness, and forward planning for all with a given set of frameworks, including an election date set now for 2011 [allowing sufficient time for the requisite legislation] the existing parliamentarians of all shades of persuasion can realistically argue to their constituents that they are 'putting the country first' over private ambition.

The existing government has been putting into place a series of associative programmes designed at alleviating core concerns facing the 'poor' [sidebar: It continues to amaze me how these programmes are so badly presented and explained. They, admittedly not flashy nor instant palliatives, but they are critical steps in building better opportunities for all Thai citizens. In my view the present administration desperately needs effective communications management. However, it must be said that using the existing politicised bureaucracy so to do is a serious issue.]

The Royal Commission should be tasked with examining the events and looking at their underlying causes. A preliminary report should be in place prior to the election. I think many here, might already have a view as to the recommendations but I'll not dwell upon them here. It should be noted that such a Commission, taking evidence under oath in open session could be a healthy cathartic channel as well.

Whilst I suspect the lawyers would argue that the state has a responsibility to ensue safety and security of property it would seem to me to be a politically wise move to visibly remove government funds from the rebuilding of private property. It removes the risk of being seen as supportive of the rich over the poor [e.g how many schools, roads etc. could be built with those funds?]

Number 6 is for me the most critical part. Right now, in many cases the local bureaucracy is so enmeshed with specific politically motivated actors [the so called Big Men'] that any government is to one degree or another a hostage to these individuals actions. By forcing a break, with all party support, there is a chance that this can be at least reduced. With as proposed elections for specific infrastructure roles the platform exists for a greater degree of democratisation but I'm under no illusion that this would be instant, but it would be a start away form the toxic environment that presently exists.

It is critical that this programme be put in place over this parliament and the next, and that whomsoever holds the position of PM and government that they have committed to the electorate that these reforms will go through. Naturally parties would still campaign vigorously for their manifestos but this action would remain inviolate.

There are other areas, such as education reform [e.g. creation of scholarships awarded by an academic panel, a review of application of checks and balances, policing, structure of the security apparatus] which should form part of the programmes but I'm not trying [you will be pleased to read] to create an entire policy manifesto here, and ultimately I'd rather concentrate on the foundational steps herein.

I'm sure that some will view this as unworkable, and you may be right, but I don't think it is infeasible with a modicum of good will within the political establishment.

I hope this acts as a catalyst [not literally since I'd welcome improvements] for reasoned discussion about how Thailand may go forward.

Regards

PS Yes I know I'm ignoring the elephant in the room, Thaksin, but if such a programme was to be put in place he would be placed in a quandary, support the process, or be increasingly seen as a barrier to progress.

/edit from <--> form sigh//

Edited May 21, 2010 by A_Traveller

[caf]

Much of what you write sounds good in democratic theory and from a western viewpoint and mindset. Thailand and Thais don't have that mindset. You can't make an omelette without eggs. And the eggs will not be made available.

[xminator]

Another High-So that completly misses the point. Thaksins popularity is not only because of "free handhouts". For his supporters he also represent someone from the "outside" that challenged the elite on equal terms. He represents a hope for them. That is something Abhisit will NEVER be able to achieve.

So until the Nation and government actually understand what they are dealing with, good luck on digging that hole deeper.

[A_Traveller]

@caf. Thanks for that. I'm reminded of a conversation in '97 with an individual involved in the writing of the Constitution where I noted that there was an inherent risk in centralising power [effectively to the PM] and received the traditional "You don't understand Thailand response". I replied maybe not, but I do know something about human nature. To be fair '97 was designed to reduce the instability caused by the fractious coalitions of the mid-'90s but as in all things, one often ends up planning for the past not the future.

Regards

PS I'm always amused by the point that the 'peoples constitution' forbade the vast majority of Thai from haveing the opportunity to serve as a MP [the tertiary education requirement] which was removed on the '06 version.

Edited May 21, 2010 by A_Traveller

[gemini81]

Another High-So that completly misses the point. Thaksins popularity is not only because of "free handhouts". For his supporters he also represent someone from the "outside" that challenged the elite on equal terms. He represents a hope for them. That is something Abhisit will NEVER be able to achieve.

So until the Nation and government actually understand what they are dealing with, good luck on digging that hole deeper.

wrong. they're duped by a weasel. do your research and look at all the programs he has set into place to help them, actually more than thaksin-because he doesn't enable them to take loans that bite off more than they can chew leaving them in debt.

he's not responsible for giving them endless hand outs and a free ride any more than any other country should go into debt over the self oppressed and the lazy. sounds like a famliar issue: they want welfare for doing nothing. or if they want equality of all classes, then thats a reborn Khmer Rouge ideology.

[way2muchcoffee]

If Abhisit wants to extend an olive branch, he can start by pledging again to hold November elections.

I agree that elections should be held as soon as possible. However several things must be accomplished first.

1) The constitution needs to be amended with all parties participating in the amendment process. This is necessary so that the election will be perceived as legitimate by all parties. The amendments should be passed in parliament and then vetted by the public through a referendum.

2) The banned TRT and PPP politicians should be unbanned in conjunction with the constitutional rewrites. This cannot include Thaksin as he has been found guilty of widespread corruption while in office. This 'political amnesty' would also extend to the Democrat party. The dissolution of parties was an experiment that failed, with disastrous consequences for the country.

3) There can be no further violence from redshirts or their organizers. The state of emergency in various provinces needs to be canceled as soon as possible.

4) The PAD airport takeover cases need to be expedited with fair and just rulings.

5) All politicians must be able to campaign freely in every region in the country without fear of harassment or violence.

When these things have been achieved then parliament should be dissolved and elections held. If all of society truly want a reconciliation and work together to achieve it then this shouldn't take more than about six months.

[nickupton]

PM - Abhisit has just presided over the biggest massacre in Thailand for 2 decades.

Really? Then what was this:

The Tak Bai incident is an event that occurred on October 25, 2004 in Tak Bai, Thailand, which resulted in at least 85 deaths.

Six local men were arrested. A demonstration was organized to demand their release and the police called in army reinforcements. After some demonstrators threw rocks and attempted to storm the police station, security forces used tear gas and gunfire in response.

Hundreds of local people, mostly young men, were arrested. They had their shirts taken off, bound with their hands tied behind their backs, and made to lie face down on the ground. Video footage shows soldiers kicking and beating those already bound and helplessly lying on the ground.

Later that afternoon, those arrested were thrown by soldiers into trucks to be taken to an army camp in the next province of Pattani. The prisoners were stacked five or six deep in the trucks, and by the time the trucks reached their destination three hours later, many had suffocated to death.

Reports claim that 7 died as a result of gunshot wounds. The rest are believed to have died either from suffocation or beatings.

Shortly after the incident, PM Thaksin Shinawatra said the men died "because they were already weak from fasting during the month of Ramadan.

More here: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ASA39/014/2004

Thank you for correcting that pathetic lie.

[way2muchcoffee]

PM - Abhisit has just presided over the biggest massacre in Thailand for 2 decades.

Historically in Thailand, the military always reply to demonstrations/opposition with violence.

"Restoring" the nation is not what it is about - there is nothing to restore but a lopsided situation that will return to the same old cycle

The issues that concern the Redshirts are long-term and affect a majority of the Thai population who do not receive either a fair share in the nation's wealth or proper democratic representation.

Unless the elite establish a democratic system that not only includes a system of representational govt but also an independent legal system, a military that is answerable to the country and an uncorrupt police force, the country will continue on this cycle of dissent and repression.

Thailand is NOT a third world country - it is actually quite WEALTHY - it just doesn't distribute this wealth - which is a recipe for disaster.

A agree with all of your points. A good start would be to double the minimum wage and then address the problems in the Royal Thai Police. This second goal will be very difficult.

[Thai at Heart]

Abisith's model is... Thaksin.

He wants to be the Thai strong man. As he's not loved by the population, the only solution he has is to use strength.

He has no intention to discuss with anyone.

Considering Abhisit went through probably one of the best high school educations in the world and then polished it off with PPE at Oxford, I think he has a few more role models in mind than Thaksin.

[KhunB]

Thoughts on a way forward.

This is an outline of, what I believe would be a workable strategy for Thailand [the whole country] to move forward. Might I ask that members here do me the courtesy of at least reading the entire, hopefully no too long, post before hitting reply. TIA

1. Confirm election date for late 2011

2. Offer to create an alliance with the opposition for the balance of the parliament [e.g. politics as unusual]

3. Bring to the forefront programmes focused on alleviating rural and urban poor situation

4. Establish a Royal Commission to investigate the Red Shirt incidents [ideally taking in the previous Songkhran incidents [2009]

5. Confirm that government funds will not be used for private rebuilding

6. Move, with all party consent to depoliticise the local authority infrastructure

7. As a function of 6 establish electable positions [similar to mayoral candidates and elected Governorships]

8. All parties to agree that the above 'democratisation' programme would form a fundamental tenant of their election manifesto

Rationales

An election now would be horrifically divisive, and though some will no doubt argue that it would create a more representative administration, I would point out that all that would really happen is that the more bellicose candidates and position would benefit, leaving a legacy of mistrust and probably even more violence in the future. In other words, short term gain v long term loss.

By offering an alliance [coalition is probably not realistic given the febrile atmosphere] with a focus on, dare I say it, openness, and forward planning for all with a given set of frameworks, including an election date set now for 2011 [allowing sufficient time for the requisite legislation] the existing parliamentarians of all shades of persuasion can realistically argue to their constituents that they are 'putting the country first' over private ambition.

The existing government has been putting into place a series of associative programmes designed at alleviating core concerns facing the 'poor' [sidebar: It continues to amaze me how these programmes are so badly presented and explained. They, admittedly not flashy nor instant palliatives, but they are critical steps in building better opportunities for all Thai citizens. In my view the present administration desperately needs effective communications management. However, it must be said that using the existing politicised bureaucracy so to do is a serious issue.]

The Royal Commission should be tasked with examining the events and looking at their underlying causes. A preliminary report should be in place prior to the election. I think many here, might already have a view as to the recommendations but I'll not dwell upon them here. It should be noted that such a Commission, taking evidence under oath in open session could be a healthy cathartic channel as well.

Whilst I suspect the lawyers would argue that the state has a responsibility to ensue safety and security of property it would seem to me to be a politically wise move to visibly remove government funds from the rebuilding of private property. It removes the risk of being seen as supportive of the rich over the poor [e.g how many schools, roads etc. could be built with those funds?]

Number 6 is for me the most critical part. Right now, in many cases the local bureaucracy is so enmeshed with specific politically motivated actors [the so called Big Men'] that any government is to one degree or another a hostage to these individuals actions. By forcing a break, with all party support, there is a chance that this can be at least reduced. With as proposed elections for specific infrastructure roles the platform exists for a greater degree of democratisation but I'm under no illusion that this would be instant, but it would be a start away form the toxic environment that presently exists.

It is critical that this programme be put in place over this parliament and the next, and that whomsoever holds the position of PM and government that they have committed to the electorate that these reforms will go through. Naturally parties would still campaign vigorously for their manifestos but this action would remain inviolate.

There are other areas, such as education reform [e.g. creation of scholarships awarded by an academic panel, a review of application of checks and balances, policing, structure of the security apparatus] which should form part of the programmes but I'm not trying [you will be pleased to read] to create an entire policy manifesto here, and ultimately I'd rather concentrate on the foundational steps herein.

I'm sure that some will view this as unworkable, and you may be right, but I don't think it is infeasible with a modicum of good will within the political establishment.

I hope this acts as a catalyst [not literally since I'd welcome improvements] for reasoned discussion about how Thailand may go forward.

Regards

PS Yes I know I'm ignoring the elephant in the room, Thaksin, but if such a programme was to be put in place he would be placed in a quandary, support the process, or be increasingly seen as a barrier to progress.

/edit from <--> form sigh//

It's good to read a thoughtful piece. Nicely written too.

I am slightly puzzled by the opinion in one of the Dailys' today saying that Thailand shouldn't follow a 'Western' model of democracy. The basic tenet of the article is that there should be equal opportunity for all. Isn't that what countries in the so called 'Western' world strive to offer. Where's the difference?

What am I missing?

[wester]

Imagine you return to your home and see a soldier with an AK47 pointed at your head standing in your doorway.....now exactly who "ran off" and left others to clean up the pieces?

[nickupton]

Thoughts on a way forward.

This is an outline of, what I believe would be a workable strategy for Thailand [the whole country] to move forward. Might I ask that members here do me the courtesy of at least reading the entire, hopefully no too long, post before hitting reply. TIA

1. Confirm election date for late 2011

2. Offer to create an alliance with the opposition for the balance of the parliament [e.g. politics as unusual]

3. Bring to the forefront programmes focused on alleviating rural and urban poor situation

4. Establish a Royal Commission to investigate the Red Shirt incidents [ideally taking in the previous Songkhran incidents [2009]

5. Confirm that government funds will not be used for private rebuilding

6. Move, with all party consent to depoliticise the local authority infrastructure

7. As a function of 6 establish electable positions [similar to mayoral candidates and elected Governorships]

8. All parties to agree that the above 'democratisation' programme would form a fundamental tenant of their election manifesto

Rationales

An election now would be horrifically divisive, and though some will no doubt argue that it would create a more representative administration, I would point out that all that would really happen is that the more bellicose candidates and position would benefit, leaving a legacy of mistrust and probably even more violence in the future. In other words, short term gain v long term loss.

By offering an alliance [coalition is probably not realistic given the febrile atmosphere] with a focus on, dare I say it, openness, and forward planning for all with a given set of frameworks, including an election date set now for 2011 [allowing sufficient time for the requisite legislation] the existing parliamentarians of all shades of persuasion can realistically argue to their constituents that they are 'putting the country first' over private ambition.

The existing government has been putting into place a series of associative programmes designed at alleviating core concerns facing the 'poor' [sidebar: It continues to amaze me how these programmes are so badly presented and explained. They, admittedly not flashy nor instant palliatives, but they are critical steps in building better opportunities for all Thai citizens. In my view the present administration desperately needs effective communications management. However, it must be said that using the existing politicised bureaucracy so to do is a serious issue.]

The Royal Commission should be tasked with examining the events and looking at their underlying causes. A preliminary report should be in place prior to the election. I think many here, might already have a view as to the recommendations but I'll not dwell upon them here. It should be noted that such a Commission, taking evidence under oath in open session could be a healthy cathartic channel as well.

Whilst I suspect the lawyers would argue that the state has a responsibility to ensue safety and security of property it would seem to me to be a politically wise move to visibly remove government funds from the rebuilding of private property. It removes the risk of being seen as supportive of the rich over the poor [e.g how many schools, roads etc. could be built with those funds?]

Number 6 is for me the most critical part. Right now, in many cases the local bureaucracy is so enmeshed with specific politically motivated actors [the so called Big Men'] that any government is to one degree or another a hostage to these individuals actions. By forcing a break, with all party support, there is a chance that this can be at least reduced. With as proposed elections for specific infrastructure roles the platform exists for a greater degree of democratisation but I'm under no illusion that this would be instant, but it would be a start away form the toxic environment that presently exists.

It is critical that this programme be put in place over this parliament and the next, and that whomsoever holds the position of PM and government that they have committed to the electorate that these reforms will go through. Naturally parties would still campaign vigorously for their manifestos but this action would remain inviolate.

There are other areas, such as education reform [e.g. creation of scholarships awarded by an academic panel, a review of application of checks and balances, policing, structure of the security apparatus] which should form part of the programmes but I'm not trying [you will be pleased to read] to create an entire policy manifesto here, and ultimately I'd rather concentrate on the foundational steps herein.

I'm sure that some will view this as unworkable, and you may be right, but I don't think it is infeasible with a modicum of good will within the political establishment.

I hope this acts as a catalyst [not literally since I'd welcome improvements] for reasoned discussion about how Thailand may go forward.

Regards

PS Yes I know I'm ignoring the elephant in the room, Thaksin, but if such a programme was to be put in place he would be placed in a quandary, support the process, or be increasingly seen as a barrier to progress.

/edit from <--> form sigh//

These are all good ideas. Not sure I agree with all of them but they are constructive and a good set of ideas to be discussed.

However, I am not sure if there is a real desire to discuss ideas within the redshirt leadership or PT party, they seem to have an attitude of "give us what we want or else". However, a national government/alliance of all parties would give all parties a chance to engage in real ideas and show that they do care about the whole population and not just the parts of the country that vote for them.

With most of the redshirt leadership in custody and likely to be so for a long time there is a power vacuum in the red camp. Who will end up leading them now? If it is someone like Arisman I don't believe it will be possible to sit down and discuss, politely an outcome that will benifit everyone and further conflict will be inevitable. Perhaps a quick release of Veera, who seems to be far less confrontational and ready to talk and compromise?

[shrekroma]

Thailand is NOT a third world country - it is actually quite WEALTHY - it just doesn't distribute this wealth - which is a recipe for disaster.

very well said.

Best comment I have heard in years.

[caf]

Thoughts on a way forward.

This is an outline of, what I believe would be a workable strategy for Thailand [the whole country] to move forward. Might I ask that members here do me the courtesy of at least reading the entire, hopefully no too long, post before hitting reply. TIA

1. Confirm election date for late 2011

2. Offer to create an alliance with the opposition for the balance of the parliament [e.g. politics as unusual]

3. Bring to the forefront programmes focused on alleviating rural and urban poor situation

4. Establish a Royal Commission to investigate the Red Shirt incidents [ideally taking in the previous Songkhran incidents [2009]

5. Confirm that government funds will not be used for private rebuilding

6. Move, with all party consent to depoliticise the local authority infrastructure

7. As a function of 6 establish electable positions [similar to mayoral candidates and elected Governorships]

8. All parties to agree that the above 'democratisation' programme would form a fundamental tenant of their election manifesto

Rationales

An election now would be horrifically divisive, and though some will no doubt argue that it would create a more representative administration, I would point out that all that would really happen is that the more bellicose candidates and position would benefit, leaving a legacy of mistrust and probably even more violence in the future. In other words, short term gain v long term loss.

By offering an alliance [coalition is probably not realistic given the febrile atmosphere] with a focus on, dare I say it, openness, and forward planning for all with a given set of frameworks, including an election date set now for 2011 [allowing sufficient time for the requisite legislation] the existing parliamentarians of all shades of persuasion can realistically argue to their constituents that they are 'putting the country first' over private ambition.

The existing government has been putting into place a series of associative programmes designed at alleviating core concerns facing the 'poor' [sidebar: It continues to amaze me how these programmes are so badly presented and explained. They, admittedly not flashy nor instant palliatives, but they are critical steps in building better opportunities for all Thai citizens. In my view the present administration desperately needs effective communications management. However, it must be said that using the existing politicised bureaucracy so to do is a serious issue.]

The Royal Commission should be tasked with examining the events and looking at their underlying causes. A preliminary report should be in place prior to the election. I think many here, might already have a view as to the recommendations but I'll not dwell upon them here. It should be noted that such a Commission, taking evidence under oath in open session could be a healthy cathartic channel as well.

Whilst I suspect the lawyers would argue that the state has a responsibility to ensue safety and security of property it would seem to me to be a politically wise move to visibly remove government funds from the rebuilding of private property. It removes the risk of being seen as supportive of the rich over the poor [e.g how many schools, roads etc. could be built with those funds?]

Number 6 is for me the most critical part. Right now, in many cases the local bureaucracy is so enmeshed with specific politically motivated actors [the so called Big Men'] that any government is to one degree or another a hostage to these individuals actions. By forcing a break, with all party support, there is a chance that this can be at least reduced. With as proposed elections for specific infrastructure roles the platform exists for a greater degree of democratisation but I'm under no illusion that this would be instant, but it would be a start away form the toxic environment that presently exists.

It is critical that this programme be put in place over this parliament and the next, and that whomsoever holds the position of PM and government that they have committed to the electorate that these reforms will go through. Naturally parties would still campaign vigorously for their manifestos but this action would remain inviolate.

There are other areas, such as education reform [e.g. creation of scholarships awarded by an academic panel, a review of application of checks and balances, policing, structure of the security apparatus] which should form part of the programmes but I'm not trying [you will be pleased to read] to create an entire policy manifesto here, and ultimately I'd rather concentrate on the foundational steps herein.

I'm sure that some will view this as unworkable, and you may be right, but I don't think it is infeasible with a modicum of good will within the political establishment.

I hope this acts as a catalyst [not literally since I'd welcome improvements] for reasoned discussion about how Thailand may go forward.

Regards

PS Yes I know I'm ignoring the elephant in the room, Thaksin, but if such a programme was to be put in place he would be placed in a quandary, support the process, or be increasingly seen as a barrier to progress.

/edit from <--> form sigh//

These are all good ideas. Not sure I agree with all of them but they are constructive and a good set of ideas to be discussed.

However, I am not sure if there is a real desire to discuss ideas within the redshirt leadership or PT party, they seem to have an attitude of "give us what we want or else". However, a national government/alliance of all parties would give all parties a chance to engage in real ideas and show that they do care about the whole population and not just the parts of the country that vote for them.

With most of the redshirt leadership in custody and likely to be so for a long time there is a power vacuum in the red camp. Who will end up leading them now? If it is someone like Arisman I don't believe it will be possible to sit down and discuss, politely an outcome that will benifit everyone and further conflict will be inevitable. Perhaps a quick release of Veera, who seems to be far less confrontational and ready to talk and compromise?

Forget the redshirts and thaksin. the bangkok elite will do it their way. they always have. these western ideas are not relevant. they are not in listening mode because they do not need to be.

i know one of these families, they own amongst other things a very big restaurant in bangkok, apart from the disgust at the way they treat their staff, their attitude to the basic rights of their fellow thais is deplorable. They dont want democracy. They are content with what they have now. That is what needs to change here.

[IMA_FARANG]

Oh my goodness, a reasonably intelligent and thoughtful article from The Nation nespaper.

I didn't think it was possible. Okay, I'll drop the sarcastic comments.

Anyhow the two lines I particularly like are these:

Yes, Thaksin may have put money and consumer goods in their hands and made sppeeches that made them feel good about themselves. But he didn't create any sustainable wealth, nor did he enhance their capacity to produce.

I'll just state my opinion that it is not only something Thaksin did, but it is a fault of the economic system in Thailand (and not only Thailand I might add). The economic system in Thailand is based on a Western/Farang Capitalist model for develped countries. It is a "Top Down" model, in which money and capital is injected into the system from above, and in theory it then "flows down" into all economic levels, including all social classes in it's benefits. This "top down"model may be appropriate to developed countries in which strict class and social inequalities do not exist...but it is inappropriate for a society like Thailand (or other developing countries) were class/social differences do exist.

To cut through all the crap...and to get to the point before this post gets to long...the second line in bold is the key to the development of Thailand and other developing countries.

To create a economic system that benefits the people from the "bottom up" and not the "top down", to create sustainable wealth and enhance their capacity to produce sounds to me like what the Thai people and Thailand needs.

And that's why Tourisim is a false idol, with results much like giving more alchohol to a drunk. Thailand needs industries that provide real jobs, not bargirls, bellhops and maids, or peddlers selling trinkets to tourists.

But, enough said.

No one's going to listen to me anyhow...I don't have any degrees in economics. So what do I know.

Edited May 21, 2010 by IMA_FARANG

[iciparis]

Abhisit has no support internationally at all.

This goverment is not qualified to deal with the real grievances, they havent made any progress with reconcilliation (actually they did the opposite) so what makes anyone think they can heal the country?

One thing is for sure, the governemtn propaganda machine sure has brainwashed a lot of people.

Examples please, no made up accusations plse

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This guy makes a boat-load of sense, IMHO:

http://twitter.com/khunpleum (Nattakorn Devakula)

He's a TV commentator and seems to have some political aspirations of his own. I Reversed the order of recent Twitter messages so it reads properly:

---------

CRES is now blocking several Facebook/Twitter pages of politicians non-aligned with Democrats. Security operation or mainly opportunistic politicians? This is not Iran but it's feeling like it. Wake up and be fair Abhisit. I know there's a better side in you. Don't let yourself be used by the system. You are co-opted by the regime. Wake up and be fair.

Regardless of whether Thaksin is evil or not, or whether he was the mastermind behind the fire and everything else (if he is he must pay dearly), this nation is governed under an apparatus disguised as a semi-authoritarian democracy--a judiocracy of a very anti-populist kind.

I'm fully expecting Abhisit to finish the full term and no miracles from the courts. No unity government, none of that sort. Powers that be want to make it really clear as to who is the bad guy. They have certainly accomplished that and so no need for a unity government.

Peau Thai has to regroup big time and re-strategize in order to win the Dec. 2011 general elections. Will not be easy because by that time Bhumjaitai will have loaded themselves with plenty of financial ammunitions for campaigning. Democrat as governing party will go into campaign very strong labeling the opposition as supporters of the terrorist cause and neglectful of lese majeste violations.

My realist view is that as long as Thaksin backs PeauThai, it will not be allowed to govern the country. So unless Thaksin quits politics completely, we'll see a Bhumjaitai and Democrat together as a coalition. In order to not see Abhisit as PM, there must be a non-Thaksin party that opposes the Democrats. The existence of Thaksin is an asset and is a major advantage to the Dem. To beat the Dem, Thaksin must quit politics completely. It's not difficult to beat Abhisit in nation-wide election but the problem is that if you stand oppose him you immediately get labeled as a Thaksinite or a Red or a Commie, worse a Terrorist.

Edited May 21, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[A_Traveller]

seems to have some political aspirations of his own

Glad to see Winnie is as always on the ball. The gentleman stood for Governor of Bangkok.

He's also a great example of trading on a family name.

Regards

Edited May 21, 2010 by A_Traveller

[hammered]

This guy makes a boat-load of sense, IMHO:

http://twitter.com/khunpleum (Nattakorn Devakula)

He's a TV commentator and seems to have some political aspirations of his own. I Reversed the order of recent Twitter messages so it reads properly:

---------

CRES is now blocking several Facebook/Twitter pages of politicians non-aligned with Democrats. Security operation or mainly opportunistic politicians? This is not Iran but it's feeling like it. Wake up and be fair Abhisit. I know there's a better side in you. Don't let yourself be used by the system. You are co-opted by the regime. Wake up and be fair.

Regardless of whether Thaksin is evil or not, or whether he was the mastermind behind the fire and everything else (if he is he must pay dearly), this nation is governed under an apparatus disguised as a semi-authoritarian democracy--a judiocracy of a very anti-populist kind.

I'm fully expecting Abhisit to finish the full term and no miracles from the courts. No unity government, none of that sort. Powers that be want to make it really clear as to who is the bad guy. They have certainly accomplished that and so no need for a unity government.

Peau Thai has to regroup big time and re-strategize in order to win the Dec. 2011 general elections. Will not be easy because by that time Bhumjaitai will have loaded themselves with plenty of financial ammunitions for campaigning. Democrat as governing party will go into campaign very strong labeling the opposition as supporters of the terrorist cause and neglectful of lese majeste violations.

My realist view is that as long as Thaksin backs PeauThai, it will not be allowed to govern the country. So unless Thaksin quits politics completely, we'll see a Bhumjaitai and Democrat together as a coalition. In order to not see Abhisit as PM, there must be a non-Thaksin party that opposes the Democrats. The existence of Thaksin is an asset and is a major advantage to the Dem. To beat the Dem, Thaksin must quit politics completely. It's not difficult to beat Abhisit in nation-wide election but the problem is that if you stand oppose him you immediately get labeled as a Thaksinite or a Red or a Commie, worse a Terrorist.

Old Pleum is a red shirt TV presenter

The other evening what he wrote about the arson implying it wasnt done by reds had to be heavily backtracked on the next morning in the face of hard evidence.

Anyway he isnt a neutral and doesnt propose neutral solutions

On topic there is a mixed feeling you can find around of do something to help the poor, crush the reds totally, help the poor in areas that will hurt PTP electorally, dont give the reds anything. Something will happen but my guess will be a rake of pro-poor things as per the roadmap and a lot more security. An election will come, and it wont be soon, when the coalition allies are sure they will win. They will this time be backed by humongous amounts of money. The pro-poor policies will not face bad PR or disruptiuon by local PTP administration and there will be an all out attempt to rip PTP apart by every means possible including buying MPs in the same way Thaksin did and no doubt the financial measures taken against some will have remifications.

In short the government backed by huge money will attempt to give a lot to the poor and let it be kjnown it is from them and at the same time use every means possible to break up PTP. They only need to hold their seats to be electroally succesful. If thet make gains in the lower north and Newin's area they will be even better placed. Right now nobody is looking at the electoral maths but it will likely be an attempot to role PTP (even if they survive their links to the arson) back to the upper north, upper Isaan and a handful of PTP mafia controlled central provinces. We may also see the advent of new parties especially if the dems go down.

It is going to be interesting

[RobinHolmes]

At least 35 unarmed protesters have been killed. The dead include two medics who were wearing white medical uniforms with visible red crosses, shot on 15 and 16 May; and a 17-year-old boy, shot on 15 May. Maj. Gen. Khattiya Sawatdiphon (known as "Seh Daeng"), a military advisor for the protesters, was struck by a sniper's bullet on 14 May and died on 17 May. In addition, another soldier has been killed.

Over 200 people have been injured, including several Thai and foreign journalists, and a 10-year-old boy.

"The government cannot allow soldiers to essentially shoot at anyone within an area it wishes to control," said Zawacki.

I'm not sure if the truth is easily accessed in Thailand but thankfully it is in the rest of the world.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates...orce-2010-05-18

[way2muchcoffee]

At least 35 unarmed protesters have been killed. The dead include two medics who were wearing white medical uniforms with visible red crosses, shot on 15 and 16 May; and a 17-year-old boy, shot on 15 May. Maj. Gen. Khattiya Sawatdiphon (known as "Seh Daeng"), a military advisor for the protesters, was struck by a sniper's bullet on 14 May and died on 17 May. In addition, another soldier has been killed.

Over 200 people have been injured, including several Thai and foreign journalists, and a 10-year-old boy.

"The government cannot allow soldiers to essentially shoot at anyone within an area it wishes to control," said Zawacki.

I'm not sure if the truth is easily accessed in Thailand but thankfully it is in the rest of the world.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates...orce-2010-05-18

For AI to know this they must have been eye witnesses to each of those 35 deaths. They would have to know exactly who was killed, how, by whom, and why. This is information they do not have and yet they still make their fallacious report. AI is being very irresponsible in it's condemnation. It is reporting as fact things that are mere speculation at best, and rumor mongering at worst.