Breaking The Beginner'S Barrier.

[makescents]

I'm a firm believer that the basics of Thai are pretty easy to pick up. I can now:

- Identify all consonants and their classes

- Identify all vowels and whether they are long or short

- Identify tone marks and apply tone rules accordingly

However I feel stuck in a rut. I can't make many sentences past what you would find in a normal phrasebook and so conversation is stale. I also frequently consult online translators when chatting online as it's easy to; do but now not only am I dependent on them, but I am giving people a false impression of my language skills which causes problems later.

I know the answer to my own question is: build vocabulary and study grammar, but if you're an intermediate/skilled Thai speaker I'd like to know what you would do to get out of this.

Edited June 26, 2010 by makescents

[Parvis]

An interesting subject - In any other language I ever learned it essentially took me approx. 6 month to have the feeling of gaining "critical Mass" - where the progress from then on became fast and reinforcing. Not so with Thai - there is just the additional difficulty of learning the script - etc. etc. etc..

I also consider myself an "intermediate speaker". Unlike you - I have not studied all the rules so far. I know some of the rules - but if I cannot recognize the word - the fact that I MAY be able to correctly pronounce it, I find fairly useless. If I do recognize the word - I also know how to pronounce it.

I copy different "high value phrases" on my white board weekly (Thai script only) which I tend to use (and modify) frequently thereafter in my Thai conversations.

My emphasize at present is on comprehension - which I do - by listening to Thai News and increasing my vocabulary with correct pronounciation by using "Thai-language.com". In addition I try to use my "elimentary Thai" whenever possible - interspersed with my remembered "high value phrases".

Therefore to answer your question from my viewpoint - work on your comprehension.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Parvis

[hiero]

I'm not sure about levels, I think my knowledge is a bit like swiss cheese and I know lots of advanced stuff but often can be stumped by the most basic question, I think this was down to just picking things up for a year whilst I lived there.

My teacher says that my accent, pronunciation and vocab is good but the structure is one of my biggest problems, I can communicate the point fine but not 100% correctly, so for example "the shop, I was there yesterday at 2pm, afterwards I had dinner", anyone would understand that but it's not the correct way.

So I am currently 'pattern' studying buy using example sentences and words and then modifying it multiple times e.g:

ถึงแม้ว่า

ผมจะเรียนภาษาไทย ถึงแม้ว่า ภาษาไทยยาก

__________ ถึงแม้ว่า ________________

ผมจะไปที่ตลาด ถึงแม้ว่า ตลาดไกล

ถึงแม้ว่า อาหารคุณฝน ไม่อร่อย ผมก็จะกิน

Also, when I learn new words before I add them to anki I try and create a sentence out of them, like yesterday I learnt the word จริงจัง which is like 'serious about..'

ถ้าเราจริงจังกับการควบคุมอาหาร เราควรจะ...

Edited June 26, 2010 by hiero

[mikenyork]

Pattern drills are excellent ways to get the correct word order. My other advice (given before in other threads) is....be patient with yourself. Realize that the US Military allocates 6 months to train a translator/interpreter in any of the Romance languages, but 12 months for the same task in Thai (and other Asian languages). I studied Spanish as well as Thai and one of the frustrating things for me was that I could make progress at about 10 times (or more) the rate in Spanish that I could in Thai! To use the English I grew up with, I could make more progress accidentally in Spanish than I could on purpose in Thai!!! But that's the way it is and the only thing I know to do is to do what you are doing, but don't get frustrated if it's slower than you wish or even slower than your experience in other languages would predict.

[hiero]

Possible to be ''fluent'' in 12 months? I suppose it's not exactly measurable anyways.

[Tod Daniels]

Sorry this is a long post (my penchant for verbose posts is already well known)

Once you acquire a ‘working’ vocabulary in the thai language, the next most important thing to concentrate on is structure of how thai words go together to form cohesive sentences. While it is a S+V+O type of language, there are more than a few things which can and do trip up native engrish speakers when speaking thai.

Proper word order and/or sentence structure is something which cannot be stressed enough and is often the thing which thais will say makes the difference between what they perceive as a beginning speaker and an intermediate one. Even if your pronunciation is off; if the structure is correct thais can make out what you’re saying far easier then if they have to re-order the words AND try to make out bad pronunciation too. A foreigner can have perfect pronunciation but if they don’t know how the words go together to make clear thai structured sentences they’re still at a beginning level.

I have found that using the pattern of WHEN something happened, WHO it happens to, and WHAT the outcome is, will work in most situations. I can say in engrish “I went to the market yesterday, and it is understood, but in thai simply translating the words into ผมไปตลาดเมื่อวานนี้ will give you a skewed thai construct which thais will understand but probably isn’t right. Starting the sentence with the time marker of WHEN; ‘yesterday‘ gives a much closer approximation to how a thai might say it; เมื่อวานนี้ผมไปตลาด. Granted that is a simplified example and I still probably got it wrong but the theory of “WHEN -to WHO - and WHAT” holds true

One of the most valuable books I have is called;

Thai Reference Grammar, The Structure of Spoken Thai.

It’s written by James Higbie and Snea Thinsan. It costs about 895baht at the various book stores in Bangkok and is very useful in providing thai language structure.

To give an example using the phrase mentioned in a previous post by the poster known as 'hiero'; ถึงแม้ว่า, here’s the excerpt from the book concerning it;

ALTHOUGH / EVEN THOUGH / EVEN IF

The following phrases are used interchangeably for ‘although’, ‘even though’, and ‘even if’. จะ may be included to show that the meaning is future or hypothetical, and ก็ can be placed between the subject and verb of the second clause (or the clause that doesn’t have ‘even though’/even if’) with the meaning of ‘still’.

1. ถึงว่า/แม้ว่า/ถึงแม้ว่า - ถึง and แม้ have different meanings. ถึง means to ‘arrive/reach to’ and here refers to a situation reaching a certain point (‘even if it reaches this point’). แม้ separates out a condition (‘even if this happens’). แต่ may be included as in the fourth example. Don’t confuse แม้ว่า with ไม่ว่า (whether or not).

Examples;

Even if you notify the police, you’ll (probably) never get your camera back.

ถึงคุณจะแจ้งตำรวจคุณก็คงจะไมได้กล้องคืน

Even if he doesn’t go, I’ll go.

แม้ว่าเค้าไม่ไปฉันก็จะไป

Even though she can’t speak thai, she can still have a good time.

แม้เค้าจะพูดไทยไมได้เค้าก็ยังสนุกได้

Even though it’s raining, (but) he still wants to go.

ถึงฝนจะตกแต่เค้าก็ยังอยากจะไป

2. ทั้งที่/ทั้งๆ ที - These phrases are used in the same way as ถึง and แม้.

Examples;

He gave me some money, although he didn’t have much.

เค้าให้เงินผมทั้งๆ ทีเค้าไม่ค่อยมี

Even though it’s the rainy season (but) they’re going to Phuket.

ทั้งที่เป็นหน้าฝนแต่เค้าก็จะไปภูเก็ด

3. ขนาด – Here ‘even though’ is stronger, having the meaning that even if something very strong happens the action will still go through. ขนาด means ‘size’, ‘extent’ or ‘magnitude’ and here means ‘even thought it’s reached the extent that…’.

Example;

Dam is so stubborn. Even if you don’t let her, she’ll go.

ดำเนี่ยดื้อนะ ขนาดคุณไม่ให้เธอไปเธอก็ยังจะไปอีก

I copied this word for word from the book to show you how in depth it is as far as citing usage and giving examples of the words.

It is certainly NOT a book you’re just gonna sit down and read, but as a handy reference guide it’s very useful to see how thai words are used and how they go together correctly.

Hope this helps some, good luck, don’t give up. ..

FWIW: I haven’t broken ANY barriers beginner or otherwise, but I still plug along with it.

Again I apologize for the long post. ..

Edited June 29, 2010 by tod-daniels

[mangkorn]

I agree with Tod. Thai syntax is extremely important, as elusive and maddeningly incomprehensible to farangs as it often seems. Grammar study is vital - by which I do not mean grammatical "terms" nor linguists' mumbo-jumbo. Grammar is the structure of elements of speech; their order and relationship, i.e., syntax. Anyone who suggests that is unimportant is a person who most likely cannot speak proper Thai at anything but a very basic level. If you say "the house big," you may be understood, but you'd be speaking atrocious English. In Thai, structure can be even less forgiving. The incorrect placement (or omission) of directional markers and auxiliary verbs/adverbs will often make it impossible to be understood. The Higbie/Thinsan book is very good, and an exceptional value. There are others, more expensive. But one can also learn a lot about syntax from listening, and tirelessly reading everything, including advertising posters. Also, the best Thai-English dictionaries contain numerous example sentences for the distinct usage of words. A serious student should have and use several dictionaries, both physical and online.

Edited July 1, 2010 by mangkorn

[AjarnPasa]

In my view the two most important things to remember are that language is not learnt in linear stages, and that you *have* to use it to retain it. There is really no such thing as beginner, intermediate and advanced once you move from 'no thai' to 'some thai'. One just gets good at the bits which one uses most frequently. hiero's analogy of swiss cheese is perfect. . There is no substitute for getting out there and speaking and listening to anyone and everyone who you can accost for 5 mins of conversation, even if it's just to say how hot it is today.

Think about how you learnt your first language. You didn't study grammar drills, you didn't analyse the rules of syntax, you listened A LOT, then you started to try to approximate that which you heard, and kind people helped you refine what you said if you made mistakes. And guess what - it took a long time

As adults it should be no different. Yes, we have the advantage of being able to read about the language, to use meta-language to help us understand how another language works, which gives us a leg up when venturing out to try to speak it for ourselves. But the real learning only happens when we embrace that last stage.

I would not worry one iota about your use of phrase books etc. fooling people into thinking you are better than you actually are. It's this constant challenge of being presented with things you don't already know which precipitate your learning and development. However it is important that you ask for and accept correction - some people are very reticent to tell you when you've made a mistake (as Mangkorn says rightly above, you might be understood but still be making errors of syntax etc.) Not minding looking a bit of a prat is all part of it - let your informal tutor know that he or she "ไม่ต้องเกรงใจ" and that you are happy for them to correct you as you make mistakes.

But to get back to my main point - in the language learning world we have a saying: "Use it or lose it". If you don't use the new skills you are learning you'll lose them. My contention is that you should not crowbar yourself into whatever chapter of your Thai learning book or programme you are currently looking at - you should crowbar the learning tools into whatever is interesting, pertinent or pressing for you at any given moment. You can do all the drilling on the future perfect conditional in the world, but if you never use it you'll never remember it (well, some people might but they are rare). Instead, find something that fascinates you whether it's Thai architecture, the world cup, the election in Constituency 6, or the ingredients in Pad Thai, and talk about it, read about it, listen to people talking about it.

If you'll forgive a little self publicity, this is what I do with my blog. I find something that is interesting to me then research it and write about it. In the process my Thai gets better. I hope it helps other people too. Have a look if you like.

Another great resource is 'Learn Thai from a White Guy', who posts videos of real Thai people speaking real Thai about real things. Search for him on You Tube.

Good luck with it.

[makescents]

I own a copy of Thai Reference Grammar and it is indeed an excellent book packed with example usage. I also subscribe to Learn Thai with a White Guy's RSS feed and a few others.

I chat online with Thais, as I am out of the country and don't have access to a native speaker, but even know they I'm a foreigner they still use a lot of slang and alternative spellings.

Then there's the words like ชงัก which came up today, completely stumped me as I can't find a translation anywhere. I also have trouble identifying whether or not a sentence is directed at me. If personal pronouns are omitted it can be impossible for me to know if a statement is aimed at myself.

I've yet to learn "Do you mean me?" as a way of asking for confirmation; so I tend to guess which can lead to frustrating conversation at times.

[bhoydy]

I own a copy of Thai Reference Grammar and it is indeed an excellent book packed with example usage. I also subscribe to Learn Thai with a White Guy's RSS feed and a few others.

I chat online with Thais, as I am out of the country and don't have access to a native speaker, but even know they I'm a foreigner they still use a lot of slang and alternative spellings.

Then there's the words like ชงัก which came up today, completely stumped me as I can't find a translation anywhere. I also have trouble identifying whether or not a sentence is directed at me. If personal pronouns are omitted it can be impossible for me to know if a statement is aimed at myself.

I've yet to learn "Do you mean me?" as a way of asking for confirmation; so I tend to guess which can lead to frustrating conversation at times.

I would think ผมเหรอ would be enough to clarify if something was directed at you or not. That or, ว่าผมเหรอ would work too.

[AjarnPasa]

I own a copy of Thai Reference Grammar and it is indeed an excellent book packed with example usage. I also subscribe to Learn Thai with a White Guy's RSS feed and a few others.

I chat online with Thais, as I am out of the country and don't have access to a native speaker, but even know they I'm a foreigner they still use a lot of slang and alternative spellings.

Then there's the words like ชงัก which came up today, completely stumped me as I can't find a translation anywhere. I also have trouble identifying whether or not a sentence is directed at me. If personal pronouns are omitted it can be impossible for me to know if a statement is aimed at myself.

I've yet to learn "Do you mean me?" as a way of asking for confirmation; so I tend to guess which can lead to frustrating conversation at times.

I would think ผมเหรอ would be enough to clarify if something was directed at you or not. That or, ว่าผมเหรอ would work too.

ชงัก could be ชะงัก which means to stop short/to cease. I guess you've hit on the problem with chat rooms and forums: rapid typing, casual, slangy atmosphere makes for a tricky learning environment. However, taking the glass is half full approach you are learning the real deal - nobody is going to be trying to teach you archaic or overly formal words like ดิฉัน and รับประทาน that no one ever uses but that language books still insist on teaching.

Good luck with your quest - I hope you can find someone to practise with. When I was out of the country I made contact with the Thai Soc at my local uni and visited as many Thai restaurants as I could

BTW พูดถึงผมหรือ means 'are you talking about me' which I have used in the past when an opinion has been sought and I'm not sure if it has been sought from me. Though bhoydy's suggestion would be the first choice for me.

[makescents]

ชงัก could be ชะงัก which means to stop short/to cease. I guess you've hit on the problem with chat rooms and forums: rapid typing, casual, slangy atmosphere makes for a tricky learning environment. However, taking the glass is half full approach you are learning the real deal - nobody is going to be trying to teach you archaic or overly formal words like ดิฉัน and รับประทาน that no one ever uses but that language books still insist on teaching.

Good luck with your quest - I hope you can find someone to practise with. When I was out of the country I made contact with the Thai Soc at my local uni and visited as many Thai restaurants as I could

BTW พูดถึงผมหรือ means 'are you talking about me' which I have used in the past when an opinion has been sought and I'm not sure if it has been sought from me. Though bhoydy's suggestion would be the first choice for me.

That makes sense given the context.

You are right about the chat rooms being fast paced. However my biggest gripe is that even with my elementary Thai, people believe that I am far more proficient than I actually am. I get comments such as เก่งเลย quite frequently although I am anything but.

I've never seen ดิฉัน in a chat room or on facebook. กุ is the pronoun of choice it seems. Although when I use it my ex batters me. I'd rather be quite formal until I adequately determine the situation, I curse a lot in English and it's a habit that I don't want to carry over into Thai.

Edited July 7, 2010 by makescents

[AjarnPasa]

ชงัก could be ชะงัก which means to stop short/to cease. I guess you've hit on the problem with chat rooms and forums: rapid typing, casual, slangy atmosphere makes for a tricky learning environment. However, taking the glass is half full approach you are learning the real deal - nobody is going to be trying to teach you archaic or overly formal words like ดิฉัน and รับประทาน that no one ever uses but that language books still insist on teaching.

Good luck with your quest - I hope you can find someone to practise with. When I was out of the country I made contact with the Thai Soc at my local uni and visited as many Thai restaurants as I could

BTW พูดถึงผมหรือ means 'are you talking about me' which I have used in the past when an opinion has been sought and I'm not sure if it has been sought from me. Though bhoydy's suggestion would be the first choice for me.

That makes sense given the context.

You are right about the chat rooms being fast paced. However my biggest gripe is that even with my elementary Thai, people believe that I am far more proficient than I actually am. I get comments such as เก่งเลย quite frequently although I am anything but.

I've never seen ดิฉัน in a chat room or on facebook. กุ is the pronoun of choice it seems. Although when I use it my ex batters me. I'd rather be quite formal until I adequately determine the situation, I curse a lot in English and it's a habit that I don't want to carry over into Thai.

Fair point to go for formal first - though perhaps a different (or at least additional) proving ground might be in order to help facilitate this. It's good to know that the same friendly encouragement is afforded language learners online as is the case face to face. I can't count the number of times a simple สวัสดีครับ has returned a smiling โอ้โห พูดไทยเก่งจังเลย. Certainly more encouraging then some of the possible alternatives. I honestly wouldn't stress over it. Life has few enough complements as it is - take em where you can get em.

[fabianfred]

I learned Thai from the Linguaphone Course set of books and tapes and then went to AUA in Chiangmai which incidently used the same system...that created for the US Government by Mary Haas.

What I found most useful was, besides having large dictionaries of T/E and E/T at home, I made my own personal dictionary.

I got a nice hardback notebook and divided it into the A-Z afew pages for each. Then I added the Thai words under the A-Z letter which sounded closest...so that I could easily find them. Added all the important words I used regularly, and as soon as I learnt the Thai script also added the Thai word in thai script, along with the meanings in English.

I could carry it with me always and it was much easier to find words that I knew I had met and added than by using even a pocket dict of the usual type.

Because I find it easier to remember a word if I have written it down.

Here are a few sample pages..... in the Thai sript book by Linguaphone they had about 7 or 8 different tables showing how to use the tones...so I combined them into one of my own making....