Thai Nationality Application

[KCPhuket]

The US allows dual citizenship...they don't like to advertise that fact...Thailand allows dual citizenship, also.

[frankthetank]

PATTAYAMICK has gone a bit quiet!!

[DickFarang]

QUOTE (Mario2008 @ 2010-06-06 08:41:56) With people having 2 different nationalities, you have to make the distinction between having 2 nationalities by way of law and having 2 nationalities because you chose to get an extra nationality. A lot of countries accept having 2 nationalities by way of law, but want you to renounce your other nationality if you want chose to become a citizen of their country.

Thailand doesn't seem to matter the situation where you have two nationalities by way of law. But seems to want you to decline your old nationality if you want to become a Thai citizen. The law is not clear on this point, but it seems they now want you to sign a statement that you intend to renounce your old nationlity when applying for Thai nationality.

The US has no problem with having dual nationality.

edit:

See Thailand Forum

abut renouncing your old nationality.

I'm a new visitor to Thailand since meeting my girlfriend so I'm no expert particularly with regards to longer term issues like this but from what I've read the UK and probably the EU as well recognise dual citizenship. I would not like to give that up. I don't know how difficult it is for a Thai to get a visa to other countries apart from my own experience of my gf getting a visitor visa for the UK which wouldn't allow her entry to the EU as a whole. I've always been made very welcome when I've been with my gf in Bangkok where they're used to farangs or out in the country in Isaan but I don't know if this would be the same if I wasn't with a Thai (I was stopped by the police 3 times in 2 days but never fined and made very welcome). I think that after living in the country for some time it would feel good to be treated in a way that reflects your commitment as a resident of Thailand.

Even though I've only visited twice I do intend that I will move there to be with my gf at some stage. One visit roughly every 6 months is no way to carry on a relationship although partners of military personnel in some countries such as my own have similar problems albeit with longer than 2 weeks together between tours of duty. I feel that it's the administration of the country that makes you feel unwelcome rather than the people themselves. I feel the restriction on owning land is the one thing I would most wish to see changed as it's the most basic need when living somewhere if you don't want to be paying rent but then I'm a homeowner in the UK so that may be the reason.

Anyway good luck to you especially with the singing. I know the UK national anthem (not all the verses) but I never sing so even that would be difficult for me and I suspect many people born here wouldn't know the words. Many can't get our flag up the right way and many don't know there is a right way.

This has just made me think of something which could be a new thread. Why do Thais not think the Union flag or Union Jack is the flag of England not the United Kingdom or Great Britain. I've even seen this mistake on a poster in a restaurant. Mind you I couldn't explain the concept of the United Kingdom anyway.

As a Belgian I only knew the Union Jack until I visited a number of websites in Thailand and realised that the Union Jack is actually a mix of the English flag and the Scottish flag.

[Arkady]

<!--quoteo(post=3669830:date=2010-06-06 13:54:19:name=DickFarang)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DickFarang @ 2010-06-06 13:54:19) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3669830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody mentions it here, but I guess that (at least in priciple) you will have to renounce (not "revoke" as a Bangkok-based-English-language-newspaper-I-cannot-name-here used to write several times in an article "Thaksin won't revoke Thai nationality") your original nationality when you get Thai citizenship.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I know people that have two passports, one Thai and one from a farang country.

It seems unlikely that you have to "renounce" your original nationality here in Thailand.

Their might be problems in the other end though. For example, I don't know if the US allow you to also be a citizen in another country.

A US Supreme Court ruling in, I think, 1983 made it patently clear that it was perfectly legal for US citizens to have another nationality. The only restriction is that they must always enter the US on their US passports. Some European countries prohibit dual nationality unless born with it, e.g. Germany, Norway, Holland, although I am not sure it is completely clear cut in all cases. I have heard that Germany will allow another nationality if you can give them a convincing reason, i.e. needing another citizenship to facilitate business.

[Mario2008]

The netherlands for instance doesn't allow you to opt for another nationality. If you become a national of another country, you automatically lose your Dutch nationality. Only under certain circumstances will you not lose your Dutch nationality, for instance when you opt for the nationality of your spouse.

[aidenai]

Some European countries prohibit dual nationality unless born with it, e.g. Germany, Norway, Holland, although I am not sure it is completely clear cut in all cases.

Below are the rules for Dutch citizens.

A person who acquired another citizenship before 1 April 2003 automatically lost Dutch citizenship.

From 1 April 2003, loss of Dutch citizenship upon naturalisation in another country is still automatic unless one of the following exemptions applies:

- the person is born in the country of the other nationality and has a principal residence there at the time of acquisition of that nationality.

- if before turning 18, the person has had a principal residence in the country of the other nationality for an uninterrupted period of five years;

- if you are married to a person who possesses the nationality you wish to acquire (a spouse who is deceased does not count).

[kimamey]

QUOTE (Mario2008 @ 2010-06-06 08:41:56) With people having 2 different nationalities, you have to make the distinction between having 2 nationalities by way of law and having 2 nationalities because you chose to get an extra nationality. A lot of countries accept having 2 nationalities by way of law, but want you to renounce your other nationality if you want chose to become a citizen of their country.

Thailand doesn't seem to matter the situation where you have two nationalities by way of law. But seems to want you to decline your old nationality if you want to become a Thai citizen. The law is not clear on this point, but it seems they now want you to sign a statement that you intend to renounce your old nationlity when applying for Thai nationality.

The US has no problem with having dual nationality.

edit:

See Thailand Forum

abut renouncing your old nationality.

I'm a new visitor to Thailand since meeting my girlfriend so I'm no expert particularly with regards to longer term issues like this but from what I've read the UK and probably the EU as well recognise dual citizenship. I would not like to give that up. I don't know how difficult it is for a Thai to get a visa to other countries apart from my own experience of my gf getting a visitor visa for the UK which wouldn't allow her entry to the EU as a whole. I've always been made very welcome when I've been with my gf in Bangkok where they're used to farangs or out in the country in Isaan but I don't know if this would be the same if I wasn't with a Thai (I was stopped by the police 3 times in 2 days but never fined and made very welcome). I think that after living in the country for some time it would feel good to be treated in a way that reflects your commitment as a resident of Thailand.

Even though I've only visited twice I do intend that I will move there to be with my gf at some stage. One visit roughly every 6 months is no way to carry on a relationship although partners of military personnel in some countries such as my own have similar problems albeit with longer than 2 weeks together between tours of duty. I feel that it's the administration of the country that makes you feel unwelcome rather than the people themselves. I feel the restriction on owning land is the one thing I would most wish to see changed as it's the most basic need when living somewhere if you don't want to be paying rent but then I'm a homeowner in the UK so that may be the reason.

Anyway good luck to you especially with the singing. I know the UK national anthem (not all the verses) but I never sing so even that would be difficult for me and I suspect many people born here wouldn't know the words. Many can't get our flag up the right way and many don't know there is a right way.

This has just made me think of something which could be a new thread. Why do Thais not think the Union flag or Union Jack is the flag of England not the United Kingdom or Great Britain. I've even seen this mistake on a poster in a restaurant. Mind you I couldn't explain the concept of the United Kingdom anyway.

As a Belgian I only knew the Union Jack until I visited a number of websites in Thailand and realised that the Union Jack is actually a mix of the English flag and the Scottish flag.

Don't forget the Irish. That's the red diagonal cross. And there's a right and wrong way up as it isn't symmetrical.

Sorry you can all carry on with the real point of this thread now.

[THAIJAMES]

I went inquire about citizenship in Chiang Mai about 2 weeks ago, they had received over 100 applications in the last 5 years, but according to the officer in charge, not one application had been approved and they are all waiting for action from the ministry of Interior.

Is the situation the same in Bangkok?

[Arkady]

I went inquire about citizenship in Chiang Mai about 2 weeks ago, they had received over 100 applications in the last 5 years, but according to the officer in charge, not one application had been approved and they are all waiting for action from the ministry of Interior.

Is the situation the same in Bangkok?

I was informed by Special Branch in Bangkok that about 10 applications were approved last year which has been about average for the last few years. I was recently shown a freshly printed naturalization certificate as an example of what I would one day get, if I made a successful application. So at least one must have been approved this year. I assume the 10 referred to were applicants from Bangkok, not the whole country, as Special Branch at Police National HQ only handles applications from Bangkok.

[THAIJAMES]

I went inquire about citizenship in Chiang Mai about 2 weeks ago, they had received over 100 applications in the last 5 years, but according to the officer in charge, not one application had been approved and they are all waiting for action from the ministry of Interior.

Is the situation the same in Bangkok?

I was informed by Special Branch in Bangkok that about 10 applications were approved last year which has been about average for the last few years. I was recently shown a freshly printed naturalization certificate as an example of what I would one day get, if I made a successful application. So at least one must have been approved this year. I assume the 10 referred to were applicants from Bangkok, not the whole country, as Special Branch at Police National HQ only handles applications from Bangkok.

10 persons for bangkok, compared to about 150,000-200,000 new citizens in the USA each year, that has to say something!

[aidenai]

Arkady, do you happen to remember the first name on the certificate? Was it Thai or English?

10 persons for bangkok, compared to about 150,000-200,000 new citizens in the USA each year, that has to say something!

That doesn't say a thing to me THAIJAMES. Different countries, different populations and different policies.

[Arkady]

Arkady, do you happen to remember the first name on the certificate? Was it Thai or English?

10 persons for bangkok, compared to about 150,000-200,000 new citizens in the USA each year, that has to say something!

That doesn't say a thing to me THAIJAMES. Different countries, different populations and different policies.

I can't remember the name and wouldn't disclose it here, if I could, but I believe it was Korean.

Thailand is certainly not a country of immigration like the US or many European countries that depend on immigration to contribute a proportion of their GDP growth. It can still squeeze out productivity gains and consequent growth above global average by moving workers from inefficient agriculture into manufacturing and service industries. However, it is now dependent on over a million migrant labourers to do jobs that Thais are no longer unwilling to do. So it does have something in common with the West, although this is not such a key factor in the economy as it is for the US and I can't see the migrant labourers getting Thai citizenship any time soon.

Naturalization has in fact never been been a major route to Thai citizenship. When there was no restriction on immigration and the Thai authorities allowed in vast quantities of Chinese migrant workers, most of them only got citizenship in the second generation through being born in Thailand. Until December 1971 every one born within the Kingdom was automatically Thai.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Arkady

[Arkady]

Would suggest PR is sufficient especially if you are renouncing your birth names from your parents. I would never do that out of simple respect. And as already pointed out you will limit freedom of travel anywhere with a Thai Passport. Can't really see any real advantage of going past PR. Tum Jai Khun. Good luck anyway. <img src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="huh.gif" />

The objection over birth names is a non-reason as there has not be4en a requirement to take a Thai name to become a naturalized citizen for some years now. You still have to choose a Thai name but you only use it after naturalization, if you want to.

Sticking with PR is, I agree, a pretty good option for those who are lucky enough to have it. However, things are less clear cut for some one with a Thai wife, who wants security of residence in Thailand, trying to decide whether to apply for PR or citizenship, since no PR applications are known to have been approved since 2006.

[GarryP]

The objection over birth names is a non-reason as there has not be4en a requirement to take a Thai name to become a naturalized citizen for some years now. You still have to choose a Thai name but you only use it after naturalization, if you want to.

Sticking with PR is, I agree, a pretty good option for those who are lucky enough to have it. However, things are less clear cut for some one with a Thai wife, who wants security of residence in Thailand, trying to decide whether to apply for PR or citizenship, since no PR applications are known to have been approved since 2006.

It would be funny if the name issue were enforced in my case. My son has an English first name and surname but is a Thai citizen. So you would have a luk kreung with a foreign father who had a Thai name. Seems ridiculous.

Your last point is very valid in my case. I have not applied for PR yet but intend doing so, possibly next year. My wife and son have no intention of leaving Thailand and as such I definitely want security of residence as I do not wish to be separated from my family. Your comment seems to infer, however, that going for citizenship does not first require a PR. I do not think that that is the case, but if it is, it would seem to make sense for me to skip the PR application.

[aidenai]

Your comment seems to infer, however, that going for citizenship does not first require a PR. I do not think that that is the case, but if it is, it would seem to make sense for me to skip the PR application.

Arkady has made several posts that PR isn't required anymore when applying for Thai Citizenship. Having PR might help acquiring points though. Please search a bit for his posts.

I can confirm this as a fact because I've applied for Thai Citizenship without having the PR. My application is approved by Police Headquarters and is somewhere on somebody's desk at the Interior Ministry.

[pattayamick]

PATTAYAMICK has gone a bit quiet!!

Quiet?

No, I asked a simple question which was answered.

Thank you

[aidenai]

Quiet?

No, I asked a simple question which was answered.

Thank you

.....................and you like to ask but don't like to answer.

Thank you.

[Heng]

Yeah, 'welcome' mat sales are way down here.

[Arkady]

The objection over birth names is a non-reason as there has not be4en a requirement to take a Thai name to become a naturalized citizen for some years now. You still have to choose a Thai name but you only use it after naturalization, if you want to.

Sticking with PR is, I agree, a pretty good option for those who are lucky enough to have it. However, things are less clear cut for some one with a Thai wife, who wants security of residence in Thailand, trying to decide whether to apply for PR or citizenship, since no PR applications are known to have been approved since 2006.

It would be funny if the name issue were enforced in my case. My son has an English first name and surname but is a Thai citizen. So you would have a luk kreung with a foreign father who had a Thai name. Seems ridiculous.

Your last point is very valid in my case. I have not applied for PR yet but intend doing so, possibly next year. My wife and son have no intention of leaving Thailand and as such I definitely want security of residence as I do not wish to be separated from my family. Your comment seems to infer, however, that going for citizenship does not first require a PR. I do not think that that is the case, but if it is, it would seem to make sense for me to skip the PR application.

I have a friend who is a luk kreung and is in exactly that position. His father became a naturalized Thai after he was born in the days when you had to take a Thai name. Therefore the son who was Thai from birth has the farang surname but the father who is 100% farang has a Thai surname. Both seem quite happy with their surnames.

As Aidenai has confirmed through his own experience PR is no longer a requirement for Thai citizenship for men with Thai wives due to the amendments in the 2008 Nationality Act which were designed to redress the balance between foreign men and women with Thai spouses. You are eligible to apply, if you have been married for three years or one year, if you have a child together, assuming you can get at least 50 points. A number of guys without PR have already applied and the first half dozen or so have even passed the interview with the committee for citizenship at the Interior Ministry and await approval from the minister. At least the amendments can keep the genial folk at Special Branch naturalization section in work which would otherwise be threatened by the unfathomable moratorium on PR approvals cutting off the pipeline of qualified PRs. Doesn't seem to be a good deal for the government though, since the fees for PR are much more lucrative, even with the 50% discount given to those with Thai spouses.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Arkady

[GarryP]

That is nice to know. Aidenai kindly sent me the link to the other thread and I have downloaded all the guidelines etc. and will be seriously looking into this. Need to wait until we have our new house though so we can get the family on our own Tabien Bahn in Bangkok. Both the son and wife are on a house registration in Ubol even though we have not lived there. I seriously need to simplify things.

That evidence of charitable donations is a bit sticky. While I have given much more than 5k over the years, I never once kept any of the receipts, even though they are tax deductible. I will have to start making some more donations.

Also the only documentation to show I have been in Thailand continuously for 18 years or so is my passport and work permit (I have been here much longer than that but it was interrupted with border runs for the most part). Perhaps a visit to the Special Branch is in order to see if that would be sufficient.

At the moment I need things to get a bit more settled at home, but that will give me time to really study the issues.

[My Friend Same]

You are my idol, Mick. I want to try for thai citizenship. I'm married to a thai now for 5 months and I lived here for 8 years before that on tourist visas. How can I do it? possible? I dont speak any thai except simple words

[Arkady]

That is nice to know. Aidenai kindly sent me the link to the other thread and I have downloaded all the guidelines etc. and will be seriously looking into this. Need to wait until we have our new house though so we can get the family on our own Tabien Bahn in Bangkok. Both the son and wife are on a house registration in Ubol even though we have not lived there. I seriously need to simplify things.

That evidence of charitable donations is a bit sticky. While I have given much more than 5k over the years, I never once kept any of the receipts, even though they are tax deductible. I will have to start making some more donations.

Also the only documentation to show I have been in Thailand continuously for 18 years or so is my passport and work permit (I have been here much longer than that but it was interrupted with border runs for the most part). Perhaps a visit to the Special Branch is in order to see if that would be sufficient.

At the moment I need things to get a bit more settled at home, but that will give me time to really study the issues.

You must also get yourself on the tabien baan, or on a yellow one, if the district office refuses to put you on the blue one you will get for your family with the new house. I am not sure they will bother to verify your 18 years in Thailand, since you are exempted from the 5 years' residence requirement under the 2008 Act, and it would be a pointless hassle for SB. However, you must be resident when you apply and a tabien baan is the only acceptable proof of that. For charitable donations I would suggest at least B5k a year. Bit of a long shot but maybe you can approach charities you donated to in the past to ask for copies of your missing receipts.

[Arkady]

You are my idol, Mick. I want to try for thai citizenship. I'm married to a thai now for 5 months and I lived here for 8 years before that on tourist visas. How can I do it? possible? I dont speak any thai except simple words

You need to be married for 3 years (only 1 if you have a child together). You also need to have a profession in Thailand with a salary of at least B40k per month, if married to a Thai (but B100k for maximum points) and 3 complete calendar years' of income tax receipts from your employment notarised by The Revenue Dept. According to the 2008 Nationality Act you will be exempted from the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language. However, without a reasonable knowledge of Thai you will score very poorly in the points assessment tests and will not be able to handle the interviews at Special Branch or the Interior Ministry without an interpreter. That, in the unlikely event you managed to score the necessary 50 points at Special Branch with neglible Thai, would probably mark you down not unreasonably as unsuitable for Thai citizenship at the Interior Ministry. Since you need to wait up to 3 years anyway to build up the time after marriage and employment history (assuming you now have a job with a work permit), if you are seriously interested, I would use the time to work hard on your Thai (reading and writing as well as spoken), get registered on a tabien baan, start making donations to registered Thai charities and keep the receipts and read up carefully on the Nationality Act and the Interior Ministry guidelines for applications.

[GarryP]

Thanks Arkady. So basically my 18 years of annual extensions at Suan Plu (now Chaengwattana) count for nothing. Oh well never mind. Following your suggestions, it looks like I will have to wait until 2012 or 2013 (before December of 2013 anyway, otherwise I will lose some points from moving to a different age group). So far, this is what I will do. Start making donations as soon as possible for aging purposes. When we transfer title to the new house and get the Blue Tabian Baan, I will also apply for a yellow tabian baan. Once I have that in my hand I can move forward. However, I want to leave quite a number of months from getting the yellow book, to submitting my application. That period will also give me the opportunity to put all the other documents together.

However, before doing any of the above, I need to make sure I can get the requisite 50 points. I think I should be okay. According to the points system you clarified on another thread, even without PR and a personality, I should still qualify.

[Arkady]

I know farangs without PR who have got themselves into the blue tabian baan of houses owned by Thai wives. It is not illegal and the Registration of Persons Act of 2008 obliges district offices to register all foreigners living in Thailand with temporary visas as well as PRs. Of course it depends on the district office and most them are far too lazy to inform themselves of any regulations to do with foreigners and just rely on their own out-of-date knowledge and prejudices. I have been asked at a Bkk district office how I managed to get a blue book even as a PR because the head of the registration dept with 15 years in the job (so he said) claimed that blue books were only for Thai citizens or Chinese permanent residents, while he believed that farangs were only entitled to yellow books (as if Thai laws explicitly discriminate between foreigners on grounds of race!). My understanding is that yellow books can only be issued to non-PR foreigners as "head of household" but that since 2008 they can be on some one else's blue book as a member of the household. A yellow book will do the job but a blue one seems somehow better.

[aidenai]

My understanding is that yellow books can only be issued to non-PR foreigners as "head of household" but that since 2008 they can be on some one else's blue book as a member of the household. A yellow book will do the job but a blue one seems somehow better.

It's always funny.

Years ago I've been given a yellow book as member of a Thai household upcountry. Because of my Thai citizenship application, I've recently changed it to Bangkok and also there I'm a member of a Thai household.