Marriage In Thailand After Having A Baby....

[Carry]

Hi ladies,

I am new to the forum, after 'getting lost' for a while in all the interesting and sometimes familiar stories, I thought I might ask my question here:

After living together with my Thai bf in Thailand for a couple of years now, we want to get married, I am pregnant with our first child [and back in europe for a while for that reason] and according to a Thai friend [who got married to his farang lady after having their 2nd child] it is a lot more paperwork when you want to get married and there is a child involved...

I can't seem to find a whole lot of info about this, does any of you have any experience?

I know what papers to bring from the Cityhall of my birthplace to get maried but other than that...?

Thanks for reading!

[Carry]

Oops something went wrong, thought I lost the other post somehow...so now it's posted twice, dont know if [it's possible] and how to delete one??

[Carry]

Oops something went wrong, thought I lost the other post somehow...so now it's posted twice, dont know if [it's possible] and how to delete one??

[redfish44]

Hi Carry,

I haven't got married yet, but have been looking into and I now that the following 3 steps are required:

1. get documentation from your embassy in Bangkok proving you have been divorced/are a widow/never been married (Aus embassy uses a statutory declaration, if you are australian just email them, they will send you mor einfo and advise where/when to go etc and other info - I got that far a few months back, other embassies probably just as helpful)

2. get an official translation into thai of this document

3. take this to the ministry of foreign affiars in bangkok to get verified

there are some more steps after this, but am not really sure as different for foreign woman marrying thai national

sbk and boo would know more than me

I see some places your man has to be able to have proof he can support you, some places say you need proof of your salary (foreign men marrying thai ladies need to prove they have funds to support thai wife)

Some places also say your man has to have done 3 years of tax returns - not seen this in a while though, no idea how to get info for this

anyway, you take your ministry of foreign affairs doc and your passport to the amphur with your man and they marry you officially (paperwork), some wedding packages send a representative to do this at a ceremony, depends where you are

reports that is easy to get married at amphurs in bangkok - not sure though as not done myself

let me know how you go as probably doing the same myself soon and any current info greatly appreciated!

[Mario2008]

No, it isn't a lot more work to get married. If the foreign spouse is divorced it is a lot more work, as also the divorce papers need to be certified by the embassy, translated and certified again by the Thai foreign ministry.

If the child is born before you are married there will be extra paperwork involved for the father to become the father of the child as far as the law is concerned. If the child is born in Thailand, it will not be a problem. The moment you marry, the father will become the legal of the child and that problem is settled.

You seem to be having the child in your own country, in that case the father needs to legitimize the child under the law of your country.

[samran]

visa wise, it is alot simpler to be married.

For a foreign female spouse of a Thai husband, the requirements to get annual extensions of stay are generally a formality and don't require any proof of financial capability. Furthermore, the path to Thai citizenship is significantly easier (though not fast) for foreign women married to a Thai male that it is the other way around.

[sarahsbloke]

No, it isn't a lot more work to get married. If the foreign spouse is divorced it is a lot more work, as also the divorce papers need to be certified by the embassy, translated and certified again by the Thai foreign ministry.

If the child is born before you are married there will be extra paperwork involved for the father to become the father of the child as far as the law is concerned. If the child is born in Thailand, it will not be a problem. The moment you marry, the father will become the legal of the child and that problem is settled.

You seem to be having the child in your own country, in that case the father needs to legitimize the child under the law of your country.

When I got married, earlier this year, only the British consulate wanted to see my ORIGINAL divorce decree before issuing my "Affirmation of freedom to marry". Not required by ministry of foreign affairs.

Best to get married in Thailand before baby born, everything easy then.

Edited August 2, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Carry]

No, it isn't a lot more work to get married. If the foreign spouse is divorced it is a lot more work, as also the divorce papers need to be certified by the embassy, translated and certified again by the Thai foreign ministry.

If the child is born before you are married there will be extra paperwork involved for the father to become the father of the child as far as the law is concerned. If the child is born in Thailand, it will not be a problem. The moment you marry, the father will become the legal of the child and that problem is settled.

You seem to be having the child in your own country, in that case the father needs to legitimize the child under the law of your country.

When I got married, earlier this year, only the British consulate wanted to see my ORIGINAL divorce decree before issuing my "Affirmation of freedom to marry". Not required by ministry of foreign affairs.

Best to get married in Thailand before baby born, everything easy then.

That's my question what is it that makes it harder if we would get married after the baby is born??

[sarahsbloke]

No, it isn't a lot more work to get married. If the foreign spouse is divorced it is a lot more work, as also the divorce papers need to be certified by the embassy, translated and certified again by the Thai foreign ministry.

If the child is born before you are married there will be extra paperwork involved for the father to become the father of the child as far as the law is concerned. If the child is born in Thailand, it will not be a problem. The moment you marry, the father will become the legal of the child and that problem is settled.

You seem to be having the child in your own country, in that case the father needs to legitimize the child under the law of your country.

When I got married, earlier this year, only the British consulate wanted to see my ORIGINAL divorce decree before issuing my "Affirmation of freedom to marry". Not required by ministry of foreign affairs.

Best to get married in Thailand before baby born, everything easy then.

That's my question what is it that makes it harder if we would get married after the baby is born??

If the father does a 'runner' without you being married (or just changes his mind) he will have no future legal responsibility towards the child, and the child will not be entitled to Thai nationality.

Why cause potential problems for yourself or your baby.Typical Thai mindset is argue with your partner, walk out and never see them again, waiting to get married leaves a lot to chance.

Edited August 2, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Mario2008]

Under Thai law, the father will automatically become the father before the law if it is born during the marriage. If not married, the child will have no legal father untill the fahter legitimizes the child. One way to do this is if you marry the father of the child, he than becomes automatically the legal father of the child.

Since the child will be born in another country than Thailand, the rules of that country will apply. (Almost) all countries require the father to legalize the child in order for him to become the legal father of the child when the parents are not married. So check how the father needs to do that in your country.

Note that if the child is born abroad the birth also has to be registered with the Thai embassy and get a Thai birth certificate. That establishes that the child is (also) Thai. At the same time you can apply for a Thai passport for the child. Of course you will first need the birth certificate from your own country and also need the father to do this.

Thai law allows dual nationality, check what your own countries law say about this. most countries will allow it if the child is born with two nationalities, as in this case.

[Carry]

Thanks so much for the replies, makes it all a lot more clear!

[mcplumeria]

Hi Carry,

I would think carefully about getting married here if I was you. The benefits are probably only an easy visa, but there are other ways to get a visa. But the potential negative side is rather large. Since you are having a baby, I can assume you are young, at least under 40, and probably are not set up for life finacially. In many cases here, having a child with the cultural differences that exist, are too much for many couples. I would be thinking about your future, in the very long term, what will you do if you want to divorce? What happens if your husband is willing to stop his child from leaving Thailand? Even if he does pay you child support, can you live off 3000 baht a month? What would happen if you two split, you can't leave Thailand, are you in a position to support yourself and a baby for the next 20 years?

Even if you are a teacher or someone that can make a living here, is it enough, is it what you would want for your child? I mean, will you want international schools? Or is goverment school okay? Will you be earning enough to set aside for retirement, will you be earning a pension, or things like this?

Many foreign men who come to live in Thailand, and end up with a child, have gotten into difficult positons. They can't leave, the mother doesn't even want to care for the child, but leaves it with grandmom in some village, etc. But I think most of them, at least have the means to support themselves, to hire lawyers, to bribe the mother for custody, whatever.

I think that marriage with a Thai man isn't going to offer you much security financially, but will put you in a very powerless situation. Children seem to cause stress for the best couples. If your man is a good guy, he can treat you well and do everything for you and a baby, that he can do if he was married to you. But if he turns out not to be that great, he can cause you a lot more problems if you are married, then he can if you keep control of the situation.

[BananaLeaf]

I think that marriage with a Thai man isn't going to offer you much security financially, but will put you in a very powerless situation.

As a foreign woman who is married to a Thai man, I take offense to your quite ignorant statement.

From reading your post, your view on Thai men seems to be quite bigoted.

OP, I don't have any children yet, so I can't really comment on the paperwork issue. Good luck.

[mcplumeria]

I'm sorry to offend you BananaLeaf. Are you married to a Thai man, and living in Thailand? Have you ever been divorced, from anyone? Because if you have, you might have discovered that the person you marry, and the person you divorce, tend to be two totally different people. Luckily the laws in many Western countries, attempt to take care of both parties, in some way we usually see as equal.

What benefits, under Thai law, does a foreigner get by marrying a Thai? Even the legal benefits one is supposed to get, let's say in case of divorce, are probably very hard in practical terms, to get. Some men, from everywhere in the world, make it a personal mission to hide assests, when they expect a divorce. This would be pretty easy to do in Thailand. Even if you get a child support order, there is, as I understand it, no enforcement. So, if the man doesn't want to pay, he won't pay. If you are depending on his goodwill, even in the case of marriage, then you could depend on that without marriage.

Since it is not illegal to kidnap your own child in Thailand, yet it is illegal in our home countries to do this, the foreigner is at a disadvantage already. I suppose since many woman stop their children from leaving Thailand, that won't be too difficult for a Thai father. I would feel rather powerless if the court forced me to stay in Thailand, if I want to be with my child, yet the court doesn't offer you any spousal support money, doesn't allow you to work, or you are unqualified to work here. Most Thai people don't make a lot of money. So I would say the chance of building up a big nest egg, that you get half of, is rather small. Even if you work here, lets say as many men here who need money, as an English teacher. Will you earn enough to fly home every year and visit family, to send your child to international schools, to buy one of the condos foreigners are allowed to own (with no access to credit), to have a car, to save for the future?

Okay, the benefits of marrying because you want to take your spouse to your home country, even then, what would those be? (Other than you must do this for the spouse to immigrate.) In most cases, the Thai spouse will earn less, so in that case you will be setting yourself up to pay spousal support, as well as splitting up any assets. I believe that a fair share of young woman these days, decide to have children, without getting married, even when the man is a fellow European or American or whatever, because they can get the child support checks anyway, or government help, etc., without the all the other legal entanglements.

I think coming here as a young person without independent means, or a good way of making a lot of money here that you can control, is probably a bad deal for most people from Western countries. Let's say you are 22. Are you going to be building up a credit history here? Are you going to be paying taxes to your home country, that will allow you to get all the various benefits we have (disability, medical, unemployment insurance, lower cost or free university prices, a pension, a job history?) My opinion isn't just about Thailand, but any other countries a young woman might be looking at, where the laws don't really protect her, and don't offer her any benefits, yet where she might be forced to stay.

Maybe none of this is a big worry for the OP. Maybe she is 38, has a lot of assets and investments to support herself, has a lot of life experience, and there is no chance that she won't be happily married here forever, no chance that her husband will die before her, she has a visa secured for life here already.

[sbk]

While you are absolutely correct in your assumptions about divorce and spouses hiding their assets to avoid responsibility, you are making an assumption about Thai people that is based on the belief that everyone marries a poor person.

[sunspun]

mcplumeria, you ideas about marriage and children seem rather odd.

as a young woman who moved to thailand when i was 19 and married (a thai man) when i was 21, i'd say i am in pretty good shape to politely disagree with your statements, and am wondering where this sad view of thai men came from? i am well aware of the playboys out there, but i think if OP has lived in thailand for a few years already and has been with her bf for a while, she probably knows exactly what she has gotten herself into, and i'd imagine she's not too upset about it.

as with anyone, anywhere in the world, you have to be careful. let me tell you about a foreign woman i know very well who had a child with a thai man. when the baby was one month old she said she needed to go home to see her family and show them her son, and she'd be back in 3 months. she never came back, and he has lost contact with her and his son for years.

so we must all be aware.

to the OP, i too do not have a child yet, so i can't say about the paperwork. but the marriage we went through was a breeze. hope it works out well for you

ps. fyi mcP, we are now living in my home country and my husband is currently making twice the income i am.

[mcplumeria]

HI SBK and Sunspun,

Well first of all, I am not assuming everyone marries a poor Thai person. A poor person doesn't have assets to hide. A poor person here, won't be able to afford to support a non-working farang wife and child and himself, in two different households, if they split up. A Thai who immigrates to a Western country with their partner, gets legal rights and protection. If your Thai husband decided to leave you he will have the legal right to stay in the same country as his child. He will have the legal right to work at any job he is qualified to do ...not just certain jobs. You can both have your name on property, businesses, etc. And lucky for you Sunspun, since he earns more then you, you will be able to get spousal support and child support (if you have a child) that is based on what he earns, not limited to 3000 baht a month. Your legal system will enforce this for you, in case he doesn't freely give it up. Since most Western countries are pretty serious about enforcing the payment of taxes, it is fairly straight forward to figure out who earns what, from where, etc.

However, if you are making your life in Thailand, the more educated and wealthy your husband is, probably means he will have the money, freinds, connections, power, to manipulate a lot of situations to benefit himself, if he WANTS to. I'm not sure how many of you can read Thai, but that is a big disadvantage for me. I wonder, Sunspun, if you think that if you were not married, but just living together, would anything be different? (I mean, let's say he immigrated to your country on his own before he met you.) Would he pay less of whatever he pays for now? You took on a lot of legal obligations by taking him back to your country, and I am glad it has worked out well.

Really I am just making this point: Foreigners who live here, and are married, and/or have children, we are pretty dependent on the goodwill, the honesty, the duty, that our spouses may or may not feel, and to what degree they feel this. We are not treated equally under the law, in some important areas. We do not have our own Thai family and powerful freinds we have known since primary school, to help us. Even in our own countries, in past generations, women were not so well protected. My mother could not establish credit on her own, because she was a married woman, for example. So when she got divorced after 12 years, she couldn't even qualify for a credit card, even though my family (read father) was upper middle class. So anyway, if you are not able to depend much on the legal system here, and you just have to trust your partner, then I think you could trust your partner, exactly the same, without giving yourself any extra obligations.

Your Thai spouse could be a perfect human being, but maybe you get lonely and have an affair. Maybe that changes his feeling of obligation towards you. Anyway, re this OP, I have the feeling, that maybe neither partner is rolling in money, because the woman claims she "went back to Europe because she is pregnant" and wants to come back and get married AFTER she has the baby. That indicates to me, that she might be in need of the free medical care she gets from her country. I'm not being anti-Thai (other than I would appreciate the same legal rights here, as a Thai has in my country), I am being pro-women. Re the example of the woman who took her baby back for a visit and didn't come back, well maybe she would have come back, IF SHE HAD ANY RIGHTS in Thailand. Have any of you seen the movie called "Not Without my Daughter"?

How did I get these views? Well not all of us have perfect marriages. I have had the assets disappear. I have had to pay debts that I didn't know existed and didn't approve of. Debts that were not used to support my life. I had the upaid tax bills that I have to pay later. I have had my tax refund, stolen. Let's just say I had a rather ugly story before I came to Thailand. Now in Thailand, I have a half Thai child. I have been held hostage here due to passports issues. I have had the Thai grandmother, kidnap my kid from school and keep her for a month. I have dealt with the Thai part of the family (namely grandmom) think that she is the real "owner" of my child. She went to school and took her, when I disagreed to let her visit that weekend. Grandmom started a process where she called each Friday afternoon, and took my child to her house, all weekend, EVERY weekend, and I apparently am just here to pay the bills for the private schools, for the house, for the cars, for the food, clothing, and every other expense that exists. She didn't want to visit on school days because that was too much work to take her to school. I do all the work Mon -Fri, and then when the weekend comes, I can't do any fun things with my kid, because she is always visiting family. I was basically being treated like a nanny (but with the added benefit that I can pay everything for everyone.) The very first time I confronted this issue with Grandmom directly, she reacted with stealing my kid.

The way she cared for my child was very stressful for me. She didn't give a dam_n about any safety anything. If she was in my car, and my child was in the safety car seat, she would take her out. She took her everywhere on a motorbike, no helmet, no matter how many dam_n helmets I bought. I have two cars, no need for a motorbike at all, but Thai people "want to park close to whatever." That is not an acceptable reason according to me. She did not watch or supervise her in any way. My daughter was allowed to ride this little bike thing, at 2 years old, outside, anywhere, while Grandmom stayed inside watching TV. She got into a large road, like a highway, sometimes, and was returned by stray motorists, and Grandma thought it was funny. And it kept happening! When I took the bike away, she bought another one! She could play with knives, got scissors and cut up her hair several times, would play with medication found in Grandmom's purse, she would eat nothing but candy, coke, and crap. She would take my nice, imported clothes, keep them never to be seen again, and return her in 2nd hand rags basically, usually looking like a perfect little hooker. She bought her high heels, go-go boots, etc. If I called at 10pm at night, when she was 3, Grandma would tell me "she is over at the neighbors playing, she doesn't want to come home, what can I do?"

Do you want to know what I had to do, in order to get a passport? I had to pack my bags, get on a plane, and leave Thailand, pretending that I was finished here, didn't give a crap what happened (that was fake of course) and then negotiate that I would come back, AFTER there was a passport made. I was gone almost 3 months. Even though I pay for a very good private school, Grandmom was too lazy to bother taking her to school, most of the time I was gone. When she did take her, she was flithy dirty, probably was bathing once a week. She lost a lot of weight too. Since this time, and after the kidnap part ...I had to take legal action against Grandmom with the child welfare agency here. My daughter's Thai parent, is not poor, is a city person, attended some of the best schools here. Seems not to have learned a dam_n thing, ditched school half the time, cheated on homework and tests. My Thai partner has traveled for business to Europe, maybe 7-8 times. My Thai partner, constantly hides money from me, pretends there is none, ALL the time, has tons of debts, constantly transfers property to other family members to avoid creditors or taxes, or who knows what. One day is driving a $100K BMW, and after 6 months, is driving a 20 year old car, and back and forth. My Thai partner, must earn at least $60K baht in bad months, up to $100K a month during better months. This person sees no need to contribute to school (government free school is fine) so I pay. There is a constant list of excuses why my daughter doesn't need toys, books, or clothes. Guess what? My Thai partner offers to pay, 3000 baht a month, "when there is extra money". I have never known a Thai person to conclude, there is 'extra money".

Let me just add, that I didn't even want a child. I was BEGGED for a child. Every day, for several years. There was a lot of bragging about what a nice life could be provided for this child, how the grandparents want to give 20,000 baht a month to help pay for this child, etc. That was all total bullshit. All the cliches, happened, AFTER I bought a house, and a child was on the way. Immediately the all night drinking binges started, along with sleeping all day. The getting a lover on the side, right in front of my face, started too. The phyiscal attacks when I dared to "confront any issue." One time, I was sitting on a sofa, and quietly said, "I am starting to hate you" and you know what the reward was? I got knocked unconcious! My head was later swollen up probably double the normal size. I have also been strangled, and had a few black eyes. What else could happen after all this? Well when my Mother was visiting to meet her grandchild, I got a 11pm visit from approximately 10 police, who had arrested my Thai partner, and they wanted to search my home for evidence. Guess what else? There had been previous problems with the law, for serious crimes, but due to good old corruption, my partner has always gotten off, and got off again this time. Of course I had no idea about any of that, have to wonder why there was never any money, if along with legitimate business and owning many rental properties, there was ALSO a somewhat large income coming from crime. My BIL could not stop bragging and acting like I owed him, because he helped with the corruption. I hoped my Thai parter would go to jail.

I am not young, am well into "middle age." I am not anywhere near poor, nor is my family. I am not uneducated, I have a Ph.D level education. I don't do drugs, am not a drinker, am not any kind of criminal, and not running away from debts or taxes in my country. I knew my Thai partner for 5 years before this all happened. My Thai FIL was a high government official. My brother-in-law, is the director of one of the largest Japanese companies in Thailand, and claims he has MBA from the US, although I am not sure that isn't a lie. I am sure he lived in the US for some years, and had a son born there. The lowest "status" people in this Thai family seem to be some school teachers.

I have a fair amount of control over everything now. I went into this trying to keep some control. Most of my "control" comes from the fact that I have a lot of money, and have never done anything illegal, like overstay a visa, or teach English without a work permit. Would any of you ladies suggest I should stay here? I had hoped that I wouldn't need to tell all these personal things about myself, in order to have some credibility. But the very first poster, after I wrote, called me a bigot and ignorant. I think there seems to be a cutlure on the "ladies forum" where ladies never report ANY bad things about their life or marriages. When I read the stories, I see a lot of struggle. I see a lot of couples who really have no money, even when they are in their Western countries. I see women who are concerned and working towards getting citizenship for their Thai men, but I don't see that any of you have gotten this in Thailand. I see that most of the posters, have no children, or haven't had them YET. I have NEVER seen even ONE woman suggest that they are happily married, and their husband is totally supporting them. The women are working here, and working in their home country.

I will be leaving Thailand, with my daughter, and one of the best reasons is that if I die while she is still young, I can manage to plan a life for her, where she can use my money, to pay for good private schools, for university, or just to live off my money, however, if I stay in Thailand, I can be sure that my money will be spent on cars, and bullshit, and be wasted away, while she goes to free schools and barely survives, and is no better off then many other Thai girls.

[Farang0tang]

mcp - i salute you!

[sbk]

While i am sorry you have had such a stressful time with your wife's family and salute you for taking care of your daughter I do have to say that yes, certainly it behooves us all to be careful and to protect ourselves, it seems to me that you have now decided that all Thai people are this way and this is just not true.

And tbh, not being married offers far less protection under the law than marriage.

[mcplumeria]

Well so far, I've been told that "I assume everyone marries poor Thai people" been called ignorant, and a bigot, and now "I am assuming that all Thai people are a certain way".

While I did write my post in a gender neutral tone, I thought it was fairly obvious that I am the foreign mother, married to a Thai man.

Yes, I believe IF you are a foreign man, there are some beneifts to being married or legalizing your child. IF you are a foreign woman, have a child with a Thai man, I think it would be best if you can control the situation, whatever way you need to, so that you have the freedom to leave Thailand with your child, if you want/need to.

I gave detailed reasons why. I would appreciate it, if people want to defend the other side of the argument, to also list the reasons, not just call me some names and bug off.

I don't think ALL Thai people are anything. I think you often find out what/how they are, when it could be too late to protect yourself. Since there is no test that I know of, where you can find out what/how they are or will be in 5-10 years, I suggest maximum caution. My Thai person changed drastically and immediately, once he thought he had gotten all he was going to get from me. After I bought a home, after we married, after a child was on the way. That was too late for me to change direction!

And by the way sbk, if you and I were to meet for a coffee tomorrow, and you said something that offended me, so then I grabbed a brick and smashed it over your head, and knocked you out ....what would happen?

A) nothing, police would laugh it off as a cat fight, or B) I would get a ticket for 500 baht, or C) something much worse would happen to me legally?

Well if your husband does this to you, I think the answer is A or B. How is that "more protection because you are married"?

(Well I tried to put a letter B there, but it keeps turning into this smiley face)

Edited August 11, 2010 by mcplumeria

[Carry]

Hi Carry,

I would think carefully about getting married here if I was you. The benefits are probably only an easy visa, but there are other ways to get a visa. But the potential negative side is rather large. Since you are having a baby, I can assume you are young, at least under 40, and probably are not set up for life finacially. In many cases here, having a child with the cultural differences that exist, are too much for many couples. I would be thinking about your future, in the very long term, what will you do if you want to divorce? What happens if your husband is willing to stop his child from leaving Thailand? Even if he does pay you child support, can you live off 3000 baht a month? What would happen if you two split, you can't leave Thailand, are you in a position to support yourself and a baby for the next 20 years?

Even if you are a teacher or someone that can make a living here, is it enough, is it what you would want for your child? I mean, will you want international schools? Or is goverment school okay? Will you be earning enough to set aside for retirement, will you be earning a pension, or things like this?

Many foreign men who come to live in Thailand, and end up with a child, have gotten into difficult positons. They can't leave, the mother doesn't even want to care for the child, but leaves it with grandmom in some village, etc. But I think most of them, at least have the means to support themselves, to hire lawyers, to bribe the mother for custody, whatever.

I think that marriage with a Thai man isn't going to offer you much security financially, but will put you in a very powerless situation. Children seem to cause stress for the best couples. If your man is a good guy, he can treat you well and do everything for you and a baby, that he can do if he was married to you. But if he turns out not to be that great, he can cause you a lot more problems if you are married, then he can if you keep control of the situation.

I do understand reading on that mean well and that u have a history too , I didnt meet my guy yesterday to get get pregnant over night and u make a lot of assumptions here!

I am with my man for over 6 years and we have a business and a life together in Thailand, I've been living in Thailand for many years already and I do not wish to get married for visa reasons...also my child is born outside of Thailand and will carry my last name and be in my pasport, I dont have any fears that my man will keep our baby or pay me anything in the case of us divorcing and me going back to my homecountry where I still posses a business and have a house, btw from your first response no one could know your wholes troy behind it....

Edited August 11, 2010 by Carry

[BananaLeaf]

Well so far, I've been told that "I assume everyone marries poor Thai people" been called ignorant, and a bigot, and now "I am assuming that all Thai people are a certain way".

mcplumeria, I did not call you a "bigot and ignorant". I said that your views on Thai men seemed bigoted and your comments were ignorant, and I stand by what I said based on your posts.

This is what you have said:

- the benefits (of marrying a Thai man) are probably only an easy visa

- marrying a Thai man isn't going to offer you security financially

- marrying a Thai man will put you in a very powerless situation

- most Thai people don't make a lot of money

- in most cases the Thai spouse will earn less

I am sorry for what you went through, spousal abuse is never okay, but you are a dark cloud filled with bitterness and resentment towards Thai men. Not all Thai men are like your ex-husband.

You are telling us that if we plan to have a child with a Thai man, it's better not to marry them because it's easier to kidnap our child and take them back to out home country when things don't work out. (!!!) And since child support isn't enforced and is only given when the father wants to, it's makes no difference being married or not. Sad, sad, sad.

All your advice revolves around spousal support, child support, and income, and how to avoid getting screwed over. Some divorces get downright dirty, this isn't something unique to Thai-western marriages. I think we all know of western couples who have gone through messy divorces. And if a western man doesn't want to pay child support, he won't either. He can claim bankruptcy, quit his job, leave the country, etc.

You story serves as a warning for us all, but your advice is obviously very biased given the things you went through.

[sylvafern]

mcplumeria... you are obviously a victim of abuse and that is very sad. Obviously, and understandably, the situation has had a terrible effect on you. Personally, for me, I never would have allowed any of the things described in your situation to happen to my son. When his Thai grandparents have (unknowingly) put him in a dangerous situation - e.g. have tried putting him (when young) on the handlebars of a bike or on a motorbike, I have stopped the action immediately. If a seatbelt wasn't done up, I would have stopped the car immediately. As a childs' mother, you do have the power to control the situation if you are not happy or you feel that they are in danger. If your child's father is abusive and the situation is dangerous, married or not, you can leave the country with your child. I don't know if all countries do this, but certainly most western countries allow you to get citizenship by decent and apply for a passport and you can do this from within Thailand and you don't (for my country at least) need the father's permission. No one at the airport stops you from leaving - no one has ever questioned me in all the times I've left the country with my son even though he has a Thai surname and I have a western surname. You can control the situation and being married or not married has nothing to do with this.

It's not true that people never report bad things about their lives in this forum .... I haven't been around on this site for awhile, but certainly in the past people have shared bad relationship experiences with their Thai partners just as happens in any country with partners of any nationality. Myself, I have a failed relationship with a Thai man (he cheated on me but things were already going downhill) and we have a son, now 5 years old. But just as most people in this situation in western countries, he still has a relationship with his son. He speaks on the phone almost daily and sees him every week or two. He doesn't pay child support but I wouldn't want it - I do earn way more than him and my salary is more than enough to also save several thousand dollars per month so why would I ask per a percentage of his 20,000 baht a month salary? He contributes and helps out in other ways - birthday presents, clothes, day trips to the zoo and so on.

It is ridiculous to advise someone not to get married just because of their partner's nationality. Relationships will flourish or dwindle in any country with any nationality and only the most extreme of relationships will be as bad as yours turned out to be - it doesn't mean it will happen to everyone.

Unfortunately, OP I can not advise with your original question but I do know it is pretty easy to get married before having a child.

[mike123ca]

The playing field here in Thailand heavily favor Thai people

Foreign man who marries Thai woman, he must put up 400,000 baht for visa extention.

I'm willing to show that I have this much money, but why should I moved my assets from my country to Thailand?

If the marriage goes sour, then the Thai woman will try to get access to this money with the help of Thai gov't.

Foreign woman marries Thai man. Thai man has no requirement to prove he has money to provide for his family.

Easier for Thai man to hide his assets. Foreign woman has less recourse if she has to divorce.

To be married and live in Thailand, the Thai man and woman will always have the advantage of their laws.

[Mario2008]

The playing field here in Thailand heavily favor Thai people

Foreign man who marries Thai woman, he must put up 400,000 baht for visa extention.

I'm willing to show that I have this much money, but why should I moved my assets from my country to Thailand?

If the marriage goes sour, then the Thai woman will try to get access to this money with the help of Thai gov't.

Foreign woman marries Thai man. Thai man has no requirement to prove he has money to provide for his family.

Easier for Thai man to hide his assets. Foreign woman has less recourse if she has to divorce.

To be married and live in Thailand, the Thai man and woman will always have the advantage of their laws.

Only asstes aquired during the marriage are spluit up during a divorce, provided no nuptial agreement was made dictating otherwise. Alos Thai law doesn't know any alimoney. You just split up the assets acquired during the marrige and that is it.

The rules for an extensions based on being married to a Thai might be discriminatory towards foreign males, as they are different for foreign woman married to a Thai male, (and as such probably against Thai law) but in a divorce Thais are not favoured by the law.

[mcplumeria]

Well I must say I am rather shocked how upset some of you are and there are again, some personal attacks going on. I guess all Western ladies are not the femi-nazis men here like to say we are. Thank you to Carry for explaining more about your life, you seem to be set up fine.

Banana Leaf, you keep quoting partial sentences as proof of my ignorance and bigotry, when I have fully explained, for example, what situation would make a person feel powerless. I did not claim "all Thai marriages" will do this to a person. Some of your proof, is just ridiculous. It is true that "most Thai people don't have a lot of money." Why don't you look up the per capita GDP figures, or some other numbers, that will give you a way to understand that, without feeling personally insulted?

It is usually NOT the case, that a Western man from our own countries, will easily escape child support payments. Some might try, some might play games like quiting their job, but in the end, they will usually not win that war. A person CANNOT claim bankruptcy in regards to child support or spousal support.

Another poster, writes that she doesn't get child support because she makes so much more money then her Thai man ...something I mentioned is common Banana Leaf. Common, mostly, doesn't mean 100%. But she also said that I didn't need to put up with the safety issues, like she doesn't because she is always there to stop them apparently.

I mentioned that having children in cross-cultural marriages can be extra stressful. This is one area that many farangs and Thai's disagree about, safety everything. My Thai man doesn't like to be told anything, the fact that I ask for a helmet to him, is an extra reason not to wear one! I am not with my child every minute of every day. Some of you might have learned that Thai people don't like to question/make suggestions/put their foot down, with elders, especially parents. So when your Thai grandparents are sitting in the front of the car on with baby grandma's lap, they REALLY don't want to say anything. When you insist, there is conflict. They seem to really not believe or not care, that sitting in the child seat is better. However the best I could ever get, is that people leave with my child, whatever way I say (in the seat, or with a helmet) and then as soon as I am not around, they revert back to whatever they want. My kid ALWAYS arrives home without the helmet, or sitting in the front seat.

Some people, even women, think that they don't want/don't need to be married, for a variety of reasons. Oprah Winfrey has discussed her feelings about this subject, and since she has never been married, I guess her viewpoint, isn't coming from a "bitter, resentful" place based on her bad past marriage. If you like to be married, then get married. But it is good to know what your obligations are as well as the benefits. Marriage is a legal contract.

Thailand is not known for enforcing laws well, or for a lack of corruption. We do have a helmet law, how many people wear a helmet? The fine for thowing a cigarette on the ground is 2000 baht (and this is not a country known for environmental protection practices) yet the fine for beating your wife is 500 baht. Does that make you feel particularly valued as a woman? (Now, please refrain from saying I just said, "all Thai men beat their wives" in the next post please.)

It is sort of funny that a few posters offered me a compliment for taking care of my child, when they seemed to think I was a man. Yet I can't say anything positive has been said in support of me, my life, my child, my views, even though some seem to think I was a victim of abuse. You don't have to agree with my views but some of you seem to seriously dislike me for speaking about this, and have made a lot of rude assumptions about me. I guess the "sisterhood" must be a myth, or doesn't apply unless you agree to comply with the "normal" viewpoints? I think that is sad, sad, sad.

[mcplumeria]

I would just like to add a few comments ...first of all, to each of you who say "well just because your marriage" was a disaster, turned into a hel_l, or whatever, "doesn't mean all marriages do" because I am happily married, etc. I NEVER said, ALL anything. But your ONE experience does not also mean that "ALL Thai marriages are paradise" does it? But you seem to want people to think that. Okay, well I want people to consider, THINK about the negative, not something people like to do in the heat of the moment, the passion, the new found love, and joy.

However, I have yet to see a poster on this forum, or any forum, describe how they got divorced from their Thai man, while they were financially dependent on the man, and where they had a child, and explain how that worked out well for them. (Remember I am talking about couples living in Thailand, and under Thai law, which is the key here.) I have yet to hear of ANY woman, married or otherwise, who got citizenship or PR here.

Some of you seem to be saying, because your ONE experience, is better then my ONE experience, you are RIGHT, and I am WRONG. I would say, we are equal. Except that those of you who are still in your marriage, really can't comment on how you will turn out, if and once you divorce, because that hasn't happened yet. Most of you seem not to have children yet, and those that do have children (but have not commented on this thread) seem to mostly be currently living in their Western country, working their ass off to support their kids, Thai spouse, and can't really afford to come back to Thailand because equal schooling (i.e. international schools) are way too expensive for them to afford, especially once they are all earning "Thai level money".

And I would like to remind everyone, that not ONE of you, has actually gone into the benefits of marriage to a Thai man, while you live in Thailand, and have a child. Anyone can discuss this, because one needs only logic and to know Thai law, and understand Thai culture, in order to explain what those benefits might be. You should know, that I saw this OP, and didn't respond immediately. I thought about it, felt that if I ended up discussing my personal experiences, I would be flamed, it wouldn't go over well, in general, I didn't really want to reveal that I am a woman, because I have noticed that that will probably be used against me in all posts on this website, that I will somehow end up with less credibility on every subject area of this website. But I felt sort of guilty, to stay silent. Now had the OP described her life, as she has since done, I would not have felt too worried for her.

There is one big cultural difference I have noticed in Thailand, and that is that many Thai men, seem to ask foreign women (or all women?) to have babies with them. I think some women might fall victim to misunderstanding. Having a baby, to me, is MORE then getting married. It is a life sentence that you will have to deal with this person for all or most of your life. I happen to think, that Thai men don't give a dam_n, and somehow feel more macho, or feel they will benefit, because they have a baby, more so with a farang. I am not sure why or what, but it seems that men often ask this rather quickly here. Where Western men are scared shitless of having children. Do you think that could be a difference of law, and enforcement of law, and obligations that exist or don't exist? A Western man knows he is going to be paying for his kid. Usually quite a lot as a percentage of his income. A Western man doesn't see his children as his retirement plan. A Thai man might think he won't be paying anything, yet have a retirement plan. I mean, why should they, would they pay ...when you earn $5000 a month, and they earn 20,000 baht for example. They also know their kid can go live in the farang country and earn a lot more later.

In my case, my ignorant spouse, thought he could just go to the airport, and show his marriage cert, and then fly to my country, and work, and make tons of money, while he left me and the child here in Thailand, to be supported off my passive income. Of course he never told me this before, and I seriously doubt he would earn more then he does in Thailand, but anyway, why would I marry and have child, and in my case, be financially independent, and then be okay with my companion leaving for years on end, to work? Don't even consider that any of this money would benefit anyone other than him. My spouse thought it was perfectly acceptable, that my passive income is fairly large, however my plan to live in Thailand was that I would be able to save most of this money. So, if we or HE doesn't have enough money, I should spend all that I have, AND go get a job, and take care of the kid 100% of the time. I should be willing to be earning nearly $100K (USD) a year, yet I should live, and my child should live, like some pathetic hilltribe women live, in order that HE can have the lifesyle he wants.

His mother didn't understand WHY didn't I just pay off all his loans? Loans for property, that he rents and earns from. I should just pay off 6 million baht, because I have been dating him for a few months? They wanted a baby, to "take care of him when he is old". Although we had plenty of discussions about how much work a child is, how expensive it is, he just agreed with me, yes, yes, yes, that is the only answer Thai people give, no matter what they really think. Then after having a child, my spouse told me he made a mistake, he didn't understand how much work a child was!!! When I said, but we discussed this SEVERAL times, I TOLD you that, the answer was akin to "well all farangs are stupid, don't know anything, Thai people never listen to what we say, and well I had to do it to please my parents" who also give him a lot of money all the time. My Thai spouse is in his late 40's, should not be a total idiot, yet IS clearly, a TOTAL idiot. He earns plenty of money to have a nice life here, but can't manage it. He is currently out looking to have a child with someone "new" because he sees that this hasn't worked out for him. He tells me if he has another baby, he won't be able to afford his current kid, even though he doesn't really pay for our current kid.

Seriously, if this man could control everything, my kid would be in free government school, we would be eating nothing but noodles, we would not have a single toy or book, nor internet or satellite TV, nor aircon, and he would only come home to pick up the clothes I washed and ironed for him, on his way out with new ladies. He would be wearing an all gold Rolex, driving a deluxe European car, buying $200 bottles of whiskey every night, going out for lobster, etc. I am not just being sarcastic here, this is how he manages to live, with the large benefit of being able to claim "he never has money" and "other people are always buying these things for him."

And to the poster who said she doesn't want child support, because you make so much more then him (him being 20K baht a month) I would say that you should get whatever you can, and save it for your child. Who knows what will happen in the future? Why should his kid be free because he married someone who earns so much more? Would his kid be free if he married a Thai lady? What if you are unemployed at some point, disabled from some medical condition, or you die? Even if it is only the 3000 baht a month, take that and save it for your child's university education. Why in the world would you consider it none of his responsibility? Why in the world would you consider it all your job to earn the money, do all the care-taking, all the work, and he has no responsibility? What will happen if you die? Your kid cannot control the money. If you think it is great that he takes your child to the zoo once a year, or buys a birthday gift, you have seriously low expectations, which might explain why you feel happy about this situation.

This is a culture that believes men are superior to women, who believes they are the head of the household, who believes they can have several wives, while we can only be with one man. This is also a culture, that as a foreigner, they might one day throw you out with trash that they think we are. You, by not taking any child support, are teaching your child that men don't need to be responsible. When she/he gets asked to support your Thai man as an old man, is he/she going to say "why? you never paid for anything growing up", is he/she going to expect her husband to pay for things, or expect his wife to pay everything?

I don't really care HOW much the Thai man earns, he should be paying something for his child. Yes, okay, if he was in a car accident and is disabled now, well maybe not. But you are living in this Thai world where the man is everything, let him contribute. The way it stands now, I am sure your ex-b/f or husband would be perfectly happy to have 5-10 kids with you, and as well some Western men too, if they thought they could get away with that.

[sbk]

Actually, I don't think "sisterhood" is blindly agreeing to what someone says simply because its a woman saying it. I think it behooves us to be supportive of others choices, and yes, to certainly try to inform but to also understand that everyone is in a different place and circumstances. And yes, actually I know of several women with Thai citizenship as do other members on this forum.

Additionally, I don't particularly care if you are a woman or a man taking care of your child by yourself, either way I say bravo, because I know that women don't always make great mothers just as not all men are terrific fathers. And there are plenty of instances where the woman takes no responsibility for her child in this country (and others) just as there are instances of men doing the same.

And yes, there are certainly men like your husband, and I am sorry to hear you chose a man like that, but I also know many many good Thai men who do not behave this way but they are not so easily noticeable as the bad ones. And you know why they can't be easily found? Because they are home, with their wives and kids and when they aren't home, they are working.

I think that you are right that a woman shouldn't have a child expecting the man to financially support her, but then I don't think people should have kids just because its the expected thing or because their hormones are telling them they should.

[BananaLeaf]

Banana Leaf, you keep quoting partial sentences as proof of my ignorance and bigotry, when I have fully explained, for example, what situation would make a person feel powerless. I did not claim "all Thai marriages" will do this to a person. Some of your proof, is just ridiculous. It is true that "most Thai people don't have a lot of money." Why don't you look up the per capita GDP figures, or some other numbers, that will give you a way to understand that, without feeling personally insulted?

The EU's GDP per capita is approximately 2/3rds of the USA. Therefore the statement "most people in Luxembourg earn less money compared to Americans" would be accurate to you, correct? But it's not, Luxembourg has one of the highest per capita GDPs but the numbers are skewed because it's averaged out across the whole EU. Same with Thailand. There's a great divide between the rich and the poor, though the middle class is growing larger. Comparisons of national wealth and personal income using GDP/GDI is misleading, and an economist would never say "most Thai people don't have a lot of money" based on those numbers because GDP per capita fails to take into account the unevenness of income distribution, especially in developing countries.

It is usually NOT the case, that a Western man from our own countries, will easily escape child support payments. Some might try, some might play games like quiting their job, but in the end, they will usually not win that war. A person CANNOT claim bankruptcy in regards to child support or spousal support.

Where I come from, one can still claim bankruptcy when in arrears for support. Child support and spousal support payments are preferred creditors, but are not secured creditors when it come to bankruptcy filings. So when things are settled and done with, you get the same cut as the other unsecured creditors. (pro rata distribution).

There are dead-beat parents everywhere. US parents owe millions (billions?) of dollars in back child support payments. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not going to comment on what is "usually the case", but I know it happens in Western countries just like it can happen in Thailand, enforced or not.

Some people, even women, think that they don't want/don't need to be married, for a variety of reasons. Oprah Winfrey has discussed her feelings about this subject, and since she has never been married, I guess her viewpoint, isn't coming from a "bitter, resentful" place based on her bad past marriage. If you like to be married, then get married. But it is good to know what your obligations are as well as the benefits. Marriage is a legal contract.

Marriage is a personal choice, I don't disagree with that. What I do disagree with is the reasons you mentioned not to marry Thai men specifically.

[redfish44]

I replied hastily to this thread early on with the logistics of the paperwork, but that was all I knew, and was happy I could share something for a change. As I was guenuinely interested in the OP question, I have finally got time to come back to see the developments... and oh my goodness, how this thread has presented some information.

...

You should know, that I saw this OP, and didn't respond immediately. I thought about it, felt that if I ended up discussing my personal experiences, I would be flamed, it wouldn't go over well, in general, I didn't really want to reveal that I am a woman.... But I felt sort of guilty, to stay silent. Now had the OP described her life, as she has since done, I would not have felt too worried for her.

...

There is one big cultural difference I have noticed in Thailand, and that is that many Thai men, seem to ask foreign women (or all women?) to have babies with them.

...

And to the poster who said she doesn't want child support, because you make so much more then him... I would say that you should get whatever you can, and save it for your child. Who knows what will happen in the future? Why should his kid be free because he married someone who earns so much more? Would his kid be free if he married a Thai lady? What if you are unemployed at some point, disabled from some medical condition, or you die? Even if it is only the 3000 baht a month, take that and save it for your child's university education.

...

I don't really care HOW much the Thai man earns, he should be paying something for his child. Yes, okay, if he was in a car accident and is disabled now, well maybe not.

mcplumeria - I did initially read your posts as being written by a male, because I know of a similar situation that happened to a male friend of mine in thailand.

To discover the truth and more details of what happened to you I found shocking, but am very glad you have shared this information as it has given me (and I am sure others) some things to think about. I do thank you for spending the time to post.

I am not married to my man yet in any country, although we would benefit financially if we were due to the nature of my job and my renumeration and insurance in my current job. We have discussed getting married outside of Thailand and not registerring it in Thaialnd (as many friends of ours have done), although I am the one wanting to get married here ligitimately. Then there are both our families to consider... which makes me think of getting hitched in Bali. Will see what happens.

I thought it was just my bloke wanting a baby - though he wants one cause he is crazy about kids and just really wants to be a dad (I believehim - he is from a big family, the only one without kids of his own and adores it when he is being crawled over by boistrous kids, telling stories etc even good with babies too, loves them all).

I hadn't really considered the subject you address re the 3000B and inequality in wages and so forth. But I think you are right there. It would be a good practice for both parents to put some of their income in a bank account or something for the childs education in the future.

My father actually did this for me, and although it worked out that by the time I finished school and went to uni he hadn't lost his job and I had money coming in - the few thousand dollars put aside to help me out and getting some of it every 6 months did actually make a big difference in the end.

For both parents to do this would also help them both feel responsibility and not that one was letting the other or the child down (which one might but never express).

To sylvafern: thanks for your posts too, is very interesting to read your information and know that there is someone out there who has survived divorce here and has a happier relationship with her ex.

Yet another thread that turns out a far more interesting and brain stimulating read than it seems at first.

Nothing is ever as it seems in the Ladies forum - which is just how I like it.