American To Be Extradited For Unlawful Flight To Avoid Prosecution

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

the mother couldn't have been withholding visitation from him & in fact seems to have been quite accommodating considering he abducted the girl whilst he was supposed to be taking her to Disneyland. so how the f do some of you claim this is a reaction to a bitter custody or that she is getting her pound of flesh. if she was being so nasty to him he would have had zero visitation or at the very least, supervised & not freely able to take the child to Disneyland alone.

He planned this vindictive act well in advance, forging signatures, applying for the child's passport & evidently arranging it all well enough to be able to live in a country far away for a year.

if my husband took my son to another country told him I was dead & tried to keep him from me I would do everything in my power to keep him away from the child for the rest of his life. what happened in this case was sick, wrong & spiteful. to the child as well as the mother.

Desperately sad point of view

[jdinasia]

A man runs with his kid - not knowing what else to do.

The criminal 1984 style US gov. engineer a 10 year sentence for fraud.

Disgusting.

Time for an American Revolution

A man kidnaps his child.

Flees the country.

Gets caught.

Pleas guilty to avoid the charge of kidnapping. (this is assumed based upon the max sentence on a guilty plea!)

No engineering of a sentence needed ... he pled guilty.

Another case where if it were the woman, I doubt you would say the same thing!

[jdinasia]

I know about visitation orders, I have been in that situation myself. Not all cut and dry as may appear. Sometimes the mother will make the situation almost impossible for the father of the child. Such as having her abusive parents present, other relatives or friends. I've been there and know how distressing this can be for the father.

where in any of the reports is it mentioned he was not given his rightful visitations. the mother was letting him take the girl to Disney. hardly the actions of someone making access difficult imo.

amazing how many people are trying to justify this crime, against the laws of the US & against the child.

I don't always agree with you .... but we are clearly on the same page on this one!

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

A man runs with his kid - not knowing what else to do.

The criminal 1984 style US gov. engineer a 10 year sentence for fraud.

Disgusting.

Time for an American Revolution

A man kidnaps his child.

Flees the country.

Gets caught.

Pleas guilty to avoid the charge of kidnapping. (this is assumed based upon the max sentence on a guilty plea!)

No engineering of a sentence needed ... he pled guilty.

Another case where if it were the woman, I doubt you would say the same thing!

I guess you are a man with no children. If you do have them and think this way then as a man with children - I cannot even comprehend where you're coming from

[Boo]

Desperately sad point of view

Why? because I am not applauding the actions of a criminal who lied to a child & took her away from the life & people she knew, breaking the law & messing up not on his own life but his ex wife & kids too? yeah, ok!!

[jdinasia]

A man runs with his kid - not knowing what else to do.

The criminal 1984 style US gov. engineer a 10 year sentence for fraud.

Disgusting.

Time for an American Revolution

A man kidnaps his child.

Flees the country.

Gets caught.

Pleas guilty to avoid the charge of kidnapping. (this is assumed based upon the max sentence on a guilty plea!)

No engineering of a sentence needed ... he pled guilty.

Another case where if it were the woman, I doubt you would say the same thing!

I guess you are a man with no children. If you do have them and think this way then as a man with children - I cannot even comprehend where you're coming from

I am coming from a place that doesn't mind pointing out the hypocrisy you present.

The guy was taking his kid to Disney .... he wasn't being denied rights to spend time with his daughter. He kidnapped her and fled the USA. He told her that her mother was Dead! BTW ... biologically I do have a daughter.

edit --- again I am all for a father's rights. In this case it obviously wasn't the issue.

Edited April 30, 2011 by jdinasia

[DP25]

I do not consider this man as a criminal, not by one iota and know whose side I am on, which is my prerogative and how I view the matter.

He's a criminal just for the passport fraud, regardless of what the mother did or did not do

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

A man runs with his kid - not knowing what else to do.

The criminal 1984 style US gov. engineer a 10 year sentence for fraud.

Disgusting.

Time for an American Revolution

A man kidnaps his child.

Flees the country.

Gets caught.

Pleas guilty to avoid the charge of kidnapping. (this is assumed based upon the max sentence on a guilty plea!)

No engineering of a sentence needed ... he pled guilty.

Another case where if it were the woman, I doubt you would say the same thing!

I guess you are a man with no children. If you do have them and think this way then as a man with children - I cannot even comprehend where you're coming from

I am coming from a place that doesn't mind pointing out the hypocrisy you present.

The guy was taking his kid to Disney .... he wasn't being denied rights to spend time with his daughter. He kidnapped her and fled the USA. He told her that her mother was Dead! BTW ... biologically I do have a daughter.

edit --- again I am all for a father's rights. In this case it obviously wasn't the issue.

Ok - I understand.

Lets leave it like this.

I love my children.

I would (as any parent) protect them with my life.

This is normal.

What the guy did WAS WRONG. I assume he did it in desperation.

The point I am making, is why.... oh why oh why, does the US government not see this? Why do they want to put him away for a ten stretch?

I tell you why. Fear, bullying and intimidation --- cos that keeps all the others in line.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Desperately sad point of view

Why? because I am not applauding the actions of a criminal who lied to a child & took her away from the life & people she knew, breaking the law & messing up not on his own life but his ex wife & kids too? yeah, ok!!

Referring to him as a criminal is not really called for. On the other hand, he clearly does deserve some punishment; taking a child away from his mother and causing trauma for the child telling her his mother is dead really deserves a punishment proportional to that offence. I can even see a jail sentence. But 10 years is more than punishment, that's destroying a life. And it means he will not see his daughter grow up, and it means his daughter will be further traumatized. You have heard form a forum member who knew the guy personally, indicating he's a fine person who loves his daughter like every other father. You seem to disregard this and call him a criminal who should be locked up for 10 years, even though you don't know the guy.

You know why I think the punishment was this disproportional to the crime? I think it's because most people in the US, including in the US justice system, have a very skewed and incorrect image of Thailand. So he's getting slammed for unwritten assumptions about endangering the child, "taking her to a third world country where human traficking and the sex trade is rife". That doesn't make it in any kind of official rationale, but I bet it played a part.

I remain open to other theories on why this warrants a 10 year punishment, similar to some violent crimes. Go.

Edited April 30, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[jdinasia]

Ok - I understand.

Lets leave it like this.

I love my children.

I would (as any parent) protect them with my life.

This is normal.

What the guy did WAS WRONG. I assume he did it in desperation.

The point I am making, is why.... oh why oh why, does the US government not see this? Why do they want to put him away for a ten stretch?

I tell you why. Fear, bullying and intimidation --- cos that keeps all the others in line.

I have no idea why you blame anyone but the father?

He was taking his kid (alone and unsupervised) to Disney. Why would you assume there was any desperation involved in that?

Instead of convicting the guy on the obvious charge of kidnapping, they let him plead guilty to a FAR lesser charge. 10 years versus 25-life is a great deal considering he is guilty of kidnapping AND the charge he pled guilty to!

[Beetlejuice]

A man runs with his kid - not knowing what else to do.

The criminal 1984 style US gov. engineer a 10 year sentence for fraud.

Disgusting.

Time for an American Revolution

A man kidnaps his child.

Flees the country.

Gets caught.

Pleas guilty to avoid the charge of kidnapping. (this is assumed based upon the max sentence on a guilty plea!)

No engineering of a sentence needed ... he pled guilty.

Another case where if it were the woman, I doubt you would say the same thing!

It makes no difference whether it`s a mother or a father.

Unless you have been in a situation where you have been imposed by law that you can only spend a limited time with your children, then how would you know how it feels or what it`s like?

Views and opinions can change dramatically regarding any situation once a person has experienced something personally.

What I am saying is; that in many Western countries where couples divorce and there are children involved, the courts often look on the mother of the children more favourably. It`s just the way it is.

Anyway, some have their opinions, I have mine, no hard feelings, it`s just a discussion and I'm off to bed now thanking my lucky stars that I'm not in the same predicament as this poor guy.

Amen.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Beetlejuice

[jdinasia]

Referring to him as a criminal is not really called for. On the other hand, he clearly does deserve some punishment; taking a child away from his mother and causing trauma for the child telling her his mother is dead really deserves a punishment proportional to that offence. I can even see a jail sentence. But 10 years is more than punishment, that's destroying a life. And it means he will not see his daughter grow up, and it means his daughter will be further traumatized. You have heard form a forum member who knew the guy personally, indicating he's a fine person who loves his daughter like every other father. You seem to disregard this and call him a criminal who should be locked up for 10 years, even though you don't know the guy.

You know why I think the punishment was this disproportional to the crime? I think it's because most people in the US, including in the US justice system, have a very skewed and incorrect image of Thailand. So he's getting slammed for unwritten assumptions about endangering the child, "taking her to a third world country where human traficking and the sex trade is rife". That doesn't make it in any kind of official rationale, but I bet it played a part.

I remain open to other theories on why this warrants a 10 year punishment, similar to some violent crimes. Go.

Completely unreasonable POV.

This is a FEDERAL crime.

Thailand had nothing to do with it. He pled guilty in what appears to me as an obvious plea bargain. He took 10 years for fraud as opposed to 25 to LIFE for kidnapping.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Completely unreasonable POV.

This is a FEDERAL crime.

Thailand had nothing to do with it. He pled guilty in what appears to me as an obvious plea bargain. He took 10 years for fraud as opposed to 25 to LIFE for kidnapping.

And you find that a reasonable punishment? I've been apalled at your viewpoints before on unrelated topics, but this really takes the cake.

Edited April 30, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[jdinasia]

Completely unreasonable POV.

This is a FEDERAL crime.

Thailand had nothing to do with it. He pled guilty in what appears to me as an obvious plea bargain. He took 10 years for fraud as opposed to 25 to LIFE for kidnapping.

And you find that a reasonable punishment? I've been apalled at your viewpoints before on unrelated topics, but this really takes the cake.

Leaving the personal comments aside ........

He had unfettered access to his child (unsupervised visitation to take her to Disney) and forged documents to flee the USA and then told his daughter that her mother was DEAD. Screwing up her relationships (trust issues) for the rest of her life ..... but you side with someone that ADMITTED his guilt.

[IanForbes]

Without knowing the exact details of his case, it is impossible to make an informed comment on this case. In most states in the US, the cards are so highly stacked against the male in any child custody case that is ieasy to understand why some fathers resort to irrational acts in what they perceive to be an attermpt to save their children from a poor parent. His biggest mistake was violating Federal laws which sometime carry mandatory sentences.

I would agree. But if the situation had been in reverse, with the woman absconding with the child, then the sentence would have been MUCH less... if she was even given a sentence at all. However, the judiciary takes a dim eye to anything that cuts into their power and will impose sentences far in excess to even murder when it happens.

I really feel sorry for the guy and he probably went through hell before he finally snapped and made an unwise decision. In most cases the so called "justice system" is a farce today.

[jdinasia]

Without knowing the exact details of his case, it is impossible to make an informed comment on this case. In most states in the US, the cards are so highly stacked against the male in any child custody case that is ieasy to understand why some fathers resort to irrational acts in what they perceive to be an attermpt to save their children from a poor parent. His biggest mistake was violating Federal laws which sometime carry mandatory sentences.

I would agree. But if the situation had been in reverse, with the woman absconding with the child, then the sentence would have been MUCH less... if she was even given a sentence at all. However, the judiciary takes a dim eye to anything that cuts into their power and will impose sentences far in excess to even murder when it happens.

I really feel sorry for the guy and he probably went through hell before he finally snapped and made an unwise decision. In most cases the so called "justice system" is a farce today.

Sorry Ian, as much as I agree with you on most things .... the BEST any parent (regardless of gender) could have gotten in a Federal court in the USA in the situation described is what the father got when accepting a plea.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Completely unreasonable POV.

This is a FEDERAL crime.

Thailand had nothing to do with it. He pled guilty in what appears to me as an obvious plea bargain. He took 10 years for fraud as opposed to 25 to LIFE for kidnapping.

And you find that a reasonable punishment? I've been apalled at your viewpoints before on unrelated topics, but this really takes the cake.

Leaving the personal comments aside ........

He had unfettered access to his child (unsupervised visitation to take her to Disney) and forged documents to flee the USA and then told his daughter that her mother was DEAD. Screwing up her relationships (trust issues) for the rest of her life ..... but you side with someone that ADMITTED his guilt.

I guess reading is a skill.. Why do you choose to overlook that I state he deserves punishment? Why are you stating that I am siding with him?

Once more: I'm questioning the wisdom of putting him behind bars for 10 years.

Rapists get put away for 10 years and rightly so. (http://rjrnewsonline.com/news/local/bus-conductor-gets-10-yr-sentence-raping-teenage-girl , http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2011/mar/08/man-serve-10-years-raping-8-year-old-ar-892107/ ) This is cruel and unusual punishment. I would say the same thing had it been the mother committing the same offense.

[jdinasia]

]

And you find that a reasonable punishment? I've been apalled at your viewpoints before on unrelated topics, but this really takes the cake.

Leaving the personal comments aside ........

He had unfettered access to his child (unsupervised visitation to take her to Disney) and forged documents to flee the USA and then told his daughter that her mother was DEAD. Screwing up her relationships (trust issues) for the rest of her life ..... but you side with someone that ADMITTED his guilt.

I guess reading is a skill.. Why do you choose to overlook that I state he deserves punishment? Why are you stating that I am siding with him?

Once more: I'm questioning the wisdom of putting him behind bars for 10 years.

Rapists get put away for 10 years and rightly so. (http://rjrnewsonline...ng-teenage-girl , http://www2.dailypro...-old-ar-892107/ ) This is cruel and unusual punishment. I would say the same thing had it been the mother committing the same offense.

Sorry khwai ...... but he isn't a rapist. (A rapist would be sentenced in state court.)

He is a kidnapper who willingly pled to a lesser charge. 10 years is far less than the realistic sentencing for kidnapping. He obviously accepted a plea bargain for the lesser charge. Who are you to say that his decision to not fight a no-win battle on kidnapping was wrong? Nothing cruel or unusual about either the plea-bargain OR the sentence agreed to under the conditions of the plea-bargain.

Using sexual assault (rape) as a basis for your argument is disingenuous, you should be using kidnapping. Nobody has suggested that rape has occurred, but in the US a baby raper would likely not survive the sentence even if it were just 2 years. This is a federal kidnapping case ( not a local custodial interference case) and to diminish the trauma to the child is abhorrent.

edit for typo

second edit ---- why do I say you are defending him?

Referring to him as a criminal is not really called for

Edited April 30, 2011 by jdinasia

[flying]

He was taking his kid (alone and unsupervised) to Disney. Why would you assume there was any desperation involved in that?

I can see all sides...clearly I think

Yes the father broke a law....

Why would anyone assume there was desperation involved?

Simple......visitation rights does not equate to a life with your child.

I do not think folks who have not been in the situation can understand that.

I know you said "biologically I do have a daughter" I do not know how you intend that to sound.

But to me it sounds like you were a donor with no further needs beyond that.

That is not the case for the majority of fathers

Again...Yes the father did a wrongful act... Does the punishment fit the crime? IMHO No

[jdinasia]

He was taking his kid (alone and unsupervised) to Disney. Why would you assume there was any desperation involved in that?

I can see all sides...clearly I think

Yes the father broke a law....

Why would anyone assume there was desperation involved?

Simple......visitation rights does not equate to a life with your child.

I do not think folks who have not been in the situation can understand that.

I know you said "biologically I do have a daughter" I do not know how you intend that to sound.

But to me it sounds like you were a donor with no further needs beyond that.

That is not the case for the majority of fathers

Again...Yes the father did a wrongful act... Does the punishment fit the crime? IMHO No

I have no idea why you blame anyone but the father?

He was taking his kid (alone and unsupervised) to Disney. Why would you assume there was any desperation involved in that?

Instead of convicting the guy on the obvious charge of kidnapping, they let him plead guilty to a FAR lesser charge. 10 years versus 25-life is a great deal considering he is guilty of kidnapping AND the charge he pled guilty to!

You say the father broke "a law" .... not true.

He broke several laws. He CHOSE to plead guilty to a lesser charge than he was obviously guilty of.

You not only diminish his guilt but also overlook the real crimes committed. My personal history (which you make incorrect assumptions about) are not relevant.

[flying]

You say the father broke "a law" .... not true.

He broke several laws. He CHOSE to plead guilty to a lesser charge than he was obviously guilty of.

You not only diminish his guilt but also overlook the real crimes committed. My personal history (which you make incorrect assumptions about) are not relevant.

You need to go back & edit the quotes in your post to not attribute things to me that I did not say

Edited April 30, 2011 by flying

[jdinasia]

No I don't

The quote with your name attached is what you stated.

The quote with no attribution is what I said that you misquoted. You cherry picked from my post ... I quoted my entire post.

edit for typo

Edited April 30, 2011 by jdinasia

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Agreed. He's writing it up as if it's all a fact of nature, and that it being a 'FEDERAL' case is somehow relevant. 10 years is 10 years. 10 years for kidnapping is not unreasonable when it's kidnapping in the actual meaning of the word, i.e. , if you kidnap my daughter then you get 10 years: great. Motive for wanting to be with your own children is clealrly different. We have established that the American 'FEDERAL' government and JDinasia think differently about that.

I'm happy to see most posters have a more reasonable sense of morals and justice. Yes he made a mistake, yes he should be punished. 10 years? Well, that's what the debate is about.

Suppose my wife did the same. Would I be upset and would I wanted her to be brought to justice? YES. Would I be happy if she received 10 years in jail for it? OF COURSE NOT. That's simply not in anyone's interest, and would be cruel and unusual punishment to the mother AND the daughter. We've seen now that the US is perfectly willing to hand it out. We've seen that Boo and JDInAsia agree with it.

Edited May 1, 2011 by sbk
deleted quoted post removed

[flying]

No I don't

The quote with your name attached is what you stated.

The quote with no attribution is what I said that you misquoted. You cherry picked from my post ... I quoted my entire post.

edit for typo

I see......no problem but confusing for other readers since none will know it is actually your quote since no name is assigned to it....up to you

As for your actual post then......

You say the father broke "a law" .... not true.

He broke several laws. He CHOSE to plead guilty to a lesser charge than he was obviously guilty of.

You not only diminish his guilt but also overlook the real crimes committed. My personal history (which you make incorrect assumptions about) are not relevant.

Yes you can be pedantic with the law/laws I think you understood my point...or no?

I never diminished his guilt but instead was addressing your question of...

Why would anyone assume there was desperation involved?

Sorry as I see you cannot understand the response.

As for you personal history not being relevant I think it is.

Your comment that "biologically I do have a daughter"

shows you have no direct experience where as others who are fathers & not biological donors do.

Again I was stating the reason as to why desperation could have been involved.

It is clear you are coming from a theoretical viewpoint of the law & not the things that could cause a

father OR mother to act in a moment of desperation.

I am not saying it was right just that I can understand how desperation could make someone act desperately.

I am also saying the punishment in no way fits the crime....period.

It is my opinion based on being a father & I might add one who raised his kids from birth to adulthood

even though I was divorced from their mother.

I was a single parent with both physical & legal custody in that case. So it is not like I cannot sympathize with the

mother in this case being discussed.

It does not mean that I cannot also understand that there may have been a desperation that drove the father to do what he did.

Was it the right thing to do? Again NO....Is the punishment over blown? Yes...Consider the sentence for murder as an example.

It is clear what your opinion is & I do not need to hear it yet again.

I just wanted to make mine clear. Hopefully I did...

Good Day

Edited April 30, 2011 by flying

[Daewoo]

I guess I just wanted to throw a few points into this... I am an Aussie, so could be completely wrong about the American Justice System,

I understand that the 10 year sentence was handed down by a federal court judge, who one could assume to be impartial, rather than what me all over the world know to be the very biased Family Court... we can assume the father had at least the opportunity for a free and fair trial...

More than that, from these couple of news reports we can not know...

He might have been a desperate father, trying to save his daughter the only way he knew how, after the Family Court placed HIS children back with a herion addicted mother, with a sucession of dubious boyfirends, who he knew would abuse his daughter... Many cases of that in Australia...

His wife might have a new husband, and family, been planning to move to the other side of the country, so he would never get to see his kids in his court appointed access... (that happened to a mate of mine)...

His wife might have been deliberately manipulating the court system to make accusations against him, quit work to increase his child support liability, and at the same time prevent any access... also happened to a mate of mine...

In those cases, where the family court seems to always act in the best intrest of THE MOTHER, rarely the kids, why shouldn't he ignore the courts and run away with his kids... if he thinks their life would be better with him...

or...

He might be just a prick, offended that his wife walked out on him, wanting to punish her using the weapon he knows most effective... her children to whom she is a devoted mother...

We have two cases in Australia at the moment, one where a father drove his car into a lake and killed his three sons, and one where he threw his 3 year old daughter off a bridge... both just to punish the mother...

Neither Men nor Women can be presummed to have the best interest of the children at heart when it comes to custody battles... The Family Court needs to disregard the parents desires and work for the children... and any parent found to be using children as a weapon should be denied everything...

but again, this guy we can assume had a fair trial in front of an impartial judge... someone who knew all the facts of the cases has decided that 10 years was an approapriate sentence...

Cheers,

Daewoo

[sbk]

Posts have been deleted. If you cannot refrain from personal attacks and find yourself unable to engage in a civil discussion like adults then you will find your posting rights suspended.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^^ Great post by Daewoo. Fully agreed. To stick to my earlier point: EVEN in the 'he's just a prick' scenario, 10 years jail is high. And it could be somewhere in between; a mix of perceived wrongs, real risks AND being a prick. Because no matter what there's no reason to cause trauma to a kid by telling her that her mother is dead.

[Buchholz]

For those that apparently have not read any of the news reports in this thread, his 10 year federal sentence was for forging documents, passport fraud, and unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.

The entire issue of his taking his child in violation of the divorce decree will be addressed later and separately in state court.

He did not receive a 10 year sentence for taking his daughter.

.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[TheLaughingMan]

For those that apparently have not read any of the news reports in this thread, his 10 year federal sentence was for forging documents, passport fraud, and unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.

The entire issue of his taking his child in violation of the divorce decree will be addressed later and separately in state court.

He did not receive a 10 year sentence for taking his daughter.

Exactly, why is everyone talking about 10 years for kidnapping? That is NOT what happened. These are crimes he committed and is being punished for, he IS a criminal. It's unfortunate but in society you DO get punished for breaking laws, that's just the way it works.

[Boo]

It does not mean that I cannot also understand that there may have been a desperation that drove the father to do what he did.

this guy only seemed to be desperate enough to take one of his kids & leave the other behind with the mother who many are speculating so much against. hmmm

(n.b am only quoting flying's post post above to base my post on & not as an attack on his posting)