Woman Beaten Unconscious On Phuket Beach

[overhaul38]

The ultimate response by the authorities will tell the tale. It depends on the money and connections enjoyed by the restaurant owner as to the outcome of this case.

Naiharn is right, bad things happen all round the world but the difference is the response by the authorities. I would like to know the outcome of the outrages reported by Naiharn and I would like to think that the perps were properly punished.

[zthyadat]

these guys are not mafia,, mafia do not do things like that, these are just idiots getting off on beating a defensive woman,, calling these guys mafia will only give a boost to there egos.

six men against one women, what a bunch of cowards. Says it all about the Thai mafia really.

Sorry, what sort of things do the mafia do? Are you suggesting the Thai mafia are too honourable to do such a thing? Here on a short holiday, are you?

[mark2552]

IF and when they find these pricks, and I certainly hope they do, and before they prosecute them, the police you takem out back behind the barn and kiick the living sheet out them..Lets see, one of them and 10 police.

[SteeleJoe]

Forgive me for saying but a lot of you folks need to get a freakin' grip...

Some observations, in no particular order:

-- This is a really horrible incident. No question about it. However, it's not even close to the worst thing one hears about (here or any number of countries). The shock and outrage is in some ways a bit out of proportion and a lot of it seems less about the actual incident but more about leaping at the chance to support a particular (not entirely inaccurate) view of Thailand and Thais.

It has long baffled me (for decades, in fact) -- why are so many Farangs compelled to almost constantly and so vehemently vilify the Thais and and Thailand and yet go to great deal of effort to either visit often or even live here? (And don't get me started on the people who spend so much time reviling Thai women while working so hard to get them to not only sleep with them but care about them).

I do lots of complaining about this place. Lots. But I generally keep things in context and maintain some balance and perspective. And I remember that nobody forced me to move here or to stay.

-- People pointing out that it happens anywhere are guilty of perhaps being irrelevant but there's no way that can logically or honestly called "a whitewash". At worst they are unconsciously trying to minimize the event so as to not have to face some harsh ralities about the place they are hooked on visiting /living in, but more like they just trying to put things in perspective.

-- Anyone who thinks sort of event is unusual for Thailand or even the worst sort of thing one might see or hear about, truly doesn't have much of a clue. It is simple and unassailable FACT: there is a very dark side to this country. It is no less real (though thankfully arguably less prevalent) than the really great side of life here.

Been here a LONG time and I can tell you some hair-raising and horrifying stories of my own or of others known personally to me. LOTS. That's not even counting the stuff that's reported in the news - and some if its worse than what one might read about.

-- It seems like a paradox (but in fact, it's not): the Thais are capable of being astonishingly kind or shockingly cruel (indeed often the very same person). Saying that doesn't mean that one views Thailand as the best place in the world or the worst. It's just realistic.

-- And as for the BiB...there's a lot to say about that (little of it good) but much of what's being said here is pretty simplistic and out of context. Not to mention that the ills associated with them are in fact merely the symptoms of a disease, not its cause (ie the underlying reasons why the law enforcement is as it is go well beyond merely the people doing that job and their conduct; why are those sort of people so often doing that job? why is it the norm that enforcement is as it is? how is that tolerated and indeed how did it ever get that way? There are reasons -- historic, political and cultural -- but alreay I may have said enough to get my second post deleted after only two thread and two days as a member!).

Edited January 11, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[mark2552]

post script: The resturant owner included!

[metisdead]

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[SteeleJoe]

I'm wondering about the nationality of the restaurant people. It feels to me that they are not Thai - or not real Thais.

Oh, man. Seriously?

Forgot to say...

All this talk about whether "Mafia" is the right term to be used (and to the guys who said he saw no reference to mafia in the article, he needs to read it again -- it's in there twice): it seems that some Falangs have been confused to an extent by the way Thais use the term -- that is to say very, very loosely. It may or may not be a reference to organized crime of some sort -- often very, very small scale (ie one group of criminals controlled or influenced by someone of relative wealth or power -- ie a restuarant owner with money perhaps a couple of connections and some nephews and local thugs) but sometimes massive (ie people who control trade worth millions and who are virtually untouchable and extremely powerful) -- but often it's just a term thrown around by Thais to mean career criminals in groups or even just one nasty guy.

And a "Mafia" is sometimes used by otherwise "respectable business people as a means of getting certain things done. That doesn't mean that business person is some sort of godfather and it's far more common than -- I suspect -- most of you would think.

[LivinLOS]

I'm wondering about the nationality of the restaurant people. It feels to me that they are not Thai - or not real Thais.

I wonder if they might be Middle Eastern or Indian type nationalities.

Dear dear me.. People go to such lengths..

They are Thai.. The Phuket locals know who there are.. And which restaurant they are fighting for.. Their photos are up on another site as the womans sisters are pushing to governor hard as local police wont do it as the family 'runs' the beach.

The restaurant (that cant be named) is the same one thats walled off a section of the beach down to the waterline.. Wouldnt surprise me to find out they are behind the sudden arrivals of the jetskis to Surin too.

Edited January 11, 2011 by LivinLOS

[brownknees]

I was in a branch of a gov agency today and my (thai)wife overheard a conversation between a Thai man and the rest of the office about how some of his men shot two farangs dead and have got away with it as thier"big Boss"has big power with the police(Pattaya/Sattahip/Rayong.This was a boating incident .I have only been back here a month and am not aware of it?

[oldsailor35]

To the routine annoyance of people within ear-shot, I can normally talk for England,

but this report, assuming it is totally accurate, makes me speechless with gloom and

sorrow.

Anyone else having second/third/fourth....thoughts about living in this cruel land ?

(given the endless stream of bad-news....perhaps just stop reading TV altogether.)

And before anyone jumps up with the usual: Bad things happen everywhere, even

in cuddly England...absolutely right....but I bet you cannot come up with any story of

a gang descending on and beating a lone woman for trying to sell a few items of fruit ?

Behind all the gold decor, posing in pastel shirts, and quaint mannerisms, Cruel LOS ?

It is sad for the lady, and I hope that she recovers soon. But.....................................

You are right - there will not be a case of people beating up others over selling fruit, on a beach in England.

1 they cannot afford the fruit

2 the local council would not let them sell it on the beach

3 the health and safety people would demand that they wear protective clothing 'in case it was tainted'

4 it's too cold on the beach

In all of my time of living in Thailand, this is the first time that I have heard of this. What does an isolated incident have to do with 'cruel LOS'?

In the UK yesterday there was a case of 'sexual grooming by two Asians on white girls'. (Not the first case.) Cruel LOS ?- I almost choked on my BBQ sweetcorn.

Now now boys ! this is Thailand we are talking about ( our home) not sorry sad broken down ole England .

[SanSaiExPat]

To the routine annoyance of people within ear-shot, I can normally talk for England,

but this report, assuming it is totally accurate, makes me speechless with gloom and

sorrow.

Anyone else having second/third/fourth....thoughts about living in this cruel land ?

(given the endless stream of bad-news....perhaps just stop reading TV altogether.)

And before anyone jumps up with the usual: Bad things happen everywhere, even

in cuddly England...absolutely right....but I bet you cannot come up with any story of

a gang descending on and beating a lone woman for trying to sell a few items of fruit ?

Behind all the gold decor, posing in pastel shirts, and quaint mannerisms, Cruel LOS ?

No your right... this kind of shit just doesn't happen in England or the U.S. ... we are far too civilised for groups of men to be beating the shit out of defenseless women for something as petty as selling goods on someone elses supposed turf.

But doing it for fun..now that's a different matter..

Heres a little selection it took me all of 10 seconds to find...

http://www.createpea...manmurdered.htm

http://www.theargus....ver_work_again/

http://www.topix.com...TNDJ7QUMN101RSI

By all means be disgusted at what happened to this woman...undoubtedly these guys are scum...but don't give it the self righteous 'this shit don't happen back home' nonsense, because it does and far worse...And if you watch some of the documentaries on Chinese cockle pickers on the beaches of England the exact same shit happens ...

I knew it wouldn't take long for one of you to drag the United States into this incident.

[oldsailor35]

I hope that she has a large family to look after her, and to remonstrate in a suitable fashion with the resturants little band of henchmen. A resturant sized bonfire would fit the bill nicely.<BR>If no action is taken against the gang of thugs by the police then any connection between the resturant and local police officers or their families should be investigated.

Investigated !..............by whom ?

[moskito]

Sorry, what sort of things do the mafia do? Are you suggesting the Thai mafia are too honourable to do such a thing? Here on a short holiday, are you?

Actually there is no such thing as a mafia in LoS, not really. There is police police police ....ahhh and military

[Syduan]

This kind of shit sickens me.

Seen this sort of thing happen all the time and have the scars to proove, fortunatly not everyone in Thailand is like this but are prevelant in the red districts. (all over the world) Bastards (excuse the language,skum of the earth).

[Syduan]

Totaly agree,

I've been here for 21 years and have been ripped off and lied to by farangs more than Thais. At the moment I'm running a

construction job for a mate of mine and I have never in my life met a nicer people than the Shan folk I deal with everyday, ever.

[Horseswild]

The crime is abominable, let's only hope that Justice is swift here. It seems authorities are eager to solve this and bring the conspirators to court, but let's also hope that it goes one step further, that the victim is compensated by means of the assets of the instigator along with time in prison

[denissr]

The men responsible for attacking Ms Maiwadee will be prosecuted, V/Gov Weerawat said.

Like hell they will.

It appears these thugs have a free hand otherwise they would all be in jail awaiting trial right now.

The police are not really interested because the victim is not a person of wealth and considered of little significance. The police stand to gain nothing by enforcing the law for this poor kid and as usual they would prefer that this matter is forgotten and if left alone it will go away.

Who says that there will be no follow-ups to this story in the media? Place your bets here please.

[jayjay0]

Random

Thanks for the clarification

. I have always wondered about (brahmburgers) I will use a lot more salt now when I read his posts.

Just goes to show how the truth can be warped to make it seem what it is not. I was a little skeptical about truck loads of goons to tear buildings down. That is out of there line of work it takes machinery.

Well there is a little more to it than that.. The bars which got torn down actually had legal leases, it wasnt like the leases ran out and they wouldnt pay, only that he had a buffer leaseholder in between to run away and hide allowing plausible deniability. I actually knew a woman who had her life savings invested in a bar there and lost the lot that day.

There were actually 120 small businesses destroyed that night (starting at 04:00am on Jan 26th 2003). 60 of them were bars, the rest included internet cafes, travel agents, souvenir shops and a laundry. Most, if not all, held legitimate leases. They were all destroyed along with their contents (except for those that were looted by the thugs, as witnessed by residents of a Soi 10 apartment building), because one shell corporation run by Chuwit leased the land to another shell corporation, also run by Chuwit, for redevelopment. Jayjay0 is correct that it required machinery; back-hoe loaders, generators and lighting gantries were brought along to do the job, as well as truck loads of the afore mentioned thugs. Thaksin himself got involved with the fallout, calling for justice and screaming that the mafia responsible would be punished. Chuwit came back by threatening to reveal a list of senior police officials who he was paying off in return for keeping his brothels open. Thaksin spat his dummy even further, promising to personally clean up the police within three months, which dragged on to a year, then spluttering out once it was all forgotten. Yet another broken promise by the man we're told did so much for the country.

Exactly as I understood it.. Tho how you managed to turn Chuwits greed into an Anti Thaksin rant was quite masterful.

Amazing Thailand. we start off with a fruit seller being beaten by 6 unnamed thugs and with a few twitches ant turns here and there manage to turn it into a attack on Thaksin. With a detour to get Chuwit.

And we think the Thai's are creative. Stayed tuned more pages to come.:sleepy:

[SteeleJoe]

Dude007: Has it occurred to you -- or anyone else getting all worked up and ready to start boycotts or hoping to destroy the reputation of the restaurant and its owner (I won't even mention the really creepy post that that it would be good if we knew the identities of the thugs' family members...)...

All we know is the first version, bare bones one-sided story told to us by perhaps not a publication that can be gauranteed to be entirely accurate every time (what paper can?) And you think they (the restuarant owner(s) and all the employees whose life would be affected by any action against it) should be convicted "in the court of public opinion" based on this one article and sentenced to some as yet undetermined punitive action by posters of TV , if only the moderators would (or could) get on board with that?

Edited January 11, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[jayjay0]

Having lived here a while and lived in the west a while i have to say Phuket can be pretty scary. It seems people are going crazy for the chance to come to Phuket from all over Thailand and make money from the rich farrangs.

Phuket is a tiny island, surely the crime rate for similar cases is quite high per capita here?

Thais are generally nice, friendly, considerate and easy going people. However alot of them seem to through some transformation when they work in tourist areas. They seems to loose all their morals and values and well become obsessed with money and greed and will do anything to make money. I can't really put my finger on it, other than to say this is one of the reasons I have always avoided living in tourist areas. I guess I don't want to become a victim? You can always visit on holiday?

Maybe they learn from the people they are preying on.

Rip of the thin veneer and the west is just as you say the workers in the tourist areas are.

Please do not take that as a blanket statement but it is true for a lot larger percentage of people than one would think. Give a lot of people the chance to make money like the Thai's in tourist areas and you might be a bit surprised or maybe you expect it.

[TAWP]

Dude007: Has it occurred to you -- or anyone else getting all worked up and ready to start boycotts or hoping to destroy the reputation of the restaurant and its owner (I won't even mention the really creepy post that that it would be good if we knew the identities of the thugs' family members...)...

All we know is the first version, bare bones one-sided story told to us by perhaps not a publication that can be gauranteed to be entirely accurate every time (what paper can?) And you think they (the restuarant owner(s) and all the employees whose life would be affected by any action against it) should be convicted "in the court of public opinion" based on this one article and sentenced to some as yet undetermined punitive action by posters of TV , if only the moderators would (or could) get on board with that?

Please propose a scenario under which it would be justified for 6 adult men to assault a single woman until she is unconscious.

[SteeleJoe]

Please propose a scenario under which it would be justified for 6 adult men to assault a single woman until she is unconscious.

I can't even imagine that it is any way possible that there ever could be one? Why would you think so? Only someone not reading well and/or thinking well could believe I had suggested that there could be.

(I can't even propose a scenario where it would under which it would be justified for 1 boy to assault a single woman until she is unconscious. Not a very realistic one anyway. Good thing I didn't try to do anything like that or imply in any that there could be such a scenario).

[TAWP]

Please propose a scenario under which it would be justified for 6 adult men to assault a single woman until she is unconscious.

I can't even imagine that it is any way possible that there ever could be one? Why would you think so? Only someone not reading well and/or thinking well could believe I had suggested that there could be.

(I can't even propose a scenario where it would under which it would be justified for 1 boy to assault a single woman until she is unconscious. Not a very realistic one anyway. Good thing I didn't try to do anything like that or imply in any that there could be such a scenario).

So from that I deduct that under no normal situation can there be a scenario where the behavior is accepted, hence it is correct to start talking about boycotts and being worked up about this situation?

[SteeleJoe]

I'm being called to dinner so this will be rushed and any followup will be delayed....

So from that I deduct that under no normal situation can there be a scenario where the behavior is accepted, hence it is correct to start talking about boycotts and being worked up about this situation?

Yes, you can "deduct" (sic) that I believe that "under no normal situation can there be a scenario where the behavior is accepted". Moreover you can believe that I'd not at all object to "talking about boycotts and being worked up about this situation" if we new the whole story and were certain that is as precisely as the people in the story allege (eg that six men in the employ of said restaurant or at its behest did what is said). But we don't, do we?

[jayjay0]

Forgive me for saying but a lot of you folks need to get a freakin' grip...

Some observations, in no particular order:

-- This is a really horrible incident. No question about it. However, it's not even close to the worst thing one hears about (here or any number of countries). The shock and outrage is in some ways a bit out of proportion and a lot of it seems less about the actual incident but more about leaping at the chance to support a particular (not entirely inaccurate) view of Thailand and Thais.

It has long baffled me (for decades, in fact) -- why are so many Farangs compelled to almost constantly and so vehemently vilify the Thais and and Thailand and yet go to great deal of effort to either visit often or even live here? (And don't get me started on the people who spend so much time reviling Thai women while working so hard to get them to not only sleep with them but care about them).

I do lots of complaining about this place. Lots. But I generally keep things in context and maintain some balance and perspective. And I remember that nobody forced me to move here or to stay.

-- People pointing out that it happens anywhere are guilty of perhaps being irrelevant but there's no way that can logically or honestly called "a whitewash". At worst they are unconsciously trying to minimize the event so as to not have to face some harsh ralities about the place they are hooked on visiting /living in, but more like they just trying to put things in perspective.

-- Anyone who thinks sort of event is unusual for Thailand or even the worst sort of thing one might see or hear about, truly doesn't have much of a clue. It is simple and unassailable FACT: there is a very dark side to this country. It is no less real (though thankfully arguably less prevalent) than the really great side of life here.

Been here a LONG time and I can tell you some hair-raising and horrifying stories of my own or of others known personally to me. LOTS. That's not even counting the stuff that's reported in the news - and some if its worse than what one might read about.

-- It seems like a paradox (but in fact, it's not): the Thais are capable of being astonishingly kind or shockingly cruel (indeed often the very same person). Saying that doesn't mean that one views Thailand as the best place in the world or the worst. It's just realistic.

-- And as for the BiB...there's a lot to say about that (little of it good) but much of what's being said here is pretty simplistic and out of context. Not to mention that the ills associated with them are in fact merely the symptoms of a disease, not its cause (ie the underlying reasons why the law enforcement is as it is go well beyond merely the people doing that job and their conduct; why are those sort of people so often doing that job? why is it the norm that enforcement is as it is? how is that tolerated and indeed how did it ever get that way? There are reasons -- historic, political and cultural -- but alreay I may have said enough to get my second post deleted after only two thread and two days as a member!).

Well on the whole I find your post well thought out and in my opinion a lot of truths in it.

I personally would have read it with a little less salt if you had been a member for over two days. (i read all posts even my own with a little bit of salt)

You say

"The shock and outrage is in some ways a bit out of proportion"

I have been wondering if there really is that much shock and dismay about it. On Thai Visa and myself there is but what about the rest of Thailand and the Press. Is it just a one article item in a few papers with maybe a follow up in the back pages later or is it really a big item that the public is eager to buy news papers over.

As for why foreigners act the way they do. Did it ever occur to you that there actions are unacceptable back home. And-or the drinking and whoring is more acceptable here than back home. Lets face it Thailand is a lot easier to live in for some people than where they come from

As for your comment on the BiB well you did not come right out and say it but you left no doubt that you agreed with the posters who have made a blanket statement that all police in Thailand are crooked. For myself I disagree. There are many good cops in Thailand. You and the other poster's sound like a clown who has disappeared from TV said in one of his posts He had studied a 7 11 on the walking street in Pattaya and knew all about Thai's in Thailand.

I guess you have figured out now that I don't agree with you on that point at all There are some good cops and when some one with decades here indicates there isn't any well back to the salt.

[koto]

To the routine annoyance of people within ear-shot, I can normally talk for England,

but this report, assuming it is totally accurate, makes me speechless with gloom and

sorrow.

Anyone else having second/third/fourth....thoughts about living in this cruel land ?

(given the endless stream of bad-news....perhaps just stop reading TV altogether.)

And before anyone jumps up with the usual: Bad things happen everywhere, even

in cuddly England...absolutely right....but I bet you cannot come up with any story of

a gang descending on and beating a lone woman for trying to sell a few items of fruit ?

Behind all the gold decor, posing in pastel shirts, and quaint mannerisms, Cruel LOS ?

It is sad for the lady, and I hope that she recovers soon. But.....................................

You are right - there will not be a case of people beating up others over selling fruit, on a beach in England.

1 they cannot afford the fruit

2 the local council would not let them sell it on the beach

3 the health and safety people would demand that they wear protective clothing 'in case it was tainted'

4 it's too cold on the beach

In all of my time of living in Thailand, this is the first time that I have heard of this. What does an isolated incident have to do with 'cruel LOS'?

In the UK yesterday there was a case of 'sexual grooming by two Asians on white girls'. (Not the first case.) Cruel LOS ?- I almost choked on my BBQ sweetcorn.

I don't usually reply to these forums, just reading them amazes me.

I do not claim to be an expert on any country, but I have a brain, some knowledge and experience, and have been resident in several countries throughout the world--including Thailand, where I now live, but have frequently visited for more than forty years.

One of the things I have learned is that all facts need to be known before an intelligent discussion or correct decision can be made. We are told of no witnesses except the victim and what her father has reportedly said. So, what if there were not six thugs? What if the victim simply got into an argument with a worker in the restaurant? Or, worse yet, what if the charges are simply trumped-up and she only fell off her bike and cracked her head? Her face appears remarkably unscathed for receiving a beating by six thugs, don't you agree?

What if the restaurant also sells fruit, pays a pretty hefty sum to occupy the beach, has warned the vendor previously against selling inside their restaurant, but the vendor still walked right into the restaurant to sell fruit . What if the restaurant owner, an elderly matron, simply threw the vendor out on her ear. What if the charges are only claimed by the vendor as some sort of retribution?

So, let's get the rest of the story before Thai bashing and ascribing guilt..

Do you think the UK, US or any other Western nation's laws allow a vendor to sell similar products in another business without permission. In fact, the Western police would assist the restaurant owner in evicting the vendor.

I realize vendors selling competing products in restaurants is a common practice in Thailand. Would the Thai Police make vendors leave, or would the restaurant have to take measures into its own hands to rid themselves of the vendors?

I believe Vice Governor Weerawat did the right thing, he ordered an investigation.

So, back away from your armchair judiciary, unless you can find nothing better to do in Thailand. I that case, I will settle back into my sheer amazement and ignore these missives as best I can.

I just knew there was someone out there with some common sense, Mahalo for your post, you took the words right out of my heart.

I take my hat off to you sir, and hope all, learn just a tad out of what you have said.

[blackthorn2005]

Sadly this thing is common, especially with some of the thugs/scum/ cowards in Phuket. Jet ski operators, tuk-tuk drivers, Bangla Road touts, Soi San Sabai Motor bike parking security guards. They all have a number of things in common; They operate in groups/packs. If they are bored or high, they will cause violence. Once the violence starts, they get the smell of blood and all dive in for the kill. Another common factor is that it is never, never 1 on 1. Until the police start doing a policing job, this problem is here to stay and it will get worse.

[inquisitive]

In all of my time of living in Thailand, this is the first time that I have heard of this. What does an isolated incident have to do with 'cruel LOS'?

Not a whole lot different than a few years ago, When a Bkk brothel owner named Chuwit hired truckloads of thugs to level an entire city block of Bkk - to get rid of vendors there. Granted, bodily harm wasn't done. How did Chuwit get off the hook? He had a truckload of smut on the police captains and openly threatened to reveal all if indicted.

Did it work? Of course it did. Not only that, the thug went on to become a respected politician.

Similarly, I won't be surprised if the restaurant owner in the current incident will pull a similar scheme: threaten to reveal dirty laundry on Phuket's police chief and/or hierchy if they intend to slap him with any serious charges.

Here's a little something any Phuketians can do if concerned. A. boycott the restaurant. B. purchase from vendors stationed on the beach by the restaurant.

Well to be fair, he did own the land in question, he gave notice for the bar owners to move out which they refused to do, he moved them out with the only option left open to him, nobody was hurt, and the land is now a very nice park on the shitty area of sukhumvit road (the park was built by him).

I am not sure about some of those details. As I remember it, at the time the owner buldozed the land it was covered with shops that had valid leases giving them the right to stay. The landowner, flush with money from his lucrative massage parlor businesses just did not want to wait until those contracts expired. He wanted to set up another huge massage parlor on the land and he had absolutely the same amount of concern for the rights of the poor people that had invested their life savings in their small business ventures as he had for the under-aged and illegal immigrant girls he was shown to have working in his parlors. He was rich and he was well connected. What else do you need in Thailand?

As I recall, some of the renters used to sleep on their property at night to protect their business from theft and the like. Some had computers and expensive goods onsite which surely represented a huge investment on their part. I believe that there were reports that someone came to them inthe middle of the night and told them they had 20 minutes to vacate and take whatever they could before the place was razed. They were told that to saty any longer was to die. As they were being warned some "engineers" came and erected a high wall around the place so that they would not be seen from the street and outsiders could not get on site to interfere. After months of high-profile front page wrangling (including charges of kidnapping, people trafficking, etc., the man who owned the land decided that he could score enough points to launch a political career if he changed the now barren land to a park. Skeptics note that he has kept ownership for himself and there is no promise that the park will last any longer than his political aspirations, so you wil have to decide for yourself how magnanimous that gesture really was. (Also note that there are no taxes due on this land as there would be in most countries, so the cost to to the owner while he waits to see if the ploy works is minimal. Hmm. He pays to plant some grass and trees, and in return gets to grab 30% of any project the government runs under his aegis? Good work if you can get it.)

The only reason this got to be such a big deal in the first place is that it became a proxy war in the media between the army and the police, both of which felt they had authority. One was granted authority by law and the other felt they had authority because they were the ones who did the actual destruction as paid thugs (oops, I mean "engineers"). This competition between the two factions that carry guns for a living has simmered for years and is still ongoing. Each group want to show they have the bigger... um... guns. The issues are huge such as whether the police can enter a military base to arrest military men for their civil crimes, and whether the Army can just do whatever it wants in town regardless of the laws. Both the Army and the police tried their best to embarass the other and the whole thing became a giant soap opera as each side revealed the dirty linen of the other and threatened to expose more. Eventually the courts and the prison system even took a bath in the press with the allegatins and exposures that kept cropping up. It went on and on like drunks still punching out not knowing they are defeated. The odd thing is that virtually nothing was said about the poor people who lost their investment and their livelihood in the wee hours of the morning that day. Like so many fruit vendors, their rights seemed of no real concern at all.

The whole affair only seemed to end when all sides apparantly agreed that anyone with morals like the person who ran the original operation would be perfect for politics. Some even proposed him to head the entire political party. Perhaps the were right. You decide. And do enjoy the park the few hours each day that the owner permits you to visit. It is quite peaceful there, kind of the way a graveyard would be, but with music.

[inquisitive]

To the routine annoyance of people within ear-shot, I can normally talk for England,

but this report, assuming it is totally accurate, makes me speechless with gloom and

sorrow.

Anyone else having second/third/fourth....thoughts about living in this cruel land ?

(given the endless stream of bad-news....perhaps just stop reading TV altogether.)

And before anyone jumps up with the usual: Bad things happen everywhere, even

in cuddly England...absolutely right....but I bet you cannot come up with any story of

a gang descending on and beating a lone woman for trying to sell a few items of fruit ?

Behind all the gold decor, posing in pastel shirts, and quaint mannerisms, Cruel LOS ?

It is sad for the lady, and I hope that she recovers soon. But.....................................

You are right - there will not be a case of people beating up others over selling fruit, on a beach in England.

1 they cannot afford the fruit

2 the local council would not let them sell it on the beach

3 the health and safety people would demand that they wear protective clothing 'in case it was tainted'

4 it's too cold on the beach

In all of my time of living in Thailand, this is the first time that I have heard of this. What does an isolated incident have to do with 'cruel LOS'?

In the UK yesterday there was a case of 'sexual grooming by two Asians on white girls'. (Not the first case.) Cruel LOS ?- I almost choked on my BBQ sweetcorn.

I don't usually reply to these forums, just reading them amazes me.

I do not claim to be an expert on any country, but I have a brain, some knowledge and experience, and have been resident in several countries throughout the world--including Thailand, where I now live, but have frequently visited for more than forty years.

One of the things I have learned is that all facts need to be known before an intelligent discussion or correct decision can be made. We are told of no witnesses except the victim and what her father has reportedly said. So, what if there were not six thugs? What if the victim simply got into an argument with a worker in the restaurant? Or, worse yet, what if the charges are simply trumped-up and she only fell off her bike and cracked her head? Her face appears remarkably unscathed for receiving a beating by six thugs, don't you agree?

What if the restaurant also sells fruit, pays a pretty hefty sum to occupy the beach, has warned the vendor previously against selling inside their restaurant, but the vendor still walked right into the restaurant to sell fruit . What if the restaurant owner, an elderly matron, simply threw the vendor out on her ear. What if the charges are only claimed by the vendor as some sort of retribution?

So, let's get the rest of the story before Thai bashing and ascribing guilt..

Do you think the UK, US or any other Western nation's laws allow a vendor to sell similar products in another business without permission. In fact, the Western police would assist the restaurant owner in evicting the vendor.

I realize vendors selling competing products in restaurants is a common practice in Thailand. Would the Thai Police make vendors leave, or would the restaurant have to take measures into its own hands to rid themselves of the vendors?

I believe Vice Governor Weerawat did the right thing, he ordered an investigation.

So, back away from your armchair judiciary, unless you can find nothing better to do in Thailand. I that case, I will settle back into my sheer amazement and ignore these missives as best I can.

I just knew there was someone out there with some common sense, Mahalo for your post, you took the words right out of my heart.

I take my hat off to you sir, and hope all, learn just a tad out of what you have said.

By golly, you are both right, but what do you think the chances are of us ever hearing the information you seek? I think that is actually one of the major complaints: that the authorities don't seem to give a rap about such incidents and they are not investigated or prosecuted the way you and the rest of us feel they should be. Sadly, the little information we have will probably be about all we will ever get, so the idea of waiting until all the evidence is in to draw conclusions may already be in effect. I hope I am wrong.

[inquisitive]

Forgive me for saying but a lot of you folks need to get a freakin' grip...

Some observations, in no particular order:

-- This is a really horrible incident. No question about it. However, it's not even close to the worst thing one hears about (here or any number of countries). The shock and outrage is in some ways a bit out of proportion and a lot of it seems less about the actual incident but more about leaping at the chance to support a particular (not entirely inaccurate) view of Thailand and Thais.

It has long baffled me (for decades, in fact) -- why are so many Farangs compelled to almost constantly and so vehemently vilify the Thais and and Thailand and yet go to great deal of effort to either visit often or even live here? (And don't get me started on the people who spend so much time reviling Thai women while working so hard to get them to not only sleep with them but care about them).

I do lots of complaining about this place. Lots. But I generally keep things in context and maintain some balance and perspective. And I remember that nobody forced me to move here or to stay.

-- People pointing out that it happens anywhere are guilty of perhaps being irrelevant but there's no way that can logically or honestly called "a whitewash". At worst they are unconsciously trying to minimize the event so as to not have to face some harsh ralities about the place they are hooked on visiting /living in, but more like they just trying to put things in perspective.

-- Anyone who thinks sort of event is unusual for Thailand or even the worst sort of thing one might see or hear about, truly doesn't have much of a clue. It is simple and unassailable FACT: there is a very dark side to this country. It is no less real (though thankfully arguably less prevalent) than the really great side of life here.

Been here a LONG time and I can tell you some hair-raising and horrifying stories of my own or of others known personally to me. LOTS. That's not even counting the stuff that's reported in the news - and some if its worse than what one might read about.

-- It seems like a paradox (but in fact, it's not): the Thais are capable of being astonishingly kind or shockingly cruel (indeed often the very same person). Saying that doesn't mean that one views Thailand as the best place in the world or the worst. It's just realistic.

-- And as for the BiB...there's a lot to say about that (little of it good) but much of what's being said here is pretty simplistic and out of context. Not to mention that the ills associated with them are in fact merely the symptoms of a disease, not its cause (ie the underlying reasons why the law enforcement is as it is go well beyond merely the people doing that job and their conduct; why are those sort of people so often doing that job? why is it the norm that enforcement is as it is? how is that tolerated and indeed how did it ever get that way? There are reasons -- historic, political and cultural -- but alreay I may have said enough to get my second post deleted after only two thread and two days as a member!).

Well on the whole I find your post well thought out and in my opinion a lot of truths in it.

I personally would have read it with a little less salt if you had been a member for over two days. (i read all posts even my own with a little bit of salt)

You say

"The shock and outrage is in some ways a bit out of proportion"

I have been wondering if there really is that much shock and dismay about it. On Thai Visa and myself there is but what about the rest of Thailand and the Press. Is it just a one article item in a few papers with maybe a follow up in the back pages later or is it really a big item that the public is eager to buy news papers over.

As for why foreigners act the way they do. Did it ever occur to you that there actions are unacceptable back home. And-or the drinking and whoring is more acceptable here than back home. Lets face it Thailand is a lot easier to live in for some people than where they come from

As for your comment on the BiB well you did not come right out and say it but you left no doubt that you agreed with the posters who have made a blanket statement that all police in Thailand are crooked. For myself I disagree. There are many good cops in Thailand. You and the other poster's sound like a clown who has disappeared from TV said in one of his posts He had studied a 7 11 on the walking street in Pattaya and knew all about Thai's in Thailand.

I guess you have figured out now that I don't agree with you on that point at all There are some good cops and when some one with decades here indicates there isn't any well back to the salt.

I think both of you are being cool-headed and both have valid points. I don't think that SteeleJoe did condemn the BIB the way jayjay0 claims, but if you want an insider's appraisal of the level of corruption in the Thai Police, you need look no further than a quote from the very head of the police system wherein he stated that he couldn't simply fire the corrupt police because if he did there wouldn't be anyone left.

I do think that there age good ones and bad ones, but let me tell you a true story about one of the good ones. This man was a very close friend of the family, and one day I asked him to stop by after dinner to discuss something important. When he came I told him that I needed his help with a problem. He immediately asked me who I wanted killed.

Need I elaborate more?