US Captors Of Alleged Arms Dealer Viktor Bout Detail Thailand Sting

[mark45y]

Victor buys his weapons from the failed states of the USSR. They have stockpiles of almost every kind of weapon available. They even sell submarines and suitcase nukes. Sorry I am not naive at all.

According to whom? is there any evidence where he allegedly bought from?

Besides the movie of course.

PS. Can you name a few states that have the stockpiles please

Ukrainian authorities admitted yesterday that they knew about the contraband cargo of North Korean weapons on the IL-76, which had been apprehended in Thailand last weekend. The press service of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) explained that this information came "from foreign partners' intelligence services" and "Alpha" special units were prepared to seize the airplane in case it had landed in the Kiev airport. However, experts believe that by making this statement, Kiev is simply trying to divert any suspicions regarding its involvement in arms smuggling.

Washington Post

MIAMI—Russian organized crime groups, flush with dollars, are forming alliances with Colombian drug traffickers in the Caribbean, acquiring cocaine for delivery to Europe and providing weapons to Latin American mafias, according to U.S., European and Latin American law enforcement officials.

In particular, the sources said, recent undercover operations have detected attempts by Russian groups to sell Colombian drug traffickers a submarine, helicopters and surface-to-air missiles. Officials said that at least two Russian combat helicopters, along with small arms, have been sold to Colombian organizations.

In the past three months, the officials said, several Russian vessels have entered the northern Colombian port of Turbo and are believed to have unloaded shipments of AK-47 assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades in exchange for drugs. It is perhaps a measure of the general level of violence in Colombia that authorities do not know whether the weapons went to Marxist guerrillas, right-wing paramilitary organizations or the Cali drug cartel.

According to the indictment, brought after a three-year undercover investigation, Fainberg and others used Porky's as a meeting place to arrange the sale of at least two Soviet military helicopters to the Cali cartel. According to officials, they also were negotiating to sell the cartel a Tango-class diesel-powered patrol submarine to be used to move cocaine from Colombia to the coast of California. The submarine was based in Kronshtadt, a large Russian submarine base on the Gulf of Finland, off St. Petersburg.

You can Google the rest there are literally thousands of entries.

Ukraine is the big supplier.

Not to discredit this story, but how about an independent source, i mean Washington Post is hardly an unbiased press.

Also i did not see anywhere in this article where it refereed to Victor buying from them.

Furthermore, in the article(unless i misunderstood) it talks of weapons of North Korea NOT Ukraine.

If anything this article is pretty much based on the movie, which is hardly a fact.

Buts lets assume for a minute that they do have a credible source and it is not biased at all,then you really need to ask yourself, why is it that since 1992 not USA or UK or the rest of the world, did not put sanctions on Ukrain to put a stop to arms dealing. From memory during their last elections USA government issued an official support for one of the candidates.

So as i said earlier, all the allegations and everything else about Victor is speculations without much of hard evidence. Yes they may have evidence of him taking an order(but i emphasize may have evidence, as he could of easily been a delivery man) they do not have any evidence where weapons were sourced from, and if they do, then again is raised the questions why they did not and still do not go after the actual source but only after the middle man.

The Washington Post is one of the 10 best newspapers in the world. It broke the Watergate story that caused President Nixon to resign. To suggest that it is biased shows an incredible lack of common knowledge. Don't believe me. Google the world's ten best newspapers.

Please read my posts a little better before you respond.

They were North Korean weapons on the way to the Ukrain. There was a lot of coverage of the story in Thaialnd you can look it up.

Cashing in on illegal arms, The Ukraine

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

The arrest of suspected arms smuggler Leonid Minin, who is currently awaiting trial in Italy, has shed some light on the workings of the Ukrainian arms trade. But his case is just one piece of a puzzle involving illicit weapons, high-level corruption and organized crime centered in Ukraine.

Ukraine does not manufacture small arms, but it inherited huge stockpiles after it broke away from the crumbling Soviet Union in 1991. The Red Army stationed nearly one million troops in Ukraine while it was a front-line member of the Eastern Bloc. As the newly independent state moved toward a partnership with NATO and downsized its military, its Soviet weapons fell into disuse. Some were sold off legally, but many slipped through the cracks and into the black market. Poorly paid soldiers "lost" their weapons, and some commanders were caught selling off entire military installations.

A Ukrainian parliamentary inquiry concluded that between 1992 and 1998, Ukraine lost $32 billion in military assets, in part through theft, discount arms sales and lack of oversight. (In comparison, Ukraine's spending on legal arms for defense in 1999 is estimated to have been $500 million.) Many of the missing weapons found their way into the hands of willing buyers in hot spots around the globe, from Sierra Leone to Croatia. And as these arms proliferated, so did evidence of international criminal networks that sold arms from Ukraine in flagrant violation of international sanctions and embargoes

Try reading the below.

Ukraine: Look Into Arms Exports

The U.S. is already watching Ukraine for signs of reform. But the Ukrainian government must do more to clean up its arms exports industry, writes Taras Kuzio in The Christian Science Monitor.

Ukraine Gunning for Arms Sales –– Not So Picky About Customers, Though

Ukraine is also notorious for its booming legal arms industry. This Deutsche Presse-Agentur article, reprinted by the Arms Trade Newswire, details recent weapons sales around the world.

Arming Rogue States

Ukrainian officials claim ignorance of arms smuggling. A once-secret document acquired by Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's "Crime, Corruption and Terrorism Watch" shows that official knowledge of arms dealing goes back a decade.

To lay it out for you as clearly as I can. Rouge elements in the former USSR stole and are stealing weapons and selling them to arms suppliers like Victor Bout. The people who made the weapons sell them to countries not individuals.

[geriatrickid]

How about getting to the core issue?

Were Viktor Bout's activities over the years legal?

Were Viktor Bout's sales of weapons to areas of civil conflict acceptable?

If the answers to the above 2 questions are no, then what could have/should have been done to stop him?

If you say he should have been stopped, who then who would have stopped him? Over 20 years of selling arms and not much of an effort to stop him. Certainly his business partners in the UAE and Russia didn't have an interest in stopping him, so who then?

The issue isn't the US or Russian foreign policy. Rather it is all about a man that made alot of money selling arms to people that should not have received arms. No doubt the US government and Russia and others have made mistakes over the years. Ok, but that doesn't make Mr. Bout's activities acceptable or justify the sale of weapons into Sierra Leone, Angola, Liberia or to a group pledged to overthrow the legitimately lected government of Columbia. Any discussion of issues unrelated to the actual activities of Mr. Bout, and his alleged willingness to sell arms to FARC is moot. Either Mr. Bout was trying to sell arms to FARC so they could kill Americans legally in the service of the Columbian government or he was not. If he was not, or if there is so much as a smidgen of doubt as to his FARC supply plans. then, he will go free.

[animatic]

Maybe he confused it with the NY Post?

[mark45y]

geriatrickid

I completely agree with you. But I don't think it is a done deal. He can afford the best attorney money can buy and he did work for the Americans at one time.

I would expect a couple of years before he goes to trial.

The Russians don't want him dead or he would already be dead. And I don't understand that.

The Americans apparently don't want him dead either.

The US would be the last place in the world I would take him if I wanted to question him. I don't understand that either.

Something funny in Denmark.

Edited November 20, 2010 by mark45y

[mark45y]

Maybe he confused it with the NY Post?

I think he is just a relatively unsophisticated young man. I can remember being like that. I went to the supply sergeant asking for a new pair of boots. He sold them all on the local economy. I had to go to Saigon to buy a new pair of boots from a Vietnamese dealer. That's when I found out I could buy a decent gun. My M-16 used to jam all the time. I bought a Thompson. They used to kid me about it but I could get .45 cal ammo anywhere. One thing led to another and I began to learn about life in South East Asia. What I didn't learn in Saigon, Bangkok filled in the gaps. I aged a lot in a couple of years. When I left I was not naive any more.

I knew a couple of pilots who used to fly for Corsican air. I think that's what they called it. Interesting stories even if only 10% was true. It is a big bad world and it is a good thing they got Victor off the street.

The point about arms makers knowing who the end user is, is silly. Especially AK-47's or RPG's.

[cdnvic]

Off-topic troll post and one quoting it removed.

[kuffki]

The Washington Post is one of the 10 best newspapers in the world. It broke the Watergate story that caused President Nixon to resign. To suggest that it is biased shows an incredible lack of common knowledge. Don't believe me. Google the world's ten best newspapers.

Please read my posts a little better before you respond.

They were North Korean weapons on the way to the Ukrain. There was a lot of coverage of the story in Thaialnd you can look it up.

Cashing in on illegal arms, The Ukraine

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

The arrest of suspected arms smuggler Leonid Minin, who is currently awaiting trial in Italy, has shed some light on the workings of the Ukrainian arms trade. But his case is just one piece of a puzzle involving illicit weapons, high-level corruption and organized crime centered in Ukraine.

Ukraine does not manufacture small arms, but it inherited huge stockpiles after it broke away from the crumbling Soviet Union in 1991. The Red Army stationed nearly one million troops in Ukraine while it was a front-line member of the Eastern Bloc. As the newly independent state moved toward a partnership with NATO and downsized its military, its Soviet weapons fell into disuse. Some were sold off legally, but many slipped through the cracks and into the black market. Poorly paid soldiers "lost" their weapons, and some commanders were caught selling off entire military installations.

A Ukrainian parliamentary inquiry concluded that between 1992 and 1998, Ukraine lost $32 billion in military assets, in part through theft, discount arms sales and lack of oversight. (In comparison, Ukraine's spending on legal arms for defense in 1999 is estimated to have been $500 million.) Many of the missing weapons found their way into the hands of willing buyers in hot spots around the globe, from Sierra Leone to Croatia. And as these arms proliferated, so did evidence of international criminal networks that sold arms from Ukraine in flagrant violation of international sanctions and embargoes

Try reading the below.

Ukraine: Look Into Arms Exports

The U.S. is already watching Ukraine for signs of reform. But the Ukrainian government must do more to clean up its arms exports industry, writes Taras Kuzio in The Christian Science Monitor.

Ukraine Gunning for Arms Sales –– Not So Picky About Customers, Though

Ukraine is also notorious for its booming legal arms industry. This Deutsche Presse-Agentur article, reprinted by the Arms Trade Newswire, details recent weapons sales around the world.

Arming Rogue States

Ukrainian officials claim ignorance of arms smuggling. A once-secret document acquired by Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's "Crime, Corruption and Terrorism Watch" shows that official knowledge of arms dealing goes back a decade.

To lay it out for you as clearly as I can. Rouge elements in the former USSR stole and are stealing weapons and selling them to arms suppliers like Victor Bout. The people who made the weapons sell them to countries not individuals.

I can fully understad your desire trying to get personal just to prove your point.

I can also see that its fairly hard to accept certain facts, however Washington Post is US based newspaper, is it not?

Where is Victor been extradited to?

Which country filed all the charges?

Am i the one with no common sense?

According to your posts, There are "criminals " running around in Russia and stealing weapons left, right and center. One thing you forgotten is that this was the case 20 years ago at the USSR fell apart, it certainly not the case now or for the past 10 years at least.

You yourself just confirmed USA put Ukrain on the watch list, yet USA have done nothing for 20 years, being well aware of all the arms dealings.

So the whole entire world knows about Ukrain, yet the whole entire world does nothing. Since according to you i lack common sense, perhaps you can explain it to me, how everyone knows but the only thing they do is put it on a watch list? how exactly does that stop the problem?

So it is either that they do not have any evidence or it was too convenient to have it sold this way.

You have also posted in another post that you do not understand why Russia and USA does not want him dead, May be that is the question you should be Googling rather then passing the judgement without any evidence at all.

[mark45y]

The Washington Post is one of the 10 best newspapers in the world. It broke the Watergate story that caused President Nixon to resign. To suggest that it is biased shows an incredible lack of common knowledge. Don't believe me. Google the world's ten best newspapers.

Please read my posts a little better before you respond.

They were North Korean weapons on the way to the Ukrain. There was a lot of coverage of the story in Thaialnd you can look it up.

Cashing in on illegal arms, The Ukraine

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

The arrest of suspected arms smuggler Leonid Minin, who is currently awaiting trial in Italy, has shed some light on the workings of the Ukrainian arms trade. But his case is just one piece of a puzzle involving illicit weapons, high-level corruption and organized crime centered in Ukraine.

Ukraine does not manufacture small arms, but it inherited huge stockpiles after it broke away from the crumbling Soviet Union in 1991. The Red Army stationed nearly one million troops in Ukraine while it was a front-line member of the Eastern Bloc. As the newly independent state moved toward a partnership with NATO and downsized its military, its Soviet weapons fell into disuse. Some were sold off legally, but many slipped through the cracks and into the black market. Poorly paid soldiers "lost" their weapons, and some commanders were caught selling off entire military installations.

A Ukrainian parliamentary inquiry concluded that between 1992 and 1998, Ukraine lost $32 billion in military assets, in part through theft, discount arms sales and lack of oversight. (In comparison, Ukraine's spending on legal arms for defense in 1999 is estimated to have been $500 million.) Many of the missing weapons found their way into the hands of willing buyers in hot spots around the globe, from Sierra Leone to Croatia. And as these arms proliferated, so did evidence of international criminal networks that sold arms from Ukraine in flagrant violation of international sanctions and embargoes

Try reading the below.

Ukraine: Look Into Arms Exports

The U.S. is already watching Ukraine for signs of reform. But the Ukrainian government must do more to clean up its arms exports industry, writes Taras Kuzio in The Christian Science Monitor.

Ukraine Gunning for Arms Sales –– Not So Picky About Customers, Though

Ukraine is also notorious for its booming legal arms industry. This Deutsche Presse-Agentur article, reprinted by the Arms Trade Newswire, details recent weapons sales around the world.

Arming Rogue States

Ukrainian officials claim ignorance of arms smuggling. A once-secret document acquired by Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's "Crime, Corruption and Terrorism Watch" shows that official knowledge of arms dealing goes back a decade.

To lay it out for you as clearly as I can. Rouge elements in the former USSR stole and are stealing weapons and selling them to arms suppliers like Victor Bout. The people who made the weapons sell them to countries not individuals.

I can fully understad your desire trying to get personal just to prove your point.

I can also see that its fairly hard to accept certain facts, however Washington Post is US based newspaper, is it not?

Where is Victor been extradited to?

Which country filed all the charges?

Am i the one with no common sense?

According to your posts, There are "criminals " running around in Russia and stealing weapons left, right and center. One thing you forgotten is that this was the case 20 years ago at the USSR fell apart, it certainly not the case now or for the past 10 years at least.

You yourself just confirmed USA put Ukrain on the watch list, yet USA have done nothing for 20 years, being well aware of all the arms dealings.

So the whole entire world knows about Ukrain, yet the whole entire world does nothing. Since according to you i lack common sense, perhaps you can explain it to me, how everyone knows but the only thing they do is put it on a watch list? how exactly does that stop the problem?

So it is either that they do not have any evidence or it was too convenient to have it sold this way.

You have also posted in another post that you do not understand why Russia and USA does not want him dead, May be that is the question you should be Googling rather then passing the judgement without any evidence at all.

America has freedom of speech. American newspapers are free to criticize the US government and do frequently. Some US newspapers are right wing and some left wing but they both criticize the government from their own perspectives.

The NY times and the Washington post are generally accepted to be unbiased and the source of factual information by everyone in the world. They check their facts better than most because they have the budget to do so. If they don't they get sued.

If Victor Bout has been lied about in the Washington post he can sue them. This is not the case in Russia.

Does the world know that underage prostitution exists in SEA? Does the world know that there is massive political injustice in Burma? Does the world know that North Korea starves its own people? Does the world know that China puts noble prize winners in prison because they speak out against the government? I think the answer to all these questions is a resounding, YES.

Does the world know that people in Russia supply arms to rouge states even today? Does the world know that people in the Ukraine supply arms to anyone even today? Does the world know that in the border areas of Pakistan there are hundreds of gunsmiths that can make just about anything needed for war? The answer to these questions is also a resounding YES.

Why does the world do nothing? Why does the world do nothing about the drug production in Burma? I don't know.

Why does the world do nothing about the drug production in Columbia?

A few months ago an Israeli hit team went into a hotel and killed a guy. That is one way of dealing with it. The US sent DEA agents to do a sting against Victor Bout and take him to the US and that is another way of dealing with the problem.

Perhaps the US is trying to make an example so other gun runners will think twice about selling arms to narco terrorists in Columbia? I don't know. Although I personally think this is silly who knows why?

Victor has double crossed both the US and Russia. He double crossed them in a shady world where those things are rarely tolerated. How he lasted this long is a mystery to me. He has been called a mystery man.

Sometimes quantitative coincidence becomes qualitative evidence. If a man carrying a machete is seen at the location of 20 machete murders on twenty different days even though no one saw him hack up anyone there is a likelihood that he was the culprit. If Victors airplanes show up (for the past 15 years) in every local war where opposing armies need weapons and after his plane leaves the shooting starts there is a likelihood he had something to do with it.

[kuffki]

The Washington Post is one of the 10 best newspapers in the world. It broke the Watergate story that caused President Nixon to resign. To suggest that it is biased shows an incredible lack of common knowledge. Don't believe me. Google the world's ten best newspapers.

Please read my posts a little better before you respond.

They were North Korean weapons on the way to the Ukrain. There was a lot of coverage of the story in Thaialnd you can look it up.

Cashing in on illegal arms, The Ukraine

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

The arrest of suspected arms smuggler Leonid Minin, who is currently awaiting trial in Italy, has shed some light on the workings of the Ukrainian arms trade. But his case is just one piece of a puzzle involving illicit weapons, high-level corruption and organized crime centered in Ukraine.

Ukraine does not manufacture small arms, but it inherited huge stockpiles after it broke away from the crumbling Soviet Union in 1991. The Red Army stationed nearly one million troops in Ukraine while it was a front-line member of the Eastern Bloc. As the newly independent state moved toward a partnership with NATO and downsized its military, its Soviet weapons fell into disuse. Some were sold off legally, but many slipped through the cracks and into the black market. Poorly paid soldiers "lost" their weapons, and some commanders were caught selling off entire military installations.

A Ukrainian parliamentary inquiry concluded that between 1992 and 1998, Ukraine lost $32 billion in military assets, in part through theft, discount arms sales and lack of oversight. (In comparison, Ukraine's spending on legal arms for defense in 1999 is estimated to have been $500 million.) Many of the missing weapons found their way into the hands of willing buyers in hot spots around the globe, from Sierra Leone to Croatia. And as these arms proliferated, so did evidence of international criminal networks that sold arms from Ukraine in flagrant violation of international sanctions and embargoes

Try reading the below.

Ukraine: Look Into Arms Exports

The U.S. is already watching Ukraine for signs of reform. But the Ukrainian government must do more to clean up its arms exports industry, writes Taras Kuzio in The Christian Science Monitor.

Ukraine Gunning for Arms Sales –– Not So Picky About Customers, Though

Ukraine is also notorious for its booming legal arms industry. This Deutsche Presse-Agentur article, reprinted by the Arms Trade Newswire, details recent weapons sales around the world.

Arming Rogue States

Ukrainian officials claim ignorance of arms smuggling. A once-secret document acquired by Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's "Crime, Corruption and Terrorism Watch" shows that official knowledge of arms dealing goes back a decade.

To lay it out for you as clearly as I can. Rouge elements in the former USSR stole and are stealing weapons and selling them to arms suppliers like Victor Bout. The people who made the weapons sell them to countries not individuals.

I can fully understad your desire trying to get personal just to prove your point.

I can also see that its fairly hard to accept certain facts, however Washington Post is US based newspaper, is it not?

Where is Victor been extradited to?

Which country filed all the charges?

Am i the one with no common sense?

According to your posts, There are "criminals " running around in Russia and stealing weapons left, right and center. One thing you forgotten is that this was the case 20 years ago at the USSR fell apart, it certainly not the case now or for the past 10 years at least.

You yourself just confirmed USA put Ukrain on the watch list, yet USA have done nothing for 20 years, being well aware of all the arms dealings.

So the whole entire world knows about Ukrain, yet the whole entire world does nothing. Since according to you i lack common sense, perhaps you can explain it to me, how everyone knows but the only thing they do is put it on a watch list? how exactly does that stop the problem?

So it is either that they do not have any evidence or it was too convenient to have it sold this way.

You have also posted in another post that you do not understand why Russia and USA does not want him dead, May be that is the question you should be Googling rather then passing the judgement without any evidence at all.

America has freedom of speech. American newspapers are free to criticize the US government and do frequently. Some US newspapers are right wing and some left wing but they both criticize the government from their own perspectives.

The NY times and the Washington post are generally accepted to be unbiased and the source of factual information by everyone in the world. They check their facts better than most because they have the budget to do so. If they don't they get sued.

If Victor Bout has been lied about in the Washington post he can sue them. This is not the case in Russia.

Does the world know that underage prostitution exists in SEA? Does the world know that there is massive political injustice in Burma? Does the world know that North Korea starves its own people? Does the world know that China puts noble prize winners in prison because they speak out against the government? I think the answer to all these questions is a resounding, YES.

Does the world know that people in Russia supply arms to rouge states even today? Does the world know that people in the Ukraine supply arms to anyone even today? Does the world know that in the border areas of Pakistan there are hundreds of gunsmiths that can make just about anything needed for war? The answer to these questions is also a resounding YES.

Why does the world do nothing? Why does the world do nothing about the drug production in Burma? I don't know.

Why does the world do nothing about the drug production in Columbia?

A few months ago an Israeli hit team went into a hotel and killed a guy. That is one way of dealing with it. The US sent DEA agents to do a sting against Victor Bout and take him to the US and that is another way of dealing with the problem.

Perhaps the US is trying to make an example so other gun runners will think twice about selling arms to narco terrorists in Columbia? I don't know. Although I personally think this is silly who knows why?

Victor has double crossed both the US and Russia. He double crossed them in a shady world where those things are rarely tolerated. How he lasted this long is a mystery to me. He has been called a mystery man.

Sometimes quantitative coincidence becomes qualitative evidence. If a man carrying a machete is seen at the location of 20 machete murders on twenty different days even though no one saw him hack up anyone there is a likelihood that he was the culprit. If Victors airplanes show up (for the past 15 years) in every local war where opposing armies need weapons and after his plane leaves the shooting starts there is a likelihood he had something to do with it.

So to summarize:

You do not have any evidence at all of who and what Victor actually was, ie if he was a middle man, the main man or just the delivery man

There is no evidence as to where the weapons came from, only speculations by the US and German Press

Allegedly weapons came from Ukrain, according to US and German press, yet the only actions that were taken was to put the country on the watch list.

In a nutshel, there is no hard evidence of anything at all, ONLY the speculation by the USA and some European countries.

"A few months ago an Israeli hit team went into a hotel and killed a guy. That is one way of dealing with it" again allegedly(a speculation) and according to some press, not confirmed nor proven

So it is possible to assume or presume that there is much more to it then been posted by the papers, and there are people in the US and other countries who could be involved.

If Victor did indeed double cross US and Russia as you stated, in my "relatively unsophisticated young man"(as you like to refer to me) mind it leaves no doubt at all that he would not be extradited but rather be buried so he would not speak, but since neither countries seem to want that, there is possibility that he was just a delivery man and higher "power" are involved on both sides.

Just a thought, may be read Russian or Ukranian press and see what they say on the matter.

While the movie was fun to watch, this is all it was the movie!

PS. Just to answer why the world does nothing about the problem, simple because countries mentioned today benefit one way or another. The moment they stop to benefit, rest assured something will be done

[mark45y]

The Washington Post is one of the 10 best newspapers in the world. It broke the Watergate story that caused President Nixon to resign. To suggest that it is biased shows an incredible lack of common knowledge. Don't believe me. Google the world's ten best newspapers.

Please read my posts a little better before you respond.

They were North Korean weapons on the way to the Ukrain. There was a lot of coverage of the story in Thaialnd you can look it up.

Cashing in on illegal arms, The Ukraine

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

During the past decade, Ukraine has gained a reputation as one of the world's most active suppliers of illegal small arms. It is one of several Eastern European countries that has turned to arms dealing as a source of much-needed hard currency. Between 1997 and 2000, the Ukrainian arms industry grew tenfold and exported $1.5 billion worth of weapons. While Ukraine's legal arms industry has boomed, the international small arms black market may have proved far more lucrative. Ukrainian arms have been linked to some of the world's bloodiest conflicts and most notorious governments, including the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, and, until recently, the Taliban in Afghanistan.

The arrest of suspected arms smuggler Leonid Minin, who is currently awaiting trial in Italy, has shed some light on the workings of the Ukrainian arms trade. But his case is just one piece of a puzzle involving illicit weapons, high-level corruption and organized crime centered in Ukraine.

Ukraine does not manufacture small arms, but it inherited huge stockpiles after it broke away from the crumbling Soviet Union in 1991. The Red Army stationed nearly one million troops in Ukraine while it was a front-line member of the Eastern Bloc. As the newly independent state moved toward a partnership with NATO and downsized its military, its Soviet weapons fell into disuse. Some were sold off legally, but many slipped through the cracks and into the black market. Poorly paid soldiers "lost" their weapons, and some commanders were caught selling off entire military installations.

A Ukrainian parliamentary inquiry concluded that between 1992 and 1998, Ukraine lost $32 billion in military assets, in part through theft, discount arms sales and lack of oversight. (In comparison, Ukraine's spending on legal arms for defense in 1999 is estimated to have been $500 million.) Many of the missing weapons found their way into the hands of willing buyers in hot spots around the globe, from Sierra Leone to Croatia. And as these arms proliferated, so did evidence of international criminal networks that sold arms from Ukraine in flagrant violation of international sanctions and embargoes

Try reading the below.

Ukraine: Look Into Arms Exports

The U.S. is already watching Ukraine for signs of reform. But the Ukrainian government must do more to clean up its arms exports industry, writes Taras Kuzio in The Christian Science Monitor.

Ukraine Gunning for Arms Sales –– Not So Picky About Customers, Though

Ukraine is also notorious for its booming legal arms industry. This Deutsche Presse-Agentur article, reprinted by the Arms Trade Newswire, details recent weapons sales around the world.

Arming Rogue States

Ukrainian officials claim ignorance of arms smuggling. A once-secret document acquired by Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's "Crime, Corruption and Terrorism Watch" shows that official knowledge of arms dealing goes back a decade.

To lay it out for you as clearly as I can. Rouge elements in the former USSR stole and are stealing weapons and selling them to arms suppliers like Victor Bout. The people who made the weapons sell them to countries not individuals.

I can fully understad your desire trying to get personal just to prove your point.

I can also see that its fairly hard to accept certain facts, however Washington Post is US based newspaper, is it not?

Where is Victor been extradited to?

Which country filed all the charges?

Am i the one with no common sense?

According to your posts, There are "criminals " running around in Russia and stealing weapons left, right and center. One thing you forgotten is that this was the case 20 years ago at the USSR fell apart, it certainly not the case now or for the past 10 years at least.

You yourself just confirmed USA put Ukrain on the watch list, yet USA have done nothing for 20 years, being well aware of all the arms dealings.

So the whole entire world knows about Ukrain, yet the whole entire world does nothing. Since according to you i lack common sense, perhaps you can explain it to me, how everyone knows but the only thing they do is put it on a watch list? how exactly does that stop the problem?

So it is either that they do not have any evidence or it was too convenient to have it sold this way.

You have also posted in another post that you do not understand why Russia and USA does not want him dead, May be that is the question you should be Googling rather then passing the judgement without any evidence at all.

America has freedom of speech. American newspapers are free to criticize the US government and do frequently. Some US newspapers are right wing and some left wing but they both criticize the government from their own perspectives.

The NY times and the Washington post are generally accepted to be unbiased and the source of factual information by everyone in the world. They check their facts better than most because they have the budget to do so. If they don't they get sued.

If Victor Bout has been lied about in the Washington post he can sue them. This is not the case in Russia.

Does the world know that underage prostitution exists in SEA? Does the world know that there is massive political injustice in Burma? Does the world know that North Korea starves its own people? Does the world know that China puts noble prize winners in prison because they speak out against the government? I think the answer to all these questions is a resounding, YES.

Does the world know that people in Russia supply arms to rouge states even today? Does the world know that people in the Ukraine supply arms to anyone even today? Does the world know that in the border areas of Pakistan there are hundreds of gunsmiths that can make just about anything needed for war? The answer to these questions is also a resounding YES.

Why does the world do nothing? Why does the world do nothing about the drug production in Burma? I don't know.

Why does the world do nothing about the drug production in Columbia?

A few months ago an Israeli hit team went into a hotel and killed a guy. That is one way of dealing with it. The US sent DEA agents to do a sting against Victor Bout and take him to the US and that is another way of dealing with the problem.

Perhaps the US is trying to make an example so other gun runners will think twice about selling arms to narco terrorists in Columbia? I don't know. Although I personally think this is silly who knows why?

Victor has double crossed both the US and Russia. He double crossed them in a shady world where those things are rarely tolerated. How he lasted this long is a mystery to me. He has been called a mystery man.

Sometimes quantitative coincidence becomes qualitative evidence. If a man carrying a machete is seen at the location of 20 machete murders on twenty different days even though no one saw him hack up anyone there is a likelihood that he was the culprit. If Victors airplanes show up (for the past 15 years) in every local war where opposing armies need weapons and after his plane leaves the shooting starts there is a likelihood he had something to do with it.

So to summarize:

You do not have any evidence at all of who and what Victor actually was, ie if he was a middle man, the main man or just the delivery man

There is no evidence as to where the weapons came from, only speculations by the US and German Press

Allegedly weapons came from Ukrain, according to US and German press, yet the only actions that were taken was to put the country on the watch list.

In a nutshel, there is no hard evidence of anything at all, ONLY the speculation by the USA and some European countries.

"A few months ago an Israeli hit team went into a hotel and killed a guy. That is one way of dealing with it" again allegedly(a speculation) and according to some press, not confirmed nor proven

So it is possible to assume or presume that there is much more to it then been posted by the papers, and there are people in the US and other countries who could be involved.

If Victor did indeed double cross US and Russia as you stated, in my "relatively unsophisticated young man"(as you like to refer to me) mind it leaves no doubt at all that he would not be extradited but rather be buried so he would not speak, but since neither countries seem to want that, there is possibility that he was just a delivery man and higher "power" are involved on both sides.

Just a thought, may be read Russian or Ukranian press and see what they say on the matter.

While the movie was fun to watch, this is all it was the movie!

PS. Just to answer why the world does nothing about the problem, simple because countries mentioned today benefit one way or another. The moment they stop to benefit, rest assured something will be done

I think you are saying two things.

1.There is no hard evidence that Victor Bout did anything but deliver weapons. And maybe you are saying there is no hard evidence that Bout did anything wrong at all.

2.If a country does something another country does not like something bad will happen to that country. You said, “The moment they stop to benefit, rest assured something will be done.”

In answer to your first question, there is overwhelming evidence of wrong doing on the part of Victor Bout in any media that you care to research. About the hard evidence, he will be arranged in January and then the world will know what hard evidence the Americans have on the guy. Since you don't believe the thousands of stories in the press and on the INTERNET it would be fruitless for me to post those. He will have an excellent lawyer and I am sure most if not all of the testimony will be made public.

It is difficult to debate an issue when one person, you, choose to ignore an overwhelming body of evidence. Example,

Police in Dubai have issued international arrest warrants for eleven people wanted in the murder of Mahmoud al Mabhouh, a Hamas military commander, who was found dead in his room at the five-star Al Bustan Rotana Hotel in Dubai.

Britain took the extraordinary step Tuesday of expelling an Israeli diplomat for the first time in more than 20 years, after concluding there was compelling evidence that Israel was responsible for the use of forged British passports in the plot to slay a senior Hamas operative in Dubai.

As to your second question that when a country is obviously a rouge state, take North Korea, other countries may want to do something but sometimes the cost is not worth the trouble.

I am sure South Korea and most of the world would like North Korea to join with other nations in improving the life of its people and country in general. But it is not going to happen. I don't think anything North Korea does is in the interest of the UK, US, Japan or any other sane nation. Still it exists. When North Korea upsets China and they cut off the aid dollars something may happen.

The UN is for the most part toothless and is nothing more than a group of overpaid paper pushers. However it is all we got. So I guess it is better than nothing.

Forgive me, I don't know how to continue as we don't agree on the method of fact finding. Sorry.

[kuffki]

I think you are saying two things.

1.There is no hard evidence that Victor Bout did anything but deliver weapons. And maybe you are saying there is no hard evidence that Bout did anything wrong at all.

2.If a country does something another country does not like something bad will happen to that country. You said, "The moment they stop to benefit, rest assured something will be done."

In answer to your first question, there is overwhelming evidence of wrong doing on the part of Victor Bout in any media that you care to research. About the hard evidence, he will be arranged in January and then the world will know what hard evidence the Americans have on the guy. Since you don't believe the thousands of stories in the press and on the INTERNET it would be fruitless for me to post those. He will have an excellent lawyer and I am sure most if not all of the testimony will be made public.

It is difficult to debate an issue when one person, you, choose to ignore an overwhelming body of evidence. Example,

Police in Dubai have issued international arrest warrants for eleven people wanted in the murder of Mahmoud al Mabhouh, a Hamas military commander, who was found dead in his room at the five-star Al Bustan Rotana Hotel in Dubai.

Britain took the extraordinary step Tuesday of expelling an Israeli diplomat for the first time in more than 20 years, after concluding there was compelling evidence that Israel was responsible for the use of forged British passports in the plot to slay a senior Hamas operative in Dubai.

As to your second question that when a country is obviously a rouge state, take North Korea, other countries may want to do something but sometimes the cost is not worth the trouble.

I am sure South Korea and most of the world would like North Korea to join with other nations in improving the life of its people and country in general. But it is not going to happen. I don't think anything North Korea does is in the interest of the UK, US, Japan or any other sane nation. Still it exists. When North Korea upsets China and they cut off the aid dollars something may happen.

The UN is for the most part toothless and is nothing more than a group of overpaid paper pushers. However it is all we got. So I guess it is better than nothing.

Forgive me, I don't know how to continue as we don't agree on the method of fact finding. Sorry.

What evidence??? what is the evidence? Where is the hard evidence???

What i am saying that for now and till now everyone has been speculating.

I do not know nor you know if he was the man, or delivery man or middle man.

As i have said now 5 times, there is no doubt in my mind that he is involved somehow, but how and to what extent is nothing but a speculation.

Nothing "bad" needs to happen, but simple sanctions may be a good start.

you are right, you have seen the movie, read few articles so you set on his guilt and involvement, yet every time i ask you to provide hard evidence, all you do is post links and refer to some press releases which are nothing but speculations.

Why have you not posted any links or sources from Russia or any former USSR states?

Media loves to speculate and quote sources, yet no evidence when it comes to a crunch.

Allegedly he was getting the weapons from Ukrain, yet no evidence.

Allegedly its very easy to purchase suitcase nukes in Ukrain, yet no evidence of anyone actually making the purchase

Allegedly Ukrain has been put on the USA watch list, yet sale of arms continues.

And you are right again, we do not agree on method of facts finding, because simply there are no facts or evidence and i do not know if it will ever be made public. All that can be found is speculations and allegations, which hardly can be called a fact.

[mark45y]

Response to Kuffki.

I assume you know that Pravda is a Russian newspaper. Below are some quotes.

"I think that this is a political anti-Russian action, the goal of which is to strengthen the American influence on the Russian political establishment. It is obvious that Bout was involved in arms sales, but he could not cause severe damage to the Americans. He was delivering outdated arms mostly to those groups that were not struggling against US interests. Bout was proceeding from the paying capacity of his customers in his business.”

Pyotr Simonenko, the leader of the Ukrainian Communist Party released a sensational statement on Wednesday. In his words, there were 2400 nuclear warheads in Ukraine, although the export of only 2200 of them was officially documented. Simonenko claimed that nobody knows where 200 Soviet-era nukes in Ukraine are.

The official reaction followed the next day, but it was a rather weak one. Deputy chief of the Ukrainian Army Headquarters, Nikolay Goncharenko, declared that Simonenko’s statement regarding the disappearance of the nuclear weapons from the territory of Ukraine was absolutely groundless. The high-ranking military official stated that all weapons of the trilateral agreement concerning the execution of the contract for strategic offensive arms had been handed over to Russia. Ok, but how come the leader of Ukrainian communists counted 200 nukes? It seems that the nuke scandal will continue.

Your question, "Why have you not posted any links or sources from Russia or any former USSR states?"

Because you wouldn't believe them either!

Even the Russians admit the guy was selling arms and the Ukraine is missing nukes.

[kuffki]

Response to Kuffki.

I assume you know that Pravda is a Russian newspaper. Below are some quotes.

"I think that this is a political anti-Russian action, the goal of which is to strengthen the American influence on the Russian political establishment. It is obvious that Bout was involved in arms sales, but he could not cause severe damage to the Americans. He was delivering outdated arms mostly to those groups that were not struggling against US interests. Bout was proceeding from the paying capacity of his customers in his business."

Pyotr Simonenko, the leader of the Ukrainian Communist Party released a sensational statement on Wednesday. In his words, there were 2400 nuclear warheads in Ukraine, although the export of only 2200 of them was officially documented. Simonenko claimed that nobody knows where 200 Soviet-era nukes in Ukraine are.

The official reaction followed the next day, but it was a rather weak one. Deputy chief of the Ukrainian Army Headquarters, Nikolay Goncharenko, declared that Simonenko's statement regarding the disappearance of the nuclear weapons from the territory of Ukraine was absolutely groundless. The high-ranking military official stated that all weapons of the trilateral agreement concerning the execution of the contract for strategic offensive arms had been handed over to Russia. Ok, but how come the leader of Ukrainian communists counted 200 nukes? It seems that the nuke scandal will continue.

Your question, "Why have you not posted any links or sources from Russia or any former USSR states?"

Because you wouldn't believe them either!

Even the Russians admit the guy was selling arms and the Ukraine is missing nukes.

Thank you for such a large font, but i think you forgotten i am still young, so can see well.

To start with i am better familiar with Russian papers, because i speak and read Russian almost fluently

Secondly if you read again what you wrote in very very large font and in bald "Bout was involved in arms sales,"He was delivering "

Can you please point out which word translates into selling arms??

Again for the 6th time, yes he was somehow involved, but how is a speculation. Again, was he the main man, the middle man or the delivery man.??

The quotes you provided clearly states and i emphasize "involved" and "deliver", which hardly specify's a FACT of what his actual involvement was/is.

Nukes missing, does not automatically translate to being stolen or up for sale,only because using common sense and logic, if those nukes were for sale rest assured terrorists would have already used a few, not to mention Ukrain would not be on a watch list but more like "behind the bars" list

Do you really think USA and the rest of the world would allow for nukes to be so easily sold and purchased?

I think it might be the time you stop trying to twist what is printed and accept the fact that you do not know and can only speculate what his involvement was.

PS. Funny enough the day he was extradited, Russian channel( the main news channel from Moscow) disappeared from Sophon Cable and replaced with some Thai "pretty girls" show

[sbk]

Response to Kuffki.

I assume you know that Pravda is a Russian newspaper. Below are some quotes.

"I think that this is a political anti-Russian action, the goal of which is to strengthen the American influence on the Russian political establishment. It is obvious that Bout was involved in arms sales, but he could not cause severe damage to the Americans. He was delivering outdated arms mostly to those groups that were not struggling against US interests. Bout was proceeding from the paying capacity of his customers in his business.”

Pyotr Simonenko, the leader of the Ukrainian Communist Party released a sensational statement on Wednesday. In his words, there were 2400 nuclear warheads in Ukraine, although the export of only 2200 of them was officially documented. Simonenko claimed that nobody knows where 200 Soviet-era nukes in Ukraine are.

The official reaction followed the next day, but it was a rather weak one. Deputy chief of the Ukrainian Army Headquarters, Nikolay Goncharenko, declared that Simonenko’s statement regarding the disappearance of the nuclear weapons from the territory of Ukraine was absolutely groundless. The high-ranking military official stated that all weapons of the trilateral agreement concerning the execution of the contract for strategic offensive arms had been handed over to Russia. Ok, but how come the leader of Ukrainian communists counted 200 nukes? It seems that the nuke scandal will continue.

Your question, "Why have you not posted any links or sources from Russia or any former USSR states?"

Because you wouldn't believe them either!

Even the Russians admit the guy was selling arms and the Ukraine is missing nukes.

Agreed, drop the font changes in order to make your point, its poor netiquette and annoying. cheers

[mark45y]

Response to Kuffki.

I assume you know that Pravda is a Russian newspaper. Below are some quotes.

"I think that this is a political anti-Russian action, the goal of which is to strengthen the American influence on the Russian political establishment. It is obvious that Bout was involved in arms sales, but he could not cause severe damage to the Americans. He was delivering outdated arms mostly to those groups that were not struggling against US interests. Bout was proceeding from the paying capacity of his customers in his business."

Pyotr Simonenko, the leader of the Ukrainian Communist Party released a sensational statement on Wednesday. In his words, there were 2400 nuclear warheads in Ukraine, although the export of only 2200 of them was officially documented. Simonenko claimed that nobody knows where 200 Soviet-era nukes in Ukraine are.

The official reaction followed the next day, but it was a rather weak one. Deputy chief of the Ukrainian Army Headquarters, Nikolay Goncharenko, declared that Simonenko's statement regarding the disappearance of the nuclear weapons from the territory of Ukraine was absolutely groundless. The high-ranking military official stated that all weapons of the trilateral agreement concerning the execution of the contract for strategic offensive arms had been handed over to Russia. Ok, but how come the leader of Ukrainian communists counted 200 nukes? It seems that the nuke scandal will continue.

Your question, "Why have you not posted any links or sources from Russia or any former USSR states?"

Because you wouldn't believe them either!

Even the Russians admit the guy was selling arms and the Ukraine is missing nukes.

Thank you for such a large font, but i think you forgotten i am still young, so can see well.

To start with i am better familiar with Russian papers, because i speak and read Russian almost fluently

Secondly if you read again what you wrote in very very large font and in bald "Bout was involved in arms sales,"He was delivering "

Can you please point out which word translates into selling arms??

Again for the 6th time, yes he was somehow involved, but how is a speculation. Again, was he the main man, the middle man or the delivery man.??

The quotes you provided clearly states and i emphasize "involved" and "deliver", which hardly specify's a FACT of what his actual involvement was/is.

Nukes missing, does not automatically translate to being stolen or up for sale,only because using common sense and logic, if those nukes were for sale rest assured terrorists would have already used a few, not to mention Ukrain would not be on a watch list but more like "behind the bars" list

Do you really think USA and the rest of the world would allow for nukes to be so easily sold and purchased?

I think it might be the time you stop trying to twist what is printed and accept the fact that you do not know and can only speculate what his involvement was.

PS. Funny enough the day he was extradited, Russian channel( the main news channel from Moscow) disappeared from Sophon Cable and replaced with some Thai "pretty girls" show

You asked me to post some Russian sources so I did. As to your question about "Can you please point out which word translates into selling arms?"

Yes I can. Quote from Pravda, "Bout was involved in arms sales," I think being involved in arms sales means, selling arms. What do you think it means.

The world is very concerned about the 200 missing nukes. I don't know why you don't know this.

Your other question about was he "the main man, the middle man or the delivery man?"

If you go to Singapore with drugs it will not make any difference if you are the main man, middle man or delivery man. They will still hang you.

If you go to Columbia with a cargo or arms for the FARC it does not make any difference if you are the main man, middle man or the delivery man. You will go to jail for a very long time. I mean you can only live so many years. The main man gets 200 sentence, the middle man 100 and the delivery man 50 years. You are still an illegal gun runner if you are the main man, middle man or delivery man. You are a bad boy and will go to jail for a long time.

[jdinasia]

Kuffki is playing at a losing game of semantics ....

He admits Bout was a gunrunner but thinks somehow that being a gunrunner isn't the same as selling guns. (note --- the statements from all over place Bout as an arms merchant dealing to some of the dirtiest wars in the world (child soldiers etc).

Now --- for those few folks that thought that Bout was going to be a major political scandal hurting US-Russian diplomacy we need only look at Russia allowing NATO to use Russia as a route to supply NATO forces in Afghanistan.

[kuffki]

Response to Kuffki.

I assume you know that Pravda is a Russian newspaper. Below are some quotes.

"I think that this is a political anti-Russian action, the goal of which is to strengthen the American influence on the Russian political establishment. It is obvious that Bout was involved in arms sales, but he could not cause severe damage to the Americans. He was delivering outdated arms mostly to those groups that were not struggling against US interests. Bout was proceeding from the paying capacity of his customers in his business."

Pyotr Simonenko, the leader of the Ukrainian Communist Party released a sensational statement on Wednesday. In his words, there were 2400 nuclear warheads in Ukraine, although the export of only 2200 of them was officially documented. Simonenko claimed that nobody knows where 200 Soviet-era nukes in Ukraine are.

The official reaction followed the next day, but it was a rather weak one. Deputy chief of the Ukrainian Army Headquarters, Nikolay Goncharenko, declared that Simonenko's statement regarding the disappearance of the nuclear weapons from the territory of Ukraine was absolutely groundless. The high-ranking military official stated that all weapons of the trilateral agreement concerning the execution of the contract for strategic offensive arms had been handed over to Russia. Ok, but how come the leader of Ukrainian communists counted 200 nukes? It seems that the nuke scandal will continue.

Your question, "Why have you not posted any links or sources from Russia or any former USSR states?"

Because you wouldn't believe them either!

Even the Russians admit the guy was selling arms and the Ukraine is missing nukes.

Thank you for such a large font, but i think you forgotten i am still young, so can see well.

To start with i am better familiar with Russian papers, because i speak and read Russian almost fluently

Secondly if you read again what you wrote in very very large font and in bald "Bout was involved in arms sales,"He was delivering "

Can you please point out which word translates into selling arms??

Again for the 6th time, yes he was somehow involved, but how is a speculation. Again, was he the main man, the middle man or the delivery man.??

The quotes you provided clearly states and i emphasize "involved" and "deliver", which hardly specify's a FACT of what his actual involvement was/is.

Nukes missing, does not automatically translate to being stolen or up for sale,only because using common sense and logic, if those nukes were for sale rest assured terrorists would have already used a few, not to mention Ukrain would not be on a watch list but more like "behind the bars" list

Do you really think USA and the rest of the world would allow for nukes to be so easily sold and purchased?

I think it might be the time you stop trying to twist what is printed and accept the fact that you do not know and can only speculate what his involvement was.

PS. Funny enough the day he was extradited, Russian channel( the main news channel from Moscow) disappeared from Sophon Cable and replaced with some Thai "pretty girls" show

You asked me to post some Russian sources so I did. As to your question about "Can you please point out which word translates into selling arms?"

Yes I can. Quote from Pravda, "Bout was involved in arms sales," I think being involved in arms sales means, selling arms. What do you think it means.

The world is very concerned about the 200 missing nukes. I don't know why you don't know this.

Your other question about was he "the main man, the middle man or the delivery man?"

If you go to Singapore with drugs it will not make any difference if you are the main man, middle man or delivery man. They will still hang you.

If you go to Columbia with a cargo or arms for the FARC it does not make any difference if you are the main man, middle man or the delivery man. You will go to jail for a very long time. I mean you can only live so many years. The main man gets 200 sentence, the middle man 100 and the delivery man 50 years. You are still an illegal gun runner if you are the main man, middle man or delivery man. You are a bad boy and will go to jail for a long time.

No, being involved means having some involvement, which incudes but does not limit to being the actual sales rep, the manager, the delivery guy, the order taking guy, the customer service guy etc

I do not know how you can even compare Singapore and drugs and Arms dealing, not to mention again there is no hard evidence as yet of anything.

As i said you can twist the words, and speculate whatever you like, but unless there is hard evidence-its all a speculation and allegations.

Read a website about him and then tell me how his story is any harder fact then the story's you have provided http://victorbout.com/

[kuffki]

Kuffki is playing at a losing game of semantics ....

He admits Bout was a gunrunner but thinks somehow that being a gunrunner isn't the same as selling guns. (note --- the statements from all over place Bout as an arms merchant dealing to some of the dirtiest wars in the world (child soldiers etc).

Now --- for those few folks that thought that Bout was going to be a major political scandal hurting US-Russian diplomacy we need only look at Russia allowing NATO to use Russia as a route to supply NATO forces in Afghanistan.

i am sorry but your summary is completely incorrect.

I never said or admitted he was a gun runner. i clearly said and this would be the 7th time, i have no doubt he was involved in the operation, however in what capacity is another matter. And i am not going to speculate according to allegations with no evidence as to his guilt.

Russian press pretty much confirmed that he was involved but does not say in what capacity, they also state he delivered which could mean he was just that - the delivery man.

Being the "man" and delivery man are 2 very very different things.

[jdinasia]

Kuffki is playing at a losing game of semantics ....

He admits Bout was a gunrunner but thinks somehow that being a gunrunner isn't the same as selling guns. (note --- the statements from all over place Bout as an arms merchant dealing to some of the dirtiest wars in the world (child soldiers etc).

Now --- for those few folks that thought that Bout was going to be a major political scandal hurting US-Russian diplomacy we need only look at Russia allowing NATO to use Russia as a route to supply NATO forces in Afghanistan.

i am sorry but your summary is completely incorrect.

I never said or admitted he was a gun runner. i clearly said and this would be the 7th time, i have no doubt he was involved in the operation, however in what capacity is another matter. And i am not going to speculate according to allegations with no evidence as to his guilt.

Russian press pretty much confirmed that he was involved but does not say in what capacity, they also state he delivered which could mean he was just that - the delivery man.

Being the "man" and delivery man are 2 very very different things.

LOL --- so let's see without any "hard evidence" you summarily state that the man is involved with gun running. Being a knowing "mule" does in fact make him an integral part of the gun running business (delivery man LOL).

Please feel free to read the statements made in the OP, if we can assume that they can present the statements they claim that Bout made, then there is all the evidence you need. Again, you are playing a losing game of semantics since you yourself without any "hard evidence" claim he is involved

edit to correct drug/gun typo

Edited November 21, 2010 by jdinasia

[kuffki]

Kuffki is playing at a losing game of semantics ....

He admits Bout was a gunrunner but thinks somehow that being a gunrunner isn't the same as selling guns. (note --- the statements from all over place Bout as an arms merchant dealing to some of the dirtiest wars in the world (child soldiers etc).

Now --- for those few folks that thought that Bout was going to be a major political scandal hurting US-Russian diplomacy we need only look at Russia allowing NATO to use Russia as a route to supply NATO forces in Afghanistan.

i am sorry but your summary is completely incorrect.

I never said or admitted he was a gun runner. i clearly said and this would be the 7th time, i have no doubt he was involved in the operation, however in what capacity is another matter. And i am not going to speculate according to allegations with no evidence as to his guilt.

Russian press pretty much confirmed that he was involved but does not say in what capacity, they also state he delivered which could mean he was just that - the delivery man.

Being the "man" and delivery man are 2 very very different things.

LOL --- so let's see without any "hard evidence" you summarily state that the man is involved with gun running. Being a knowing "mule" does in fact make him an integral part of the gun running business (delivery man LOL).

Please feel free to read the statements made in the OP, if we can assume that they can present the statements they claim that Bout made, then there is all the evidence you need. Again, you are playing a losing game of semantics since you yourself without any "hard evidence" claim he is involved

edit to correct drug/gun typo

You can twist and turn however you see it fits you best. Bottom line is all you are doing is speculating.

If you actually bother to read my first on the matter, you will see why i believe he is involved, which has nothing to do with so called evidence.

[mark45y]

Response to Kuffki.

I assume you know that Pravda is a Russian newspaper. Below are some quotes.

"I think that this is a political anti-Russian action, the goal of which is to strengthen the American influence on the Russian political establishment. It is obvious that Bout was involved in arms sales, but he could not cause severe damage to the Americans. He was delivering outdated arms mostly to those groups that were not struggling against US interests. Bout was proceeding from the paying capacity of his customers in his business."

Pyotr Simonenko, the leader of the Ukrainian Communist Party released a sensational statement on Wednesday. In his words, there were 2400 nuclear warheads in Ukraine, although the export of only 2200 of them was officially documented. Simonenko claimed that nobody knows where 200 Soviet-era nukes in Ukraine are.

The official reaction followed the next day, but it was a rather weak one. Deputy chief of the Ukrainian Army Headquarters, Nikolay Goncharenko, declared that Simonenko's statement regarding the disappearance of the nuclear weapons from the territory of Ukraine was absolutely groundless. The high-ranking military official stated that all weapons of the trilateral agreement concerning the execution of the contract for strategic offensive arms had been handed over to Russia. Ok, but how come the leader of Ukrainian communists counted 200 nukes? It seems that the nuke scandal will continue.

Your question, "Why have you not posted any links or sources from Russia or any former USSR states?"

Because you wouldn't believe them either!

Even the Russians admit the guy was selling arms and the Ukraine is missing nukes.

Thank you for such a large font, but i think you forgotten i am still young, so can see well.

To start with i am better familiar with Russian papers, because i speak and read Russian almost fluently

Secondly if you read again what you wrote in very very large font and in bald "Bout was involved in arms sales,"He was delivering "

Can you please point out which word translates into selling arms??

Again for the 6th time, yes he was somehow involved, but how is a speculation. Again, was he the main man, the middle man or the delivery man.??

The quotes you provided clearly states and i emphasize "involved" and "deliver", which hardly specify's a FACT of what his actual involvement was/is.

Nukes missing, does not automatically translate to being stolen or up for sale,only because using common sense and logic, if those nukes were for sale rest assured terrorists would have already used a few, not to mention Ukrain would not be on a watch list but more like "behind the bars" list

Do you really think USA and the rest of the world would allow for nukes to be so easily sold and purchased?

I think it might be the time you stop trying to twist what is printed and accept the fact that you do not know and can only speculate what his involvement was.

PS. Funny enough the day he was extradited, Russian channel( the main news channel from Moscow) disappeared from Sophon Cable and replaced with some Thai "pretty girls" show

You asked me to post some Russian sources so I did. As to your question about "Can you please point out which word translates into selling arms?"

Yes I can. Quote from Pravda, "Bout was involved in arms sales," I think being involved in arms sales means, selling arms. What do you think it means.

The world is very concerned about the 200 missing nukes. I don't know why you don't know this.

Your other question about was he "the main man, the middle man or the delivery man?"

If you go to Singapore with drugs it will not make any difference if you are the main man, middle man or delivery man. They will still hang you.

If you go to Columbia with a cargo or arms for the FARC it does not make any difference if you are the main man, middle man or the delivery man. You will go to jail for a very long time. I mean you can only live so many years. The main man gets 200 sentence, the middle man 100 and the delivery man 50 years. You are still an illegal gun runner if you are the main man, middle man or delivery man. You are a bad boy and will go to jail for a long time.

No, being involved means having some involvement, which incudes but does not limit to being the actual sales rep, the manager, the delivery guy, the order taking guy, the customer service guy etc

I do not know how you can even compare Singapore and drugs and Arms dealing, not to mention again there is no hard evidence as yet of anything.

As i said you can twist the words, and speculate whatever you like, but unless there is hard evidence-its all a speculation and allegations.

Read a website about him and then tell me how his story is any harder fact then the story's you have provided http://victorbout.com/

Even the Russians admit the man was selling arms.

There is a big difference between hundreds of news websites, newspapers and TV stations that have to check facts and are bound by libel and slander laws. And the man's own personal web site.

News sources in the west don't have a political agenda for the most part. They want blood and human interest and corruption. It does not make any difference what side. They jumped on the prison stories from Iraq and Git mo. They ran photos of the American female soldier who abused prisoners. All they want is readership. Having said that they fact check what they write. If they don't some other newspaper calls them on it. Big story both ways.

There is nothing more that US newspapers love than a conspiracy. If they could prove Bout was innocent and the US government was wrong it would be front page news. I don't think you grasp this attitude among western journalists.

The Washington Post brought down a President. He had to resign or be kicked out of office. They proved he was a crook.

Bill Clinton lied and was impeached. It was newspapers that caused the scandal. They reported on the stain on the blue dress.

Mrs Obama was killed in the press for her extravagant birthday party in Spain.

After OJ got off the press crucified the government and DA for being buffoons in court. Now they are vilifying US government airport security.

There is an adversarial relationship between the press and the American government. I don't think you have an understanding of that. Perhaps the part of the world you come from has a government controlled press. I don't know. It is not that way in the US.

[kuffki]

Even the Russians admit the man was selling arms.

There is a big difference between hundreds of news websites, newspapers and TV stations that have to check facts and are bound by libel and slander laws. And the man's own personal web site.

again Russians say "involved" and "delivered", having courier company, this is what business does, it delivers

Here are some facts for you

This is how Victor Bout story began

This is how his wealth was created

Here is some witnesses and funny enough for a crime with so much evidence, Thailand could not charge him with anything. The rest of the world could not charge him with anything, only USA has all the "evidence"

[kuffki]

Continue from previous post

Here is your evidence

Some speculations for you, especially after 2mins

Some indication of being just a delivery man

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Who has he upset really????

If you need more, i am happy to dig little more for you

[kuffki]

What are the real charges????And what is the evidence???

Now, here is a proof he was released but only detained due to request from USA

[mark45y]

Are these all from Bout's own website? If not where please?

[kuffki]

Are these all from Bout's own website? If not where please?

hmmmm youtube BBC World,RT

Can you not see the news channel origin?

Make sure to see them all, from post 142, 143 and 144

Edited November 21, 2010 by kuffki

[kuffki]

Another very interesting fact. If he was what is claimed and knew who of who, then how could you explain the hijacking of his plane

and to make it even more interesting this is an interview with a man who wrote the book and claims to have all the evidence Douglas Farah

[kuffki]

Here is Douglas Farah saying on public TV that he never said that Victor Bout did anything illegal, but what he thinks bout did was rather "immoral." Farah stated in an interview to the Russian TV network NTV that he is not aware of Victor Bout violating any laws or sanctions, but he accused Victor of doing immoral things. Farah did not know that the telephone interview was a aired live and that Richard Chichakli was the person on the other end. It is important to note that Farah committed perjury when he testified before the US congress and stated under oath that he knew for a fact that Victor Bout sold arms to almost all organizations on the US terrorist list. Farah testimonies of 2005 resulted in the action against Chichakli, while the 2008 testimony is likely to set Victor Bout free!

[mark45y]

One video is of Bout talking in Prison. No surprise,

The next is a Russian report (they wanted him free).

He worked for and against the Taliban. And for and against the Northern Alliance. No surprise about the hijack.

The Farah interview is I think in Russian. I don't speak Russian. Sorry. I did find an article from Farah in August of this year. Quoting, “Well, it is a day I had long predicted would never occur, but I have never been happier to be wrong. A Thai appeals court today ruled the Russian weapons merchant Viktor Bout could be extradited to stand trial in the United States.

Bout not only supplied the Taliban and the FARC in Colombia, both designated terrorist organizations. He also helped arm some of the most murderous regimes and groups in Africa (Charles Taylor, Mubut Sese Seko the RUF, UNITA etc.) and the genocidal regime in Sudan.

Bout's extradition request is based on an elaborate and successful operation by the DEA's Special Operations Division, where informants posed as representatives of the FARC seeking to buy weapons to fight in Colombia, and specifically to kill Americans. Bout took the bait and arrived in Bangkok March 2008 with a laptop full of pictures of the toys he could deliver to them, including unmanned drones, RPGs and the promise of surface-to-air missiles.

When he finished his presentation and sales pitch he was arrested by Thai police, having said more than sufficient to build a case. He then spent the next 2.5 years fighting extradition to the United States, where similar cases, using similar tactics, have led to quick convictions. In the end, although more firmly attached back to the Russian intelligence structure, his willingness to deal with anyone cost him his freedom.

End of Farah quote.

I also have a very slow internet connection because I live in the jungle. I really don't have the ability to watch utube very well. If you want to post any others and have me comment find me a transcript.

Edited November 21, 2010 by mark45y

[Coolpix]

I remembered that I've read a few years ago,that USA manufacturing russian Ak-47 inside USA (in Nevada) and selling it in huge numbers all over world, especially to South America,(including probably Columbia)

I just checked on Internet and found 16 factories all over USA making , improving,modifying and selling them.

Here is link

http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Manufacturers.php

I think it more factories in USA producing AK-47, than in whole world...