No Degree = No Future ?

[stander]

Common sense would definitely dictate that an individual should obtain the best education possible.

In UK terms, for some that would be to complete school attendance as soon as legally possible, for others it would be O levels and for the rest it would be A levels and then in most cases on to university.

As a parent I definitely want my children to go as far as possible with their education and that means obtaining a degree.

However if for whatever reason they are not able to take advantage of a full education, I will support them in which every legitimate direction they choose.

[Moonrakers]

People without degrees are likely to have even less common sense (i.e. they did not have the sense to study harder and get into university themselves as its clearly in their interest).

That is a very narrow minded argument. There are numerous reasons why a person may not have gone to university. Personally, I don't stand bot the whole bitter sounding 'people with degrees have no common sense' nonsense, but then I don't do the reverse to those without degrees.

Whilst it's true that many privileged and not particularly smart people get to got through university, many more are there on merit.

And whilst it's true that many who don't have a degree may not the the sharpest out there, there are many more who just didn't have the opportunity.

You are showing quite a bit of ignorance to think "Why didn't they just go to university"

Edited December 15, 2010 by Moonrakers

[emsfeld]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

Plus the Bill Gates argument is frankly stupid- for every 1 Bill Gates, there are 30,000,000 mall security guards.

Yup. Couldnt agree more. There is a term for this that sums up these kind of arguments nicely: it's called survivorship bias. Plus for every Bill Gates I could probably name you 10 or more successful people WITH a degree. Arguments by reference to a person or group of people don't really count IMHO. Very easy to "disprove" by the contrary.

[stander]

A degree is required for many jobs, regardless of whether or not the degree actually applies to the job.

There is no denying they are used as a screening tool to quickly select qualified applicants.

All things being equal, like it or not most employers will hire the job applicant with the degree over the applicant without a degree.

[TAWP]

The moral of my story is many large corporations don't want your experience. Experience may be a drawback to hiring you. They want potential.

This is completely wrong in some sectors, for example software development.

If you want to hire someone without a degree and don't want - or the employee - to get hassled by the other staff for it, don't mention it to them...the employee will not mention it.

[craigt3365]

(I am not "quoting" a news source -- but there have been news reports in Thailand and reprinted on TVF of the "bought degrees" by Thais ... AND I have personal experience of having to fire a staff member (foreign) that bought a fake degree on KSR. There are also admissions of foreigners who used fake degrees on this site (and I think 2 that got caught for it by either MoL or MoE)

Fell free to use the search function

The days of buying a fake degree or teaching certificate in Khao San Road are virtually gone and Thai employers have become wise to these tricks. The employer now faces a hefty penalty for failing to ensure his employee is properly qualified which has caused a general wake up alarm amongst employers who previously would employ just about anyone to show that they had a 'farang' working for them. http://www.thaivisa.com/391.0.html

and

Khon Kaen - A criminal action is set to be taken against a private university in Khon Kaen provincefor "selling" bechalor's degrees to hundreds of buyers each for Bt100,000, an activist representing teachers in both private and government schools said yesterday.

This is so widespread and common that this one case won't change anything. The other problem being the money the applicants pay to actually get the jobs...with their fake degrees. It's a real problem for sure. And one that ultimately hurts Thailand's future. But no different than other countries, like China, where it is also a widespread practice.

As for the OP...there are lots of jobs that require no degree...and pay really well. University is not for everyone...and that's a good thing!

[GM1955]

I'd like to know how many Farangs have Degrees on this site.

Not the usual lies and reinventons that are normal in Forum life, but the truth,

Than again, you'll never get the truth. So I guess it's a mute, question.

People never tell the truth

Edited December 15, 2010 by GM1955

[stander]

GM1955

So let me get this straight, if a member of this forum replies in the positive, then he/she must be lying?

[jdinasia]

I'd like to know how many Farangs have Degrees on this site.

Not the usual lies and reinventons that are normal in Forum life, but the truth,

Than again, you'll never get the truth. So I guess it's a mute, question.

People never tell the truth

You have watched too many episodes of "House".

It isn't a "moot" question in that it is relevant to the conversation. The answer appears to be, many do and many do not.

[stander]

This is so widespread and common that this one case won't change anything. The other problem being the money the applicants pay to actually get the jobs...with their fake degrees. It's a real problem for sure. And one that ultimately hurts Thailand's future. But no different than other countries, like China, where it is also a widespread practice.

As for the OP...there are lots of jobs that require no degree...and pay really well. University is not for everyone...and that's a good thing!

The fake degree issue is a bit of a red herring here, as any reputable company will check the legitimacy of the degree.

There are agencies who specialise in this and they can get back to you within hours as to whether or not a degree is legitimate or not.

[jdinasia]

The fake degree issue is a bit of a red herring here, as any reputable company will check the legitimacy of the degree.

There are agencies who specialise in this and they can get back to you within hours as to whether or not a degree is legitimate or not.

Actually, it is a bit of a pain in the tail-end to try and verify degrees and references in Thailand for small companies and schools etc. It still NEEDS to be done, but it isn't fast nor easy. Using agencies in other countries can be a pain too.

The fake degree issue isn't what this thread is about (nor about purchased degrees, nor about 'life-experience' degrees). This (for the OP) is about the advisability of giving someone without a degree a job in your company, when company policy dictates a degree is needed, and for me it is about why would anyone hire a foreigner in Thailand without a degree when there are so many here that want work and have both the degree and the relevant experience.

[Moonrakers]

The fake degree issue is a bit of a red herring here, as any reputable company will check the legitimacy of the degree.

There are agencies who specialise in this and they can get back to you within hours as to whether or not a degree is legitimate or not.

Stander

If the 'fake' degree was issued by a university for money, then when somebody checks for its authenticity they will be told that it is an authentic degree.

Degrees printed in a KSR back road are one thing but a degree that is obtained by bribery is another matter entirely. Corruption in Thailand is rife and the education system is not spared of this.

[stander]

I do not believe there is a serious problem here with fake degrees being issued for payment.

I have also discussed this at length with my companies HR and they are of a similar opinion.

I think many farang who are unable to obtain gainful employment here, just can't accept that a Thai is a far better option than a farang with or without a degree.

They continually whine about how poor and corrupt the Thai education system is and that they are actually much more qualified, whereas with my experience of over 25 years working with Thai graduates is that they are as good as any and nowadays to be preferred over their farang counterpart.

[Moonrakers]

Who's whining? People are just pointing out what is common knowledge.

If you want to remain blinkered then that is up to you but as has already been pointed out, you are actually off topic. Why don't you start your own thread to educate us on how wonderful the Thai education system is?

[stander]

Moonraker

I did not say you were whining, but if the hat fits.

[Moonrakers]

Moonraker

I did not say you were whining, but if the hat fits.

I was pointing out that people........

Oh, forget it.

[OxfordWill]

I have not met an employer who considers it more important than his "feeling" or judgment of the person at interview. The problem is getting to the interview point without one, for large companies do need to whittle down their pool of applicants somehow without meeting them all. If your company is not large then it acts foolishly in my view rejecting people without degrees. Universities for the most part are very poor preludes to the workplace.

In Thailand if you hire expats at all, you will be inundated with applications even if you are a small company. With a labor pool this large it is foolish not to have some basic requirements such as a degree (and usually relevant work experience -- though again in many cases I would prefer to hire without the experience basing my decisions on personality and adaptability. In fact, a small company wastes far more valuable resources in interviewing applicants early on than a large company does. (Large companies use HR to screen out people not just based on required qualifications but in testing, a smaller company ends up using a director's time for applicants.

I agree that for me it is often a 'feeling' that makes the final push. I get 20-30 people a week looking for employment at times, and never less than about 5 or 6. I probably have 20 positions opening up in April. I don't waste time interviewing people that don't meet my standards and STILL interview 2-3 a week. Some of the positions actually REQUIRE at least 1 degree, a couple do not. However, with as many applicants as I have to choose from it is a rare day that I give an interview to someone without a degree. In Thailand I have never hired someone that did not have a degree and some additional qualifications. It truly is an "employers market" in Thailand and it is the potential employee's responsibility to make themselves competitive.

My experience being an employer here, hiring expats, is vastly different to yours. What industry are you in? We seldom have enough applicants for available positions and are sometimes forced to choose less than ideal compromises.

Edited December 16, 2010 by OxfordWill

[GuestHouse]

My experience being an employer here, hiring expats, is vastly different to yours. What industry are you in? We seldom have enough applicants for available positions and are sometimes forced to choose less than ideal compromises.

You should take the blinkers off and start hiring Thai staff - I have this evening had the privilege of taking the team who have worked for me over the past two years out for a thank you dinner - All Thai, all have turned out a first class performance....... and all degree educated.

[WarpSpeed]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

Plus the Bill Gates argument is frankly stupid- for every 1 Bill Gates, there are 30,000,000 mall security guards.

Yup. Couldnt agree more. There is a term for this that sums up these kind of arguments nicely: it's called survivorship bias. Plus for every Bill Gates I could probably name you 10 or more successful people WITH a degree. Arguments by reference to a person or group of people don't really count IMHO. Very easy to "disprove" by the contrary.

Pompous <deleted>...

[GuestHouse]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

Plus the Bill Gates argument is frankly stupid- for every 1 Bill Gates, there are 30,000,000 mall security guards.

Yup. Couldnt agree more. There is a term for this that sums up these kind of arguments nicely: it's called survivorship bias. Plus for every Bill Gates I could probably name you 10 or more successful people WITH a degree. Arguments by reference to a person or group of people don't really count IMHO. Very easy to "disprove" by the contrary.

Pompous <deleted>...

I guess hat's a term of phrase we'll have to accept in the absence of a tangible counter argument.

[WarpSpeed]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

Plus the Bill Gates argument is frankly stupid- for every 1 Bill Gates, there are 30,000,000 mall security guards.

Yup. Couldnt agree more. There is a term for this that sums up these kind of arguments nicely: it's called survivorship bias. Plus for every Bill Gates I could probably name you 10 or more successful people WITH a degree. Arguments by reference to a person or group of people don't really count IMHO. Very easy to "disprove" by the contrary.

Pompous <deleted>...

I guess hat's a term of phrase we'll have to accept in the absence of a tangible counter argument.

That kind of biased and bigoted troll doesn't deserve a tangible response.. It's just plain pompous <deleted> based on 0 legitimacy..

[Moonrakers]

Basically it seems that those people who don't think degrees make any difference- don't have a degree themselves (which is an understandable prejudice).

Plus the Bill Gates argument is frankly stupid- for every 1 Bill Gates, there are 30,000,000 mall security guards.

Yup. Couldnt agree more. There is a term for this that sums up these kind of arguments nicely: it's called survivorship bias. Plus for every Bill Gates I could probably name you 10 or more successful people WITH a degree. Arguments by reference to a person or group of people don't really count IMHO. Very easy to "disprove" by the contrary.

Pompous <deleted>...

I guess hat's a term of phrase we'll have to accept in the absence of a tangible counter argument.

I wouldn't have termed it in quite the way that WarpSpeed did myself but he isn't exactly wrong.

To state that those without a degree are just being prejudiced and therefore have no valid argument is, as WarpSpeed so succinctly put it, Pompous <deleted>.

[WarpSpeed]

Yup. Couldnt agree more. There is a term for this that sums up these kind of arguments nicely: it's called survivorship bias. Plus for every Bill Gates I could probably name you 10 or more successful people WITH a degree. Arguments by reference to a person or group of people don't really count IMHO. Very easy to "disprove" by the contrary.

Pompous <deleted>...

I guess hat's a term of phrase we'll have to accept in the absence of a tangible counter argument.

I wouldn't have termed it in quite the way that WarpSpeed did myself but he isn't exactly wrong.

To state that those without a degree are just being prejudiced and therefore have no valid argument is, as WarpSpeed so succinctly put it, Pompous <deleted>.

Sorry, was I too polite or not direct enough ??

[stander]

It is obvious what we have here are several bitter farangs who can't come to terms with the fact that their incomplete education is a major hindrance to them gaining meaningful employment here in Thailand.

[Moonrakers]

It is obvious what we have here are several bitter farangs who can't come to terms with the fact that their incomplete education is a major hindrance to them gaining meaningful employment here in Thailand.

How many farangs in this thread without a degree don't have meaningful employment?

[WarpSpeed]

It is obvious what we have here are several bitter farangs who can't come to terms with the fact that their incomplete education is a major hindrance to them gaining meaningful employment here in Thailand.

:cheesy: :cheesy: Clearly you have a PHD in psychology ....

Edited December 16, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

It is obvious what we have here are several bitter farangs who can't come to terms with the fact that their incomplete education is a major hindrance to them gaining meaningful employment here in Thailand.

How many farangs in this thread without a degree don't have meaningful employment?

Good question....Alternatively I'd like to know how many are actually either retired maybe early due to their past success or are employers of their own right, here..

Edited December 16, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[Chonburiram]

It is obvious what we have here are several bitter farangs who can't come to terms with the fact that their incomplete education is a major hindrance to them gaining meaningful employment here in Thailand.

Did you come to Thailand to gain/have a " meaningful employment " ?

[emsfeld]

Yup. Couldnt agree more. There is a term for this that sums up these kind of arguments nicely: it's called survivorship bias. Plus for every Bill Gates I could probably name you 10 or more successful people WITH a degree. Arguments by reference to a person or group of people don't really count IMHO. Very easy to "disprove" by the contrary.

Pompous <deleted>...

I guess hat's a term of phrase we'll have to accept in the absence of a tangible counter argument.

I wouldn't have termed it in quite the way that WarpSpeed did myself but he isn't exactly wrong.

To state that those without a degree are just being prejudiced and therefore have no valid argument is, as WarpSpeed so succinctly put it, Pompous <deleted>.

Not sure whose post you are referring to, but I am agreeing with ExpatJ on the following:

"Plus the Bill Gates argument is frankly stupid- for every 1 Bill Gates, there are 30,000,000 mall security guards."

Frankly, it is stupid and "pompous <deleted>" to say just because a single or a handful number of people achieved X that this will apply to or should encourage anyone who does Y. Reminds me of a person very dear to me who does nothing all day apart from playing soccer (at age 27) hoping to become a famous, big star some day. His reasoning: because Michael Ballack was discovered at age 27 it might happen to him also. It's a classical case of survivorship bias as people always refer to the rare few who came to fame and riches coming from leftfield, but everyone neglects to mention those in majority who did not.

If you had read carefully this is exactly what I meant and I had no intentions at all in discrediting/ insulting people without a degree.

Edited December 17, 2010 by emsfeld

[Heng]

The biggest gripes probably aren't from the 'retired after a successful career or are currently on a relatively successful career path without a degree and yet want to defend the not going to school career path' demographic. It's from the folks who are looking to relocate here permanently, just landed, and/or a few years in and starting to feel like they are in a dead end situation career wise, who happen to have either chosen or were not able to go the route of formal education. I know plenty of both types and the former simply don't complain / brag that much / and certainly tend not to push other folks into not going to school. OMMV.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Heng