Chiangmai Friends

[venturalaw]

Of course in this case the Thai Way is not not to ask pertinent questions. It is to put on a brightly coloured shirt and go and occupy somewhere important. Then the polititians etc come to them to talk and if the people do not like what is said they burn down a building or two. Shall we say polka dot shirts at the Airport plaza corner?

It's apparent that you have never attended a CMF meeting. A larger percentage of the attendees/members are from countries other than Thailand, the attire is business casual and the questions are not censored.

Not sure if Venuralaw has had his coffee yet.

You are correct. I stopped drinking coffee approximately a year ago. I have been attending the CMF meetings for close to the three years of its existence. Although some westerners show up in colorful shirts, the politicians that have been guest speakers, for the most part, were subject to whatever questions the attendees posed.

[CMX]

Venturelaw,

IS it not possible that important officials are tired of the experience of answering pointed questions by a mess of foreigners - not in their job description? I'm but a year only here, and am trying to learn the terrain.

And no matter what I pay, I don't discomfort higher officials. The practice may have occurred in the past, but that was an experiment and it's over, apparently, according to the author of the original message, located somewhere in the rarified air of higher powers.

Neither ego nor arrogance work for expats, saving probably multi-millionaire business investors with connections. As that Greek guy opines, they'll just stop coming if a challenging (insulting) question is asked by a farang, drunk or sober.

However, in sum our money is wanted, so there is a bit of safety in our numbers assembled.

[venturalaw]

Venturelaw,

IS it not possible that important officials are tired of the experience of answering pointed questions by a mess of foreigners - not in their job description? I'm but a year only here, and am trying to learn the terrain.

And no matter what I pay, I don't discomfort higher officials. The practice may have occurred in the past, but that was an experiment and it's over, apparently, according to the author of the original message, located somewhere in the rarified air of higher powers.

Neither ego nor arrogance work for expats, saving probably multi-millionaire business investors with connections. As that Greek guy opines, they'll just stop coming if a challenging (insulting) question is asked by a farang, drunk or sober.

However, in sum our money is wanted, so there is a bit of safety in our numbers assembled.

The CMF group provides an atmosphere where the exchange between guest speakers and the attendees is non-confrontational. I have never experienced the guests being 'under-the-gun'. It's really, at the risk of sounding corny, a 'friendly' (as in Chiang Mai Friends) atmosphere. As I suggested earlier, unless one has been to some of the meetings, how can one presume to be able to report on what occurs?

Edited January 20, 2011 by venturalaw

[cm96]

As far as I have seen, they are a nice bunch and very enthusiastic and also very active. So, nothing wrong with that, they do good deeds, they get together, they have a good time, all harmless stuff. And I don't think that 599 is too expensive, these events do cost a lot of money to organise - sound systems, staff, stage, food, lighting, etc. However, I did have to giggle a bit at the comment about how donating the Thai way was unlike the western way where it is an investment! As far as I see, many of my Thai friends and family do good deeds and donate for the investment in their next life - the karma. And I think that the west is much more known for charitable work than the east. But that is just my perspective.

Quite right. Quintessentially (selfish) Thai behaviour; they would rather donate towards the mystical belief that they will return and hence are HELPING THEMSELVES.

Rather than the "western" way (charitable work) which is helping those who matter: The ones who are living here and now.

Exhibit A: Tipping low salaried waiters at restaurants. Thais pucker up tighter than a snare drum.

[caf]

Of course in this case the Thai Way is not not to ask pertinent questions. It is to put on a brightly coloured shirt and go and occupy somewhere important. Then the polititians etc come to them to talk and if the people do not like what is said they burn down a building or two. Shall we say polka dot shirts at the Airport plaza corner?

It's apparent that you have never attended a CMF meeting. A larger percentage of the attendees/members are from countries other than Thailand, the attire is business casual and the questions are not censored.

Not sure if Venuralaw has had his coffee yet.

With replies like that, Harry, perhaps he should start drinking coffee again if it helps him to post about reality rather than the usual thai apologist propaganda.

The questions are never very or even mildly controversial. There may not be any censorship but there are plenty of planted and loaded questions. Any question an official does not like is not answered properly and the unwritten understanding is not to ask such questions. In that sense the questions are controlled

Regrettably there are many expats that are like school children sucking up to teacher when it comes to currying favor with the "hi so" thai groups

Go to a meeting and see for yourself. The email that started this thread off shows how this group thinks

Edited January 20, 2011 by caf

[richard10365]

Of course in this case the Thai Way is not not to ask pertinent questions. It is to put on a brightly coloured shirt and go and occupy somewhere important. Then the polititians etc come to them to talk and if the people do not like what is said they burn down a building or two. Shall we say polka dot shirts at the Airport plaza corner?

It's apparent that you have never attended a CMF meeting. A larger percentage of the attendees/members are from countries other than Thailand, the attire is business casual and the questions are not censored.

Not sure if Venuralaw has had his coffee yet.

With replies like that, Harry, perhaps he should start drinking coffee again if it helps him to post about reality rather than the usual thai apologist propaganda.

The questions are never very or even mildly controversial. There may not be any censorship but there are plenty of planted and loaded questions. Any question an official does not like is not answered properly and the unwritten understanding is not to ask such questions. In that sense the questions are controlled

Regrettably there are many expats that are like school children sucking up to teacher when it comes to currying favor with the "hi so" thai groups

Go to a meeting and see for yourself. The email that started this thread off shows how this group thinks

I'm still a bit curious who sent the email. I am on the Chiang Mai Friends Group email list and I didn't get that email.

[venturalaw]

It's always problematic when facing challenges from those who have no personal experience in support of the position they aggressively defend. And, as in this case, instead of merely responding, they often become insulting. Those who have read my posts over the years know that I never espouse 'apologist propaganda', nor do I back away from a challenge.

I attend CMF meetings. I believe it is safe to say that those who are the primary attackers on this thread not only have never attended a meeting, but often participate in threads where they while away the hours spewing their uninformed rhetoric.

During the CMF monthly meetings, not the annual celebrations, guest speakers will take questions that are sometimes challenging, sometimes not. However, what has always taken place is that the speakers are available after the presentations to mingle with the attendees and answer questions one-on-one. Not being privy to questions that have been privately posed (unlike some who appear to be self-proclaimed experts on this thread) I do not know whether said questions are undemanding or confrontational.

[caf]

Not sure if Venuralaw has had his coffee yet.

With replies like that, Harry, perhaps he should start drinking coffee again if it helps him to post about reality rather than the usual thai apologist propaganda.

The questions are never very or even mildly controversial. There may not be any censorship but there are plenty of planted and loaded questions. Any question an official does not like is not answered properly and the unwritten understanding is not to ask such questions. In that sense the questions are controlled

Regrettably there are many expats that are like school children sucking up to teacher when it comes to currying favor with the "hi so" thai groups

Go to a meeting and see for yourself. The email that started this thread off shows how this group thinks

I'm still a bit curious who sent the email. I am on the Chiang Mai Friends Group email list and I didn't get that email.

The opening poster quoted it as coming from Chiangmai Friends and Sao Jiangmai confirmed she received one and was as perplexed as many posters. (Post 2 or 3 I think)

Edited January 20, 2011 by sbk
off topic attack removed

[Ulysses G.]

I attend CMF meetings. I believe it is safe to say that those who are the primary attackers on this thread not only have never attended a meeting, but often participate in threads where they while away the hours spewing their uninformed rhetoric.

That would be a pretty safe bet on Thai Visa.com!

[Nienke]

Go to a meeting and see for yourself. The email that started this thread off shows how this group thinks

If so, why the remark above? I don't get it, as it comes across, to me, as unkind.

Edited January 20, 2011 by sbk
personal details removed-

[MacWalen]

I am not sure if posting that extract was a good idea or not now. It was not my intention to make this thread into an attack on CMF, I just thought the email was funny. I never attended any of the CMF meetings but after reading this thread I will certainly attend when I am able to just to meet all those nice people including Khun Boong.

Hopefully this thread made CMF club more popular!

[richard10365]

I am not sure if posting that extract was a good idea or not now. It was not my intention to make this thread into an attack on CMF, I just thought the email was funny. I never attended any of the CMF meetings but after reading this thread I will certainly attend when I am able to just to meet all those nice people including Khun Boong.

Hopefully this thread made CMF club more popular!

Mac, I'm sure Khun Boong does not mind you expressing your opinion. She is a very easy person to get along with and I think she would say, "mai bpen rai". I think she would welcome you to the Chiang Mai Friends Group meetings and even give you an opportunity promote the Walen School of Thai to the groups members. After all, learning Thai is a skill that will help foreigners living in Chiang Mai to be more comfortable and at home here. That is one of the reasons for her group.

[sbk]

Well, unsurprisingly for Chiang Mai this thread is turning rancorous. Posts have been deleted. Lets drop the personal attacks and act like civil adults, thanks.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Do you suppose we have a shot at becoming the most rancorous local forum on the site? I don't think we'll ever eclipse the News Clippings forum, but beating Pattaya may be feasible.

And then, even with all the rancor around there is still an interesting vibe to the Chiang Mai forum; I think you agree; if it was all super terrible then you wouldn't visit here so often.

Edited January 20, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[caf]

I attend CMF meetings. I believe it is safe to say that those who are the primary attackers on this thread not only have never attended a meeting, but often participate in threads where they while away the hours spewing their uninformed rhetoric.

That would be a pretty safe bet on Thai Visa.com!

Then what are your views then Ulysses ? Have you been to meetings?

Have you read the original email?

I've not seen you there; so it seems it is you that is spewing uninformed rhetoric. Most of the comments are not attacking they are putting a point of view - to which everyone is entitled.

I thought the post was unacceptable, others have said it contained veiled threats and was unprofessional. Not my words - though I agree with them - but from people who are saying it from first hand experience

As I have said, I'm all for positive integration, sadly in my view we are not there yet. Only my view but others have made similar comments on the thread.

Do you have any views?

[Ulysses G.]

Weren't these kind of posts just deleted by admin?

[anselpixel]

Chiang Mai is a lovely place for a few months each year.

After giving it an honest shot for six months, I came away with the impression it is like any fair-sized provincial city in any country.

I'll come back to visit, but not to live, and I won't be joining any organizations. If I wanted to be in business, I wouldn't have retired, and I can honestly say not a single social encounter I had in Chiang Mai didn't involve aggressive marketing by both expats and locals.

As for the condescension and latent hostility toward outsiders, I'd have to agree those aren't imagined, and are big negatives.

[caf]

Do you suppose we have a shot at becoming the most rancorous local forum on the site? I don't think we'll ever eclipse the News Clippings forum, but beating Pattaya may be feasible.

And then, even with all the rancor around there is still an interesting vibe to the Chiang Mai forum; I think you agree; if it was all super terrible then you wouldn't visit here so often.

I won't comment

It's human nature for people to get bitter if they are exposed to facts and opinions that don't coincide with their own. I think it's called **** stirring

It's just that TV sometimes has it in spades - so yes, you may be right

[caf]

Weren't these kind of posts just deleted by admin?

Then what are your views then Ulysses ? Have you been to meetings?

Have you read the original email?

"I've not seen you there; so it seems it is you that is spewing uninformed rhetoric. YOUR WORDS NOT MINE Most of the comments are not attacking they are putting a point of view - to which everyone is entitled.

I thought the post was unacceptable, others have said it contained veiled threats and was unprofessional. Not my words - though I agree with them - but from people who are saying it from first hand experience

As I have said, I'm all for positive integration, sadly in my view we are not there yet. Only my view but others have made similar comments on the thread.

Do you have any views?

[Ulysses G.]

I have already given my opinion and your assumptions about what I know about this affair are incorrect. Please stop the taunts as we have already been warned.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Do you have any views?

Can you summarize what the topic is please.. I feel I should have an opinion, but I'm not sure I fully understand any of this. ( That's why I replied to SBK's post, because I understood it. )

[caf]

The last issue I recall with CMF was when they wanted to introduce a voluntary english teaching program and were adamant that the law regarding Work permits did not apply to them as they were good people. They were extremely critical of those who insisted that work permits were required in similar terms to those used now. It appears that those who have diferring views to events than the main organisers are imediately derided.

When I moved up to Chiangmai I was approached on this matter of voluntary teaching, but it was an associate that was giving the hard sell not CMF itself. I saw the red light and had nothing more to do with it. I still don't know why there was such a hard sell. From your post it seems I was not the only one.

[caf]

Chiang Mai is a lovely place for a few months each year.

After giving it an honest shot for six months, I came away with the impression it is like any fair-sized provincial city in any country.

I'll come back to visit, but not to live, and I won't be joining any organizations. If I wanted to be in business, I wouldn't have retired, and I can honestly say not a single social encounter I had in Chiang Mai didn't involve aggressive marketing by both expats and locals.

As for the condescension and latent hostility toward outsiders, I'd have to agree those aren't imagined, and are big negatives.

Very perceptive

It seems many who have been here longer can't see the wood for the trees and are in denial of the reality.

That does not mean that people do not like Thailand and can't or won't cope with the differences and frustrations we find here; it just means we should see things for what they are here and live accordingly.

There are more Thais than farang where I live so integrating is easier i suppose but it would be nice to have a club of sorts where expats can meet and integrate too. But clubs in Thailand seem to be businesses rather than what we in the west see as clubs.

[SwaziBird]

For those who have been detracted from what is good about the Chiang Mai Friends Group I am pleased to tell you that I have just returned from their GREAT 3rd anniversary celebration.

There was a very large attendance and everything went off very well - a tribute to the dedication of Khun Boong.

The event was used for the announcement of joint discussions between Khun Boong and the Hon. British Consul regarding the establishment of services to retired foreigners, living on their own and needing support, such as home visits etc.

This type of far sightedness makes one proud to be associated with Khun Boong, a remarkable lady leading an emerging great organisation.

Cheers.

Edited January 22, 2011 by SwaziBird

[venturalaw]

For those that have been detracted from what is good about the Chiang Mai Friends Group I am pleased to tell you that I have just returned from their GREAT 3rd anniversary celebration.

There was a very large attendance and everything went off very well - a tribute to the dedication of Khun Boong.

The venue was used for the announcement of joint discussions between Khun Boong and the Hon. British Consul regarding the establishment of services to retired foreigners, living on their own and needing support, such as home visits etc.

This type of far sightedness makes one proud to be associated with Khun Boong, a remarkable lady leading an emerging great organisation.

Cheers.

I agree completely. It was a spectacular event. The British, Peruvian, and U.S. Consulate Generals were present. There was an enormous amount of food including food from Miguels, pizzas, spaghetti, as well as numerous delectably prepared Thai dishes. Desserts included several different flavors of Tiramisu, Thai deserts, and a celebratory birthday cake. There was wine, fruit juices, live music, dancing and dance performances along with a fashion show. This evening was truly representative of what the Chiang Mai Friends Group epitomizes. Well done Khun Boong.

Edited January 22, 2011 by venturalaw

[wolf5370]

Chiang Mai is a lovely place for a few months each year.

After giving it an honest shot for six months, I came away with the impression it is like any fair-sized provincial city in any country.

I'll come back to visit, but not to live, and I won't be joining any organizations. If I wanted to be in business, I wouldn't have retired, and I can honestly say not a single social encounter I had in Chiang Mai didn't involve aggressive marketing by both expats and locals.

As for the condescension and latent hostility toward outsiders, I'd have to agree those aren't imagined, and are big negatives.

Where did you go? Before I lived here, I was coming and going for 15 years. I have been to a few social gatherings that were either charities or marketing, and had an element of hard sell, but no more than was expected given the event. Having attended many social events here, I can honestly say I don't think I haveever had anyone trying to hardsell me - other than the passing flower, peanut and garland sellers of course! As for being condescending and hostile to outsiders, I think CM is so diametrically opposed to that view it hard to be further from the truth! When I was just a visitor, I would turn up at a bar of cafe and within minutes be chatting with some expat, fellow tourist or whatever. I just made sure I went to expat bars and not girlie bars. Now I've lived here some years, I meet people in the same vein, and the same happens. If I try somewhere new, same, same. I think an average person would be hard put to find anywere more friendly than CM - especially the expat community. Having read this whole thread, you are the only one mentioning such things, yet you say "I [you] have to agree..." [sic] agree with whom?

As to the initial email - I take it just as someone getting a bit big for their boots and probably language issues made it more abrupt and seemingly rude than was intended. As Mac said, funny more than anything else. Glad it went well, and there were no major issues. May even pop along and take in a meeting to check it out for myself at some point - I tend to trust "mine own eyes" anyway - so, Mac putting this up may have some positive ramifications too if it encouranges a few of us to get off our fat tukasses and mossie on down for a shifty too.

PS: Is there a Peruvian consulate in CM? I never knew that!

Edited January 22, 2011 by wolf5370

[MacWalen]

I'm glad it went well, I was afraid I unintentionally crushed the party but hopefully it made the CMF club actually more popular.

[caf]

Chiang Mai is a lovely place for a few months each year.

After giving it an honest shot for six months, I came away with the impression it is like any fair-sized provincial city in any country.

I'll come back to visit, but not to live, and I won't be joining any organizations. If I wanted to be in business, I wouldn't have retired, and I can honestly say not a single social encounter I had in Chiang Mai didn't involve aggressive marketing by both expats and locals.

As for the condescension and latent hostility toward outsiders, I'd have to agree those aren't imagined, and are big negatives.

Where did you go? Before I lived here, I was coming and going for 15 years. I have been to a few social gatherings that were either charities or marketing, and had an element of hard sell, but no more than was expected given the event. Having attended many social events here, I can honestly say I don't think I haveever had anyone trying to hardsell me - other than the passing flower, peanut and garland sellers of course! As for being condescending and hostile to outsiders, I think CM is so diametrically opposed to that view it hard to be further from the truth! When I was just a visitor, I would turn up at a bar of cafe and within minutes be chatting with some expat, fellow tourist or whatever. I just made sure I went to expat bars and not girlie bars. Now I've lived here some years, I meet people in the same vein, and the same happens. If I try somewhere new, same, same. I think an average person would be hard put to find anywere more friendly than CM - especially the expat community. Having read this whole thread, you are the only one mentioning such things, yet you say "I [you] have to agree..." [sic] agree with whom?

As to the initial email - I take it just as someone getting a bit big for their boots and probably language issues made it more abrupt and seemingly rude than was intended. As Mac said, funny more than anything else. Glad it went well, and there were no major issues. May even pop along and take in a meeting to check it out for myself at some point - I tend to trust "mine own eyes" anyway - so, Mac putting this up may have some positive ramifications too if it encouranges a few of us to get off our fat tukasses and mossie on down for a shifty too.

PS: Is there a Peruvian consulate in CM? I never knew that!

"As to the initial email - I take it just as someone getting a bit big for their boots and probably language issues * made it more abrupt and seemingly rude"

(* apparently an English speaker, certainly no language mistakes in the email and it showed some command of language.)

You've hit the nail on the head. The thread's posters were divided between those who took exception to the patronising and threatening tone of whoever wrote that circulated email and those who ignored the rudeness issue completely and tried to act as if nothing had been done wrongly.

I imagine Boong was unaware of that email but if an apology had been issued the matter would have ended and the attempts of the original email to incite expats living here, suggesting some should leave by the nearest airport, for example, would have been avoided.

The concept of Friends is a good one. I am sure Boong wants to improve integration and friendship, the email seemed intent on doing the opposite. I imagine too that lessons have been learned and that should ultimately strengthen the Friends concept.

TV always has a problem with posters who won't see other people's points of view. The commercially oriented aspects of everything in Thai life is one example where people hold different views. No problem there, I just prefer the western concept of helping others to integrate without the "what is in it for me" attitude

The thread got bitter at one point because of this lack of respect for others' views, ironic really when the whole topic is about friendship. One poster's response was significantly modified by the powers that be

[venturalaw]

Chiang Mai is a lovely place for a few months each year.

After giving it an honest shot for six months, I came away with the impression it is like any fair-sized provincial city in any country.

I'll come back to visit, but not to live, and I won't be joining any organizations. If I wanted to be in business, I wouldn't have retired, and I can honestly say not a single social encounter I had in Chiang Mai didn't involve aggressive marketing by both expats and locals.

As for the condescension and latent hostility toward outsiders, I'd have to agree those aren't imagined, and are big negatives.

Where did you go? Before I lived here, I was coming and going for 15 years. I have been to a few social gatherings that were either charities or marketing, and had an element of hard sell, but no more than was expected given the event. Having attended many social events here, I can honestly say I don't think I haveever had anyone trying to hardsell me - other than the passing flower, peanut and garland sellers of course! As for being condescending and hostile to outsiders, I think CM is so diametrically opposed to that view it hard to be further from the truth! When I was just a visitor, I would turn up at a bar of cafe and within minutes be chatting with some expat, fellow tourist or whatever. I just made sure I went to expat bars and not girlie bars. Now I've lived here some years, I meet people in the same vein, and the same happens. If I try somewhere new, same, same. I think an average person would be hard put to find anywere more friendly than CM - especially the expat community. Having read this whole thread, you are the only one mentioning such things, yet you say "I [you] have to agree..." [sic] agree with whom?

As to the initial email - I take it just as someone getting a bit big for their boots and probably language issues made it more abrupt and seemingly rude than was intended. As Mac said, funny more than anything else. Glad it went well, and there were no major issues. May even pop along and take in a meeting to check it out for myself at some point - I tend to trust "mine own eyes" anyway - so, Mac putting this up may have some positive ramifications too if it encouranges a few of us to get off our fat tukasses and mossie on down for a shifty too.

PS: Is there a Peruvian consulate in CM? I never knew that!

The Peruvian consulate - http://www.smiletravelvietnam.com/peru-consulate-in-chiang-mai

The subject e-mail was created by one who was seeking to defend CMF against a very few non-members who were making unreasonable demands of the leadership. The wording was unfortunate and therefore responded to by Khun Boong. That would have been the end of it but, unfortunately, one uninvolved poster decided to make an issue out of it by condemning the group as a whole in a most demeaning manner, alleging that it was merely 'opinion' :

Regrettably there are many expats that are like school children sucking up to teacher when it comes to currying favor with the "hi so" thai groups

Go to a meeting and see for yourself. The email that started this thread off shows how this group thinks

Edited January 23, 2011 by venturalaw

[CMX]

I have not attended any meetings and prior to this thread was unaware of the group's existence. I shall inquire further.

The first letter was unfortunate. In diplomatic terms, that means bad for everyone. There have been offered a number of excuses but, at the least, we should agree that a great deal was lost in translation, culturally, no doubt, and linguistically certainly.

Among things lost was the focus on the occasion, mentioned several times since. This was not to be a "business meeting," but a fun celebration. Within the group itself, that would probably have been understood without saying.

Except, as Khun Boong tells us, we expats are sometimes boorish (shock! surprise! - as if we didn't know. I'm not, of course, but know one when I hear one.) Collaring an official at a party in order to ride my favorite hobby horse is impolite on any occasion - this is not a business meeting where such business is conducted. In fact, the questions mentioned by Khun Boong are illuminating as much as they are hilarious - that anyone would bother someone in office with such queries - but we do! Right then and there because it is convenient and does not involve appointments or any bother. And we are fascinated by ourselves when we do it {don't ask me how I know}. I mean, we posting on Thai Visa are not always models of sensitivity, let alone decorum.

Most defenders keep referring to the objectives and hopes of the organization. I have no notion of their successes, but if I had received that message without this thread for clarification, I would have discarded it angrily and avoided what I would have thought a bad ill run outfit forever, throwing, as we say, the baby out with the bathwater. Not now - thanks, all.

Edited January 23, 2011 by CMX