Phuket Gang Rape Victim Now Safe

[FritsSikkink]

She was working illegally, overstayed her visa, had no money, new 1 of the guys quite well and didn't want to press charges.

[powderpuff]

No money, no job, no ticket & seriously in trouble with the authorities for overstaying her visa. O what shall I do?

[Wallaby]

The Asociation of Professional Journalists has a detailed code of ethics. Several of those guidelines are applicable to the article which has caused the discussion here. Journalists should:

— Test the accuracy of information from all sources and exercise care to avoid inadvertent error. Deliberate distortion is never permissible.

— The public is entitled to as much information as possible on sources' reliability.

— Make certain that headlines, news teases and promotional material, photos, video, audio, graphics, sound bites and quotations do not misrepresent. They should not oversimplify or highlight incidents out of context.

— Distinguish between advocacy and news reporting. Analysis and commentary should be labeled and not misrepresent fact or context.

— Show good taste. Avoid pandering to lurid curiosity.

Maybe a rape occurred within the legal definition of rape. Maybe it did not. I don't know. The article claims a rape occurred but didn't provide compelling information. To a large extent, this thread is base udpon an article appearing in the Daily Mail. That doesn't mean the event happened exactly as has been relayed by the author.

So what? He has reported something like any other journalist would.

[happyrobert]

In a case of rape the benefit of doubt should go to the victim.

Give me strength!

Too many men have had their lives destroyed by evil women making false accusations of rape to accept that.

Only the facts please.

Yep, like just last week in Texas. Poor guy spent 30 years in prison because the "victim" ID'd him. Prosecutors fought like hell for the past decade to prevent DNA being introduced because all his appeals were long exhausted.

Finally was considered, and guess what? He didn't do it. Got released after 30 years. Pathetic.

There is no "benefit of doubt" in the law. You are only supposed to consider hard evidence regarding victims and suspects. If it's not there, tough break.

[fenny99]

no way .. in a case of rape you cant go on the benefit of the doubt .. YOU COULD RUIN LIVES LIKE THAT !!!!!!

In a case of rape the benefit of doubt should go to the victim.

[MJP]

What a useless discussion. We really don't know what has happened. No medical records, no police report and the lady was too drunk to give more details. Although all of what the lady says might be true, I think it is nothing the public should judge on because the lady decided to keep the proper public authorities and legal instances out of this issue.

All I can learn from this story, don't drink and then all of this would sound differently.

(I still remember my days as a young interpreter in court where I hoped to make a lady's allegations against her former husband heard at the police and in court and I remember the husband being mistreated by the police after his arrest based on the allegations and being badly beaten up by the police while being arrested. I was happy about the police doing a bit of overtime to let justice rule and I can't tell you about my consternation when the lady asked me to withdraw the charges some time later because she said she made all up to get a hold of the house they were sharing and when her former husband agreed to leave her with the house, she had all she was aiming for.)

Yup.

Back to the Boiling Water thread.

[geriatrickid]

So what? He has reported something like any other journalist would.

Not exactly. A journalist working for a publication that has standards of quality such as the New York Times, or the Economist for example would have provided all of the facts in a less opionated manner.

The Daily Mail version of the incident was missing some details which others have provided in this thread. Those two or three lines of additional information were important parts of the story and were perhaps intentionally left out as they would not have supported the article's "flow".

No one disputes that rape is a wrong. However, readers have a right to know if this was a rape or if this was a sexual assault intended as a threat or a settling of accounts. For example, if someone is shot by a gangster, it is an integral part of the story to report if that victim was working in the community of gangsters or was an innocent passerby. In respect to the general security of people, and the local community there is a big difference between a victim that is raped while going about his or her daily activities and one that is engaged in questionable activities. If an article is presented as a "gang rape" what is a regular person to think? Should they venture out, are they safe? On the other hand, if the incident is presented with all the facts, a person can make an informed decision as to his or her' personal safety and go about his or her daily activities without fear of being assaulted by a gang of marauding rapists. Lurid stories are a disservice to the local community and to other victims of sexual assault.

Edited January 15, 2011 by geriatrickid

[MJP]

So what? He has reported something like any other journalist would.

Not exactly. A journalist working for a publication that has standards of quality such as the New York Tines, or the Economist for example would have provided all of the facts in a less opionated manner.

The incident Daily Mail version of the incident was missing some details which others have provided in this thread. Those two or three lines of additional information were important parts of the story and were perhaps intentionally left out as they would not have supported the article's "flow".

Problem highlighted in red. Did the story involve welfare dependent Muslim asylum seekers with 38 children living in a 15 million pound 1 bedroom flat in Hackney?

[andrewdrummond]

So what? He has reported something like any other journalist would.

Not exactly. A journalist working for a publication that has standards of quality such as the New York Times, or the Economist for example would have provided all of the facts in a less opionated manner.

The Daily Mail version of the incident was missing some details which others have provided in this thread. Those two or three lines of additional information were important parts of the story and were perhaps intentionally left out as they would not have supported the article's "flow".

No one disputes that rape is a wrong. However, readers have a right to know if this was a rape or if this was a sexual assault intended as a threat or a settling of accounts. For example, if someone is shot by a gangster, it is an integral part of the story to report if that victim was working in the community of gangsters or was an innocent passerby. In respect to the general security of people, and the local community there is a big difference between a victim that is raped while going about his or her daily activities and one that is engaged in questionable activities. If an article is presented as a "gang rape" what is a regular person to think? Should they venture out, are they safe? On the other hand, if the incident is presented with all the facts, a person can make an informed decision as to his or her' personal safety and go about his or her daily activities without fear of being assaulted by a gang of marauding rapists. Lurid stories are a disservice to the local community and to other victims of sexual assault.

I am fairly confident that there are scores of foreign women raped in Thailand every year. But well, of course, because they they do not pe#ursue the matter through the courts, I suppose according to your logic these rapes have not happened. Nevertheless the British Foreign Office does collate the figures and reports them on an annual basis, as do other countries. Should they keep these figures secret?

While you quote from the non existent Association of Professional Journalists (I think you mean the Society) perhaps you can highlight the parts of the story which should not have been mentioned. The Economist is not a a newspaper and does not report on rape, though I have written about the Pattaya sex trade for this publication. The NY Times is generally unconcerned with the personal welfare of individual citizens abroad.

Are you trying to tell us you are a reader of these newspapers and perhaps have a high IQ?

You say: "There is a big difference between a victim that is raped while going about his of her daily activities and one that is engaged in questionable activities?'

What are you trying to say here Geriatric Kid? The girl worked time share, she was on overstay, she had no money. She owed money. If the girl was a professional prostitute and was sexually penetrated without her agreement that is still rape.

A settling of account! Oh she owes somebody money, so somebody could having some free sex in lieu and that's okay?

The FCO believed the girl's story or gave her the benefit of the doubt or they would not have helped her. The local press have confirmed that the girl went with the Embassy to the police (but she would not press charges) so what is it here you have a problem about, The fact that the rapists spoke to the girls mother in the middle of this ordeal?

Rape is a crime. Crime is reported. Sometimes there is a service element to that report, often there is not. If the media follow your ethos, then of course we probably would not even know about Jack the Ripper, or certainly not the details.

I have been offered the opportunity to speak to this girl. Quite frankly I do not want to ask her to relate in detail what happened to her, But perhaps a trained counsellor might.

Visitors to Thailand should know that despite the welcoming smiles there can be dark areas here and that they should be on their guard particularly when enjoying a night out.

So less wind please GK. :-)

The Daily Mail left no information out which they had at the time by the way so no need to imagine naughty gremlins

Edited January 15, 2011 by andrewdrummond

[jillwilliams999]

Thanks the lord that she is now safe at home.

[andrewdrummond]

Headline:

Girl Cries Rape to Avoid Paying Visa Overstay Fine.

Has a catchy tone don't you think?????

Or "British Girl Exploits Loophole to get Free Ticket Home".

She did not get a free ticket home. She will have to pay the FCo back.

[webfact]

British woman leaves Phuket after declining to pursue rape charge

By SALINEE PRAB

THE NATION ON SUNDAY

PHUKET

Police have confirmed that a rape complaint was filed by a 23-year-old British tourist on December 23, but said the woman had not given full details about the alleged incident, then dropped the compliant and returned home.

This followed news by British media that the British woman was gang-raped in a Patong Beach hotel by three Swedish and three Thai men, who then allegedly phoned her mum in England and threatened to rape her again if she didn't send them money.

Krathu police station deputy superintendent Lt-Colonel Kittipong Khlaikaew said yesterday that, after the woman filed the complaint with police on December 23, they had her undergo a body examination at Patong Hospital and told her to write down additional details and give that report to them on the next day.

Kittipong affirmed that police proceeded with the case in required steps and contacted Britain's Honorary Consul in Phuket, Martin Carpenter, to hear her testimony, but he said the woman then told police she wanted to drop the complaint and return home.

Phuket police chief Maj-General Pekad Tantipong said he had been told that the complaint was filed and police investigators also invited the British Honorary Consul to be a witness. But the woman declined to give further details, then dropped the complaint and returned to her home country.

-- The Nation 2011-01-16

[Nisa]

I wonder if she told them she wanted to drop the complaint or she was told if she returned home they would drop the case.

[geriatrickid]

I am fairly confident that there are scores of foreign women raped in Thailand every year. But well, of course, because they they do not pe#ursue the matter through the courts, I suppose according to your logic these rapes have not happened. Nevertheless the British Foreign Office does collate the figures and reports them on an annual basis, as do other countries. Should they keep these figures secret?

While you quote from the non existent Association of Professional Journalists (I think you mean the Society) perhaps you can highlight the parts of the story which should not have been mentioned. The Economist is not a a newspaper and does not report on rape, though I have written about the Pattaya sex trade for this publication. The NY Times is generally unconcerned with the personal welfare of individual citizens abroad.

Are you trying to tell us you are a reader of these newspapers and perhaps have a high IQ?

You say: "There is a big difference between a victim that is raped while going about his of her daily activities and one that is engaged in questionable activities?'

What are you trying to say here Geriatric Kid? The girl worked time share, she was on overstay, she had no money. She owed money. If the girl was a professional prostitute and was sexually penetrated without her agreement that is still rape.

A settling of account! Oh she owes somebody money, so somebody could having some free sex in lieu and that's okay?

The FCO believed the girl's story or gave her the benefit of the doubt or they would not have helped her. The local press have confirmed that the girl went with the Embassy to the police (but she would not press charges) so what is it here you have a problem about, The fact that the rapists spoke to the girls mother in the middle of this ordeal?

Rape is a crime. Crime is reported. Sometimes there is a service element to that report, often there is not. If the media follow your ethos, then of course we probably would not even know about Jack the Ripper, or certainly not the details.

I have been offered the opportunity to speak to this girl. Quite frankly I do not want to ask her to relate in detail what happened to her, But perhaps a trained counsellor might.

Visitors to Thailand should know that despite the welcoming smiles there can be dark areas here and that they should be on their guard particularly when enjoying a night out.

So less wind please GK. :-)

The Daily Mail left no information out which they had at the time by the way so no need to imagine naughty gremlins

Nice attempt to steer this off on a tangent. I do not deny that rape is a major problem and that rapes occur on a regular basis in Thailand just as they do elsewhere. Let's look at some of your statements;

Nevertheless the British Foreign Office does collate the figures and reports them on an annual basis, as do other countries. Should they keep these figures secret?

No, but what does that have to do with this specific case? Again, you are going off on a tangent in what seems to be an attempt to direct attention away from your opinionated piece.

While you quote from the non existent Association of Professional Journalists (I think you mean the Society) perhaps you can highlight the parts of the story which should not have been mentioned.

Ok, I made a transcription error with one word. I did not state that information should not have been mentioned. Rather, I pointed out that some important deails were left out of your report. These were provided in the thread by another person who had read Thai Rath. I do however, find that some of the adjectives in the article do more to pander to lurid voyeurism rather than a reporting of the facts. No doubt there will be some News of the World and Hello readers that disagree with me. It's a personal preference.

The Economist is not a a newspaper and does not report on rape, though I have written about the Pattaya sex trade for this publication. The NY Times is generally unconcerned with the personal welfare of individual citizens abroad.

The Economist is subject to the same type of ethical standards as the The Times, WSJ, NYT, Figaro etc. and has run multiple detailed articles on Rape, with the most recent example in this month's Jan. 12 edition. It is supported with more details in the journalists Economist blogs. I believe the NYT would disagree with your opinion. I most certainly do. The NYT has provided extensive coverage on Thailand.

Are you trying to tell us you are a reader of these newspapers and perhaps have a high IQ?

No. My IQ has no bearing here. Are you insecure or what? Why mention this?

You say: "There is a big difference between a victim that is raped while going about his of her daily activities and one that is engaged in questionable activities? What are you trying to say here Geriatric Kid? The girl worked time share, she was on overstay, she had no money. She owed money. If the girl was a professional prostitute and was sexually penetrated without her agreement that is still rape.

Yes, it is still rape. However, when complete background information is not provided it does make a difference. Prostitutes are often brutalized and rape is but one of the nasty job risks that they suffer. However, if hooker is brutalized whilst engaged in her activities, it is significantly different than if Mrs. Parker is on her way to market and attacked by a gang of thugs and violated. If a drug pusher is shot while selling his wares, it is significantly different than Mr. Parker who is shot whilst walking to the bus stop.

A settling of account! Oh she owes somebody money, so somebody could having some free sex in lieu and that's okay?

No. I never stated that the sex was in lieu of a debt settlement. Sexual assault can be n used to intimidate and brutalize those involved in disputes and conflicts. Although the perpatrators of such crimes are dangerous, they present a a lesser risk to tourists since their crimes are specific. Reading your Daily Mail story some potential tourists may develop the impression that there is a gang of rapists on the loose in Patong targeting women. This event may very well have been related to a dispute, or it may have not. It doesn't lessen the crime, but it means that Mr. & Mrs. Jones that are considering a visit to Phuket need not worry about being waylaid by a gang of rapists. Rape is typically more prevalent in tourist destinations because people let their guard down. However, this was not a run of the mill rape. In Phuket, young female tourists are attacked when they are jogging or taking a walk on the beach or when they misjudge their relationships with the beachboys they befriend. This had none of those characteristics. The relationship with the Swede that she knew is ignored. Or did she just hook up with a random Swede?

The FCO believed the girl's story or gave her the benefit of the doubt or they would not have helped her.

Not exactly. As you well know, the standing instructions are to respond on all allegations of sexual assuault against women and minors. To not do so even in a quesionable event would have resulted in an article by someone like you in the Daily Mail lambasting the FCO for insensitivity. As well, it is best to err on the side of compassion. It's one of those situations where the FCO had to respond as it did. I never questioned the FCO response.

The local press have confirmed that the girl went with the Embassy to the police (but she would not press charges) so what is it here you have a problem about, The fact that the rapists spoke to the girls mother in the middle of this ordeal?

That is what you allege. Were they actually laughing or is that artistic license, or an exagerated claim by the woman. Rapists do not usually call people's parents and ask for money. Serial rapists will often taunt the police, but this wasn't such a case. This part of the story is a flashing neon sign. Think about it. They call the mother and demand money or else they will violate the woman again? Just how did they expect to get this money? Considering the time differences, it is not like the mother could do a bank transfer just like that. And even if it was a cash transfer service like Western Union, id cards would have to be presented when collecting the cash. What kind of rapist would go and leave an obvious trail? Why haven't you investigated this aspect of the story and not just the titillating aspect of a "gang rape". What did the rape kit produce? If there were multiple perps, there surely will be evidence of that, unless all of the perps has shaved & waxed their lower regions removing all traces of pubic hair and of course used condoms and made sure not to leave any saliva or other bodily secretions. Swabs are quite good at picking even minute traces of DNA.

Rape is a crime. Crime is reported. Sometimes there is a service element to that report, often there is not. If the media follow your ethos, then of course we probably would not even know about Jack the Ripper, or certainly not the details.

Rubbish. I am not objecting to the publication of details. I am questioning the slanting of the information provided.

I have been offered the opportunity to speak to this girl. Quite frankly I do not want to ask her to relate in detail what happened to her, But perhaps a trained counsellor might.

Why not? It would give you an opportunity to obtain additional information. The woman certainly had no problem in relaying that the mother was called Although I recognize that rape often results in emotional trauma, this woman may be a lot tougher than you think. After all she had no problem pushing time shares on elderly tourists, and she certainly didn't have any shyness issues when it came to carrying on in public. I don't think she will have a problem discussing the matter with you if you are your usual caring and sensitive self.

Visitors to Thailand should know that despite the welcoming smiles there can be dark areas here and that they should be on their guard particularly when enjoying a night out.

I do not think this was a simple night out and your statement is a cop out. This was an extraordinary event and does not follow the standard rape scenarios of tourists in Thailand. You earlier referenced the tracking of rape by the FCO. If you look at the data you will see a section for incidents related to assaults by members of the traveling party. A significant number of the rapes are committed by fellow foreigners. Just how many rapes were recorded in the last year involving a case with similar characteristics? I believe this is the first one. Unfortunately, rape has common characteristics and this is one very unusual case.

So less wind please GK. :-)

Old saying; He who smelt it, dealt it.

Edited January 16, 2011 by geriatrickid

[DP25]

This part of the story is a flashing neon sign. Think about it. They call the mother and demand money or else they will violate the woman again. Just how did they expect to get this money? Considering the time differences, it is not like the woman could do a bank transfer just like that. And even if it was a cash transfer service like Western Union, id cards would have to be presented when collecting the cash. What kind of rapists would go and leave a trail? Why haven't you investigated this aspect of the story and not just the titillating aspect of a "gang rape".

Why? That doesn't sell articles to the British tabloids.

[dekbahnnok]

This part of the story is a flashing neon sign. Think about it. They call the mother and demand money or else they will violate the woman again. Just how did they expect to get this money? Considering the time differences, it is not like the woman could do a bank transfer just like that. And even if it was a cash transfer service like Western Union, id cards would have to be presented when collecting the cash. What kind of rapists would go and leave a trail? Why haven't you investigated this aspect of the story and not just the titillating aspect of a "gang rape".

Why? That doesn't sell articles to the British tabloids.

There was a previous case in Samui where the perps attacked a girl while she was talking to her mother on the phone who was in England. Later she she was found on the beach dead and after a few days some Burmese males were arrested. Most people familiar with Southern Thailand would not be surprised to learn that the perps in this case would be stupid enough to phone the victim's parents and demand money.

Edited January 16, 2011 by dekbahnnok

[jayjay0]

I am so glad she is safe I have been worried sick.

Lets keep this going for 100 more pages.

Interesting how we can debate various topics here and carry on adnousiem about it. While we cheerfully jump on a Beaten by six men woman in Patong and use it as a point to bash BiB and to a lesser point all Thais. When we have done that move on to another case and beat it to death. What will be the next thrilling chapter in adnausium.

Edited January 16, 2011 by jayjay0

[andrewdrummond]

I am fairly confident that there are scores of foreign women raped in Thailand every year. But well, of course, because they they do not pe#ursue the matter through the courts, I suppose according to your logic these rapes have not happened. Nevertheless the British Foreign Office does collate the figures and reports them on an annual basis, as do other countries. Should they keep these figures secret?

While you quote from the non existent Association of Professional Journalists (I think you mean the Society) perhaps you can highlight the parts of the story which should not have been mentioned. The Economist is not a a newspaper and does not report on rape, though I have written about the Pattaya sex trade for this publication. The NY Times is generally unconcerned with the personal welfare of individual citizens abroad.

Are you trying to tell us you are a reader of these newspapers and perhaps have a high IQ?

You say: "There is a big difference between a victim that is raped while going about his of her daily activities and one that is engaged in questionable activities?'

What are you trying to say here Geriatric Kid? The girl worked time share, she was on overstay, she had no money. She owed money. If the girl was a professional prostitute and was sexually penetrated without her agreement that is still rape.

A settling of account! Oh she owes somebody money, so somebody could having some free sex in lieu and that's okay?

The FCO believed the girl's story or gave her the benefit of the doubt or they would not have helped her. The local press have confirmed that the girl went with the Embassy to the police (but she would not press charges) so what is it here you have a problem about, The fact that the rapists spoke to the girls mother in the middle of this ordeal?

Rape is a crime. Crime is reported. Sometimes there is a service element to that report, often there is not. If the media follow your ethos, then of course we probably would not even know about Jack the Ripper, or certainly not the details.

I have been offered the opportunity to speak to this girl. Quite frankly I do not want to ask her to relate in detail what happened to her, But perhaps a trained counsellor might.

Visitors to Thailand should know that despite the welcoming smiles there can be dark areas here and that they should be on their guard particularly when enjoying a night out.

So less wind please GK. :-)

The Daily Mail left no information out which they had at the time by the way so no need to imagine naughty gremlins

Nice attempt to steer this off on a tangent. I do not deny that rape is a major problem and that rapes occur on a regular basis in Thailand just as they do elsewhere.

Let's look at some of your statements;

Nevertheless the British Foreign Office does collate the figures and reports them on an annual basis, as do other countries. Should they keep these figures secret?

No, but what does that have to do with this specific case? Again, you are going off on a tangent in what seems to be an attempt to direct attention away from your opinionated piece.

While you quote from the non existent Association of Professional Journalists (I think you mean the Society) perhaps you can highlight the parts of the story which should not have been mentioned.

Ok, I made a transcription error with one word. I did not state that information should not have been mentioned. Rather, I pointed out that some important deails were left out of your report. These were provided in the thread by another person who had read Thai Rath. I do however, find that some of the adjectives in the article do more to pander to lurid voyeurism rather than a reporting of the facts. No doubt there will be some News of the World and Hello readers that disagree with me. It's a personal preference.

The Economist is not a a newspaper and does not report on rape, though I have written about the Pattaya sex trade for this publication. The NY Times is generally unconcerned with the personal welfare of individual citizens abroad.

The Economist is subject to the same type of ethical standards as the The Times, WSJ, NYT, Figaro etc. and has run multiple detailed articles on Rape, with the most recent example in this month's Jan. 12 edition. It is supported with more details in the journalists Economist blogs. I believe the NYT would disagree with your opinion. I most certainly do. The NYT has provided extensive coverage on Thailand.

Are you trying to tell us you are a reader of these newspapers and perhaps have a high IQ?

No. My IQ has no bearing here. Are you insecure or what? Why mention this?

You say: "There is a big difference between a victim that is raped while going about his of her daily activities and one that is engaged in questionable activities?'

What are you trying to say here Geriatric Kid? The girl worked time share, she was on overstay, she had no money. She owed money. If the girl was a professional prostitute and was sexually penetrated without her agreement that is still rape.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

Yes, it is still rape. However, when an complete background information is not provided it does make a difference. Prostitutes are often brutalized and rape is but one of the nasty job risks that they suffer. However, if hooker is brutalized whilst engaged in her activities, it is significantly different than if Mrs. Parker is on her way to market and attacked by a gang of thugs and violated. If a drug pusher is shot while selling his wares, it is significantly different than Mr. Parker who is shot whilst walking to the bus stop.

A settling of account! Oh she owes somebody money, so somebody could having some free sex in lieu and that's okay?

No. I never stated that. Often sexual assault is used to intimidate and brutalize those involved in disputes and conflicts. Although the perpatrators of such crimes are dangerous, they present a a lesser risk to tourists. Reading your Daily Mail, story some potential tourists may develop the impression that there is a gang of rapists on the loose in Patong targeting women. This event may very well have been related to a dispute, or it may have not. It doesn't lessen the crime, but it means that Mr. & Mrs. Jones that are considering a visit to Phuket need not worry about being waylaid by a gang of rapists. Rape is almost always more prevalent in tourist destinations because people let their guard down. However, this was not a run of the mill rape. In Phuket, young female tourists are attacked when they are jogging or taking a walk on the beach or when they misjudge their relationships with the beachboys they befriend. This had none of those characteristics. The relationship with the Swede that she knew is ignored. Or did she just hook up with a random Swede?

The FCO believed the girl's story or gave her the benefit of the doubt or they would not have helped her.

Not exactly. As you well know, the standing instructions are to respond on all allegations of sexual assuault against women and minors. To not do so even in a probable bogus event would have resulted in an article by someone like you in the Daily Mail lambasting the FCO for insensitivity. As well, it is best to err on the side of compassion. It's one of those situations where the FCO had to respond as it did.

The local press have confirmed that the girl went with the Embassy to the police (but she would not press charges) so what is it here you have a problem about, The fact that the rapists spoke to the girls mother in the middle of this ordeal?

That is what you allege. Were they actually laughing or is that artistic license, or an exagerated claim by the women. Rapists do not usually call people's parents and ask for money. Serial rapists will often taunt the police, but this wasn't such a case. This part of the story is a flashing neon sign. Think about it. They call the mother and demand money or else they will violate the woman again. Just how did they expect to get this money? Considering the time differences, it is not like the woman could do a bank transfer just like that. And even if it was a cash transfer service like Western Union, id cards would have to be presented when collecting the cash. What kind of rapists would go and leave a trail? Why haven't you investigated this aspect of the story and not just the titillating aspect of a "gang rape". I'd be more concerned about a gang extorting money and using sexual assault as ameans of leverage

Rape is a crime. Crime is reported. Sometimes there is a service element to that report, often there is not. If the media follow your ethos, then of course we probably would not even know about Jack the Ripper, or certainly not the details.

Rubbish. I am not objecting to the publication of details. I am questioning the slanting of the information provided.

I have been offered the opportunity to speak to this girl. Quite frankly I do not want to ask her to relate in detail what happened to her, But perhaps a trained counsellor might.

Why not? It would give you an opportunity to obtain additional information. The woman certainly had no problem in relaying that the mother was called Although I recognize that rape often results in emotional trauma, this woman may be a lot tougher than you think. After all she had no problem pushing time shares on elderly tourists, and she certainly didn't have any shyness issues when it came to carrying on in public. I don't think she will have a problem discussing the matter with you if you are your usual caring and sensitive self.

Visitors to Thailand should know that despite the welcoming smiles there can be dark areas here and that they should be on their guard particularly when enjoying a night out.

I do not think this was a simple night out and your statement is a cop out. This was an extroardinary event and does not follow the standard rape scenarios of tourists in Thailand. You earlier referenced the tracking of rape by the FCO. If you look at the data you will see a section for incidents related to assaults by members of the traveling party. Just how many rapes were recorded in the last year involving a case with these characteristics? I believe this is the first one.

So less wind please GK. :-)

Old saying; He who smelt it, dealt it.

There is no suggestion in the Daily Mail article that there is a gang of serial rapists at large. Serial rapists don't as a rule taunt the police. Some have and that's when it makes a bigger news story.

The FCO specifically states there were six rapes of Britons in Thailand during the last year statistics are available. The FCO also warns women of the dangers of sexual attacks in Thailand. Show me the prosecutions. While I did not, the Daily Mail led on the fact that a call was made to the girl's mother durng the course of the alleged rape. The newspaper has the right to pick up on the most alarming part of the story as they often do. In fact its what they do. If the FCO thought the girls was just trying to con an advance for a ticket home then I doubt they would have provided so much assistance. But you are right. If they did not take the matter seriouslty they would have come in for criticism.

There is no suggestion that the alleged rapists gave out their bank account numbers. The fact that they demanded cash was I presume some smart alec's act of bravado so no need to slog on about Western Union and bank transfers.

Finally what is the standard rape scenario of tourists in Thailand GK? Thai boyfriends and Thais laying in wait for joggers, I do not think so. At least half is farang on farang. And Samui/Phangnan seem to be the hot spots. I suspect drink is involved in most cases and judgments are thus impaired. There's no slanting of information. The alleged rapists were not available for comment to say this women was gagging for it.

Her relationship with the Swede in the context of rape is neither here nor there. The fact that she went back to the room with the Swede suggests she was going to consent. That does not mean she wanted to take on half a football team.

And finally again the NY Times is unconcerned with individual sex attacks against US citizens abroad and the Economist does not as a rule report on individual rape cases of insignificant UK citizens.

Having worked for the Times for ten years and prior to that the Observer I do not need to be instructed about their work ethics. But needless to say they do not always get it right.

You still haven't explained how owing money could be a contributory cause btw.

ps: You obviously have little idea of the content of 'Hello' magazine btw.

Edited January 16, 2011 by andrewdrummond

[andrewdrummond]

Fans of Geriatric Kid can read more on the Pai thread http://www.thaivisa....h/page__st__100

where by producing a similar series of irrelevant assertions he argues why a policeman in Pai may not have murdered Leo Del Pinto.

Edited January 17, 2011 by cdnvic
removed excessive quotation

[jayjay0]

Good job you two keep it up we can get to 100 pages in no time at all.

Edited January 17, 2011 by cdnvic
removed excessive quotation

[andrewdrummond]

That's my last :-)

Edited January 17, 2011 by cdnvic
removed excessive quotation

[geriatrickid]

Mr. Drummond,

Try as you might, your attempts to turn the discussion away from the specific case are not succeeding.

You state that There is no suggestion that the alleged rapists gave out their bank account numbers. The fact that they demanded cash was I presume some smart alec's act of bravado so no need to slog on about Western Union and bank transfers.

I never stated that the alleged rapists gave out their bank account numbers. However, it does beg the question as to what was the point of running an article that said the rapists demanded money or else they would rape the woman. You say it is a fact that they demanded cash. No, it was a claim offered up by the woman making the claim of rape. At this time it is not an established fact. Just how were they going to get this cash? You then say you presume it to be an act of bravado. A presumption is not a fact. If no details were given as to how this cash was to be delivered, why present it as a "fact"? This is why the story has a serious hole in it. Why would anyone demand cash in a case like this if there was no intent to get cash. It is not unreasonable to question this aspect of the story.

And now you finally deal with the underlying subject that is of importance: The rape of UK citizens in Thailand.

Finally what is the standard rape scenario of tourists in Thailand GK? Thai boyfriends and Thais laying in wait for joggers, I do not think so. At least half is farang on farang. And Samui/Phangnan seem to be the hot spots. I suspect drink is involved in most cases and judgments are thus impaired. There's no slanting of information. The alleged rapists were not available for comment to say this women was gagging for it.

Her relationship with the Swede in the context of rape is neither here nor there. The fact that she went back to the room with the Swede suggests she was going to consent. That does not mean she wanted to take on half a football team.

Read what I wrote again.

I do not think this was a simple night out and your statement is a cop out. This was an extroardinary event and does not follow the standard rape scenarios of tourists in Thailand. You earlier referenced the tracking of rape by the FCO. If you look at the data you will see a section for incidents related to assaults by members of the traveling party. Just how many rapes were recorded in the last year involving a case with these characteristics? I believe this is the first one.

Let's put aside the rapes that are not reported. These are the ones where traveling partners or fellow country are most likely to be implicated. Everyone recognizes that sexual assaults are under reported. However, you are now acknowledging my point(s) but presenting it as if you raised the issue first. I highlighted that this specific incident was extraordinary since the circumstances were unusual. Yes, there were 6 reported rapes suffered by UK nationals while visiting Thailand.. For the sake of determining the incidence, these nationals become part of the local population. This means there were 6 rapes out of a population of almost 68,000,000. There were approx. 800,000 visitors visitors from the UK recorded last year. So even if one only wants to look at the population of visitors, the incidence is 6 out of 800,000. Now compare that to the estimated 47,000 rapes reported in the UK population of almost 62,000,000. One not need be a rocket scientist to see that the incidence of rape is much lower for UK nationals visiting Thailand than it is if these people remained in the UK. Phuket is quite safe. And that is one of my concerns.

Your article leads some people to believe that Phuket was "dangerous" in respect to rapes. One need only review some of the comments in various forums where your article has been placed to understand this. Phuket has its problems, but violent sexual assaults are not at the top of the list. Women need not be fearful of their security should they take normal sensible precautions.

I see that you refer to the unresolved questions in respect to the Pai autopsies. You never answered on the discrepancy between the conclusions reported by Dr. Pornthip and the Alberta ME. I'm not going to continue that in here, but it does once again raise my concern that you are non plussed by the importance of medical reports and the need for reliable evidence. Your article leaves the impression that the local consul assisted the alleged victim with obtaining medical assistance. Did he? Surely, if she was claiming rape, appropriate swabs and specimen collection was undertaken. When women are hesitant due to trauma, the specimens can be collected as part of the normal physical exam so as to minimize emotional trauma and then the woman is informed that a SAFE pack exam was made. If this woman was violated multiple times, do you think any concern was voiced in respect to HIV? If so she would have been started on PEP immediately. No mention is made of this. In cases of rape, the protocol in Thailand is to make PEP available as an option The preferred medical provider for the British consul is able to provide the medication.

I think this alleged rape story raises a great many questions, none of which you have answered or will answer.

[Wallaby]

Geriatrickid give it a rest will you.

Take it up with the police, not a reporter who reports.

Jeeeez

Edited January 16, 2011 by Wallaby

[waza]

Geriatrickid give it a rest will you.

Ditto

[hhiser]

Assuming it is correct i hope the sick F345s who did this feel sick with guilt for the rest of their lives.....hopefully it will come back to ruin their lives...

2 things i think strange.....if it wasn't true why would there be any calling of her Mum be involved? That is a very strange thing to make up and about the sickest thing i have heard,

Secondly, I find it very strange that swede and thais would act in collaboration on some like this and if they did then hopefully the sick alliance will fall apart....

If this is all B/S then she is one messed up girl........

It says they called her mum to ask for money, this is why it is possible the girl was not attacked, it is possible that it is a way to get money from her parents. I am not saying this is fact, the truth is none of us know for sure if she was raped or not, but we should assume that she was at this point until evidence proves otherwise.

I think it would be more apropos to reserve judgment. But that does not mean we can not question the validity of the story.

Edited January 17, 2011 by hhiser

[andrewdrummond]

I think it would be more apropos to reserve judgment. But that does not mean we can not question the validity of the story.

Indeed but here is an article eminently better than what was offered by the Bangkok Post

http://www.phuketgaz...rticle9763.html

The article points out that there was no female police officer to interview the rape victim. When you take this and couple it with news from another Phuket website that police said they offered the girl the chance to bring charges on three seperate occasions, it may be fair to deduce one reason why the woman decided to go home was that she had been interviewed by at least three male police officers, before even a statement was taken, and she was not enjoying the process.

The British government and Australian government have spent what must now amount to millions in providing courses for Thai police in how to deal with rape, and sexual attacks on children. The fact that one of the biggest tourist destinations in Thailand still does not have a female officer trained in this area speaks volumes.

The British Consul is quoted as saying that Phuket Police acted properley throughout. He did not mention there was not a female police officer available, which is pertinent.

Edited January 17, 2011 by andrewdrummond

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Reading Geriatrickid's posts today makes me feel physically sick. This is not a personal attack in any way, but his opinions on this thread and disregard for any sensitivity is hard to stomach...and makes a bit of mockery of his comments on Drummond's sensationalism! Women are raped and raped and raped, statistically the numbers are huge, so let's not feel sorry for UNNAMED agressors and maybe spare a bit of compassion for this girl. After all no one else is a victim here.

[Pi Sek]

Reading Geriatrickid's posts today makes me feel physically sick. This is not a personal attack in any way, but his opinions on this thread and disregard for any sensitivity is hard to stomach...and makes a bit of mockery of his comments on Drummond's sensationalism! Women are raped and raped and raped, statistically the numbers are huge, so let's not feel sorry for UNNAMED agressors and maybe spare a bit of compassion for this girl. After all no one else is a victim here.

Personally I agree with you (jao!) on Geriatrickid's posts, and I can understand Andrew Drummond's frustration.

However, to play devil's advocate, Geriatrickid is correct in that he is suggesting/asking for more critical journalism... whilst I like Mr. Drummond's articles and feel that he is addressing new ground in his style of uncovering things like this, the Pai murder, etc, I cannot help but notice that there are some necessary questions which are missing. I trust Mr. Drummond will take this criticism on the chin and use it to improve the quality of his already-commendable work.

As to who is the victim here - well, again I'm playing devil's advocate, but crying 'rape' does happen, so it's possible that the insurance compnay is the victim. Having said that, I have to agree with "random", whom I don't exactly hold in the highest regard and I'm sure it's mutual - one should assume under the circumstances of a rape allegation that a rape might have happened rather than a rape might not have happened, because there might have been one.

[thaibeachlovers]

Reading Geriatrickid's posts today makes me feel physically sick. This is not a personal attack in any way, but his opinions on this thread and disregard for any sensitivity is hard to stomach...and makes a bit of mockery of his comments on Drummond's sensationalism! Women are raped and raped and raped, statistically the numbers are huge, so let's not feel sorry for UNNAMED agressors and maybe spare a bit of compassion for this girl. After all no one else is a victim here.

Whether women are raped is not at issue. Whether this particular one was has not been proven. In fact, we do not even know if there was an agressor. As already stated, it would be simple to ascertain if there was indeed a person in the room by using the hotel records.

Saying something does not make it true. You can not say she is a victim based on an unproven accusation.

Many lurid accounts are printed in the British gutter press about rapes which are later proven to be false. By that time, though, the man's life is ruined, while the woman remained anonymous. Hardly justice.

[thaibeachlovers]

Reading Geriatrickid's posts today makes me feel physically sick. This is not a personal attack in any way, but his opinions on this thread and disregard for any sensitivity is hard to stomach...and makes a bit of mockery of his comments on Drummond's sensationalism! Women are raped and raped and raped, statistically the numbers are huge, so let's not feel sorry for UNNAMED agressors and maybe spare a bit of compassion for this girl. After all no one else is a victim here.

Personally I agree with you (jao!) on Geriatrickid's posts, and I can understand Andrew Drummond's frustration.

However, to play devil's advocate, Geriatrickid is correct in that he is suggesting/asking for more critical journalism... whilst I like Mr. Drummond's articles and feel that he is addressing new ground in his style of uncovering things like this, the Pai murder, etc, I cannot help but notice that there are some necessary questions which are missing. I trust Mr. Drummond will take this criticism on the chin and use it to improve the quality of his already-commendable work.

As to who is the victim here - well, again I'm playing devil's advocate, but crying 'rape' does happen, so it's possible that the insurance compnay is the victim. Having said that, I have to agree with "random", whom I don't exactly hold in the highest regard and I'm sure it's mutual - one should assume under the circumstances of a rape allegation that a rape might have happened rather than a rape might not have happened, because there might have been one.

False accusations of rape happen all the time. That is why there is a presumption of innocence, till PROVEN guilty, for the accused.

Unfortunately, too many newspapers report rapes as if the male is already proven guilty. While it may sell newspapers, there is far too much trial by media going on.