Is Greed Killing Thai-Saudi Ties?

[asiawatcher]

Time heals all wound. 20 years is long enough. I don't know about the Saudis, but Thais have short memories.

Yep - typical true Thai attitude. So if I murdered your father member would you let it go? And Thais have short memories? I am not sure what planet you live on here but the lights are on but no-one is home.

And the "point of law" has nothing to do with politics or greed per se. It is about a criminal act compounded by murder. And for the Thai authorities (police and Government) to continue to ignore it shows the stupidity of both authorities. Playing Ostrich and putting one's head in the sand does not solve the issues. These criminals need to spend the rest of their lives rotting in Thai jails but being they are 'connected' they won't even get house arrest and the case will most likely get dropped for 'insufficient evidence'. Thai style justice. As already mentioned the Saudi style of justice may just find its way to the families of those accused of the theft and murder.

The Saudi's have every right to be angry over this and so have the rest of the world. The Saudi's may not get back their royal gems (trinkets to the rest of us) but they will get justice one way or the other for the murder. If Thailand does not offer it - watch what happens next - Saudi style.

Edited September 28, 2010 by asiawatcher

[MEGALITHIC]

Time heals all wound. 20 years is long enough. I don't know about the Saudis, but Thais have short memories.

Saudis have very long memories indeed - and a very biblical sense of justice. They will not let this drop even if it takes 50 years.

this story will never be forgotten, it is too special in many ways,maybe they will make a movie about it some day

Possibly.

People create their own self destruction through over indulgence, lack of personal discipline and vindictiveness. Why is anyone surprised by what occurs in this country. Be detached and laugh, or weep, or both. To survive here you need to be involved but not part of it. Observe and learn and be aware. Their ways are centuries old. Forewarned is fore armed. Good luck to the saudis.

[edgarfriendly]

most people do not care either way about this.

its only that the thais are concerned about 'losing face' that its even an issue.

how does a thief not lose face??

or a liar??

it makes no sense to me.

id advise the saudis to cut the oil flow for a short while, but that wud probly encourage the theiving elites to extort some other group of less fortunates.

or even to develop oil less power generators, that are cheap enough to give away to all n sundry.

but none of that will happen.

in fact most ppl will carry on blindly

ef

[Humphrey Bear]

The Haj visa threat is a bluff. As custodian for the holy sites, the Saudis cannot block anyone wishing to fulfill HIS religious obligation (her is intentionally excluded). If the Saudis had no problem with murderers/terrorists from Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and Pakistan as pilgrims then how can they object to non implicated Thai muslims? How can someone even compare a decent law abiding fellow from Phuket that saves for a lifetime to make his pilgrimage with the Syrians that buried their countrymen alive at the massacre of Hamm?

Not quite correct.

The Saudis issue pilgrimage visas throughout the year, especially at Hajj.

But these are limited in number, because it would strain Saudi resources too much if every man and his dog decided that this is the year they want to perform Hajj or Umrah.

Thus the Saudis could happily restrict the number of visas allocated to Thailand to a mere handful, while increasing the number to Indonesia and Malaysia (both countries being very supportive of Saudi actions).

The Saudis have already cut out the Thai workers visas. A handful of Thais still work in Saudi, but at least one, personally known to me, has not left the Kingdom in the past twenty years. He values his well-paid job too much. Also when transferring money I had great problems trying to find a direct route to Thailand. Not Al Rajhi nor Al Amoudi would transfer to Thailand, so I sent my money back to UK, then transferred from there. Many restrictions apply. This is still a deep wound in Saudi affairs.

For general information, the jewellry was not just one hundred kilo package. It was sent over a period of time in small packets - sold by the family for peanuts - survival money. Some was buried and recovered when the guy completed his tour. This is what was later pawned, the guy who bought it killed in an accident, the police chief's wife seen wearing some of it, so on, so on. I don't know the full story, doubt if anyone does. I was in Libya when it happened, but have had a couple more tours in Saudi since then. Everyone seems to know about it - when locals found out where I lived they always asked why I lived there - wasn't I afriad of being robbed or killed as this was a very bad country. I always explained that there were different people in different areas, as with the rest of the world, but it was impossible to convince anyone. They all have tales of bad experience with Thai workers and I doubt that relations will ever be good. The attitude and culture of each nation is diametrically opposed to the other.

[doggie888888]

Geez, it's not that hard Somchai...outside of Thailand, most people want competency in investigations, accountability of the perpetrators and transparency that the whole thing will be investigated fairly (or appear to be) according to generally accepted rule of law.

And Abdulla...Thailand is just like in Saudi Arabia, it's not what you know but who you know, wink, wink.

For the rest of us, it's pretty bizzare so far, what with the promotion of wicked policeman and subsequent "gracious" sacrifice made by same wicked policeman.

Better than the best episodes of Lifestyles of the Rich and (In)Famous !!

[Humphrey Bear]

The questions I have about the whole mess is:

1. Why would anyone in their right mind travel to Thailand with 200 lbs of jewerly? Let alone something so precious as the Saudi Blue Diamond.

2. I understand the jewerly was returned in about week after the robbery, only to find out that they were fakes. Who is to say ehe orignals weren't fakes to beging with.

3. How long would it take to make duplicates of 200 pounds of jewerly, much longer than a week I think.

The Saudi's should get over it, it's been 20 years.

Here is a mid-nineties report from a UK newspaper.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/saudi-gems-theft-leaves-deadly-trail-in-thailand-1450865.html

I do not agree with a lot of the early part - I understood that the gardner (not janitor, as stated in Wikipedia) was sleeping with the prince and that the jewellry disappeared over a period of time - sent back to Thailand by Fed-Ex or similar carrier - and that the family were selling it piece by piece for 30 dollars an item I cannot find contempoaneous reports of this any more, although they were around in the early nineties. I was in Saudi (Al Khobar) just after the first gulf war and it was openly discussed at that time by both Saudis and ex-pats. Now a lot of info seems to have vanished from the WWW.

But the later part of the story is much as I remember it.

[Utley]

For retribution and satisfaction, and to take it to how things are REALLY done in Thailand, the Saudis should just start taking the laws into their own hands on Thai soil. Since it seems that all key players were killed 20 years ago, the Saudis should just start eliminating who they know is a part of the whole scheme, one by one. And use a very, very dull knife. If they're ever caught, just claim 'diplomatic immunity'.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe that "diplomatic immunity" apples to homicide.

[Utley]

When "respect for the rule of law" is a national joke, you have to expect the worst but that doesn't mean you have to accept it.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

Thomas Jefferson

Third President of the United States of America

Principal author of the U.S. Declaration of Independence

Edited September 28, 2010 by Utley

[toenail]

After living in Saudi for over 10 years, I think Saudi Arabia is doing the Thais a favor by not opening up "normal" diplomatic relationships. Most Saudis treat their workers from other countries like scum --especially in the service jobs (clerks, cleaners, office workers..). Yet, the Saudis will act like they're "holier than thou" -- actions mean more than words. (Look and see how they behave in Nana district!)

[Humphrey Bear]

After living in Saudi for over 10 years, I think Saudi Arabia is doing the Thais a favor by not opening up "normal" diplomatic relationships. Most Saudis treat their workers from other countries like scum --especially in the service jobs (clerks, cleaners, office workers..). Yet, the Saudis will act like they're "holier than thou" -- actions mean more than words. (Look and see how they behave in Nana district!)

As was pointed out earlier, there was billions lost in remittances when all te Thai workers visas were cancelled or not renewed.

Not just the families, but the country as a whole has lost this income, and it will not be recovered.

With regard to treatment, it depends on the individual employer. Domestic workers are at great risk, others not so much. The Filipino factory assembly hands, construction supervisors and so on are quite well looked after. Filipina nurses are mostly treated fairly, although many complain. Domestic workers - I have assisted maybe 200 to reach their consular premises in Jeddah and Khobar during my several tours of duty there, so that they could later take advantage of government amnesties. Abused, passports seized, not paid, no days off, anything that happens in Hong Kong and Singapore amplified ten times. But these girls are still sent out by the OWF with very little warning, just to bring the dollars back to PI.

Maybe the Thai government doesn't need this income source.

[hoaker]

Time heals all wound. 20 years is long enough. I don't know about the Saudis, but Thais have short memories.

Yep - typical true Thai attitude. So if I murdered your father member would you let it go? And Thais have short memories? I am not sure what planet you live on here but the lights are on but no-one is home.

And the "point of law" has nothing to do with politics or greed per se. It is about a criminal act compounded by murder. And for the Thai authorities (police and Government) to continue to ignore it shows the stupidity of both authorities. Playing Ostrich and putting one's head in the sand does not solve the issues. These criminals need to spend the rest of their lives rotting in Thai jails but being they are 'connected' they won't even get house arrest and the case will most likely get dropped for 'insufficient evidence'. Thai style justice. As already mentioned the Saudi style of justice may just find its way to the families of those accused of the theft and murder.

The Saudi's have every right to be angry over this and so have the rest of the world. The Saudi's may not get back their royal gems (trinkets to the rest of us) but they will get justice one way or the other for the murder. If Thailand does not offer it - watch what happens next - Saudi style.

The only reason why they act like ostriches with their head in the sands is because they are GUILTY of STEALING and hope that the Saudi's disappear with the case. I hope they don't.

[Mitker]

Time heals all wound. 20 years is long enough. I don't know about the Saudis, but Thais have short memories.

I personally hope the Saudis won't forget soon.

Not that I have any particular sympathy for that country but because it will help Thailand to learn that not every wrong doing can be simply eluded. Growing up in maturity/sense of responsibility would be a plus.

At all levels.

[mrtoad]

Time heals all wound. 20 years is long enough. I don't know about the Saudis, but Thais have short memories.

Saudis have very long memories indeed - and a very biblical sense of justice. They will not let this drop even if it takes 50 years.

Agreed, and why should they. This is not just about the actual diamond, this is about the murders of diplomats and a continual cover up by Thai authorities. Seems that Thailand thinks that by burying it's head in the sand it will go away, well it hasn't - and looking at it, it wont.

[mca]

The question now is, when will the two Kingdoms face up to the fact that they cannot undo past crimes, especially now that all leads have gone cold?

Quite possibly one of the dumbest statements I've read in a while that's made it to print.

[Tokay]

This opinion piece should be a national embarrassment.

If I had a baht for everything that should be a national embarrassment, I'd have more money than Thaksin.

[rotary]

One point seldom talked about is the fact that the biggest loser are the Thai workers who did work in Saudi before the theft and later after the theft the lost of jobs in Saudi that could have been for Thai workers. The workers lost out and in the end Thailand lost out big because most of the wages earned in Saudi would have been sent back home. Looks like a case where many people lost.

[KeyserSoze01]

"The ties between Thailand and Saudi Arabia should improve, but it doesn't look like that will happen soon if the two Kingdoms choose to dwell in the past."

What a freakin' joke... The stolen jewelry scandal is something that simply won't go away... You don't STEAL from a Saudi royal and expect them to forget it... Couple that with all the years the Thais have been dodging & weaving, trying to skirt their responsibility in the matter... Then you have Saudi envoys MURDERED during the investigation... Then there is the video that surfaced showing one of the jewels around the neck of someone who cannot me mentioned, and you wonder why the Saudi's are pissed off...

Edited September 29, 2010 by Mario2008
anti Thai rant deleted

[Johan78]

"The ties between Thailand and Saudi Arabia should improve, but it doesn't look like that will happen soon if the two Kingdoms choose to dwell in the past."

What a freakin' joke... The stolen jewelry scandal is something that simply won't go away... You don't STEAL from a Saudi royal and expect them to forget it... Couple that with all the years the Thais have been dodging & weaving, trying to skirt their responsibility in the matter... Then you have Saudi envoys MURDERED during the investigation... Then there is the video that surfaced showing one of the jewels around the neck of someone who cannot me mentioned, and you wonder why the Saudi's are pissed off...

Well said.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Mario2008
anti Thai rant deledted from quote

[tomyummer]

For retribution and satisfaction, and to take it to how things are REALLY done in Thailand, the Saudis should just start taking the laws into their own hands on Thai soil. Since it seems that all key players were killed 20 years ago, the Saudis should just start eliminating who they know is a part of the whole scheme, one by one. And use a very, very dull knife. If they're ever caught, just claim 'diplomatic immunity'.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe that "diplomatic immunity" apples to homicide.

'Diplomatic immunity' as in "I didn't do it, I'm denying it, you can't arrest me or hold me in jail, you can't storm the embassy to try and pull me out, I'm going to flee the country when you're not watching". That diplomatic immunity.

I don't suggest they do it in broad daylight in front of cameras and THEN claim 'diplomatic immunity'. That would be too Thai.

[witold]

Is this how Saudi princess roll?  With 200lbs of gold and 20mil+ in jewels?  

Or did the guy have some sort of jewelry business?  

[Englander]

After living in Saudi for over 10 years, I think Saudi Arabia is doing the Thais a favor by not opening up "normal" diplomatic relationships. Most Saudis treat their workers from other countries like scum --especially in the service jobs (clerks, cleaners, office workers..). Yet, the Saudis will act like they're "holier than thou" -- actions mean more than words. (Look and see how they behave in Nana district!)

Agreed, the masses of Indian Filipinos working together in factories then transported to their digs will be safe enough despite it being a bleak existence, but id fear for anyone coming from Asia and working on their own in the family home of a wealthy Saudi.

[yellow1red1]

After living in Saudi for over 10 years, I think Saudi Arabia is doing the Thais a favor by not opening up "normal" diplomatic relationships. Most Saudis treat their workers from other countries like scum --especially in the service jobs (clerks, cleaners, office workers..). Yet, the Saudis will act like they're "holier than thou" -- actions mean more than words. (Look and see how they behave in Nana district!)

Agreed, the masses of Indian Filipinos working together in factories then transported to their digs will be safe enough despite it being a bleak existence, but id fear for anyone coming from Asia and working on their own in the family home of a wealthy Saudi.

same i said in another Saudi missing gems thread,,, better to be a slave in own country than someplace far away, mebbe. less rapes of the workers at home country.

doing the world a favor, too

It's a good thing for the world 2 countries with poor records on justice, free speech, corruption,,,

[yellow1red1]

There again, given the identity of the woman seen wearing the blue diamond in public several times following the theft, perhaps the stance of successive Thai governments is understandable and cannot be questioned too deeply.

You nailed it Changian!!!

With a thumb tack; "allegedly" wore the "alleged" blue diamond.

1. in public and from photos no positive ID is possible, whether of the Hope Diamond, the largest blue diamond in the world, 45 c, housed at the Smithsoniian, to one of the fake Hopes in Disney Princess dress up dolls.

2. Show some proof, plzzz, the 50 c Blue even existed. Many diamond expert websites, diamond history sites and even the websites dedicated to blue diamonds don't even mention it.

It Would be bigger than the Hope, if it did exist... so mebbe the Saudis kept it a secret, eh? but 20 years after the 'caper', they still don't list this, even larger, Blue

3. Search 'pictures of Saudi blue diamond' to see,,, you will get many results, only they show pictures of the Hope diamond..plz post an 'official picx of this saudi blue

you can believe some arabian prince owned the largest blue diamond, secretly, i want to see docs

edit; Google images Saudi Blue diamond;;; shows mostly pics of the Hope DUH/HOO!?

http://www.google.ca...iw=1291&bih=533

There are other top ranked blues mixed in, but not even 1 of alleged Saudi blue 50c World's largest;;;;

funny that?

This blue exists on TV forum and wikipedia crime report but NOT on wikipedia diamond sites or any other diamond website...

they should have 30 c!!! imho

Edited September 28, 2010 by yellow1red1

[geriatrickid]

The Haj visa threat is a bluff. As custodian for the holy sites, the Saudis cannot block anyone wishing to fulfill HIS religious obligation (her is intentionally excluded). If the Saudis had no problem with murderers/terrorists from Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and Pakistan as pilgrims then how can they object to non implicated Thai muslims? How can someone even compare a decent law abiding fellow from Phuket that saves for a lifetime to make his pilgrimage with the Syrians that buried their countrymen alive at the massacre of Hamm?

The Saudis have the right to limit entry to the Kingdom - and they do. There are limits on the numbers allowed to make the pilgrimage each year by nationality - the holy cities simply cannot accomodate all who would wish to perform Haj. So if a Thai cannot enter, it makes room for an Indonesian or Nigerian etc. Saudis are also not afraid to limit Haj visas for political reasons - ask the Iranians.

Nope. Sorry, that is not how it works. The Ministry of the Haj has consistently respected the agreement that sees every country allotted a number of Haj visas based upon (muslim)population. Currently. The formula is 0.1 per cent of a population, or 1,000 pilgrims per million people. It is politically difficult for Saudi Arabia to place an outright ban on or to restrict the Haj for specific countries because it is a once-in-lifetime religious requirement for every financially and physically able Muslim. Yes, there were restrictions placed upon some Iranian Haj pilgrims but that was due to past violent protests undertaken by shia troublemakers and the iranian government's alleged tacit complicity. The typical Thai muslim is peaceful and not given to the same violent outbursts as the Iranian agitators. Bear in mind that the Saudis require that certain customs be respected. One of these customs is that there is to be no veneration of shrines, graves or similar items. The Iranians have a habit of engaging in very loud "prayers" before such objects and of disturbing others.

More specifically, I draw your attention to the following recent statement from the Saudi charge d'affaires to Thailand, Nabil Ashri,: "Saudi Arabia - under no circumstances associates its relations with any country, with allowing or forbidding Muslims from performing their fifth pillar of Islam of Hajj." The Saudis have stated very clearly that they will not discriminate against Thai nationals. This position was conveyed in the Nation article of last week.

http://www.nationmul...s-30138624.html

Edited September 29, 2010 by geriatrickid

[junglist]

Is greed killing Thai-Saudi ties? No i would say the Thai police killed it 20 years ago. Wait till the Saudi stop visa for Mecca then well see more bombs in BKK.

[LomSak27]

bruceeverett posted

The questions I have about the whole mess is:

1. Why would anyone in their right mind travel to Thailand with 200 lbs of jewerly? Let alone something so precious as the Saudi Blue Diamond.

2. I understand the jewerly was returned in about week after the robbery, only to find out that they were fakes. Who is to say ehe orignals weren't fakes to beging with.

3. How long would it take to make duplicates of 200 pounds of jewerly, much longer than a week I think.

The Saudi's should get over it, it's been 20 years.

If this is for real and not a troll do a little homework before you post nonsense - jotman has a timeline for the blue diamond affair, start there.

[chantorn]

Is greed killing Thai-Saudi ties? No i would say the Thai police killed it 20 years ago. Wait till the Saudi stop visa for Mecca then well see more bombs in BKK.

The Saudi dare not do that. Religion should not be involved.

But close down the BKK office will to the Southern Thai a favour. Because it is only 600km to KL to apply for visa, while it is 1,000 km to BKK to do the same.

[virtualtraveller]

I think the Saudis have been extremely patient, Thailand is well aware of how much it's lost in foreign revenue from the loss of 200,000 workers in Saudi, but they will never admit that it all adds up to more than the value of the jewels sitting in one policeman's pocket.

The real disgrace here is the police, their inability to solve the crime, their foot dragging in investigating, their involvement in the cover up and deaths, and crucially the inability or unwillingness of successive govts (even the strong TRT one) to discipline a law enforcement agency that has made Thailand the laughing stock of the interpol.

[geriatrickid]

Is greed killing Thai-Saudi ties? No i would say the Thai police killed it 20 years ago. Wait till the Saudi stop visa for Mecca then well see more bombs in BKK.

The Saudi dare not do that. Religion should not be involved.

But close down the BKK office will to the Southern Thai a favour. Because it is only 600km to KL to apply for visa, while it is 1,000 km to BKK to do the same.

There will be no traveling to KUL for a Haj visa because those visas are no longer permitted. The Haj visa must be applied for in the country of residence. Just ask all the Egyptians and Quataris that were blocked last Haj. The revised visa process ensures that legitimate pilgrims get the visas and not people with good connections or fat wallets.

[LomSak27]

virtualtraveller posted

think the Saudis have been extremely patient, Thailand is well aware of how much it's lost in foreign revenue from the loss of 200,000 workers in Saudi, but they will never admit that it all adds up to more than the value of the jewels sitting in one policeman's pocket.

The real disgrace here is the police, their inability to solve the crime, their foot dragging in investigating, their involvement in the cover up and deaths, and crucially the inability or unwillingness of successive govts (even the strong TRT one) to discipline a law enforcement agency that has made Thailand the laughing stock of the interpol.

It comes back to haunt Thailand at the moment they claim they want to extradite a former PM, have Interpol arrest him, or have countries voluntarily give him up. It affects more than just the Saudis who want justice for their murdered nationals, or the 250,000 Thai workers who once sent back 3.4 BN a year in remittances. It affects how seriously other governments will take requests made by the Thai government. Unfortunately it seems that Thailand is incapable of resolving it and so the only thing they can do is pretend it never happened and hope foreign governments forget about it. Good Luck Mr Abhisit