Most Thai Teachers Fail In Their Own Subjects

[moetownblues]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

Here's a letter for you to read, sorry it has to be said...

John Cleese Letter to America (Notice of Revocation of Independence) - Urban Legends

Richie,

Yes, yes.... I came here for an argument - no you didn't.... and so on... LMAO first time I read that. (I'm one of the 1% of Americans that enjoy a good self-deprecating skit). Billy Connelly also has a good go at us Yanks - equally funny.

Glad you enjoyed it. I know I did..

Dido quite funny and good to see that some can laugh at themselves and not take everything so seriously.

[Garry]

Too true guys; awhile back my son was doing some basic math, which in my opinion was taking him to long to do. I asked why it was taking so long and it turns out it was how his teacher had taught him. I showed him a way faster method, rather than it would seem the antiquated dogma his teacher was instructing to do the very same math. My son said I should be teaching math in school.

I know teaching respect is a big thing (and a good thing) in Thailand towards your parents, the elderly, monks and teachers, but one has to draw the line somewhere when the teacher hasn't got a clue. I said to my wife, how can you respect someone who isn’t competently educating your children.

[IsaanAndy]

As someone has already pointed out, when schools have a NO FAIL policy then it rather defeats the object of learning through test and examination.

[zipmax]

It appears that the only thing of any importance in the Thai education system is having one's paperwork in order- having the student records folders completed. Failing students are routinely passed as it would make the school look bad. I heard that everyone passes in Thailand and now know that it is true. I was chatting with a Thai teacher at flag ceremony the other day and she mentioned that she was proctoring the exams of the incoming M1 students and 25 out of 31 couldn't read. Not read English mind you, but Thai.The students know that they wil not fail any class, so they can do whatever they like in class. Many teachers complain about this but apparently to deaf ears.

[sageisreal]

Aparently all you seem to need is a degree in Thailand to teach

More than 80% of Thais I ask don't know most of there times tables 6x6 7x7 8x8 etc I have had than permenantly etched in my brain since I was about 8

there ?????? . try their

[sageisreal]

People in glass houses..................! I'm in the UK just now and I despair of the standard of English here in ALL spheres of life. It appears that all the rules of grammar are totally forgotten. Split infinitives, using between instead of amongst, or aggravate instead of annoy, the misuse of the appostrophe; the list is endless. Ask a school kid nowadays about general analysis or parsing and you are looked upon as either cursing or talking a foreign language. Also the amount of Americanisms creeping into everyday usage is worrying as everyone knows the Yanks can't spell and their speech philosophy seems to be 'Why say something in two words when ten will do?!' My favourite hate, which is meaningless to boot, being 'At this moment in time' - urgh! What's wrong with - now?

Yes I agree Americans are killing the english language and as I have said if these thai english teachers are being taught by Americans then they may very well fail and no fault of thier own. If an American was to sit an english exam in an english school they to may surely fail because they have been taught American. Just look on your microsoft word program you have a choice between the American language and the english language.

I'm surprised the administrator let this mini sub-thread to stand. The guy (I am Welsh/Canadian) complaining about the Yanks cannot himself spell the word "apostrophe" (I guess he doesn't use Spell Check). As for the "Yes, I agree Americans are killing the english [sic] language.." guy, what an appalling demonstration of how to spika da eeengleesh without a clue.

What is a school Kid ? a kid is a baby Goat ! . try child or children

[PBarnfeather]

My wife is the grandmother of a student who sometimes comes home complaining that he cannot learn a particular subject. She then sits down to help him, sometimes using a bamboo switch (very unthai-like) for emphasis, and guess what--the kid learns rather easily.

[dumball]

Expensive for education in Thailand by incompetent staff with an end result of very little , I posted how well my SIL had done in only two years at an international school , the cost_______________$89.00 for three months . The street children pay $6.00 a month , I know , I payed for several when I first came to Cambodia , they used to bring their books for me to read as I sat at a river-side cafe and pass comment on pronunciation etc , five years later , they stop to have a chat when they see me , they are very proficient in English conversation and understanding . Excuses and finger pointing achieve absolutely zilch no matter what it concerns , action speaks louder than words , get in there and help , many seem to have lots of time on their hands to critisise , this affords little to nothing as regards this thread .

[TheWalkingMan]

An easy win for this, and I am sure that it will never happen, would be for Thailand to utilize the scads of well qualified non-Thai folks scattered around the country. There are retired doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, chemists, accountants and others with time on their hands who would not mind helping out with tutoring various subjects.

TheWalkingMan

[kenallday]

Oh my god. No wonder when I asked peeople in Thailand with 13 years of education

and did not recognise such names as Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, Dalai Lama and

Gandi. Could not point where Europe was or where the USA was. Could not tell me

a single planet in the Universe.

By the way Americans are as bad - dumb as posts most of them, they have almost zero Geography skills and as for History outwith the US - Ha Ha at least the Thais have an excuse for being a bit simple but the Americans really don't.

PS: peeople is not a word and your grammar is shocking, also who the hel_l is Gandi

[IMA_FARANG]

I'm sure this will bring out a lot of the "Thais are dumb" people, but before you get too carried away let me twll you the experience of my friend who ghas a Master's degree in Education and is a teacher who supervises and evaluate teachers in his states public school system in the U.S. (And by public school system I mean it in the U.S. sense, as govenment funded and operated schools, not the U.K. meaning of "public schools".)

He found, to his surprise, that about one-third of his teachers found his qualification tests "too difficult" in the subjects they taught, and they failed his initial teasting. (This was about 25 years ago now).

He also found that mathamatics had the highest failure rate. I don't exactly know which subjects had the highst rates,but I remember he told me mathamatics was the highest initial fail rate.

He believes it was due to his use of real world problems...he used mathamatics to solve hypothetical problems of a mathamatical nature...such as you might find in the real world. He said it was quite a shock to him the first time he saw this.

Because his purpose was to improve the teachers abilities, not pass or fail them, he would give new teachers that test as a "practice" test shortly after they arrived. Then a few months or up to a year later they had another similar test used for teaher evalutaion. They usually did better on the 2nd test, which is what he wanted from them anyhow.

Apparently even good teachers get involved in the mechanics and the drudge work of teaching, and let their subject abilites go down because of the other work they must do.

I'm not saying that is what is happening in Thailand...I'm just telling what my friend (now retired)found was the fact 25 years ago in the U.S.

By the way, I understand that "teacher evaluation testing" is quite a contentious topic in the U.S. with teacher's unions.

Edited June 10, 2010 by IMA_FARANG

[WhisperingJack]

This report is frankly misleading.

The test that the teachers took (OBEC) was not the same kind of test that is taken by the students (O-NET). It's perfectly possible that the test was particularly difficult, even for experienced teachers. The results are meaningless and the journalism shoddy.

Journalists can only be as good as they are taught (shoddy journalism = shoddy teachers). If teachers took the same test as thier teachers they should all get 100%.

The test that they took assesses their ability to teach.

[Pakboong]

I do fully agree that the quality of teachers is a huge problem and needs to be addressed.

However, ones should also consider the environment where teachers work and where students need to study.

Many up-country school as truly 4rd. world quality without windows, with dusty roads just in front of the school, with 40 and more degree celsius temperature, with birds above students heads shi...ing on down to the students.

I know some schools without electricity, therefore there are not fans.

Everything in education must be improved!

1.) The quality of teachers and if they don't develop themselves and fail standard tests they should not be allowed to teach.

2.) The classrooms must have all proper windows and air-con.

It wasn't that long ago that no schools in the world had electricity and education happened. It is not happening here for reasons that have nothing to do with air conditioning.

[gumpanaj]

This report is frankly misleading.

The test that the teachers took (OBEC) was not the same kind of test that is taken by the students (O-NET). It's perfectly possible that the test was particularly difficult, even for experienced teachers. The results are meaningless and the journalism shoddy.

The mirror has two sides.

[chainarong]

this is no real surprise to me at all. i teach, i see, i cry

(Oooh, nice new board format!)

84% failure rate in mathematics! That's, like, almost half!

Thank you for injecting some humour into this rather depressing thread.

It will, unfortunately, take at least a generation to change anything. When students are encouraged to ask questions then there will be changes but not until then. Once those children have gone though the education system and finally become teachers themselves then maybe it will be different. IMHO

Ho hum, we've had equiry ten years back, it was pointed out then that quiet afew Thai students couldn't even read or write Thai,let alone anything else, the education dept blamed TV, so don't hold your breath on groung breaking news my pen rai.

[gumpanaj]

Also see the article in Newsweek: The Destruction of Thailand's Global Brand - Newsweek

"Thailand's scores on the TOEFL exam, the test of English skills for students heading to university, now consistently rank amongthe lowest in Asia"

I agree with your post but, I urge everyone to educate Thai government changing the curriculum as such in order to complete with the 21th century. TOEFL is not an easy subject for the Thais. Remember, Thailand had never been colonized by anyone so, it is no way Thai students will do well with English plus if you go to elementary schools you will see how little the Thais teach English. ( less than 3 hours per week ) English is not an easy language to learn and it takes a person so much time and energy to master. Learning another language is problem for the Thais..so, The Thais need qualify teachers who can read, write and communicate effectively in English. These will apply to TOEFL centers as well. Now it is about time for the Thais to demand the outcome before paying handsome for schools or the TOEFL training placees....

By the way, how many Thais can afford paying 50,000 dollars for studying in America??? ( foreign students ) Now, that why Thais never pay attention to English...... Some Thais say to me that they have fish in the water and rice in the field so they are happy and doing fine. Why do they need others unless they want to own Louis Vutiton or Chanel coutours. My point and I am standing tall.

There will always be some students that find an inner motivation to learn to speak a language through "Class study"... and they will even take the time and spend the energy to find ways to expand their English (or any language) exposure outside of class, and thereby become proficient in communicating.

BUT.. The average Thai student doesn't feel this motivation, nor even see any reason to expend this time and energy which requires so much more than they have to give for their other subjects... and distracts from watching Soap operas, Horror movies or game shows, reading cartoon, "playing" Computer and hanging out at the mall.

This is a societal problem.. until the government wakes up and forces a cultural change in the average Thai's exposure to English... an exposure that is lacking on almost every level... There will never be any real change in how motivated students are to learning. You can't learn to truly communicate in any language strictly from books, or a few hours a week in a classroom... It must be "lived" and made part of daily communicative tasks. Practice is mandatory, and exposure must be ubiquitous.

For a country the purports to be "Tourist Friendly", it is surprising how difficult it is for the average Tourist to find their way around, once they leave the conducted Tour experience.

Try and find a City Bus with the Route/Destination written in English.. or on a bus stop sign. I guess they feel the "Real" Tourists don't take city buses, as they are all too rich to want to mix with Real Thai people and would only take taxis. If they take a bus they must be part of the unwanted "poor" tourist category.. so why try and accommodate them.

The simple step of placing English on Buses would go a long way to show Thais that English is an important communication tool. Then they could have an actual English Broadcast (Free) TV Channel. And an English Newspaper that was available at all Newsstands in all parts of Thailand, not just in selected Tourist areas. And Subtitled Movies rather than dubbed on TV.. and more Western Sit-coms and Drama shows (legal/Medical, etc.) that demonstrated real life situations and exposure to various cultures.. Not a diet of strictly Hi-So Soap operas and slap-stick comedies with arcane laugh tracks.

This would be a small start.. but it would be necessary to sustain the effort over the long-term, no matter the cost or the market resistance. True change never comes easily or with little cost.

CS

Change is good. But it takes time!

[chainarong]

Unless you get outside HELP, pay bigger, much BIGGER wages, improved working conditions, modern equipment and spend lots of USD not BHT, then you are a lot of time wasters, waisting everyone's time , cut your armed services in half, offload the generals,and afew other hangers on, Thailand must come up to 2010 western world standards ,unless this is achived , then education in Thailand will stagnate and steadly become just as worse as a third world eduction system..

Ah, Western world standards....hmmm, let's see...that means: invading other countries at will; bailing out crooked bankers; spending beyond one's means; fixing elections; polluting the world's oceans; and, if you are a British MP, enjoy a fatcat lifestyle at the expense of the taxpayer.

Ah yes and it also means able to read and write Thai, because a lot can't.

[Pakboong]

blind leading the blind

It would be interesting to do the same exercise in other countries. I wonder how many would do any better?

They already do this kind of teacher testing in the USA, it is called the CBEST test and all Public School Teachers are required to pass it to continue teaching. I am an English teacher in Roi-Et Province and the results of this testing is no surprise to me. Based on what I have personally seen, I am surprised that the failure rate was only 80%

I believe that CBEST is a California exam.

[ndw]

I am an English teacher at an Islamic school in Bangkok. I agree with some of the points made here and some I do not. My school, being an Islamic school, might be a bit removed from the average Thai secondary school. But it is still a public school. All of the Thai English teachers I work with are able to speak English, some very well. Some of the Thai English teachers have had the opportunity to travel in the USA and are able to function in an English speaking country.

However, their idea of classroom control and methods of teaching English are pathetic. This is not all the teachers at my school, but many of them. Two of my pet annoyances are teaching English without speaking any English and no one can fail.

As for this exam the teachers have fail, I think it was designed to fail teachers. This way the problems of the education system are brought out into the open. When the government makes big changes in the education system they can point to the results of this exam and say it is a necessity.

[walterego]

The good thing about this is of course that this 'Test' is the first of its kind and despite it's worrying result is a great first for Thailand and its education system. To those who implemented such proactive and prgressive a study.... Hats off! and keep up the good work.

edit- I will certainly advertise this article as much as possible in order to raise awareness. Bab y steps.. baby steps.

Edited June 10, 2010 by walterego

[Bruce1]

One of my former colleague (an Aussie teaching in Thaland) once failed his entire class of uni students, which caused some reactions. They were made to take extra classes and sit the test again.

[Pakboong]

Also see the article in Newsweek: The Destruction of Thailand's Global Brand - Newsweek

"Thailand's scores on the TOEFL exam, the test of English skills for students heading to university, now consistently rank amongthe lowest in Asia"

I agree with your post but, I urge everyone to educate Thai government changing the curriculum as such in order to complete with the 21th century. TOEFL is not an easy subject for the Thais. Remember, Thailand had never been colonized by anyone so, it is no way Thai students will do well with English plus if you go to elementary schools you will see how little the Thais teach English. ( less than 3 hours per week ) English is not an easy language to learn and it takes a person so much time and energy to master. Learning another language is problem for the Thais..so, The Thais need qualify teachers who can read, write and communicate effectively in English. These will apply to TOEFL centers as well. Now it is about time for the Thais to demand the outcome before paying handsome for schools or the TOEFL training placees....

By the way, how many Thais can afford paying 50,000 dollars for studying in America??? ( foreign students ) Now, that why Thais never pay attention to English...... Some Thais say to me that they have fish in the water and rice in the field so they are happy and doing fine. Why do they need others unless they want to own Louis Vutiton or Chanel coutours. My point and I am standing tall.

There will always be some students that find an inner motivation to learn to speak a language through "Class study"... and they will even take the time and spend the energy to find ways to expand their English (or any language) exposure outside of class, and thereby become proficient in communicating.

BUT.. The average Thai student doesn't feel this motivation, nor even see any reason to expend this time and energy which requires so much more than they have to give for their other subjects... and distracts from watching Soap operas, Horror movies or game shows, reading cartoon, "playing" Computer and hanging out at the mall.

This is a societal problem.. until the government wakes up and forces a cultural change in the average Thai's exposure to English... an exposure that is lacking on almost every level... There will never be any real change in how motivated students are to learning. You can't learn to truly communicate in any language strictly from books, or a few hours a week in a classroom... It must be "lived" and made part of daily communicative tasks. Practice is mandatory, and exposure must be ubiquitous.

For a country the purports to be "Tourist Friendly", it is surprising how difficult it is for the average Tourist to find their way around, once they leave the conducted Tour experience.

Try and find a City Bus with the Route/Destination written in English.. or on a bus stop sign. I guess they feel the "Real" Tourists don't take city buses, as they are all too rich to want to mix with Real Thai people and would only take taxis. If they take a bus they must be part of the unwanted "poor" tourist category.. so why try and accommodate them.

The simple step of placing English on Buses would go a long way to show Thais that English is an important communication tool. Then they could have an actual English Broadcast (Free) TV Channel. And an English Newspaper that was available at all Newsstands in all parts of Thailand, not just in selected Tourist areas. And Subtitled Movies rather than dubbed on TV.. and more Western Sit-coms and Drama shows (legal/Medical, etc.) that demonstrated real life situations and exposure to various cultures.. Not a diet of strictly Hi-So Soap operas and slap-stick comedies with arcane laugh tracks.

This would be a small start.. but it would be necessary to sustain the effort over the long-term, no matter the cost or the market resistance. True change never comes easily or with little cost.

CS

Change is good. But it takes time!

All change is not progress.

[BookSanook]

I am not slagging Americans and have nothing personal against them. My niece is married to one, a very well known muscian and producer. What I am saying is that the American version of the English language is different to that of other English speaking countries. This is a known fact. If thai teachers were taught by an American and then tested by an Englishman then they would fail. You have American English and then you have English.

Hmmmm... so, if an Englishman were to teach logic and reasoning to Thais and they were subsequently tested by an American would they fail?

[Teacher's notes deleted.]

Edited June 10, 2010 by BookSanook

[zakk9]

In a country where they teach English as if it was a Thai dialect, using the Thai alphabet which is completely incompatible with English, how can they expect to get anywhere? Even in Vientiane, people generally speak better English than in Bangkok.

There are several examples available of how the education system is used, not as a way to qualify students for future jobs, but as a way to avoid those from "lower" classes advancing within the society. If this isn't changed soon, I'm afraid we'll have a much more radical, and possibly more brutal, "revolution" than what we've seen in Bangkok the last few months. People from upcountry may be uneducated, but they are not stupid, and some of them start to realise that they are being fooled by the Bangkok and Chiang Mai elites, and that includes Thaksin.

[Thai at Heart]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

I am not slagging Americans and have nothing personal against them. My niece is married to one, a very well known muscian and producer. What I am saying is that the American version of the English language is different to that of other English speaking countries. This is a known fact. If thai teachers were taught by an American and then tested by an Englishman then they would fail. You have American English and then you have English.

Moe,

I agree with the fact that American English is quite different than UK English. I'm an American and have difficulty understanding American English (of the younger set I might add) as well as: (most of time) N.E. UK English, Glaswegian, Aberdoonian (sometimes), Australian (seldom) and Kiwi (sometimes). What a lot of Brits fail to remember is that they could go down the road from their home 15 mi. only and understand half of what is being said in a local dialect / infliction. True, is it not?

Accents are part and parcel of any language. However, this has little or no bearing on someone's ability to write or teach the English language correctly. I always find it most ironic, that some of the most correctly spoken people that I meet in Wales; my home country, would claim to have Welsh as their mother tongue.

[Bruce1]

How can you expect teachers who are themselves often poor at listening and speaking in particular to successfully teach listening and speaking?

[Pakboong]

How can you expect teachers who are themselves often poor at listening and speaking in particular to successfully teach listening and speaking?

Didn't Forrest Gump say something similar?

[dumball]

'Bruce1' date='2010-06-10 18:11' timestamp='1276168267' post='3678239']

How can you expect teachers who are themselves often poor at listening and speaking in particular to successfully teach listening and speaking?

The answer is simple , you cannot nor should not , I have a tonal hearing problem , no matter how I tried to speak Thai I could not , words I spoke sounded the same to me as those I had heard , but obviously came out differently , I tried 'Lip reading , but all to no avail . You have a very good point .

[bangon04]

Also see the article in Newsweek: The Destruction of Thailand's Global Brand - Newsweek

"Thailand's scores on the TOEFL exam, the test of English skills for students heading to university, now consistently rank amongthe lowest in Asia"

I agree with your post but, I urge everyone to educate Thai government changing the curriculum as such in order to complete with the 21th century. TOEFL is not an easy subject for the Thais. Remember, Thailand had never been colonized by anyone so, it is no way Thai students will do well with English plus if you go to elementary schools you will see how little the Thais teach English. ( less than 3 hours per week ) English is not an easy language to learn and it takes a person so much time and energy to master. Learning another language is problem for the Thais..so, The Thais need qualify teachers who can read, write and communicate effectively in English. These will apply to TOEFL centers as well. Now it is about time for the Thais to demand the outcome before paying handsome for schools or the TOEFL training placees....

By the way, how many Thais can afford paying 50,000 dollars for studying in America??? ( foreign students ) Now, that why Thais never pay attention to English...... Some Thais say to me that they have fish in the water and rice in the field so they are happy and doing fine. Why do they need others unless they want to own Louis Vutiton or Chanel coutours. My point and I am standing tall.

There will always be some students that find an inner motivation to learn to speak a language through "Class study"... and they will even take the time and spend the energy to find ways to expand their English (or any language) exposure outside of class, and thereby become proficient in communicating.

BUT.. The average Thai student doesn't feel this motivation, nor even see any reason to expend this time and energy which requires so much more than they have to give for their other subjects... and distracts from watching Soap operas, Horror movies or game shows, reading cartoon, "playing" Computer and hanging out at the mall.

This is a societal problem.. until the government wakes up and forces a cultural change in the average Thai's exposure to English... an exposure that is lacking on almost every level... There will never be any real change in how motivated students are to learning. You can't learn to truly communicate in any language strictly from books, or a few hours a week in a classroom... It must be "lived" and made part of daily communicative tasks. Practice is mandatory, and exposure must be ubiquitous.

For a country the purports to be "Tourist Friendly", it is surprising how difficult it is for the average Tourist to find their way around, once they leave the conducted Tour experience.

Try and find a City Bus with the Route/Destination written in English.. or on a bus stop sign. I guess they feel the "Real" Tourists don't take city buses, as they are all too rich to want to mix with Real Thai people and would only take taxis. If they take a bus they must be part of the unwanted "poor" tourist category.. so why try and accommodate them.

The simple step of placing English on Buses would go a long way to show Thais that English is an important communication tool. Then they could have an actual English Broadcast (Free) TV Channel. And an English Newspaper that was available at all Newsstands in all parts of Thailand, not just in selected Tourist areas. And Subtitled Movies rather than dubbed on TV.. and more Western Sit-coms and Drama shows (legal/Medical, etc.) that demonstrated real life situations and exposure to various cultures.. Not a diet of strictly Hi-So Soap operas and slap-stick comedies with arcane laugh tracks.

This would be a small start.. but it would be necessary to sustain the effort over the long-term, no matter the cost or the market resistance. True change never comes easily or with little cost.

CS

These are all valid points. However it might make strategic sense to adapt all of these ideas to the Chinese language, as Thailand could just as easily see its medium to long term future tied to Chinese prosperity, not Anglophone.

[Bruce1]

If Thai TV was less protected and more open to foreign programs it would have a major effect on improving listening skills.