Loy Krathong Meets Wild Wild West

[chiangmaibruce]

We were out in the soi last night with the neighbours and letting off a few crackers with the kids. Saw our neighbour outside this morning and Mrs CMB and I went to say hello. She showed us something in her hand - a projectile - I would say a 9mm pistol bullet. She said she was watching TV after the fireworks and something hit her on the face ... she then found the bullet on the floor.

I had to admit I found it a bit far-fetched so went into her living room to see the fresh hole in the ceiling. Yes, some fool had run out of fireworks and fired their gun in the air, with the bullet going up, coming down and piecing her roof and ceiling. Luckily it just grazed her face. This was not out in the farmlands - this was in the suburbs of Chiang Mai. Don't look up this evening folks.

[BillR]

the laws of physics make her story impossible, unless her roof is made of tissue paper.

Edited November 22, 2010 by BillR

[No1]

the laws of physics make her story impossible, unless her roof is made of tissue paper.

BillR, I doubt that you calculated the bullet's kinetic energy, neither do we know anything about the roof's materials and structure, so my suggestion is to be careful to mention the laws of physics in this context. You might be interested to read this:

http://www.straightd...n-it-comes-down

or

http://blogs.chron.c...azardous_a.html

Or on mythbusters there is another episode on this, here is a very brief conclusion:

Adam brought out plan B: a balloon attached to an instrumented platform that could drop bullets remotely. The platform had a wireless video camera that fed an image of the platform, including the altitude gauge, down to Adam.

The bullets were dropped in a bundle from a height of 400 ft. The .03-06 made a 2" hole. The 9mm made a 2" hole as well, matching up perfectly with the actual 9mm bullet firing.

For the first time ever, they deemed this one busted, plausible, and confirmed. All of their tests, from the pig's head to the 9mm firing to the balloon, showed that a bullet fired perfectly straight up into the air is not lethal. However, it is also very difficult to shoot perfectly straight up into the air and, with the cases cited by Dr. Mohler, they have confirmed that people have died from bullets falling from the sky.

I believe the story. It seems the roof helped to speed down the bullet leading to a non-lethal impact.

Edited November 22, 2010 by No1

[chiangmaibruce]

the laws of physics make her story impossible, unless her roof is made of tissue paper.

The roof was made of very old fibro cement so relatively thin and quite brittle, and what happened, happened

[Dellboy218]

I think the Mythbusters did this one andf if I remember rightly it all came down to whether the bullet was fired directly up and came down under gravity which wasnt too much of a problem or whether the gun was fired at an angle and the bullet was still on a ballistic trajectory (if I have the term right) in which case it still had lots of energy and was still lethal.

I was in Pai last night and watched a rocket fired horizontally from one of the bamboo bridges, it looked like it bounced off the bar front in one of bamboo resorts, it still had plenty of oompphh left in it. Lots of people about, I think it missed everyone, very lucky!

[jdinasia]

I think the Mythbusters did this one andf if I remember rightly it all came down to whether the bullet was fired directly up and came down under gravity which wasnt too much of a problem or whether the gun was fired at an angle and the bullet was still on a ballistic trajectory (if I have the term right) in which case it still had lots of energy and was still lethal.

I was in Pai last night and watched a rocket fired horizontally from one of the bamboo bridges, it looked like it bounced off the bar front in one of bamboo resorts, it still had plenty of oompphh left in it. Lots of people about, I think it missed everyone, very lucky!

Right (basically), so unless the person was standing on her cement roof and aiming down (in which case the bullet would have been mangled .....) Well .... Penn and Teller have a show called Bullsh!t!!!

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

In my travels on the bicycle I have seen a good number of spent casings. Mostly small rounds.

A few years back I found a few spent 5.56 shells on the Canal road.

I think the noise cover of fireworks let some people think they can fire off a few rounds and nobody will be wiser.

Odds are never that great of being hit by a stray but it does happen.

Didn't a Canadian guy buy the farm a year or so ago on Chang Klan road?

[MESmith]

Was in Phnom Penh for Songkran 13 yrs ago.  Sat outside a cafe near the river in the evening, watching the tracer bullets arc across the sky.  Who needs fireworks....... 

These weren't single rounds, but something more like a machine gun or automatic assault rifle.

[mcgriffith]

Well, I'm just glad the OP's loved one survived. I certainly believe him.

Looking at the 3 links kindly provided above by No1, I came to the conclusion that:

1) People who fire firearms into the air for celebratory purposes should be smeared with rancid hamburger, tied up and put into a very small cage with 2 dozen large sewer rats for a week or so.

2) People who believe that firing firearms in the air, whatever the caliber or bullet weight, is harmless....should submit to a nice experiment.

3) People who believe Myth Busters should should switch to a more believeable show, such as something with Harry Potter, or Paris Hilton.

[Dellboy218]

Well, I'm just glad the OP's loved one survived. I certainly believe him.

Looking at the 3 links kindly provided above by No1, I came to the conclusion that:

1) People who fire firearms into the air for celebratory purposes should be smeared with rancid hamburger, tied up and put into a very small cage with 2 dozen large sewer rats for a week or so.

2) People who believe that firing firearms in the air, whatever the caliber or bullet weight, is harmless....should submit to a nice experiment.

3) People who believe Myth Busters should should switch to a more believeable show, such as something with Harry Potter, or Paris Hilton.

Personally I was under the impression that a ballistic trajectory was an arc. That being the case as Mythbuster say it is quite plausible and not to be dismissed out of hand. Where you get Paris Hilton from I do not know but I do not think she was included in the original post unless Harry had something to do with it.

[jdinasia]

Well, I'm just glad the OP's loved one survived. I certainly believe him.

Looking at the 3 links kindly provided above by No1, I came to the conclusion that:

1) People who fire firearms into the air for celebratory purposes should be smeared with rancid hamburger, tied up and put into a very small cage with 2 dozen large sewer rats for a week or so.

2) People who believe that firing firearms in the air, whatever the caliber or bullet weight, is harmless....should submit to a nice experiment.

3) People who believe Myth Busters should should switch to a more believeable show, such as something with Harry Potter, or Paris Hilton.

And what about people that actually have even a minor grasp on physics?

[Spoonman]

Yeah nah, Ballistics is what I do for a living (albeit stopping projectiles with hard armour), im calling bullshit as well.

Post up a pic of the projectile.

[nikster]

And what about people that actually have even a minor grasp on physics?

Not sure what you're saying...

A bullet fired at a 45 degree angle would go pretty far, and if it hits a roof it might penetrate that roof. Makes a lot of (common) sense to me.

If we ignore air resistance for a moment - let's say the remaining downforce makes up for that - at 45 degrees half of the bullet's speed as it were would be horizontal, and if hits a roof, well, it might very well get through. So it would be like firing a bullet at half speed.

Do your homework!

[Tywais]

I won't go into the details of terminal velocity etc. but the below article from Argonne National Labs indicate a terminal velocity, taking into account air friction, would be approximately 67.7 meters/second depending on bullet size (mass) and initial velocity. That would be 241 kms/hour (150 mph) at impact point assuming it went straight up and down. The momentum would be 3.2 kg*m. But as mentioned, the horizontal velocity (angular) will have a strong effect on total impact velocity.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy05/phy05051.htm

[jdinasia]

I won't go into the details of terminal velocity etc. but the below article from Argonne National Labs indicate a terminal velocity, taking into account air friction, would be approximately 67.7 meters/second depending on bullet size (mass) and initial velocity. That would be 241 kms/hour (150 mph) at impact point assuming it went straight up and down. The momentum would be 3.2 kg*m. But as mentioned, the horizontal velocity (angular) will have a strong effect on total impact velocity.

http://www.newton.de...05/phy05051.htm

Right ... and when you take passing through something solid ..........

[mcgriffith]

I'll only add one comment, before turning it over to the eggspurts.

(I have about 35 years as a small arms practitioner- marksman, reloader and life time shooter of various weapons- pistol, small bore and high power rifle, and shotgun BTW).

In a perfect world, if you constructed a jig that held a weapon so that it fired perfectly straight up.....and there was zero wind- and that means zero wind from ground level up to terminal height, which could easily be as much as 2 or 3 kilometers....and the bullet simply stopped, and fell straight back down, base first.....uh sorry people. This is fantasy.

There is always wind. Which deflects a bullet's path.

No one shoots straight up, perfectly straight up.

Thus there is always some wind deflection, and angle deflection.

And the bullet will more often then not ascribe a parabola, and will come down point first more often than not (and I am being very charitable in this observation).

And it will thus have more than the velocity than if it had simply been dropped off the Empire State Building, base first, onto the sidewalk below. But even so- I will take a bet. Anyone who wants to stand on the sidewalk at the base of the Empire State Building in NY- I will drop point first a Sierra 168g Match Grade hollow point boattail .308 caliber bullet on your head.

If you survive, you will be drooling into a bib in a wheel chair for the rest of your life.

Believe me, shooting guns into the air is a worldwide scourge that kills innocents worldwide.

The first rule of safe gun handling is point the gun in a safe direction always.

The air is not a safe direction.

[Tywais]

(I have about 35 years as a small arms practitioner- marksman, reloader and life time shooter of various weapons- pistol, small bore and high power rifle, and shotgun BTW).

Hey McG, I think we would get along well - you mirror my background quite closely in that area. Grew up in Texas around guns, then the military - marksmanship medals in M16 & M1 Carbine, then my own collection including bull barrow scoped target pistols, muzzle loader flint lok, etc.

[anonymouse]

Maybe Chiang Mai Bruce's neighbour found a bullet, scratched her face and put a hole in her ceiling so she had something to make small talk about with her neighbours

[WarpSpeed]

I'll only add one comment, before turning it over to the eggspurts.

(I have about 35 years as a small arms practitioner- marksman, reloader and life time shooter of various weapons- pistol, small bore and high power rifle, and shotgun BTW).

In a perfect world, if you constructed a jig that held a weapon so that it fired perfectly straight up.....and there was zero wind- and that means zero wind from ground level up to terminal height, which could easily be as much as 2 or 3 kilometers....and the bullet simply stopped, and fell straight back down, base first.....uh sorry people. This is fantasy.

There is always wind. Which deflects a bullet's path.

No one shoots straight up, perfectly straight up.

Thus there is always some wind deflection, and angle deflection.

And the bullet will more often then not ascribe a parabola, and will come down point first more often than not (and I am being very charitable in this observation).

And it will thus have more than the velocity than if it had simply been dropped off the Empire State Building, base first, onto the sidewalk below. But even so- I will take a bet. Anyone who wants to stand on the sidewalk at the base of the Empire State Building in NY- I will drop point first a Sierra 158g Match Grade hollow point boattail .308 caliber bullet on your head.

If you survive, you will be drooling into a bib in a wheel chair for the rest of your life.

Believe me, shooting guns into the air is a worldwide scourge that kills innocents worldwide.

The first rule of safe gun handling is point the gun in a safe direction always.

The air is not a safe direction.

Some of what you say is correct but a static bullet no longer being propelled will not fall point first it will fall heavy end first which is the base, simple physics and the premise behind using stabilizer fins on a rocket otherwise the rocket will turn in flight and fly heavy end first which is the end with the propellant as propulsion acts like weight in that case in the form of thrust. Rifling replaces the need for stabilizer fins. But............

Even propelled bullets towards the middle of their maximum flight distance no longer fly point first and begin to tumble as they loose force and rotational mass to keep them flying.. They don't have to be point first to penetrate and kill and most aren't depending on how close you are to the target, it is also necessary to take into account rifling and when a bullets rotational effects dissipate which occurs far before propulsion ends..

I believe the story is true and is possible. Her claim of it hitting her in the face indicates that it had an angular trajectory through her roof as simply falling through the roof would have hit her in the head or shoulder instead..

Conclusion a dropped bullet will not fall point first without a strong rotational effect on it.. So it's just a small lump of lead and might give you a headache but not severe injuries unless some sort of really freak accident, as even penetration would be minimal if at all..

Edited November 22, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[mcgriffith]

Well, aside from the theory and abstract physics of this issue, I can add one other somber observation.

I lived in Southern California for much of my life.

For years, gangbangers in LA would light up the skies on 4th of July and New Years with AK47s and Glock 9s.

And every year, some little kid in a park, or a pregnant mom, or some guy just walking down a street would be killed or seriously injured by this practice. Bullets falling from the sky.

So the LAPD started a community information campaign to let people know that discharging firearms into the air is not just illegal, as it has always been, but that it is lethal to innocents- who are members of the same community. The message was- you are killing your kid brother, or his little friend.

The incidents have fallen way off since they started this community policing effort.

That's it for me on this topic. Be safe out there, and happy Loy Krathong to you all.

:jap:

[WarpSpeed]

They can kill and have, when the victim was either outside or under very thin overheads just not likely in a straight down trajectory or as straight down as is possible which doesn't really exist. But, for the sake of clarity straight down meaning once the apex of momentum has been reached but not necessarily in a direct path downwards from their original firing point and then penetrate through a roof with enough momentum to seriously injure or kill..

There's no question nor argument that it's a foolish and irresponsible abuse of firearms in any case..

[elektrified]

In my travels on the bicycle I have seen a good number of spent casings. Mostly small rounds.

A few years back I found a few spent 5.56 shells on the Canal road.

I think the noise cover of fireworks let some people think they can fire off a few rounds and nobody will be wiser.

Odds are never that great of being hit by a stray but it does happen.

Didn't a Canadian guy buy the farm a year or so ago on Chang Klan road?

I think the Canadian took a direct hit sitting in back of a songtaew if I recall correctly. If that is what you are referring to.

[jaideeguy]

Happens all the time in Manila, where guns are the culturally acceptable way to celebrate all holidays including Xmas.

[Ulysses G.]

Happens all the time in Manila, where guns are the culturally acceptable way to celebrate all holidays including Xmas.

When I used to go there, they were also considered a good way for some taxi-drivers to celebrate the arrival of a lone Westerner in the back of their cab.

[ThaiWx]

Kind of interesting reading on the subject. http://en.wikipedia....bratory_gunfire

Edited November 23, 2010 by ThaiWx

[jackr]

Yeah nah, Ballistics is what I do for a living (albeit stopping projectiles with hard armour), im calling bullshit as well.

Sounds like the experience is working against you. Fired at an angle, easily doable.

[No1]

Kind of interesting reading on the subject. http://en.wikipedia....bratory_gunfire

Nice link. Thanks for sharing.

Most interesting:

The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds. The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.

I guess this issue is sorted.

[nikster]

In a perfect world, if you constructed a jig that held a weapon so that it fired perfectly straight up.....

Dude... we're talking about drunk loi krathong revelers. You're lucky if they're not shooting horizontal...

Anyway issue is resolved, as anonymouse put it so well the neighbor didn't just scratch her face with a bullet and made a hole in the ceiling because that's the first thing that came to her mind when she was sitting there bored...

[rodcourt49]

In my travels on the bicycle I have seen a good number of spent casings. Mostly small rounds.

A few years back I found a few spent 5.56 shells on the Canal road.

I think the noise cover of fireworks let some people think they can fire off a few rounds and nobody will be wiser.

Odds are never that great of being hit by a stray but it does happen.

Didn't a Canadian guy buy the farm a year or so ago on Chang Klan road?

I think the Canadian took a direct hit sitting in back of a songtaew if I recall correctly. If that is what you are referring to.

..the deceased was in the back of a song taew heading east on San Kamphaeng Road..hit on downward trajectory of bullet..initially thought to be a sniper but later ruled out and put down to reckless discharge from estimated distance of 400 metres away.

As mentioned previously in another thread, a young girl in Australia died under similar circumstances when as a pssaenger in the rear of a moving vehicle was struck in the neck by bullet entering through the rear quarter vent window. Police later found the culprit and site. FYO.

[junglechef]

Happens all the time in Manila, where guns are the culturally acceptable way to celebrate all holidays including Xmas.

in Mexico too