Raising Pigs In Thailand: A Better Way

[charlie10]

For anyone thinking about starting a pig farm I would say, think long and hard. There's a danger that, in ignorance, you'll go the intensive farming route that abandons any pretence of understanding or catering for the behavioral and welfare needs of the pigs you raise.

You'll adopt a large scale, crowded, concrete intensive factory farming system of raising methods that are nothing short of criminal.

You'll inflict the type of cruelty that even the lax EU regulations would forbid, and think nothing of it.

Your system of raising pigs will focus on your needs to manage the farm rather than cater and respect the core welfare and behavioral needs of the pigs you intend to raise.

You'll crowd them in, and then crowd them in some more.

The place will stink and your pigs will be covered in the millions of flies your system of raising them in has created.

You'll keep your sows imprisoned in gestation and farrowing crates that prevent any kind of movement, and you'll take the piglets away within a couple of weeks so it can be impregnated again.

You'll mutilate at will, convinced that this is the way to stop your pigs, crazed from the sterile non-stimulating overcrowded environment you have inflicted on them, from harming each other.

You'll give your pigs regular doses of medicine and vaccinations to help ward of the disease that is rampant in your system,.

You'll be so money focused you'll be feeding growth hormones to your pigs on a regular basis so that they reach 'market' weight even earlier.

You'll delude yourself you care and that your pigs are really well looked after.

I say all this because I've seen this happen time and time again.

That's the bad news. The good news is that there is a better way that fully caters for the pig's core behavioral and welfare needs, and delivers you even better profit than the concrete torture chamber approach.

Our pig raising system:

o respects the need to maintain stable family groups,

o ensures rooting and digging behavior can take place,

o allocates sufficient space so the pigs are unstressed and uncrowded,

o feeds fresh as well as pre-mixed/dry mix food to the pigs at a fraction of the feed cost used by the factory farm system,

o has pig sties devoid of smell,

o attracts no flies,

o provides ample space so that the pigs don't have to lie in their own feces or urine,

o has sties doesn't require daily, weekly or even monthly mucking out,

o produces top quality fertilizer far beyond that of the 'kee moo' most sell,

o Causes no outside pollution

o Requires no cesspits

In addition, the pigs in this system are so content:

o That there is no need to mutilate them: no tail docking, no teeth cutting.

o That pigs can be imprenated and give birth without any need to use the cruel gestation and farrowing crates

o That it produces pigs so healthy that there is no need for any routine vaccination or medical protection.

This system will cost a fraction of what it costs to set up the inhumane factory farms, respects the welfare and behavioral needs of the pigs, and delivers significantly higher profit per pig than any conventional concrete intensive pig raising system.

Want to learn more? If you are thinking of getting into pig farming please contact me first and see our higher pig welfare system in action FREE. I live in Isaan, in jangwat Kalasin. Don't be a pig abuser. Please contact me on: [email protected].

[slapout]

Not being a abuser of pigs myself, more a consumer of good ribs, pulled pork, smoked hams, bacon etc, thus not interested in a pig welfare system. Your not raising those organic, free range, pigs again, are you? If so, I know a few of your old acquaintances who would like to meet up.

[glomp]

How many pigs do you have and is this your main business?

[IsaanAussie]

Charlie F Wit,

How dare you drop this sort of <deleted> on people like us. Moderators do your duty, I am willing to be the lamb to be slaughtered.

I sit on the floor with my piglets to gain their trust. I hand feed them with greenery to promote their health and happiness. I have many friends who also care more for thier own meaning to life and the best interests of the animals that may well help us achieve that if we are prepared to put in the hard yards.

How dare you judge me and people like me with your meaning of the universe. Monty Python told us all the answer is 42, so "F" you.

Indignent

Isaanaussie

[WatersEdge]

Perhaps we your readers would be more receptive

if you didn't start with a criticism of operations you haven't seen.

I come away still quite comfortable with the concept of integrated farming.

and my pigs?,

just did a walk through before heading to the house,

They think they're in heaven

so at this point I'm not going to wreck their future

by telling them how bad things actually are.

You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I never understood who wanted to catch flies,

but the folksy saying generally means that

being sweet will get you quicker to where you want to be.

Ha, I should have been a consultant to wood bee righters.

[charlie10]

Quick responses:

SLAP:OUT 'Your not raising those organic, free range, pigs again, are you?'

It's not a free range organic system. Would be interested to know if free range can effectively work in the hot Thai climate though. Any steer on that would be appreciated.

GLOMP: 'How many pigs do you have and is this your main business?'

I am a small holder who is not interested in large scale pig production.My stock levels range between 15-50. However, the system I use is practiced extensively in Korea for raising pigs hundreds of pigs. It works for small scale and large scale farmers.

Isaan Aussie:

I am judging a system of intensive pig raising. I am highlighting the availability of an alternative that enables large scale pig farming without the inherent cruelty of the factory farm system. If you want to debate any aspect of the factory farming system in particular, or how you choose to raise your pigs, I willing to do so, preferably without the name calling.

WATEREDGE: Perhaps we your readers would be more receptive if you didn't start with a criticism of operations you haven't seen.

I have highlighted my general perceptions of what goes on with intensive farming based on my own personal experiences of these operations. It is also based on the wealth of authorative vetinary and scientific EU reports that have been produced on this matter, and a wide range of literature I have read that highlight the atrocious conditions pigs in such systems are being raised in. It is also based on my own first hand experience of raising pigs and observing behaviour. When a system takes no account of the behavorial needs of the animals it raises, it is wrong; and when it deliberately inflicts over-crowding, multilations, farrowing pens and gestration crates on these animals it is indefensible. No if's or buts.

[glomp]

What im sure alot of people would like to read more about this if you got in to specifics and how to scale it.

Scale is after all important.

[RedBullHorn]

you call it over crowding...my reseach said it's call Intensive Farming...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_pig_farming

btw free range n intensive...i choose the latter...and in term of animal welfare, i've compensated in my own ways and i not in the mood to tell.

hey, it's a free world, the authorities find nothing wrong with this kind of farming practice and if you feel like it, build them a 5 star facility sty or shed and includ in a tread mil and jacuzzi pool.

just my 2 satang...

[IsaanAussie]

you call it over crowding...my reseach said it's call Intensive Farming...

http://en.wikipedia....ive_pig_farming

btw free range n intensive...i choose the latter...and in term of animal welfare, i've compensated in my own ways and i not in the mood to tell.

hey, it's a free world, the authorities find nothing wrong with this kind of farming practice and if you feel like it, build them a 5 star facility sty or shed and includ in a tread mil and jacuzzi pool.

just my 2 satang...

RBH,

I will downgrade my sty to 4 star immediately, never thought of the tread mill, oh bother!

I have gestation pens they measure 3 x 5 metres and are fitted with 4 individual, full length feedstalls. Each is fitted with individual bowl feeder and drinking bowl. The back of the pen is open as usual 3 x 3 metres and has a laying area and dunging area with two drinkers. The 5 pens each hold 4 sows. Yes I can close off the back of each stall to form a gestation crate, or vet handling crate call it what you will. My logic is simple. 1. Pigs are social animals, each group of four are sisters and have lived together constantly. 2. Sows confront each other usually at feeding times. Studies show that full length feeding partitions offer the best protection from conflict 3. 250Kg sows are difficult to handle at the best of times. 4. Early pregnancy period needs special care.

So whats the option? House each one separately? I dont believe pigs enjoy solitary confinement.

I also have farrowing crates each mounted diagonally in a 2.5 x 2.5 metre stall. They are there for the safety of the piglets and people. One side can be opened so sows can turn around after the first few days when the chance of crushing is diminished, the piglet area remains closed off for the sow.

For those that believe there is cruelity in my approach, explain it to me. To my mind this is best practice. I have the best interests of the pigs and myself at heart.

It is also a good idea to remember that this is a business from which profit is intended to be made.

Isaanaussie

Edited July 15, 2010 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

I am fascinated by Charlie10's post.

Actually it is unusual that personal email addresses dont get edited out. In this case there is something about the address that was familiar and has had me scratching my head trying to remember what it was. I have just remembered the memory it triggered. Two half brothers, friends from my youth. John Sillick and Robert Hunt. They both went by the hyphenated name of Sillick-Hunt.

Isaanaussie

[charlie10]

you call it over crowding...my reseach said it's call Intensive Farming...

http://en.wikipedia....ive_pig_farming

btw free range n intensive...i choose the latter...and in term of animal welfare, i've compensated in my own ways and i not in the mood to tell.

hey, it's a free world, the authorities find nothing wrong with this kind of farming practice and if you feel like it, build them a 5 star facility sty or shed and includ in a tread mil and jacuzzi pool.

just my 2 satang...

Although I suspect your post is intended to be somewhat flippant and light hearted, the way we raise our pigs is an important issue. So, please accept my apologies if I am taking your post too seriously, but there may be some people reading this thread interested in understanding more about the pig welfare issues I have highlighted. I'd therefore like to respond to a few points from your thread.

'hey, it's a free world,' :

Unless you're a pig trapped in one of these systems...

'the authorities find nothing wrong with this kind of farming practice' :

In Thailand maybe not, but in the majority of developed countries where there is a high justified concern about the way pigs are raised, they find lot's wrong. For instance, In the EU, there are clear laws requiring pig sties to have manipulable materials, as the need of pigs to root and dig is a fundamental behavorial need and drive. There are also directives banning routine tail docking because this is judged to be painful and needless practice.

'btw free range n intensive...i choose the latter' :

That's your choice. But choice it is, which means you, and others who have intensive pig raising systems, can if you / they so choose, make some small changes that have immense welfare benefits to the pigs being raised. Whilst free range and intensive systems are opposite extremes, it is possible to have higher welfare intensive systems. Adding manipulable material, stopping the unnceessary mutilations, and designing a piglet production system that doesn't require caging are some things that could be considered. To change the latter does necessarily mean more work or greater risk of dead piglets. It just requires a more compassionate approach to your pigs and a modification of how you choose to run your pig production system. And as my initial post shows there are pig raising systems available that fall between free range and intensive that can offer significant animal and producer benefits.

Please take a look at this downloadable report from CIWF: Aspects of good agricultural practice: Pig Production. It contains lots of good infromation that will be of interest to anyone raising pigs, and provides options on how to improve pig welfare should you wish to do so. Case studies are also given.

http://www.ciwf.org....ok/default.aspx

[IsaanAussie]

Charlie10,

Thanks for the link I downloaded the full book and have quickly scanned through the content. I find many parallels with my own operation and will continue to read it in detail.

The differences of opinion that we have are demonstrated as well. I noticed several references to things where comments such as "may improve" or "could prevent" are made, tail docking is a good example. I do dock the tails of new born piglets, and I cut their teeth. I have had tails bitten off and teats damaged. To me these are both the lesser of two evils. These sort of differences of opinion will be with us for ever.

I use straw as bedding and as a manipulation focus as well as a method of dry muck out cleanup pre compost heap. It definitely is more work and the floors do not stay as clean but thats OK as the power washer takes care of that every few days and it produces the best compost I have ever seen.

I admit being fiercely proud and defensive of my methods and believes as I suggest you are as well. Maybe we are not so far apart after all. So for what it's worth I suppose I should apologise for offering too strong an attitude. Sorry.

Isaanaussie

[RedBullHorn]

Chalie10...i'd asume that your boars are not castrated too (Boar Taint) ?

Edited July 16, 2010 by RedBullHorn

[charlie10]

Charlie10, Thanks for the link I downloaded the full book and have quickly scanned through the content. I find many parallels with my own operation and will continue to read it in detail. The differences of opinion that we have are demonstrated as well. I noticed several references to things where comments such as "may improve" or "could prevent" are made, tail docking is a good example. I do dock the tails of new born piglets, and I cut their teeth. I have had tails bitten off and teats damaged. To me these are both the lesser of two evils. These sort of differences of opinion will be with us for ever. I use straw as bedding and as a manipulation focus as well as a method of dry muck out cleanup pre compost heap. It definitely is more work and the floors do not stay as clean but thats OK as the power washer takes care of that every few days and it produces the best compost I have ever seen. I admit being fiercely proud and defensive of my methods and believes as I suggest you are as well. Maybe we are not so far apart after all. So for what it's worth I suppose I should apologise for offering too strong an attitude. Sorry. Isaanaussie

Thanks. It takes a big man to write what you have. I respect you for it. I think perhaps I too should be offering an apology to you, and others I may have offended. My opening thread was somewhat strong in polarising the issues, and in hindsight, I can see it was bound to provoke a reaction such as your initial one.

I would agree that the report does hedge things a bit, more so than I would be inclined to. I don't teeth clip and to date have yet to see any problems with sows teats, or with biting amongst the pigs. I also don't tail dock but this may be a bit of a gamble as most of my piglets are sold on. I use an open deep bed sty system which provides a good degree of stimulation for the pigs who can root and dig at will. I worry that is less stimulating environments there might be a problem, but have had no reports back saying there has been.

I'm really pleased to hear that you are using some straw bedding as I do think it provides some stimulation for the pigs. I wonder whether you have ever tried using 'gaep' (rice hulls) as a flooring alternative to straw? It would do a similar job to straw but has the advantage of mixing in with the pig feaces and urine to make very good compost. It has the advantage of being very cheap too if you buy it in the small village 'lonhg see's' (rice threshing places), around 2 baht for a 30 - 50kg kg bag size. I've never used this with a concrete floor system and just wonder whether it's a practical alternative to straw or not. You could in theory layer it pretty deep and reduce the frequency requirement for flushing out/mucking out. It might be worth loooking at. Would be interested in your views on this.

[IsaanAussie]

Thanks. It takes a big man to write what you have. I respect you for it. I think perhaps I too should be offering an apology to you, and others I may have offended. My opening thread was somewhat strong in polarising the issues, and in hindsight, I can see it was bound to provoke a reaction such as your initial one.

I would agree that the report does hedge things a bit, more so than I would be inclined to. I don't teeth clip and to date have yet to see any problems with sows teats, or with biting amongst the pigs. I also don't tail dock but this may be a bit of a gamble as most of my piglets are sold on. I use an open deep bed sty system which provides a good degree of stimulation for the pigs who can root and dig at will. I worry that is less stimulating environments there might be a problem, but have had no reports back saying there has been.

I'm really pleased to hear that you are using some straw bedding as I do think it provides some stimulation for the pigs. I wonder whether you have ever tried using 'gaep' (rice hulls) as a flooring alternative to straw? It would do a similar job to straw but has the advantage of mixing in with the pig feaces and urine to make very good compost. It has the advantage of being very cheap too if you buy it in the small village 'lonhg see's' (rice threshing places), around 2 baht for a 30 - 50kg kg bag size. I've never used this with a concrete floor system and just wonder whether it's a practical alternative to straw or not. You could in theory layer it pretty deep and reduce the frequency requirement for flushing out/mucking out. It might be worth loooking at. Would be interested in your views on this.

OK, so we got off to a bad start. Done and dusted as far as I am concerned.

I use straw because I have over 400 bales, that simple. I have used rice hulls in compost and in conditioning clay based soils in Australia. A friend here uses it as bedding in his sty and in heaps in the dunging area to good effect. The straw I am using is chopped into small pieces as straight from the bale makes the compost mixing difficult. After the pigs have played with and slept on the straw it is quite crushed and soaks up moisture well. I find that I have to add very little water to the compost heap as the moisture content straight out of the pen is about right. I have also found that the manure mixs better in the sty than either letting it dry a little and then mixing it with dry straw in the compost bins, oe after it becomes slurry after wash out. Finally I find the straw base compost is light and airy and without smell. I put that down to frequent turning and the C to N ratio being as close to 30 to 1 as I can get it. If the new material starts to smell, add more straw. If it is slow and doesnt heat up quickly add more manure and so on. One last thing is the straw saves damage to the floor that some pigs like to do.

I add the straw by dumping out a feed bag full in a heap and letting the pigs spread it around. Sometimes I throw a few handfuls of feed into the heap to keep their attention on rooting around.

My sty is designed as a breeding facility and I have limited growing and finishing places. I am thinking of building hoop barns on a second site in the future to add to capacity. These I would like to be deep litter floors. The main issue being the land I have is low lying rice paddy and would have to be filled to above the flood level and then further to accomodate the depth of the litter fill. Need to see a return on current investment first.

[charlie10]

Chalie10...i'd asume that your boars are not castrated too (Boar Taint) ?

Castration. A big issue. And one I'm having major problems with. I sell a high proportion of the pigs I breed, either as piglets or as pigs to be slaughtered for meat. None of my potential customers wants a non-castrated boar. They fear boar taint.

I personally would prefer not to castrate. I don't believe there is a pain-free way to do it, and the recommendation for using anasthesia / analgesics pre and post operation is not practical to administer. Also, the recommendation to cut rather than tear the cords is not a practical option here in Thailand given the skills of those people who do castration.

The scientific consensus I've read seems to be that at best only 7% of all boars will be affected by boar taint, if memory serves me correct. Other scientific evidence from the authorative EU Scientic Vetinary Report On the Welfare of Intensively Kept Pigs that was commisioned to advise the EU Council on it's pig welfare policy indicated that boar taint effects few animals under the weight of 100-110 kg. Therefore, if you kill a boar before it reaches 100 kg in weight, there is no threat of boar taint. This seems to be bourne out by countries such as the UK, where 100% of all boars are not castrated, and boar taint is not a problem.

To date we've castrated. The problem is one of overcoming people's fears about boar taint, and that fear isn't easy to overcome. I will be giving non-castration a go with our next set of piglets, as I intend to raise these for meat. I'll therefore see for myself whether it's a doable option to raise non-castrated, boar taint free pigs. The proof will be in the eating!

[fruity]

Charlie,

Fortunately my poor connection has prevented me from replying before now. I say fortunately, as due to your rather haughty first post, this reply would have been quite different in tone. Now having the benefit of reading your subsequent posts I can see that you really did get off on the wrong foot & put a lot of 'backs up'!

Lots of what you say is very true and you make some salient points with which I agree, however, lots of what you say is unpractical.

I will begin with boar taint. Irregardless of the scientific concensus you have quoted let me say & I stress, all my opinions are 'educated ones' drawn from many years EXPERIENCE with pigs, man & boy. Boar taint develops when the young chap begins to feel randy & his pee begins to stink. The age at which this happens varies with the individual, however, ALWAYS, a long way short of them being 100kgs in weight. I have a boar here who has been ejaculating since he was 3.5 months old! Keeping entires in groups is easy enough, but without some form of hormone suppressant to delay sexual impulses I cannot see that it is possible to rear boars without taint to the size you require.

All of my sows and gilts have daily outdoor exercise / access to their 'wallows' shaded by trees. They love this & I love to see them enjoying themselves. There are no gestation pens here; something that SHOULD be banned worldwide, not only in EU countries. My sows each have their own 'house' not less than 5m2, some live as pairs in larger 'rooms' all have overhead showers for use in very hot times. Each house has a chain hanging from the roof for play, as well as toys (pvc pipe bends mainly:) that they can throw around.

Farrowing crates are absolutely vital in any operation. Especially so with gilts farrowing for the first time(unknown quantities!). Experienced, non aggressive sows can farrow down virtually anywhere & allow her trusted people to handle her piglets without incident. On the other hand I've known the most docile sows become 'man eaters' when anyone has even looked at her piglets, let alone tried to pick one up. Having access to the piglets is absolutely crucial for teeth cutting, docking, iron injections etc. Again, teeth cutting a must! Modern pigs have big litters,who will not only tear the sows udder to bits, but will rip each others faces to bits just by scrumming down & suckling. Not so much of a concern in old fashioned breeds that don't have so many piglets. Regarding tail docking,we do it, however, in my opinion it isn't really a must; however, it's vital in those that are to be kept under very intensive conditions.

Bedding on straw? Very dangerous here in Thailand, straw attracts all manner of undesirables, scorpions, snakes etc. Unless, as IAussie does, you chop it first. In the cooler months, we will use rice hulls, which, as has been said provides an excellent soil improver. All of our buildings are concrete floored, they are washed out twice every day, all waste going into 2 pools, which are later pumped out onto vegetables, trees & even rice. There is no smell whatsoever.

Bare concrete floors are far from ideal, however, they are the only way in this climate that are practical. I have seen earth floored places, that work very well & are ideal for growers; in fact this is something we are currently thinking about.

I do like to think that we give our pigs a very good standard of living & in reality, don't think there is a lot more we could do to improve their situation.

Fruity

[IsaanAussie]

Fruity,

My dear friend, regardless of anyones opinion you are without doubt the most passionate pig's friend I know. You won't even eat the meat from your pigs.... It's not compassion in your case, it's passion. You have changed my outlook and I now have pigs that want to spend time with me. No fear, lots of interest and heaps of mutual enjoyment. So I smell a bit ripe at times, so what? Thanks mate.

To others,

I have taken many many tips from this lifelong pig lover. I purchased my first pigs here from Fruity and they are still the base of my breeding stock. Fruity's latest post is good advice for all of us.

Isaanaussie

Edited July 18, 2010 by IsaanAussie

[charlie10]

Charlie,

Fortunately my poor connection has prevented me from replying before now. I say fortunately, as due to your rather haughty first post, this reply would have been quite different in tone. Now having the benefit of reading your subsequent posts I can see that you really did get off on the wrong foot & put a lot of 'backs up'!

Lots of what you say is very true and you make some salient points with which I agree, however, lots of what you say is unpractical.

I will begin with boar taint. Irregardless of the scientific concensus you have quoted let me say & I stress, all my opinions are 'educated ones' drawn from many years EXPERIENCE with pigs, man & boy. Boar taint develops when the young chap begins to feel randy & his pee begins to stink. The age at which this happens varies with the individual, however, ALWAYS, a long way short of them being 100kgs in weight. I have a boar here who has been ejaculating since he was 3.5 months old! Keeping entires in groups is easy enough, but without some form of hormone suppressant to delay sexual impulses I cannot see that it is possible to rear boars without taint to the size you require.

All of my sows and gilts have daily outdoor exercise / access to their 'wallows' shaded by trees. They love this & I love to see them enjoying themselves. There are no gestation pens here; something that SHOULD be banned worldwide, not only in EU countries. My sows each have their own 'house' not less than 5m2, some live as pairs in larger 'rooms' all have overhead showers for use in very hot times. Each house has a chain hanging from the roof for play, as well as toys (pvc pipe bends mainly:) that they can throw around.

Farrowing crates are absolutely vital in any operation. Especially so with gilts farrowing for the first time(unknown quantities!). Experienced, non aggressive sows can farrow down virtually anywhere & allow her trusted people to handle her piglets without incident. On the other hand I've known the most docile sows become 'man eaters' when anyone has even looked at her piglets, let alone tried to pick one up. Having access to the piglets is absolutely crucial for teeth cutting, docking, iron injections etc. Again, teeth cutting a must! Modern pigs have big litters,who will not only tear the sows udder to bits, but will rip each others faces to bits just by scrumming down & suckling. Not so much of a concern in old fashioned breeds that don't have so many piglets. Regarding tail docking,we do it, however, in my opinion it isn't really a must; however, it's vital in those that are to be kept under very intensive conditions.

Bedding on straw? Very dangerous here in Thailand, straw attracts all manner of undesirables, scorpions, snakes etc. Unless, as IAussie does, you chop it first. In the cooler months, we will use rice hulls, which, as has been said provides an excellent soil improver. All of our buildings are concrete floored, they are washed out twice every day, all waste going into 2 pools, which are later pumped out onto vegetables, trees & even rice. There is no smell whatsoever.

Bare concrete floors are far from ideal, however, they are the only way in this climate that are practical. I have seen earth floored places, that work very well & are ideal for growers; in fact this is something we are currently thinking about.

I do like to think that we give our pigs a very good standard of living & in reality, don't think there is a lot more we could do to improve their situation.

Fruity

Thanks for posting, It's really good to hear about your approach to pig farming and to get the benefit of your advice and experience. it's clear, that like myself, and some others on this thread, you are trying to marry the practicality of raising pigs in large scale systems with an accommodation of the behavioral needs of your pigs.

I love the fact you have outdoor exercise areas. This is something I'm keen to explore further in my own operation. I use is a deep bed pen system, where my pigs are kept in staple 'family'; groups of 10-12 until slaughter. These are covered by a roof bit are open sided. They are in kept in large pens that give plenty of space to wander, frolic, root, dig etc. Whilst I believe this provides a significantly more stimulating environment than any concrete system, it has it's limitations, and I would love to be able to give them some time to explore the real world outside the pen. I have a few questions regarding your exercise areas. How do you keep the pigs from wandering off in your exercise area? Solar powered electric wiring, standard fencing, or is it just part of the enclosed pen set-up? And do you regulate the times they can go out and play or is it an open system that lets the pigs decide. For my own system, I'm considering the possibility of letting the pigs out early morning and late afternoon when the weather is coolest and the sun less powerful. But could there be implications re pick sick soil, or in this heat, would any parasites etc be killed? I do wonder how I would get them back into their respective pens though. Any advice or experience of this aspect you could provide would be most welcomely received, as, as you can see, I am at the begining of my thinking on this, and have yet to do any detailed research or planning.

Your housing system for the pigs sounds very interesting, especially the provision of overhead showers. Our pigs really do seem to suffer in the heat of this climate and we regularly pour water over them to try to cool them. The wet gaep flooring also then provides a cool surface for them to lie in, but I now recognise that this is not a satisfactory way for us to keep the pigs cool. I'm now looking at a mud bath system to provide them with a means of keeping cool, something that is an option for a small holder like me, given the relatively small numbers of pigs I keeping, and my willingness to invest time and effort in maintaining the sties. This will also provide the pigs with one of the ultimate joy of their lives, wallowing in mud. It is no coincidence that we have the association of pigs with mud. They love it! as you have no doubt observed yourself with your set-up. I see this myself with the two pigs at the house within a more traditional system. This has dirt floor covered with a thin layer of rice husks, and a mud wallow area. I get great pleasure seeing the enjoyment and stimulation they get from this environment, whether it be rooting, digging wallowing or resting. They are very active and interested throughout the day. From my observations, I think it is very clear that any system of production that departs from dirt /mud flooring, no matter how pig welfare orientated we are, represents a significant deprivation of pig behavorial need satisfaction. It's nice to see, that like myself, people you and IsaanAussie are trying to find an adequate compensation for this within the systems being used.

It is very interesting what you are saying about boar taint, as this goes against some very authorative scientific research in this area. I think the boar taint issue and castration is going to be an on-going dilemma, particularly if you don't want to use drugs to suppress the onset of it.

I'm sorry, I cannot agree on your defence of farrowing crates and the need to tooth clip. On my smaller scale operation I have yet to experience any of the problems you mention, although admittedly I'm relatively new to this game. Could the farrowing crates actually be causing the problems of sow aggression and the frenzy at feeding time from the piglets, who you observe tearing teats and each other? My sows are placid, maybe because they have the freedom to nest prior to birthing, are unrestrained throughout the farrowing process and can move around and choose where to lie throughout the farrowing period. They can also decide when expose their teats and call their piglets for feeding? Could the lack of piglet aggression I've seen be because of the stimulating environment the pigs are being raised in, with a flooring that provides interest, and a pen space that allows for exploration? Could the lack of stimulation for the piglets be the cause for the heightened level of excitement at feeding you see? Your post shows you have introduced many enlightened aspects to your pig raising system. I'm sure you could find a more enlightened approach to farrowing that would be consistent with all the other highly pig friendly features you have introduced to your operation if you put your miind to it. I hope you can give it another think.

[fruity]

Fruity,

My dear friend, regardless of anyones opinion you are without doubt the most passionate pig's friend I know. You won't even eat the meat from your pigs.... It's not compassion in your case, it's passion. You have changed my outlook and I now have pigs that want to spend time with me. No fear, lots of interest and heaps of mutual enjoyment. So I smell a bit ripe at times, so what? Thanks mate.

To others,

I have taken many many tips from this lifelong pig lover. I purchased my first pigs here from Fruity and they are still the base of my breeding stock. Fruity's latest post is good advice for all of us.

Isaanaussie

Iassan Aussie Sir,

I thank you most sincerely for your kind words:)

[fruity]

Charlie,

Fortunately my poor connection has prevented me from replying before now. I say fortunately, as due to your rather haughty first post, this reply would have been quite different in tone. Now having the benefit of reading your subsequent posts I can see that you really did get off on the wrong foot & put a lot of 'backs up'!

Lots of what you say is very true and you make some salient points with which I agree, however, lots of what you say is unpractical.

I will begin with boar taint. Irregardless of the scientific concensus you have quoted let me say & I stress, all my opinions are 'educated ones' drawn from many years EXPERIENCE with pigs, man & boy. Boar taint develops when the young chap begins to feel randy & his pee begins to stink. The age at which this happens varies with the individual, however, ALWAYS, a long way short of them being 100kgs in weight. I have a boar here who has been ejaculating since he was 3.5 months old! Keeping entires in groups is easy enough, but without some form of hormone suppressant to delay sexual impulses I cannot see that it is possible to rear boars without taint to the size you require.

All of my sows and gilts have daily outdoor exercise / access to their 'wallows' shaded by trees. They love this & I love to see them enjoying themselves. There are no gestation pens here; something that SHOULD be banned worldwide, not only in EU countries. My sows each have their own 'house' not less than 5m2, some live as pairs in larger 'rooms' all have overhead showers for use in very hot times. Each house has a chain hanging from the roof for play, as well as toys (pvc pipe bends mainly:) that they can throw around.

Farrowing crates are absolutely vital in any operation. Especially so with gilts farrowing for the first time(unknown quantities!). Experienced, non aggressive sows can farrow down virtually anywhere & allow her trusted people to handle her piglets without incident. On the other hand I've known the most docile sows become 'man eaters' when anyone has even looked at her piglets, let alone tried to pick one up. Having access to the piglets is absolutely crucial for teeth cutting, docking, iron injections etc. Again, teeth cutting a must! Modern pigs have big litters,who will not only tear the sows udder to bits, but will rip each others faces to bits just by scrumming down & suckling. Not so much of a concern in old fashioned breeds that don't have so many piglets. Regarding tail docking,we do it, however, in my opinion it isn't really a must; however, it's vital in those that are to be kept under very intensive conditions.

Bedding on straw? Very dangerous here in Thailand, straw attracts all manner of undesirables, scorpions, snakes etc. Unless, as IAussie does, you chop it first. In the cooler months, we will use rice hulls, which, as has been said provides an excellent soil improver. All of our buildings are concrete floored, they are washed out twice every day, all waste going into 2 pools, which are later pumped out onto vegetables, trees & even rice. There is no smell whatsoever.

Bare concrete floors are far from ideal, however, they are the only way in this climate that are practical. I have seen earth floored places, that work very well & are ideal for growers; in fact this is something we are currently thinking about.

I do like to think that we give our pigs a very good standard of living & in reality, don't think there is a lot more we could do to improve their situation.

Fruity

Thanks for posting, It's really good to hear about your approach to pig farming and to get the benefit of your advice and experience. it's clear, that like myself, and some others on this thread, you are trying to marry the practicality of raising pigs in large scale systems with an accommodation of the behavioral needs of your pigs.

I love the fact you have outdoor exercise areas. This is something I'm keen to explore further in my own operation. I use is a deep bed pen system, where my pigs are kept in staple 'family'; groups of 10-12 until slaughter. These are covered by a roof bit are open sided. They are in kept in large pens that give plenty of space to wander, frolic, root, dig etc. Whilst I believe this provides a significantly more stimulating environment than any concrete system, it has it's limitations, and I would love to be able to give them some time to explore the real world outside the pen. I have a few questions regarding your exercise areas. How do you keep the pigs from wandering off in your exercise area? Solar powered electric wiring, standard fencing, or is it just part of the enclosed pen set-up? And do you regulate the times they can go out and play or is it an open system that lets the pigs decide. For my own system, I'm considering the possibility of letting the pigs out early morning and late afternoon when the weather is coolest and the sun less powerful. But could there be implications re pick sick soil, or in this heat, would any parasites etc be killed? I do wonder how I would get them back into their respective pens though. Any advice or experience of this aspect you could provide would be most welcomely received, as, as you can see, I am at the begining of my thinking on this, and have yet to do any detailed research or planning.

Your housing system for the pigs sounds very interesting, especially the provision of overhead showers. Our pigs really do seem to suffer in the heat of this climate and we regularly pour water over them to try to cool them. The wet gaep flooring also then provides a cool surface for them to lie in, but I now recognise that this is not a satisfactory way for us to keep the pigs cool. I'm now looking at a mud bath system to provide them with a means of keeping cool, something that is an option for a small holder like me, given the relatively small numbers of pigs I keeping, and my willingness to invest time and effort in maintaining the sties. This will also provide the pigs with one of the ultimate joy of their lives, wallowing in mud. It is no coincidence that we have the association of pigs with mud. They love it! as you have no doubt observed yourself with your set-up. I see this myself with the two pigs at the house within a more traditional system. This has dirt floor covered with a thin layer of rice husks, and a mud wallow area. I get great pleasure seeing the enjoyment and stimulation they get from this environment, whether it be rooting, digging wallowing or resting. They are very active and interested throughout the day. From my observations, I think it is very clear that any system of production that departs from dirt /mud flooring, no matter how pig welfare orientated we are, represents a significant deprivation of pig behavorial need satisfaction. It's nice to see, that like myself, people you and IsaanAussie are trying to find an adequate compensation for this within the systems being used.

It is very interesting what you are saying about boar taint, as this goes against some very authorative scientific research in this area. I think the boar taint issue and castration is going to be an on-going dilemma, particularly if you don't want to use drugs to suppress the onset of it.

I'm sorry, I cannot agree on your defence of farrowing crates and the need to tooth clip. On my smaller scale operation I have yet to experience any of the problems you mention, although admittedly I'm relatively new to this game. Could the farrowing crates actually be causing the problems of sow aggression and the frenzy at feeding time from the piglets, who you observe tearing teats and each other? My sows are placid, maybe because they have the freedom to nest prior to birthing, are unrestrained throughout the farrowing process and can move around and choose where to lie throughout the farrowing period. They can also decide when expose their teats and call their piglets for feeding? Could the lack of piglet aggression I've seen be because of the stimulating environment the pigs are being raised in, with a flooring that provides interest, and a pen space that allows for exploration? Could the lack of stimulation for the piglets be the cause for the heightened level of excitement at feeding you see? Your post shows you have introduced many enlightened aspects to your pig raising system. I'm sure you could find a more enlightened approach to farrowing that would be consistent with all the other highly pig friendly features you have introduced to your operation if you put your miind to it. I hope you can give it another think.

Firstly, I.A Sorry for mispelling your 'handle'

Charlie,

Thanks for your positive response. I'm afraid, we will have to agree to disagree regarding farrowing crates. I agree with many of your points & admit, I am always somewhat saddened especially when a sow is deprived of being allowed to follow her nesting instincts. My personal approach is to get the entire 'family' out of the crate at the earliest opportunity; as soon as all ministrations are over and providing of course that all is well, moving them into a larger room, with a creep area sectioned off, preventing the sow from eating the piglets feed etc. A couple of points, my farrowing crates have much more floor space for piglets than most, they are elevated with plastic slatted floors for cleanliness & we liberally employ the use of hessian rice bags, which they love to snuggle into.

So in essence, my sows/ gilts spend about half as much time in a farrowing crate as most do & get to spend at least a couple of weeks free with their families.

Regarding exercise areas. Mine isn't a massive area, approx 25 by 15 mtrs is fenced with 1mtr high chainlink on concrete posts cemented into the ground. To prevent it from becomming 'pig-sick' any droppings are collected up & it is regularly rotovated. The wallows are regularly drained, filled in then the pigs dig out their own again. I basically operate a rota system, those who have a friend, go out together, those who don't go out alone. Its fairly easy, as when they are ready, they go back inside themselves, where they know they'll be washed down, then the next door is opened & so on. There is always someone around, so its not a problem here. On the odd occasion when one needs to be gotten back inside & is reluctant to leave the wallow, a rattle of the feed scoop will do the trick. If you don't like mud, forget it, however, the extra work is a pleasure after seeing them enjoy themselves.

Boar taint is, as you say a bit of a dilemma. There are so many opinions on the subject? I'd personally not want a pen full of 'bolchy' adolescent boars to deal with under any circumstances.

[charlie10]

Thanks for your response. I'm certainly getting a better picture of your operation with each post. From what you're saying, it's clear that for you farrowing crates are a necessary evil. I salute your approach of moving of your sow and litter at what you would judge the earliest opportunity, thus halving the amount of time spent in there. A larger piglet area within the farrow crate is also very positive. However, given your obvious empathy with your pigs, it does raise the question: why don't you simply put the birthing sow in a seperate pen with creep area? This is something I do with mine, and I have no problems resulting from this practice. Is it a space issue, or an operational one? Thanks for describing how you operate your free run area and your appraoch to keeping it pig sick free. Very useful information for me as I contemplate developing a free access area in my own system. And finally, thank you for taking the time for discussing the issues and your own particular style of pig operation. I, for one, have found your responses most illuminating. You've also help put to rest the notion I may have had that all intensive pig farmers are evil b.......s. It's clearly not that black and white.

[IsaanAussie]

I for one am intrigued by the term intensive farming. Surely its an oxymoron.

No farm animal is free to live a "natural" life. There is always dependency for food and some form of confinement or restriction. So just where is the line crossed? How small does a pen have to be, to make that farm intensive?

Define the term for me, please. To me most of the intensity is in the efforts of the farmer.

Isaanaussie

[RedBullHorn]

Frankly...i couldn't care more, i'm running a farm business for livinghood, not a shelter or rescue center, others can call it what they want !... As long as there's no sign of stress or absurd abuse (there's people caught mounting sow with their pants down)

People that want to consider very good welfare, should take them in as pets, shouldn't farm piggeries, shouldn't raise them for slaughter, should turn vegetarian and not eat meat !!!...We have abbots betting underground lotteries and eating meat !...Criticise that ~

[IsaanAussie]

Frankly...i couldn't care more, i'm running a farm business for livinghood, not a shelter or rescue center, others can call it what they want !... As long as there's no sign of stress or absurd abuse (there's people caught mounting sow with their pants down)

People that want to consider very good welfare, should take them in as pets, shouldn't farm piggeries, shouldn't raise them for slaughter, should turn vegetarian and not eat meat !!!...We have abbots betting underground lotteries and eating meat !...Criticise that ~

Well said RBH,

It is a business for me too. The future of the pigs is pre-ordained, and pre-planned. I mean them no harm but most are ultimately going to die young. That means caring well for the pigs to protect the investment.

Isaanaussie

[RedBullHorn]

yeah IA ! we are foreigner living in this loving country...like many others, we planned ahead with financial security like investments in our home country so we don't really depends on the farming income, but investment is an investment, most of us hands-on on those projects to do the learning curves...like others, back home i earn big bucks ! Tell friends i'm here as a farmer, people who knows me have only admiration and envies the life i live.

Farming live stocks is farming...not love animals as pet association or society...welfare are taken care of to certain extend, like many others, this is not my core business and there's other business to attend to.

[IsaanAussie]

It is all to easy to be judgemental of others, especially in this our host country where blaming others is apparently part of preserving FACE. My personal situation here is entirely of my own making as I believe it is it is for all of us. I am here because I want to be. I find that the Thai saying "Up to you" is the test. For me they are right, that is exactly what it is all about, up to us. I enjoy living here with my wife, I dislike the implication that I have a money tree growing in some secret location and unless I continually anti-up to cure all ills, family, extended family and free loaders all, then I am Black Hearted. But that is just me..... Viva Le Difference

Isaanaussie

[IsaanAussie]

I found out this afternoon that I need to improve a few details in the pig palace. A piglet about ten kilos had managed to get her head stuck in the dung holes out of her pen. Together we managed to get her stuck noggin out of the hole but she was distressed, verybruised and rather cold. So after a couple of hours of holding her in a blanket I put her back in with her litter siblings to keep her warm tonight. Nature will take its course tonight, I hope she survives.

Isaanaussie

A very intensive farmer

[RedBullHorn]

pigs are smart and can be train equal to dogs (we knew)...i was rather amuse when my earlier batch arrived, my neighbour told me to guide them throught the shed door, never lift it over the walls to put it on the floor or else they'd soon learn to climb out, then i should lie flat on the floor while the piglets are watching and be still and quite for a couples of minutes....done it !

i think it and the rest would not explore that dung hole anymore...

[fruity]

I found out this afternoon that I need to improve a few details in the pig palace. A piglet about ten kilos had managed to get her head stuck in the dung holes out of her pen. Together we managed to get her stuck noggin out of the hole but she was distressed, verybruised and rather cold. So after a couple of hours of holding her in a blanket I put her back in with her litter siblings to keep her warm tonight. Nature will take its course tonight, I hope she survives.

Isaanaussie

A very intensive farmer

IA, I hope your piglet recovers soon. These things happen!

In my book, taking care of any type of livestock is simply to make sure that during the time the animal(s) are in your charge, they are given the best possible care, their welfare of paramount importance. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by worrying about 'what others do with their stock' This is totally beyond your control. A sad fact of life.

My personal approach to keeping my pigs may be thought by some to be eccentric, over the top! I disagree. As has already been written here, a pigs short life is pre-ordained, why not make it as good as possible? It costs no extra!

Having made my living through involvement with many forms of commercial livestock I can hardly be called a ' Do-Gooder", however, theres nothing wrong with showing a little empathy towards stock in your care.