Gay Vs "Tom"

[petergawin]

Can anyone explain why it is generally accepted, and ignored, when you see a beautiful girl and a "Tom" together but if gay guys walk together everyone points them out?

I am not an "Acting" gay guy but live with my BF and have done for 6 years.

I live near to CR university and there are ,literally, 100's of girls and "Toms" pass my house every day.

[Ijustwannateach]

For one thing, it's not conspicuous for two girls to walk with each other in any circumstances- that's just the way things are in almost every culture- it's expected, in fact, for reasons of modesty and safety, in many places- women are not recognised for a whole complex of reasons as being as 'independent' as men culturally. The fact that one woman may be gay also doesn't necessarily mean the other woman is (and simply having short fashionable hair doesn't guarantee sexuality either).

Now, what do you mean by 'seeing two gay guys' walking together? There are plenty of occasions where two Thai guys walk together. In most circumstances, even in Thailand, I think it would be difficult to determine without getting to know them if they were gay (individually or both) or even a gay couple. What I imagine you may be referring to is the obviously over-the-top 'gotta be out' fashion queens with weirdo gel-gooped hair and the current trendy clothes, perhaps holding hands in a not-just-friends kind of way, camping it up, sashaying, etc. In that case, it is NOT so usual (though becoming less uncommon) to see two guys (straight or gay) doing that and so the attention they attract is from their behaviour, not their sexuality. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but the goal is to attract attention- and they sure do accomplish that.

Furthermore, the casual hand-hold between male friends is generally for children, people you've known a long time, or family members, and is usually practiced between Thais- Thais who see foreigners publicly holding hands with a Thai (also an unusual sight, relatively speaking) will know what it means and the sight will attract attention.

[kurnell]

Seems almost every girl has a Tom friend at some time in her young life. Very strange

[tombkk]

Seems almost every girl has a Tom friend at some time in her young life. Very strange

Not strange at all. Many boys have a gay phase too, when they discover their sexuality. Some stick with it, others cherish the experience but move on.

That's Bangkok though. In the provinces, some people who are really gay may marry and beget children due to peer pressure. It's the same in every country.

[SweatiePie]

That's Bangkok though. In the provinces, some people who are really gay may marry and beget children due to peer pressure. It's the same in every country.

I may have completely misunderstood you, Tom, but are you saying that in Bangkok (or any other city) its easier to fit in socially or at work if you're gay while "in the provinces" (rural areas) there's more peer pressure to fit in so its more likely that gays in the country will "marry and beget children" than those in the cities? And that you think that's "the same in every country"?

Somehow I don't think so, at least in Thailand. Family pressure may vary based on ethnic origin, and this may be relevant given the considerably higher numbers of Thai Chinese in the city than in the country, but that's all and in my own experience Thai Chinese are no more (or less) accepting of gay children than Tais. In the work place I would have thought that the opposite, if anything, would apply. In the rural areas the majority are self-employed or employed on piece-work with little structured promotion or employment conditions, while in the city employment and promotion is far more structured, whether it is in industry or in commerce, and the pressure to fit in and conform is consequently far higher.

Your idea may be right in certain circumstances in other countries, where someone in the Castro in San Francisco or, to a lesser extent, Le Marais in Paris may be under less pressure to conform than someone in Twin Forks Mississippi, but in "every country", including Thailand? I don't think so.

[tombkk]

That's Bangkok though. In the provinces, some people who are really gay may marry and beget children due to peer pressure. It's the same in every country.

I may have completely misunderstood you, Tom, but are you saying that in Bangkok (or any other city) its easier to fit in socially or at work if you're gay while "in the provinces" (rural areas) there's more peer pressure to fit in so its more likely that gays in the country will "marry and beget children" than those in the cities? And that you think that's "the same in every country"?

You have understood me correctly.

Somehow I don't think so, at least in Thailand. Family pressure may vary based on ethnic origin, and this may be relevant given the considerably higher numbers of Thai Chinese in the city than in the country, but that's all and in my own experience Thai Chinese are no more (or less) accepting of gay children than Tais. In the work place I would have thought that the opposite, if anything, would apply. In the rural areas the majority are self-employed or employed on piece-work with little structured promotion or employment conditions, while in the city employment and promotion is far more structured, whether it is in industry or in commerce, and the pressure to fit in and conform is consequently far higher.

Your idea may be right in certain circumstances in other countries, where someone in the Castro in San Francisco or, to a lesser extent, Le Marais in Paris may be under less pressure to conform than someone in Twin Forks Mississippi, but in "every country", including Thailand? I don't think so.

OK, I will qualify: Replace "every country" with "every country I know".

I know many gay Thais who act very straight when going to their upcountry home towns, and many have explained to me that in the village, nobody should know. I keep saying that if they let the village know that they are gay, nothing bad will hapen - so I am agreeing with you, but they don't. It's OK if you don't believe me, but I believe my friends. Cannot verify it either way.

First time I went to the Castro, they were overdoing it so much I thought I'd rather become straight. And I also heard that at their workplace in a downtown bank, nobody shold know they were gay. - That's many decades ago, though. Now it's it's a fun place, I was in SF earlier this year with my BF.

[SweatiePie]

I know many gay Thais who act very straight when going to their upcountry home towns, and many have explained to me that in the village, nobody should know. I keep saying that if they let the village know that they are gay, nothing bad will hapen - so I am agreeing with you, but they don't. It's OK if you don't believe me, but I believe my friends. Cannot verify it either way.

Not saying I don't believe you Tom - I do believe that you believe those "gay Thais" you know, but it may be a bit of a Catch 22 as you can't "verify" for yourself how your Thai friends behave when in their home towns without going with them, which may rather give the game away.

I would be interested to know if you have ever been with them, and what happened, just as I would be interested to know if pauleddy had ever been to the village where his b/f said that gays had rocks thrown at them in another thread.

My point is that it is well nigh impossible for Thais to be openly gay in Bangkok, particularly for any length of time, with no-one in their home town/village knowing anything about it - word travels fast here and the one thing we like to do is gossip!

On the other hand it is unavoidable that a lot of Thais who have farang b/f's or are on the "scene" in Bangkok prefer that the farangs don't go to their home towns with them, for a variety of reasons, so rather than say they don't want them to go they simply present an excuse that a farang can understand.

I'm not saying that this is so in your case, or that you are wrong, just that I find pauleddy's idea that Thai gays get stoned in their home town, and yours that there's more "peer pressure" on gays to conform in the country than the city, and that anyone can get away with being openly gay in the big city with no-one at home being any the wiser to be rather curious ones. I wasn't brought up in a village, but having visited villages and village schools on a regular basis with PDA for a couple of decades its certainly not my experience or that of any other PDA volunteers I know.

[tombkk]

I know many gay Thais who act very straight when going to their upcountry home towns, and many have explained to me that in the village, nobody should know. I keep saying that if they let the village know that they are gay, nothing bad will hapen - so I am agreeing with you, but they don't. It's OK if you don't believe me, but I believe my friends. Cannot verify it either way.

Not saying I don't believe you Tom - I do believe that you believe those "gay Thais" you know, but it may be a bit of a Catch 22 as you can't "verify" for yourself how your Thai friends behave when in their home towns without going with them, which may rather give the game away.

I would be interested to know if you have ever been with them, and what happened, just as I would be interested to know if pauleddy had ever been to the village where his b/f said that gays had rocks thrown at them in another thread.

My point is that it is well nigh impossible for Thais to be openly gay in Bangkok, particularly for any length of time, with no-one in their home town/village knowing anything about it - word travels fast here and the one thing we like to do is gossip!

On the other hand it is unavoidable that a lot of Thais who have farang b/f's or are on the "scene" in Bangkok prefer that the farangs don't go to their home towns with them, for a variety of reasons, so rather than say they don't want them to go they simply present an excuse that a farang can understand.

I'm not saying that this is so in your case, or that you are wrong, just that I find pauleddy's idea that Thai gays get stoned in their home town, and yours that there's more "peer pressure" on gays to conform in the country than the city, and that anyone can get away with being openly gay in the big city with no-one at home being any the wiser to be rather curious ones. I wasn't brought up in a village, but having visited villages and village schools on a regular basis with PDA for a couple of decades its certainly not my experience or that of any other PDA volunteers I know.

You are right that for those of my gay friends from upcountry, if they brought me along, it would be a bad day for Schroedinger's Cat. However, they live perfectly happy gay lives in Bangkok. If any gossip goes back to their village, and unlike you I wouldn't be too sure about that it would, it's not the problem. The way it works, as long as you behave "correctly" in the village, people will behave correctly towards you. There may be a rumour that you are gay in Bangkok, but as long as you don't force this on anybody in our village, that's OK.

That said, my BF is from Bangkok, and I am well integrated into my in-law family. At family reunions, the only problem is the "pity they won't have kids" thing.

[SweatiePie]

At family reunions, the only problem is the "pity they won't have kids" thing.

I'm sure that won't stop you trying, though!

You may be surprised at just how effective the bush telegraph is in Thailand. I've lost count of the number of times I've been giving presentations and talking to schools or villages up-country and someone has said (in public!) "my brother's in Bangkok and he's gay but he doesn't think anyone here knows" and the only reaction is laughter. On the one hand it really isn't as big a deal as some people are afraid it may be, and on the other hand many Thais are worried (with some justification) that if they went home with a farang boyfriend everyone would assume that they had been "working". It isn't a problem for most of those that have been working, or for those in the upper income bracket (whose farang boyfriends may even be working!), but it can be a real worry for those in the "lower-middle" income bracket. Many farangs that seldom venture outside the city don't appreciate this, so they assume the worst.

(edit: and thanks for replying so reasonably)

Edited November 1, 2010 by SweatiePie

[tombkk]

At family reunions, the only problem is the "pity they won't have kids" thing.

I'm sure that won't stop you trying, though!

You may be surprised at just how effective the bush telegraph is in Thailand. I've lost count of the number of times I've been giving presentations and talking to schools or villages up-country and someone has said (in public!) "my brother's in Bangkok and he's gay but he doesn't think anyone here knows" and the only reaction is laughter. On the one hand it really isn't as big a deal as some people are afraid it may be, and on the other hand many Thais are worried (with some justification) that if they went home with a farang boyfriend everyone would assume that they had been "working". It isn't a problem for most of those that have been working, or for those in the upper income bracket (whose farang boyfriends may even be working!), but it can be a real worry for those in the "lower-middle" income bracket. Many farangs that seldom venture outside the city don't appreciate this, so they assume the worst.

(edit: and thanks for replying so reasonably)

That's a nice story about the boy saying that his brother in Bangkok thinks that nobody knows he's gay. Of course I always only knew "the brother in Bangkok" and his view of it. Now that you mention the other side's view, his family may in fact now - and love him nevertheless.

Bringing a farang home indeed has the taste of working, especially if home is a poor farming village. In another thread in another forum, were this was discussed with regards to girls rather than boys, I suggested (as you do above as well) that it may be a class thing rather than a Thia vs farang thing. A poor girl anywhere in the world finds a rich boyfriend (from a foreign country or not) will have to deal with this gossip.

My experience with farang-Thai gay couples of more-or-less the same class (let's say middle or upper-middle class) is that the Thai is not assumed not be working.

[SweatiePie]

My experience with farang-Thai gay couples of more-or-less the same class (let's say middle or upper-middle class) is that the Thai is not assumed not be working.

I think there may be an extra "not" in there, Tom.

If so, I think we are actually in agreement (surprising though that may be!):

If the Thai is poor (working class) then he is usually assumed to be "working", doesn't care, and very probably is - at least at the start of a relationship, as I have known some such relationships grow into deep, genuine love. The farang friend's status is immaterial as even a working class farang who can afford to holiday in Thailand is still a relatively good catch.

If the Thai is middle income (middle class) then he is terrified of being thought of as "working", particularly by his parents, and particularly if he has moved from the country to the city; he will probably take all steps to avoid this, such as carrying on working even if he doesn't have to or avoiding taking his farang friend home to the village at all costs. The farang's status is probably more important to him (and his family) than his status is to the farang.

If the Thai is wealthy (upper class) he doesn't need to care about any of this. There is no possibility of his being thought of as "working" by anyone. If the farang is socially acceptable that's a bonus, but if not then few are going to say anything anyway.

The funny thing is that it seems to be much the same when the situations are reversed:

If the farang is poor (working class) then its usually assumed that his Thai g/f or b/f was "working", he doesn't care, and they probably were.

If the farang is middle income (middle class) then he is terrified of being thought of as having a "working" (or ex-working) Thai g/f or b/f so he will try to make sure that his Thai g/f or b/f has a respectable middle-class job.

If the farang is wealthy (and/or upper class) he doesn't need to care either. The idea that his Thai b/f or g/f was "all that he could get" is a non-starter and even if they were "working" then it is highly unlikely that anyone will say so (at least to his face!).

[tombkk]

My experience with farang-Thai gay couples of more-or-less the same class (let's say middle or upper-middle class) is that the Thai is not assumed not be working.

I think there may be an extra "not" in there, Tom.

If so, I think we are actually in agreement (surprising though that may be!):

You are right about that extra "not". Delete the one of your choosing, and you'll get my meaning.

While we had a bad start, I am not surprised any more that we are in agreement. Some recent posts showed that.

I also agree with the rest of your post, for some odd reason.

Edited November 8, 2010 by tombkk

[SweatiePie]

Very "odd" - or "not"!

[jombom]

It seems to me that Toms and Femmes (is this the correct word?) are accepted everywhere in Thailand.

As to the OP's proposition, well I don't know, but as an outsider, they also seem to be accepted.

Perhaps the OP is self-conscious ??

[Ijustwannateach]

A post has been deleted.

Henceforth, it will be considered 'flaming' and against the rules to post general insults against gay couples simply on the basis of age difference. You are free, if it is not off-topic in the thread, and not expressed as a personal attack, to express your disapproval of such matches- but not to refer to either of the persons involved in them as 'perverted,' 'dirty,' etc.