Ladymen In Thailand

[syd barrett]

Since I arrived in Thailand for the first time a few months ago I have been amazed at how many ladymen there are. They are in every town and city, they are entertainers, boxers, models and bar(girls). Why so many?

In the U.K. a very small percentage of the population are born with a 'feeling' they are in the wrong sex body and take hormones and eventually have a sex-change. I don't know the percentage, yet it is very tiny.

In Thailand it seems that the percentage is a great deal higher. I cannot believe for one minute a man becomes a ladyman for financial reasons. So why so many?

Are they by chance Gay men (the submissive 'receiver' or passive partner) who believe they should be a women? Even this theory does not hold well because in the U.K. there are many Gay men who are the passive partner yet are proud of their masculinity.

I have tried to discuss this with Thais, and the feedback I get is that this is not a sexuality issue, more of the 'born in the wrong sex body' dilemma. I have been told that potential future ladymen often display a feminine tendency from an early age. eg. small boys playing 'girly' games with girls instead of rough games with the lads.

My conclusion might be incorrect, but I suggest that there is a genetic link to gender dysphoria. What do YOU think?

[Mig15]

Syd, congratulations on a sensible post. Gender confusion is more common in Thailand for men and women, the women are called “Toms.” Maybe it is more common because it is more socially acceptable. It’s that old nature / nurture debate. So if you feel the need to try on a skirt, slip on some high heels – Syd, go for it!

[The_Moog]

Can't there be distinct areas for members who do and do not live in Thailand?

The ones who don't can then burble on about Paedophilia and Ladyboys and the rest of us can work out where to go for our group outing on Constitution Day tomorrow.

[KevinN]

MOOG; you would think that would be the way it is, since the name, But seems like anyone can be anywhere,and you never know where they live. would be nice for this to be an EXPAT forum and people that live other places could not be called expats.

[The_Moog]

The Moog's HOLY GRAIL in Bangkok is to find a daytime go go bar where I can have a beer. Then I can go home to the wife at 7pm, all normal like and she will know not a thing !

Oh, and it has to be unclad - I can't be having all this preposterous bathing suit malarkey.

Anyone know one?

but I digress....Syd:..... Richard Hotman, 'Thailand's third sex' THB 495 at Asia Books, will answer all those fascinating questions that keep you lying awake at night,..... with I daresay your hands wandering down to your midparts

[Pink Mist]

I get the feeling that there is an increasing resentment by some, to people who post on the forum and arn't expats.

There are 6104 registered members and I noticed in the "who's who, how long have you been here and what do you do" section only a handfull of replies so I dont think the amount of " fair dinkum expats " who post is huge.

The Thai's that post here, not expats, they out.

Newbie overseas wants to ask a question about Visa, not expat, you out.

Someone with question about nightlife in LOS, sorry you tourist, you out.

Gotta computer question you expat, no, sorry you out.

Someone gets Thai citizenship, that one's dicey maybe not expat, you out.

I could go on but you should get the gist.

Myself I am married to a Thai Lady and we live in Adelaide and are a few years away from living back in LOS full time. We have relatives and investments there and travel back quite a bit, interesting thought my Wife is an expat in OZ, still wouldnt qualify for your exclusive little section.

Maybe you should put that to the Administrators and the other members who want an exclusive Expat Forum for some sort of a descision, have a poll, that could clear things up.

Personally I think the diversity of members and their abodes adds to the Forums' appeal and would suffer greatly if all you had to talk about was the venu for the "Constitution Day" group outing.

Maybe the theme of the Forum should be clarified, if the expats are getting upset as it now reflects expats and people with a link to Thailand.

Sorry to hijack the thread, maybe it should be reassigned another gender.

bronco

[The_Moog]

The 'Visa' section is the goldmine here, and that should be open to all.

Otherwise we locals need a 'club within a club'. Something exclusive - we don't need to ruminate on Ladyboys or Paedophiles, we need to know where the cut-price Dinty Moore stew is on special offer.

Since only we locals (especially me) are frequent buyers of all the Sponsors products, as I expect is Kevin, we need to have our privacy.

[KevinN]

I really do not think that queerism is as widely accepted here as some people think, But the Thai will not speak up about a lot of things even when it pertains to them personally.

I am american and as most know,if an american has an opinion on a subject,they speak up,that is why they live in a democracy and why a democracy was formed in the USA.

Others with out the protection of free speech do not tend to do it as much.

I hear my wife and her friends talk and they do not seem to think that cross dressing or sex change is an alright thing to do and do make fun of "ladymen" and talk down about them and "Toms".

I think it is alright to post,no matter where you are,but you should not say what is cool and what is not unless you live here all the time and have to put up with it,be it good or bad.

and for Bronco,,I see no need to post on" who is who" but for your info,I have not been out of Thailand for over 3 years this time and it is really no ones business what I do,but I take no work from a Thai. and all my money comes into the country.and none leaves here. I am not a Thai, I do not want to be a Thai,and I do not pretend to be a Thai.and I would never work for Thai wages, or live in most Thai living conditions.

[Pink Mist]

Its not about being a Thai at all, its about being an expat in Thailand, that was my point.

I didn't mean anything else by my post, but have noticed a lot of this "we are expats attitude lately ".

It was meant to be a positive post and had nothing to do with queerism and I did say it should be shifted to another thread.

bronco

[The_Moog]

How remarkable that in a website sporting a giant logo saying "THAILAND EXPAT FORUM", there should be a sense that it is a Forum primarily designed for Expats in Thailand.

Quite extraordinary that anyone should make that deduction

Anyway - here's the apt Message Board for those who want to psycho-analyse the Thai male mind

www.bluester.thaiboy.net

[Doi Thong]

Syd ! You not in the right place to ask your question...it's too many narrow minded,old farts in here that know nothing about Thailand,but trying to be smart asses and flame others posts...anyway try bangkoktonight or nanaplaza forums.Cheers

[Larry]

Why the large number of ladyboys?

I would propose four reasons. Firstly, there is a long tradition in Thailand, dating back to the Sukkothai period. This is especially true in Northern Thailand. Ladyboys were (are?) thought of as a third gender, who had their roles in society, and were given acceptance, albeit limited. The second is that Thai men, due to physical factors, have an easier time passing as women. Thirdly, there is the easy access to cheap, domestically-produced hormones (over the counter). Finally, there is the emphasis on beauty that pervades Thai society. Beautiful women are generally held in high regard.

Many ladyboys today work in a host of "normal" professions. Unless you have been in Thailand for a long time, it is often very difficult to pick them out. They have a reputation for intelligence, creativity and hard work. They do not have an easy life, are often very loyal and loving someone who shows them love and caring.

It is quite unjust, in my opinion, that even those who undergo the operation are not allowed to change their ID cards or passports to reflect their chosen gender. In addition, they are not allowed to marry. Given the new Thai constitution with its guarantees of basic human rights, it is not impossible that this will change in the near future.

Meanwhile....for an open-minded man who perhaps is older and has already raised his family, a beautiful, intelligent ladyboy in her late 20s or 30s, educated and gainfully employed is not such a bad choice.

[The_Moog]

This is a specious topic.

Syd has simply got his facts wrong. Thailand is not full of ladyboys.

He says ladyboy boxers proliferate - .......THERE'S ONE ! (at the last count)

...and she doesn't box anymore.*

(Its like assuming Newcastle is full of football hooligans, just because we may see it once on television).

Pure sensationalism on Syd's part.

MOOG

*She has a restaurant on Ratchada, if anyone wants to get acquainted.

[syd barrett]

Notes on 'THE MOOG'

When I started this topic, it was done so in good faith, an intelligent piece about Khatoey in Thailand. If you are not interested, don't read the post and don't bother to post a reply.

'THE MOOG' has posted several replys, all poisonous, berating my post, first saying he wanted this to be an exclusive ex-pat forum etc. Then he posted even more absurd posts, it seems he cannot let the matter drop, yet he was the one who pooh, poohed this original post.

Here are some facts about 'THE MOOG':

His opening topics have always been absurd;

18 Nov: 'Clampdown on Thai nud_e Tits'

29 Nov: 'Homoeroticism in English Language Teaching': A particularly nasty, homophobic posting of no worth whatsoever. It received many strong and intelligent rebukes.

3 Dec: Another absurd topic about 'Dental Treatment' which was quite simply pathetic.

27 Nov: Yet 'THE MOOG' has enough energy to consider learning 'Muay Thai' boxing in Bangkok. A red herring post I fear.

I suggest that 'THE MOOG' is a poisonous goblin who hounds every decent and upright contributor to this forum. I think he has second sight, as his signature is 'SAVE THE MOOG'.

It might not be much longer until 'THE MOOG' is removed from this fine forum.

Yours sincerely, SB.

[Pink Mist]

I might have hi jacked the thread a bit Syd my apologies.

Didnt reply to the mooogs last drivel cause it had been said.

bronco

[The_Moog]

A poisonous goblin I may well be, but i'm a goblin that's sitting in Thailand right now and I don't see any Katoeys - and I didn't see any when I was out for lunch - (and I walked down Patpong 1 and up Taniya Silom).

Notable by their absence were the hordes of katoeys purportedly sporting boxing gloves.

Perhaps there aren't as many Ladyboys as you surmise, even though that's not the reply you want to hear.

I gave you the title of a book, feel free to buy it.

Or send me a few shillings and I will get one and send it to you.

Your point about my topics is well-made, they are all absolute codswallop.

MOOG

[Khun ?]

One word

NUTS - - - they have or had em

[KevinN]

KHUN, Hilarious,,,

And has been posted earlier by LARRY,ladymen were accepted in certain roles in different societies worldwide,,even in some Indian tribes in the old western united states.in the Cheyenne for one that I know of.

But just because I have raised my kids and am getting on in years is no sign I need to change my sexual orientation,as Khun said NUTS-they have or had em.

and looks like TOMY has resurfaced as Doi Thong.

[Guest IT Manager]

Syd, congratulations on a sensible post. Gender confusion is more common in Thailand for men and women, the women are called “Toms.” Maybe it is more common because it is more socially acceptable. It’s that old nature / nurture debate. So if you feel the need to try on a skirt, slip on some high heels – Syd, go for it!

I agree Syd, but please be careful. Nothing more disconcerting from what I have seen than a farang ladyman whose mascara clashes with his beard or his blue singlet. Just one step at a time.

I do remember reprimanding one of the kids in a computer class years ago for having eye shadow that was the wrong shade to work effectively with his school tie or his soccer uniform.

In my opinion take professional advice re shoes and accessories, and then work up to something off the cuff for a night out with the chaps so to speak.

Also Spy is preferred (result of survey) over Chang Beer. Less mess with lippy etc.

Good luck mate, and I reckon you must have big balls to try it. Be careful with those as well. Heels are best kept to a sensible mid height until you are used to the swing and shuffle step required to "pull it off" as it were. Recommend a shoulder bag also not a handbag. Easy to get a grip on from what I read.

[Guest IT Manager]

and looks like TOMY has resurfaced as Doi Thong.

Kevin are you sure about Tomy? The spelling was right, punctuation, no stupid words...? What happened? True enough he did post from the area I suggested he should go to and stay.

Hope it is.. can just see it now.. tears streaming down his puckered lil cheeks "OMG yes its' me....tomy"

Then I will can him again.

[singa-traz]

Also Spy is preferred (result of survey) over Chang Beer. Less mess with lippy etc.

You meant, Cooler Club ?

http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/io....html?record=54

[Johnny Moron]

I went out for a drink and a meal very late a few nights ago at a local isaan place not far from the airport.

Sitting at a table in front of ours was a man (a very beautiful man) wearing lipstick, rouge and everything else to make him look as attractive and feminine as possible.

Like I said, it was very late (probably about 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning), but the more I looked at this man and saw how completely relaxed he was in the company of his men and women friends, the more I realised that Thailand truly is amazing.

Not a hint of prejudice was shown to this individual; no man at my table displayed even the remotest desire to give him a second glance; and no one anywhere thought of getting a bit loud and "sorting him out".

In Thailand, boys become girls because they want to and because they're able to.

I do wonder though what happens to them as they age a little. In General, I seem to see many more young transvestites/transsexuals than older ones.

[moses]

Interesting reading...

If I should want to answer the question why there are so many ladyman in Thailand, I would go back in historie - learn the historical and cultural background. and then maybe come up with an answer.

I admire the freedom and acceptance Thai's show one another!

I have nothing more to say but if anybody know more about the cultural or historical background please do post it..... it is so interesting! Thanks

Moses

[Guest IT Manager]

I went out for a drink and a meal very late a few nights ago at a local isaan place not far from the airport.

Sitting at a table in front of ours was a man (a very beautiful man) wearing lipstick, rouge and everything else to make him look as attractive and feminine as possible.

Like I said, it was very late (probably about 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning), but the more I looked at this man and saw how completely relaxed he was in the company of his men and women friends, the more I realised that Thailand truly is amazing.

Not a hint of prejudice was shown to this individual; no man at my table displayed even the remotest desire to give him a second glance; and no one anywhere thought of getting a bit loud and "sorting him out".

In Thailand, boys become girls because they want to and because they're able to.

I do wonder though what happens to them as they age a little. In General, I seem to see many more young transvestites/transsexuals than older ones.

They become the partners of Thai and Foreign men, retire from the bars where they met them and live out their lives happily and accepted in the countryside where no one, me included, bothers them.

The lady who sells me my fresh vegetables is one of the most attractive katoeys I have ever met. She is a good friend to both my wife and myself as well as our sons.

I also think this is a silly thread but the basic point was sound. The katoeys I know in my village have extremely caring families and are themselves caring and helpful.

[the gentleman]

lol

[Candyflip]

Its not that Thailand has more ladyboys than other countries but its visible here. Somehow those pioneer ladyboys made their ways to have place in Thai society. Lot of them are very sucessful and that lead to the point that it doennot matter who you are, ladyboys,lesbians,gays, just be a good person then there is a place for you. More and more people feel comfy to reveal their true nature, that why its so visible here.

If you are gays in south america? You are probably be beated up by no reason. I have seen it when i was studying there almost 10 years ago. Maybe things had chanced now? I dont know?

[translator]

At the end of the day, its a life choice of being who you want to be.

If you become accepted within a culture for what you believe in, Mai pen Rai.

You can go on and on with this subject all over the world, be it behind closed doors or out in the open as in thailand.

Each one of us has a choice to accept the lifestyle within the culture we choose to live.

An alternative for you cringers of gender change to find a space on the planet free from daily life.

Ps - to remind you before you ask Moog ! I'm a bloke and married.

[maerim]

Sitting comfortably? then I will begin.

Another of my brother in laws, I have loads of em, is a ladyboy he used to be married (to a Thai woman) ended up getting stuffed by her and went on to become a very succesful ladyboy.

He/she has been all over the world and lives in Bangkok where he runs a tour business catering mainly to senior citizens from the states and they love him, and no not in the biblical sense either.

He/she is very intelligent, very highly thought of, well from what I have seen and in all the time I have known never seen him/her to suffer from any bigotry.

This of course might have something to do with all the money he has but who knows?

When he is up here he always stops the tour bus outside my better half's shop and the customers are unanimous in their praise for his professionalism.

Last week he flew up here for a short holiday with his husband and the husbands son from his previous marriage.

Confused yet?

[mrentoul]

the more I looked at this man and saw how completely relaxed he was in the company of his men and women friends, the more I realised that Thailand truly is amazing.

Well put. Sometimes when I get home at night I see women's shoes sitting outside the door.

I wonder: do they belong to a visitor - hopefully a girl - or to the guy I live with? Sometimes they are his...he's just parked them outside the door to get some air.

[sbk]

A few years ago I had all my western perceptions turned end over end. My husband and I had gone to a local temple festival and ran into one of the local katoeys, hanging out with his good friends; the local police. Well, needless to say, I was flabbergasted, the police were friends with the katoey! My husband looked at me and said in an exasperated tone, "Just because your friend is gay doesn't mean you are gay, this isn't america you know!" Well, that shut me up, didn't it? He was absolutely spot on, macho police in the US would never hang out with such an openly effeminate man. 'This is Thailand' has lots of different meanings!