Harry Roberts Is My Friend.

[Englander]

EVERYTHING CHANGES, NOTHING CHANGES!

Grudge match: Fans v Police - Football fans say they are herded and harassed by police. Officers say they are fighting hooliganism in what is becoming a bitter face-off - Francis Beckett The Guardian.

On Saturday 5 January 2008, Cliff Augur went to watch Chelsea play football, as he has done most Saturdays for 40 years. He had with him his two teenage sons and two of their friends.

After the match, one of his sons' friends, Charlie, went into a pub to use the toilet. Waiting outside, Augur heard shouting. Suddenly the area was full of police with dogs, who formed a cordon round the pub. Augur phoned Charlie, who said the police would not let him out. Augur politely appealed to them. "I told them that he was a 15-year-old boy for whom I was responsible," says Augur, but he was curtly rebuffed, and the police started pushing people. "I was knocked into my younger son, John. The dog handler allowed the dog sufficient rein so that it could get at my other son, James. I saw the dog sink his teeth into James's lower leg. It was obvious he was in pain. I shouted to the police: 'That's my son, let him go.'"

Augur kicked out at the dog. The animal released James and turned on him, sinking its teeth into his leg. He fell to the floor. "I saw the dog in my face. I was horrified and frightened."

The dog was pulled away, and two or three policemen seized him. "I was on the floor with them holding me down. I felt a tremendous kick to my right side underneath my armpit. I was gasping for breath. I really thought I was going to die. A few seconds later I felt someone standing on my back, holding me down with their foot.

"I managed to look to my right and I saw two policemen holding James on the floor. He was shouting: 'Help me, Dad, help me.' A policeman punched him in the face while he was being held down on the floor. That will live with me for ever. It really upset me that I could not help my son."

Augur was in dreadful pain throughout the long period he spent in the police station, but was given no treatment apart from a painkiller. When fingerprints, photographs and other formalities had been completed, he and his son were taken to hospital, where he was found to have four broken ribs and a punctured lung.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission initiated an investigation, and passed its file to the Crown Prosecution Service. The CPS did not prosecute the police officer named by Augur because, according to IPCC commissioner Nicholas Long, "the investigation could not identify conclusively the officer concerned".

Is this an unfortunate one-off incident in the long police battle against football hooliganism? Not according to the director of Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti: "I have come to be horrified at some of the treatment that law-abiding fans have experienced. We are in danger of demonising anyone who goes to football matches." Long agrees: "I am surprised that we see as few complaints and referrals as we do from policing of football matches. The police should not imagine that the majority of people attending football matches are bent on violence."

Liberty became involved after the Football Supporters' Federation approached Chakrabarti in November 2008, on behalf of 78 Stoke City fans.

"We were going to watch Stoke play in Manchester," says Lyndon Edwards. "Last time we'd been there, we'd been herded about like cattle at Manchester Piccadilly station. So we decided to meet in a pub in Irlam [to the south-west of the city]."

There was no trouble. Nonetheless, police with dogs swooped on the pub and ordered the supporters on to a coach back to Stoke. Section 27 of the Violent Crime and Disorder Act 2006 allows police to move people out of an area. "They gave me a form to sign and they'd filled it in for me and it said I was involved in alcohol-related violent disorder. I wouldn't sign it because it wasn't true," says Edwards. "They said, 'Either sign it or you'll go in the cells.' So I signed it but I wrote on it that I didn't agree with it."

It took two hours to process everyone, and probably another hour to drive to Stoke. Edwards and the other supporters were not allowed to get off the coach, even after pleading to use a lavatory. By the time the coach got to Stoke, it was swimming in urine.

This summer, nearly two years later, Greater Manchester police paid out £184,000 in compensation – more than £2,000 each – to the 78 supporters. Its deputy director of legal services, Sian Williams, says: "At the time the use of the powers was new and we have since taken steps to improve our understanding of the legislation to try to prevent this from happening again."

But if lessons have been learned, it is not obvious to Malcolm Clarke, chair of the FSF. "There's a culture developing among parts of the police force that you can do what you like to football supporters because, unlike protesters, they won't complain," he says.

James McKenna, 23, is both a Liverpool fan and a protester – he's one of the leaders of Spirit of Shankly, which campaigned against the club's ownership by the Americans Tom Hicks and George Gillett. On 13 December last year, he shouted "Yanks out" at a limousine entering the Anfield Road gates, which he believed was carrying the owners. "There was a peaceful crowd doing everything the police asked," he says. "But the moment I shouted, they threw me against the wall and said they were arresting me – for racism."

He was placed in a cell for five hours, then charged with a public order offence. An officer claimed McKenna had shouted: "fuc_king Yankee bastards out." McKenna continues to deny this. He was eventually released and told that one of his bail conditions would be that he could not go to Liverpool matches or into the city centre. His arrest was reported in the Liverpool Post, and he feared he might lose his job – he is a civil servant. In the end, the FSF found him a barrister and all the charges were dropped.

Under the Football Spectators Act 1989, police can ask magistrates for an order banning a supporter from football matches for three to 10 years. Anthony MacManus, 40, was waiting at Durham airport to fly to the World Cup this summer when two special branch officers approached and told him that two police officers from Middlesbrough had said he was a threat. They held him for six hours in a cell then took him before a magistrate, but the mysterious Middlesbrough officers were still not there. The magistrate confiscated his passport and deferred the hearing. Four more followed, all adjourned because the officers failed to appear. At last, on 24 August, the police withdrew their application for a banning order. MacManus has lost the £715.60 he paid for his ticket to Johannesburg, and has spent more than he can afford on solicitors' fees. A ceiling fixer, he was lucky not to lose his job when his name appeared in the papers – he kept it only because his boss goes to football with him and knows he has never been involved in violence. "I've followed England all over the world and never been involved in any trouble," says MacManus.

A spokesperson for Durham constabulary says: "Acting on initial information received, a decision was taken to prevent him from travelling and he was detained. Having made further inquiries, a decision was taken to apply for a football banning order. The police subsequently requested that the application be withdrawn, following a review of the case."

Football supporters everywhere come up with endless stories like these. Chakrabarti says: "They have grown used to being herded en masse. If you want people to behave well, treat them with respect."

Andy Holt, assistant chief constable for South Yorkshire, who heads the UK Football Policing Unit, says the tactic works: "It is hard-hitting, but it is proportionate – and it works. There are occasions when mistakes are made." Football violence has declined, he says, and banning orders are a key to that.

Clarke thinks the reasons for the decline have as much to do with changes in society and general football culture. The FSF supports the police in dealing with violence, but, "If the police say, 'Here are 10 banning orders, six of which are justified and four that are not,' they are likely to regard it as a job well done because they have banned half-a-dozen hooligans. We say that the fundamental principles of British justice have been denied to the other four supporters.http://www.true-faith.co.uk/tf/features.nsf/0/05886BCB9039E2B6802577CC0039B9E7?OpenDocument

[smokie36]

Reminds me of a train journey I took up to Manchester a couple of years ago one Sunday morning.....sitting alone in the First Class cabin....police with sniffer dogs got on the train at Wigan came through the cabin at least a dozen strong......searched me my bag and spent 10 mins quizzing me about what I was doing travelling....who I was talking to on my computer etc.....

Unpleasant to say the least particularly as I was stone cold sober and on my way to work. Totally out of all proportion.

Edited November 1, 2010 by smokie36

[StevieH]

not really news that, football supporters have been treated like scum for years by the authorities and all the gentrification and money injected into the match in the past 15 years or so has done little or nothing to change that.

not in any other sport or collective public pastime are viewers / supporters / attendees treated anything like the way the police are allowed to treat football supporters.

[Mossfinn]

not in any other sport or collective public pastime are viewers / supporters / attendees treated anything like the way the police are allowed to treat football supporters.

To be fair, has any other collective pastime attracted such numbers or poor discipline?

[bifftastic]

I've had enough beatings off the boys in blue in various towns and cities all over England. These days it's quite mild compared to what they used to get up to. It certainly led to a lot of violence, I mean, if you know you're going to get a hiding then you're not just going to stand still and take it are you?

Having said that we were no angels either, violent times, I'm glad they're over.

There's a 'new breed' coming up though, they don't care about cameras and getting nicked, losing their jobs etc. They're too young to care about that.

I reckon we'll see a rise in football violence in the UK over the next few years, similar circumstances to the late 70's early 80's.

Only this time, it will be televised live!

Maybe CNN will 'embed'; reporters with the football unit or even the thugs themselves!

[MSingh]

We've all been there id' guess, all been a victim probably of heavy handed policing at Football Matches too..

Worst in my book ar ethe West Midlands, best are Cardiff by a mile..

But even them W Mids are not a patch on some of the stuff i've experienced abroad personally, Italy for starters & those poxy, poxy Caribineiri..

[somtampet]

We've all been there id' guess, all been a victim probably of heavy handed policing at Football Matches too..

Worst in my book ar ethe West Midlands, best are Cardiff by a mile..

But even them W Mids are not a patch on some of the stuff i've experienced abroad personally, Italy for starters & those poxy, poxy Caribineiri..

My mates son,age 18 got done by Manc coppers in the incident reported.The manc police hate Stoke fans and there have been more incedents recently.

[smokie36]

To give some sense of proportion in more than 15 years of working in hospitals up and down the UK the only serious incident I've been involved in was after a fight in Eccles 5 years ago on Derby day when a couple of 'fans' were stabbed.

Both survived although one had a wound protruding into his chest. Lucky that laddie.

[Englander]

I wouldnt mind if i was allowed to be hit back (or first), it seems there is a bit of an uprising against police brutality back home with a few recent blatant cases, and them getting away with murder time after time.

But as for violence at football i started going 1980/1ish when i was a wee lad this includes many away games when violence was meant to be at its peak, and the only fight ive ever seen was 2 English fighting each other at the WC in France, which only involved 1 very good punch.

[StevieH]

But even them W Mids are not a patch on some of the stuff i've experienced abroad personally, Italy for starters & those poxy, poxy Caribineiri..

fuc_king outrageous over there. been herded down small streets and alleys lined with opposing fans for them to slash at legs and arsecheeks as you get funnelled past. scandalous what they're allowed to get away with.

[MSingh]

We've all been there id' guess, all been a victim probably of heavy handed policing at Football Matches too..

Worst in my book ar ethe West Midlands, best are Cardiff by a mile..

But even them W Mids are not a patch on some of the stuff i've experienced abroad personally, Italy for starters & those poxy, poxy Caribineiri..

My mates son,age 18 got done by Manc coppers in the incident reported.The manc police hate Stoke fans and there have been more incedents recently.

Yes Fella das ist true..

A West Ham Fan gone done badly earlier this Year by half adozen or so Stoke on ( yeah ON ) a Train out of Picadilly when we were at Old Trafford, he came out of a Toilet & go battered befor ethe Train pulled out & the Stoke got off the Train before it even pulled out of Picadilly..

Makes you wonder what it's all about really....

I've had numerous things at Football, but 6 on 1 ????????

Anyway, yeah Manc OB nicked them i believe via the CCTV..

Always probs when Man Ure go to Stoke too..

[MSingh]

But even them W Mids are not a patch on some of the stuff i've experienced abroad personally, Italy for starters & those poxy, poxy Caribineiri..

fuc_king outrageous over there. been herded down small streets and alleys lined with opposing fans for them to slash at legs and arsecheeks as you get funnelled past. scandalous what they're allowed to get away with.

Slovakia's fun too Stevie & on a par if not worse, went out there in 2001 i think it was, when Owen scored the winner !!!!!!!!!!!

[JacknDanny]

Got to say there is a lot of <deleted> on this thread.

I cannot say what is happening right now in UK, but in the 70s, I followed my team home and away.

Surprise surprise, I wasnt arrested once or harrassed by the police a single time. I didnt miss a single game home or away for 2 seasons.

In the 80s I was on the other side of the fence, one of the boys in blue, doing both Old Trafford and Maine Road.

There was fighting in those days at almost every match. Invariably drunken hooligans intent on causing trouble.... nothing to do with the Police.

You think the Police are out looking for trouble?? You guys are off your heads!!!

And to the poster who thinks that these reports of Police aggression ( if true) justify supporting a Police murderer,I hope I dont meet you in person, and you dare repeat this Harry Roberts sh!te........... Tosser

[carmine]

Got to say there is a lot of <deleted> on this thread.

I cannot say what is happening right now in UK, but in the 70s, I followed my team home and away.

Surprise surprise, I wasnt arrested once or harrassed by the police a single time. I didnt miss a single game home or away for 2 seasons.

In the 80s I was on the other side of the fence, one of the boys in blue, doing both Old Trafford and Maine Road.

There was fighting in those days at almost every match. Invariably drunken hooligans intent on causing trouble.... nothing to do with the Police.

You think the Police are out looking for trouble?? You guys are off your heads!!!

And to the poster who thinks that these reports of Police aggression ( if true) justify supporting a Police murderer,I hope I dont meet you in person, and you dare repeat this Harry Roberts sh!te........... Tosser

I can think of countless occasions, especially at away games when the behaviour of the police was a disgrace. Almost thug like.

Incidentally, the police at Maine road i remeber as being particularily unpleasant.

Edited November 3, 2010 by carmine

[MSingh]

You think the Police are out looking for trouble?? You guys are off your heads!!!

I can only assume that City weren't in the same Division as the West Midlands Teams when you did your 2 Season Hoem & Away stuff then Jack, or doubt you visited the West Mids Grounds in the 90's even..

[Englander]

And to the poster who thinks that these reports of Police aggression ( if true) justify supporting a Police murderer,I hope I dont meet you in person, and you dare repeat this Harry Roberts sh!te........... Tosser

Frightening ... and it was true if you read the post and it is police BRUTALITY, not aggression as you so politely put it

Edited November 3, 2010 by Englander

[JacknDanny]

And to the poster who thinks that these reports of Police aggression ( if true) justify supporting a Police murderer,I hope I dont meet you in person, and you dare repeat this Harry Roberts sh!te........... Tosser

Frightening ... and it was true if you read the post and it is police BRUTALITY, not aggression as you so politely put it

Whats frightening?

And how do you know it was true, a friend of a friend of a friend told you???

I am not condoning Police brutality, but I am certainly not going to sit here while pricks like you hero worship cop killers.

Harry Roberts was a cold blooded killer, shot unarmed Police , with no remorse.

You glorifying a tw@t like that shows the type of person you are

[Englander]

And to the poster who thinks that these reports of Police aggression ( if true) justify supporting a Police murderer,I hope I dont meet you in person, and you dare repeat this Harry Roberts sh!te........... Tosser

Frightening ... and it was true if you read the post and it is police BRUTALITY, not aggression as you so politely put it

Whats frightening?

And how do you know it was true, a friend of a friend of a friend told you???

I am not condoning Police brutality, but I am certainly not going to sit here while pricks like you hero worship cop killers.

Harry Roberts was a cold blooded killer, shot unarmed Police , with no remorse.

You glorifying a tw@t like that shows the type of person you are

Jack youre the prick who mouths off behind his laptop .. it shows the type of person you are.

[somtampet]

We've all been there id' guess, all been a victim probably of heavy handed policing at Football Matches too..

Worst in my book ar ethe West Midlands, best are Cardiff by a mile..

But even them W Mids are not a patch on some of the stuff i've experienced abroad personally, Italy for starters & those poxy, poxy Caribineiri..

My mates son,age 18 got done by Manc coppers in the incident reported.The manc police hate Stoke fans and there have been more incedents recently.

Yes Fella das ist true..

A West Ham Fan gone done badly earlier this Year by half adozen or so Stoke on ( yeah ON ) a Train out of Picadilly when we were at Old Trafford, he came out of a Toilet & go battered befor ethe Train pulled out & the Stoke got off the Train before it even pulled out of Picadilly..

Makes you wonder what it's all about really....

I've had numerous things at Football, but 6 on 1 ????????

Anyway, yeah Manc OB nicked them i believe via the CCTV..

Always probs when Man Ure go to Stoke too..

Saw that on a stoke message board,and it was disgusting,all stokies were saying what idiots they were.However it is coming to light that maybe they wernt stoke fans,and the police have spread this story

[JacknDanny]

And to the poster who thinks that these reports of Police aggression ( if true) justify supporting a Police murderer,I hope I dont meet you in person, and you dare repeat this Harry Roberts sh!te........... Tosser

Frightening ... and it was true if you read the post and it is police BRUTALITY, not aggression as you so politely put it

Whats frightening?

And how do you know it was true, a friend of a friend of a friend told you???

I am not condoning Police brutality, but I am certainly not going to sit here while pricks like you hero worship cop killers.

Harry Roberts was a cold blooded killer, shot unarmed Police , with no remorse.

You glorifying a tw@t like that shows the type of person you are

Jack youre the prick who mouths off behind his laptop .. it shows the type of person you are.

Well i will make you this promise. Next time you are out and about in town on one of these football nights give me a shout. I will come from behind my laptop, look you in the eye and then you give me a rendition of your heroes song. Moron.

I dont mind having banter with anyone about football, but when you start trying to glorify a scum bag cop killer then to me you are the lowest of the low, and I would be MORE than happy to say that to your face. Suggest you grow up.

[Englander]

Well i will make you this promise. Next time you are out and about in town on one of these football nights give me a shout. I will come from behind my laptop, look you in the eye and then you give me a rendition of your heroes song. Moron.

I dont mind having banter with anyone about football, but when you start trying to glorify a scum bag cop killer then to me you are the lowest of the low, and I would be MORE than happy to say that to your face. Suggest you grow up.

And so the name calling continues ... bit of advice though Rambo, you shouldnt go around offering trouble these days unless youre willing to be in Mr Roberts league of badness.

[DoubtingThomas]

Ah, I see this thread reveals, finally, the true quality of TV members. Both sides of this "argument".

Sad, very sad. I am ashamed to be a Brit.

[Englander]

Ah, I see this thread reveals, finally, the true quality of TV members. Both sides of this "argument".

Sad, very sad. I am ashamed to be a Brit.

Fairplay to you but you must have been aware that TV wasnt am awakening to the heights of British culture.

[JUDAS]

This thread's too tough for me

[JacknDanny]

Well i will make you this promise. Next time you are out and about in town on one of these football nights give me a shout. I will come from behind my laptop, look you in the eye and then you give me a rendition of your heroes song. Moron.

I dont mind having banter with anyone about football, but when you start trying to glorify a scum bag cop killer then to me you are the lowest of the low, and I would be MORE than happy to say that to your face. Suggest you grow up.

And so the name calling continues ... bit of advice though Rambo, you shouldnt go around offering trouble these days unless youre willing to be in Mr Roberts league of badness.

Maybe your comprehension of English is not upto scratch?

Where am I going around offering trouble?

Just suggested to look me up and say to my face what nonsense you are saying on here.

I am more than happy to repeat face to face everything I have said on here to you in person, NOT behind a computer screen.

[MSingh]

My mates son,age 18 got done by Manc coppers in the incident reported.The manc police hate Stoke fans and there have been more incedents recently.

Yes Fella das ist true..

A West Ham Fan gone done badly earlier this Year by half adozen or so Stoke on ( yeah ON ) a Train out of Picadilly when we were at Old Trafford, he came out of a Toilet & go battered befor ethe Train pulled out & the Stoke got off the Train before it even pulled out of Picadilly..

Makes you wonder what it's all about really....

I've had numerous things at Football, but 6 on 1 ????????

Anyway, yeah Manc OB nicked them i believe via the CCTV..

Always probs when Man Ure go to Stoke too..

Saw that on a stoke message board,and it was disgusting,all stokies were saying what idiots they were.However it is coming to light that maybe they wernt stoke fans,and the police have spread this story

Really Som, is there any truth in that then ??

& has anyone been nicked do you know ??

[MSingh]

Ah, I see this thread reveals, finally, the true quality of TV members. Both sides of this "argument".

Sad, very sad. I am ashamed to be a Brit.

Ashamed to be British, because of a couple of Posts on a Public Forum by Members that have generally emigrated ??

Bwahahaha grow up & grow a pair of Ball for Christs sakes..

[Englander]

Well i will make you this promise. Next time you are out and about in town on one of these football nights give me a shout. I will come from behind my laptop, look you in the eye and then you give me a rendition of your heroes song. Moron.

I dont mind having banter with anyone about football, but when you start trying to glorify a scum bag cop killer then to me you are the lowest of the low, and I would be MORE than happy to say that to your face. Suggest you grow up.

And so the name calling continues ... bit of advice though Rambo, you shouldnt go around offering trouble these days unless youre willing to be in Mr Roberts league of badness.

Maybe your comprehension of English is not upto scratch?

Where am I going around offering trouble?

Just suggested to look me up and say to my face what nonsense you are saying on here.

I am more than happy to repeat face to face everything I have said on here to you in person, NOT behind a computer screen.

Showing your true colours, you used to be filth and youre proving how easily you snap, bet you fitted in well ... no doubt you were one of the cowardly fools who shows how brave you are whilst hiding behind a uniform.

400 odd deaths a year in police custody, many through being violently arrested and you cowards walk away scot free time and again ... but as no one is found guilty the filth clearly never do it right?

Here is a recent story of 2 - http://www.morningst...view/full/95369

This one will no doubt remind you of happier days, just your average arrest.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/video/news/2010/08/07/shocking-police-brutality-on-war-hero-115875-22472279/

Edited November 3, 2010 by Englander

[smokie36]

Ah, I see this thread reveals, finally, the true quality of TV members. Both sides of this "argument".

Sad, very sad. I am ashamed to be a Brit.

Les anglais....tout le temps.......malheuresment.

[JacknDanny]

Well i will make you this promise. Next time you are out and about in town on one of these football nights give me a shout. I will come from behind my laptop, look you in the eye and then you give me a rendition of your heroes song. Moron.

I dont mind having banter with anyone about football, but when you start trying to glorify a scum bag cop killer then to me you are the lowest of the low, and I would be MORE than happy to say that to your face. Suggest you grow up.

And so the name calling continues ... bit of advice though Rambo, you shouldnt go around offering trouble these days unless youre willing to be in Mr Roberts league of badness.

Maybe your comprehension of English is not upto scratch?

Where am I going around offering trouble?

Just suggested to look me up and say to my face what nonsense you are saying on here.

I am more than happy to repeat face to face everything I have said on here to you in person, NOT behind a computer screen.

Showing your true colours, you used to be filth and youre proving how easily you snap, bet you fitted in well ... no doubt you were one of the cowardly fools who shows how brave you are whilst hiding behind a uniform.

400 odd deaths a year in police custody, many through being violently arrested and you cowards walk away scot free time and again ... but as no one is found guilty the filth clearly never do it right?

Here is a recent story of 2 - http://www.morningst...view/full/95369

This one will no doubt remind you of happier days, just your average arrest.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/video/news/2010/08/07/shocking-police-brutality-on-war-hero-115875-22472279/

Englander, if you are going to go off topic and quote figures, at least do a bit of research!!!

Last year there were FOURTEEN deaths in Police custody. The last 7 years the figure has decreased yearly.(www.inquest.org.uk/statistics).

Your 2 sources The Morning Star and Daily Mirror, both left wing comics, notoriously anti-police.

Anyway this is the Football forum which is generally a good humoured section with a lot of decent banter. I apologise to those caught up in mine and englanders differences. He is now on my ignore list so I do not need to respond to his nonsense nor do you guys have to put up with some boring ping pong match :jap: