Thailand A 'Vibrant Democracy'

[Hitch22]

Nirmal Ghosh

The Straits Times

Publication Date : 27-10-2010

Thailand continues to 'move towards a more participatory democracy', foreign minister Kasit Piromyasaid yesterday (October 26), as the country's powerful army chief issued a new warning of imminent arrests for people accused of attacking the monarchy.

In written answers to The Straits Times, Kasit said: "Itis important to take a step back and look at the big picture. The diversity of views being expressed by different groups shows that Thailand is a vibrant democracy and an open society."

Unless you are perceived by Gen Prayuth to be one of the bad people where you must be prosecuted, no matter what you do. Hope this definition of "bad people" is made clear.

"There are only two groups of Thai people: the good and the bad, normal people and outlaws. The bad and outlaws must be prosecuted, no matter what they do, and they can later defend themselves by legal means…".

What's your point? In most countries the bad i.e. law breakers, should be prosecuted and punished. It doesn't always happen consistently, that's the problem

Yes, in most countries the army chief tells the people was is appropriate and what not. Totally normal + good PR work.

A complete lie. In a true democracy, the army chief shuts up and doesn't stage a coup every 5 years on average over the last 30 yers.

That is the truth .

[richieudon]

Vibrant Democracy? How many coups? Gov only if the army and elite agrees? Corruption rife.

I nearly fell of my chair laughing.

I couldn't agree more. Who writes this cr@p?

[hayden5650]

Why is everyone so caught up with this democracy fad?

I've never been a fan of democracy and never will.

[craigt3365]

Only fair to let you know that following the suggestion of mod's I have looked at the ignore function and put you on my list. This will be my last reply to you. Have fun

I'm seconding you on that one. It's a feature I didn't know existed...and would never have thought to use it until now. Thanks for the suggestion!

To paraphrase Ben Franklin a vibrant democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

For sure. It is a vibrant democracy! Crazy maybe, but at least this isn't Burma. The reds would all be dead by now. So it is great they get to protest and express their agenda, just wish they would avoid the violence. I did like what the army guy said here:

------------------------------------------------------------

"Violent incidents and the use of divisive tactics to instil hatred among opposing groups' was regrettable '(but) perhaps part of the process of learning how to become a more mature democracy".

"I think the true debate about the future in Thailand is how we can move towards becoming a full-fledged democracy with a liberal, multi-party parliamentary system," he said. "The real challenge lies in how we can instil society with a deeper understanding on the ideals and key values of democracy such as the rule of law, good governance, accountability and respect for human rights."

------------------------------------------------------------

I think he is right on. Pretty much every poster here is from a country who in the past has had these same kinds of protests and riots. His last sentence is great, if he can follow up on it. If achieved, Thailand will be a much better place. I'm sure we can all wish him luck with that. :jap:

Unfortunately, the person who said that was not the "army guy" aka Gen.Prayuth, Army Chief, He's a lot more hard core. It was the Thai Foreign Minister, Kasit Piromya. He's had a few words to say on democracy before, after the PAD occupation of the airport (which he declared was a lot of fun) he stated "Look at it [the PAD protests] as pushing the process of democratisation forward." When asked about what role the Army played in bringing his party to power he replied," I don't know ". And there's plenty more where that came from.

Thanks...I stand corrected!

[Renbe]

Democracy is just a word. Its meaning can be spun in every direction possible. Democracy in the US of A is completely different than in European countries. The only common denominator

is than in "democracies" people are allowed to vote. Does this make Iran, China, Thailand, Zimbabwe and Russia a democracy? Of course it does. Looking at the USA elections in 2000, which eventually were decided,

according to party lines, by the Supreme Court in a 5-4 vote, one could also fall off one's chair laughing in amazement. Besides, what is there to choose in the US of A, one party represented by an elephant

and one party represented by a donkey. And no matter which animal wins, the result always stays the same, nothing ever changes in the USA policies.

I think Thailand is doing a great job and people on this forum posting all sorts of negative comments about Thai democracy should reconsider if they want to continue

to live in this country. I am in general surprised by the amount of negative views that foreigners living in Thailand post on this forum about Thailand. If you do not like it here, why are you still here?

[selftaopath]

Vibrant democracy?

Surely something has been lost in translation.

A recent coup, airport occupation, occupation of Government House, political interference of the courts, anarchy on the streets of Bangkok etc etc.

Is this really what Thais believe is a vibrant democracy?

Democracy in Lack of Sanctions (LOS)? hel_l a person can not even experience quiet because there are no police/ or representation. Where is an example of individual rights to live with some peace and quiet? This is the land of the lawless.

[geriatrickid]

The Ban Ki Moon stuff has been a well orchestrated diplomatic coup by the government. Amsterdam and his paymaster will have to head into overdrive now in the PR game.

Be interesting to see how the Arisamon thing pans out.

How is this a diplomatic coup? The restriction on public gatherings and the restriction on the expression of political views is hardly anything to gush over.

The fact of the matter is that the Moon visit has gone unnoticed by most Thais. People are far more worried about the flooding and their own lives than the visit of the leader of the corrupt and inefficient UN. Even if Mr. Thaksin was still the great ruler and there were no floods, the average Thai would not care let alone even know who Ban Ki Moon is. I can guarantee that if you were to stop 10 foreigners in Pattaya today and asked them who Ban Ki Moon was, you would get 8 blank looks. Ask 10 Thais in Khon Kaen or Hat Yai or Chiang Rai and you would get 9 blank looks.

[craigt3365]

Vibrant democracy?

Surely something has been lost in translation.

A recent coup, airport occupation, occupation of Government House, political interference of the courts, anarchy on the streets of Bangkok etc etc.

Is this really what Thais believe is a vibrant democracy?

Democracy in Lack of Sanctions (LOS)? hel_l a person can not even experience quiet because there are no police/ or representation. Where is an example of individual rights to live with some peace and quiet? This is the land of the lawless.

I hear ya, but I think this has more to do with corrupt police who really don't care rather than democracy. But understand you for sure!

[craigt3365]

The Ban Ki Moon stuff has been a well orchestrated diplomatic coup by the government. Amsterdam and his paymaster will have to head into overdrive now in the PR game.

Be interesting to see how the Arisamon thing pans out.

How is this a diplomatic coup? The restriction on public gatherings and the restriction on the expression of political views is hardly anything to gush over.

The fact of the matter is that the Moon visit has gone unnoticed by most Thais. People are far more worried about the flooding and their own lives than the visit of the leader of the corrupt and inefficient UN. Even if Mr. Thaksin was still the great ruler and there were no floods, the average Thai would not care let alone even know who Ban Ki Moon is. I can guarantee that if you were to stop 10 foreigners in Pattaya today and asked them who Ban Ki Moon was, you would get 8 blank looks. Ask 10 Thais in Khon Kaen or Hat Yai or Chiang Rai and you would get 9 blank looks.

I think you would get 10 blank looks. I loved the survey they did a few years ago in the US. Asked people who the VP was. It was an amazing number of people who didn't even know.

[Payboy]

Kasit = What's he smoking?

[jayjay0]

What they should be saying is Thailand 'could be' a 'Vibrant Democracy'. As it stands, it is far from it. Think widespread corruption and the all-important face and value of perceived hierarchy (an Asia-wide trait). Unless they get over this, grow up, and look at the next man as being equal, it'll never achieve that moniker.

In stead of trying to discredit the government why don't you try to help them. According to transparency international they have become less corrupt in the last two years.

Now don't get me wrong I realize with the degree of corruption they were given to deal with it did not take much effort to do that. The point is they did do something and are continuing to do something to make the country less corrupt.

The problem with TV is it has a bunch of ex pat's who really don't know how good they have it. Thailand is far from the least corrupt but it is cleaner than well over half the countries in the world. I understand that if you have never lived in let us say Burma it is very hard to conceive of corruption being worse than here but that is your lack of understanding and has nothing to do with reality. Besides did you move here becouse you like corruption and they did not have enough back home?

[jayjay0]

Democracy is just a word. Its meaning can be spun in every direction possible. Democracy in the US of A is completely different than in European countries. The only common denominator

is than in "democracies" people are allowed to vote. Does this make Iran, China, Thailand, Zimbabwe and Russia a democracy? Of course it does. Looking at the USA elections in 2000, which eventually were decided,

according to party lines, by the Supreme Court in a 5-4 vote, one could also fall off one's chair laughing in amazement. Besides, what is there to choose in the US of A, one party represented by an elephant

and one party represented by a donkey. And no matter which animal wins, the result always stays the same, nothing ever changes in the USA policies.

I think Thailand is doing a great job and people on this forum posting all sorts of negative comments about Thai democracy should reconsider if they want to continue

to live in this country. I am in general surprised by the amount of negative views that foreigners living in Thailand post on this forum about Thailand. If you do not like it here, why are you still here?

Great post.

I once asked that question of two people who fit nicely into the Thai's are no good thinking. One said he couldn't afford to live back home in Lake Tahoe. Like I was supposed to think that was the cheapest place in the states to live.

The other said because this is where his kids are. Can't figure out how he managed to stay here long enough to get kids. Of course both are nothing but complainers.

Like I said great post.

[jayjay0]

Vibrant democracy?

Surely something has been lost in translation.

A recent coup, airport occupation, occupation of Government House, political interference of the courts, anarchy on the streets of Bangkok etc etc.

Is this really what Thais believe is a vibrant democracy?

Democracy in Lack of Sanctions (LOS)? hel_l a person can not even experience quiet because there are no police/ or representation. Where is an example of individual rights to live with some peace and quiet? This is the land of the lawless.

And your reason for being here

[Renbe]

sorry, double post

Edited October 28, 2010 by Renbe

[phetaroi]

Vibrant democracy or Progressive democracy?

Neither. I might gulp hard and say "fragile democracy". How about "something approaching democracy"? A "feeble democracy"? A "sham democracy"?

[Renbe]

Vibrant democracy?

Surely something has been lost in translation.

A recent coup, airport occupation, occupation of Government House, political interference of the courts, anarchy on the streets of Bangkok etc etc.

Is this really what Thais believe is a vibrant democracy?

Democracy in Lack of Sanctions (LOS)? hel_l a person can not even experience quiet because there are no police/ or representation. Where is an example of individual rights to live with some peace and quiet? This is the land of the lawless.

I hear ya, but I think this has more to do with corrupt police who really don't care rather than democracy. But understand you for sure!

Talking about corruption and land of the lawless, I would like to draw your attention to the recently published corruption perception index 2010 http://www.transpare...ndices/cpi/2010

/results

The USA tumbled from its traditional place in the Top 20 of least corrupt countries to an embarrassing 22nd place. Thailand is on the 78th place, not far from countries like Italy 67th, Romania and Bulgaria 73rd,

and on par with China, Greece, Peru, with which it shares the 78th place. Still Thailand is much less corrupt than Egypt, Mexico, Sri Lanka on the 91st place, not to mention the more than 50 countries ranked above the 100th place. So on a global perspective, Thailand seems to be doing rather well. Last year, Thailand was ranked 10th of 23 countries in Asia and 87th of 178 countries in the world, showing some improvement.

Regarding the "land of the lawless" I would like to refer once more to countries like USA and UK who invade other countries without legal backing, thus involving themselves in illegal wars, killing and maiming millions of people. Of course Thailand has its own problems with 'lawlessness', but those are insignificant compared to the lawless actions of "developed" nations like the USA, the UK, and their backers Australia and most of the NATO countries. I don't even want to get into the lawlessness of Israel, which is in a class of its own.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Renbe

[Renbe]

Vibrant democracy or Progressive democracy?

Neither. I might gulp hard and say "fragile democracy". How about "something approaching democracy"? A "feeble democracy"? A "sham democracy"?

Please, before gulping too hard, define democracy, and share your thoughts on which countries you consider true democracies, and if possible, the reasons why you consider those countries true democracies

[craigt3365]

Vibrant democracy?

Surely something has been lost in translation.

A recent coup, airport occupation, occupation of Government House, political interference of the courts, anarchy on the streets of Bangkok etc etc.

Is this really what Thais believe is a vibrant democracy?

Democracy in Lack of Sanctions (LOS)? hel_l a person can not even experience quiet because there are no police/ or representation. Where is an example of individual rights to live with some peace and quiet? This is the land of the lawless.

I hear ya, but I think this has more to do with corrupt police who really don't care rather than democracy. But understand you for sure!

Talking about corruption and land of the lawless, I would like to draw your attention to the recently published corruption perception index 2010 http://www.transpare...ndices/cpi/2010

/results

The USA tumbled from its traditional place in the Top 20 of least corrupt countries to an embarrassing 22nd place. Thailand is on the 78th place, not far from countries like Italy 67th, Romania and Bulgaria 73rd,

and on par with China, Greece, Peru, with which it shares the 78th place. Still Thailand is much less corrupt than Egypt, Mexico, Sri Lanka on the 91st place, not to mention the more than 50 countries ranked above the 100th place. So on a global perspective, Thailand seems to be doing rather well.

Regarding the "land of the lawless" I would like to refer once more to countries like USA and UK who invade other countries without legal backing, thus involving themselves in illegal wars, killing and maiming millions of people. Of course Thailand has its own problems with 'lawlessness', but those are insignificant compared to the lawless actions of "developed" nations like the USA, the UK, and their backers Australia and most of the NATO countries. I don't even want to get into the lawlessness of Israel, which is in a class of its own.

And your home country is perfect? Please share...

[Renbe]

"And your home country is perfect? Please share..."

No country is perfect, and the question regarding the country in which I was born bears no significance whatsoever on what I wrote.

Please stay on topic instead of asking presumptuous questions.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Renbe

[sarahsbloke]

Government in Thailand is no business of white people.

We should all butt out ......... unless one of the parties offers us citizenship and the ability to buy land.

A Thai person asked me "Do I love Thailand" last week, my answer "Difficult to love a country that doesn't want me living here"

[craigt3365]

"And your home country is perfect? Please share..."

No country is perfect, and the question regarding the country in which I was born bears no significance whatsoever on what I wrote.

Please stay on topic instead of asking presumptuous questions.

That was my point...no country is perfect and you were also off topic by bring up the USA invading other countries. What has that got to do with this thread? If you want this to be discussed, there are other threads for that. OK?

[Renbe]

Government in Thailand is no business of white people.

We should all butt out ......... unless one of the parties offers us citizenship and the ability to buy land.

A Thai person asked me "Do I love Thailand" last week, my answer "Difficult to love a country that doesn't want me living here"

Please set an example and get out of Thailand as soon as possible!

[Renbe]

"And your home country is perfect? Please share..."

No country is perfect, and the question regarding the country in which I was born bears no significance whatsoever on what I wrote.

Please stay on topic instead of asking presumptuous questions.

That was my point...no country is perfect and you were also off topic by bring up the USA invading other countries. What has that got to do with this thread? If you want this to be discussed, there are other threads for that. OK?

My post about the USA was a reaction to someone calling Thailand a lawless country. The point I tried to make was that Thailand, compared to the real lawless countries like the USA, UK and other WASP countries, is not at all so lawless. I do not know of Thailand invading countries on the other side of the world and starting illegal wars, for which, if the Nuremberg criteria would be applied, the president and prime minister of those countries, would be hanged.

On the matter of corruption, according to the latest survey the USA is becoming more corrupt and Thailand less corrupt. So imho Thailand is on the right path and the USA is on the wrong path. That's why I like to live in Thailand and not in the USA. And that is why I oppose foreigners living in Thailand and spewing venom all over the country in which they now live. If you do not like it, get out and move somewhere where you do like it.

Therefor both my points were on topic. Not being a perfect country is something else than being imperialistic and trying to rule the world by invading country after country and killing millions of people. Fyi, the country in which I was born is very stable in the top 10 of least corrupt countries. That does not mean that I am proud of my "home country", on the contrary, I left it partly because it aided and abbedded the USA in its criminal enterprises, and I refuse to help finance these military actions that are both illegal and immoral.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Renbe

[chantorn]

There can never be Democracy with Thaksin running the country.

Was it a coup that put him in power? Or was it the other way round? I am confuse.

[craigt3365]

"And your home country is perfect? Please share..."

No country is perfect, and the question regarding the country in which I was born bears no significance whatsoever on what I wrote.

Please stay on topic instead of asking presumptuous questions.

That was my point...no country is perfect and you were also off topic by bring up the USA invading other countries. What has that got to do with this thread? If you want this to be discussed, there are other threads for that. OK?

My post about the USA was a reaction to someone calling Thailand a lawless country. The point I tried to make was that Thailand, compared to the real lawless countries like the USA, UK and other WASP countries, is not at all so lawless. I do not know of Thailand invading countries on the other side of the world and starting illegal wars, for which, if the Nuremberg criteria would be applied, the president and prime minister of those countries, would be hanged.

On the matter of corruption, according to the latest survey the USA is becoming more corrupt and Thailand less corrupt. So imho Thailand is on the right path and the USA is on the wrong path. That's why I like to live in Thailand and not in the USA. And that is why I oppose foreigners living in Thailand and spewing venom all over the country in which they now live. If you do not like it, get out and move somewhere where you do like it.

Therefor both my points were on topic. Not being a perfect country is something else than being imperialistic and trying to rule the world by invading country after country and killing millions of people. Fyi, the country in which I was born is very stable in the top 10 of least corrupt countries. That does not mean that I am proud of my "home country", on the contrary, I left it partly because it aided and abbedded the USA in its criminal enterprises, and I refuse to help finance these military actions that are both illegal and immoral.

Wow...you really need to relax. Leaving your home country, which is in the top 10 of the least corrupt countries in the world, because it did something regarding an alleged crime the USA committed...unreal...and then moved here? Wow...

I never spew venom about Thailand. Search my post history here and you will see. I just moved here with my family and have purchased a home. I've been coming here for years and now it is my home. I love Thailand. Like many others, I know it can do better...and that's what I wish for and discuss here on TV. Corrupt? Every country in the world is corrupt...some less than others. But they are all corrupt.

Sure, the US went back a few notches...and that is sad, but hardly earth shattering. Same with Thailand's move up. But I agree with you that Thailand is, hopefully, moving in the right direction. The upcoming elections will be interesting to watch for sure.

[SergeiY]

Vibrant democracy?

Surely something has been lost in translation.

A recent coup, airport occupation, occupation of Government House, political interference of the courts, anarchy on the streets of Bangkok etc etc.

Is this really what Thais believe is a vibrant democracy?

Democracy in Lack of Sanctions (LOS)? hel_l a person can not even experience quiet because there are no police/ or representation. Where is an example of individual rights to live with some peace and quiet? This is the land of the lawless.

I hear ya, but I think this has more to do with corrupt police who really don't care rather than democracy. But understand you for sure!

Talking about corruption and land of the lawless, I would like to draw your attention to the recently published corruption perception index 2010 http://www.transpare...ndices/cpi/2010

/results

The USA tumbled from its traditional place in the Top 20 of least corrupt countries to an embarrassing 22nd place. Thailand is on the 78th place, not far from countries like Italy 67th, Romania and Bulgaria 73rd,

and on par with China, Greece, Peru, with which it shares the 78th place. Still Thailand is much less corrupt than Egypt, Mexico, Sri Lanka on the 91st place, not to mention the more than 50 countries ranked above the 100th place. So on a global perspective, Thailand seems to be doing rather well. Last year, Thailand was ranked 10th of 23 countries in Asia and 87th of 178 countries in the world, showing some improvement.

Regarding the "land of the lawless" I would like to refer once more to countries like USA and UK who invade other countries without legal backing, thus involving themselves in illegal wars, killing and maiming millions of people. Of course Thailand has its own problems with 'lawlessness', but those are insignificant compared to the lawless actions of "developed" nations like the USA, the UK, and their backers Australia and most of the NATO countries. I don't even want to get into the lawlessness of Israel, which is in a class of its own.

well not every country can be number one. And the position in this list like to say 22 of 178 countries or 78 of 178 countries say actually no so much.

Better just look at the score like United States got 7.1 of possible on a scale from 10 (highly clean) to 0 (highly corrupt). and Thailand scored 3.5. The 'last' #178 in the list got 1.1, meanwhile the highest score actually achieved was 9.3

follow this link

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/interactive

and you will get a better visualisation how 'everyone' scored.

And don't forget what these ranking is about the 'perceived levels of corruption in the public sector'

[phetaroi]

Please, before gulping too hard, define democracy, and share your thoughts on which countries you consider true democracies, and if possible, the reasons why you consider those countries true democracies

I think your question is irrelevant to what we are discussing.

This forum is about Thailand. Not America. Not Great Britain. Not France. Not any other country.

I'm American. I would have no problem discussing with you or anyone else problems or issues related to America. As with all countries, we are imperfect and sometimes we do wrong and shameful things. Racism, decimation of the Indian culture, Sarah Palin, George Bush, Jimmy Carter, drug addiction, the current political climate. I could go on and on. But this forum is about Thailand and whether or not it's a "vibrant democracy".

In the midst of the Red Shirt riots and arson, Thailand still tried to present itself as a modern democracy.

In the midst of death via bombs and beheadings in the deep south, Thailand still tries to present itself as a modern democracy.

In the midst of a culture built on (among other things) bribery and favoritism, Thailand still tries to present itself as a modern democracy.

To put it mildly, I question that concept, as do many others.

[phetaroi]

Government in Thailand is no business of white people.

We should all butt out ......... unless one of the parties offers us citizenship and the ability to buy land.

A Thai person asked me "Do I love Thailand" last week, my answer "Difficult to love a country that doesn't want me living here"

Government in Thailand is as much the business of westerns, as is (for example) government in America the business of Thais. And over an 8 year period there were no shortage of Thais who were willing to criticize George Bush (not that he and America didn't deserve the criticism). As a government on the world stage, Thailand does critique government actions by other countries. Thailand's economy is dependent on export to "white people"'s countries. Thailand constantly dwells on luring "white people" to its tourism features. We have every right of free speech to comment on Thailand. And it's funny, that you mention something that has been asked of me any number of times by Thai people -- "Do you love Thailand" -- if they feel free to ask it (and they certainly do), then I reserve the right to fully answer their question.