Formula 1 In 2011

[wackysleet]

Because Di Resta HAD been penalised for trying an impossible move, so anyone else making the same stupid move had to be penalised too.

True, but I remember Schumacher got away with similar for years so it's not surprising that today's drivers feel aggrieved about not being allowed to overtake without being penalised.

Whether times are actually changing is not really the point, dangerous manouvres in an attempt to overtake are just not on and yes Michael pulled more than his share of dodgy things in the past but there are not many drivers taking part that were driving that long ago and even fewer that resorted to those antics and if anyone thinks that swerving in an attempt to stop another driver passing is acceptable then I would disagree, do we want to see more of Damiens contact or jacks coming together with the same driver in the name of excitement, I don't think so.

There is nothing in the rules to prevent any driver from overtaking except in the manner it's attempted but Lewis made a statement last week that he had spent his life in the headmasters study,I wonder why, Jenson overtook a fair amount of racers at the weekend and nothing was found to be wrong with his driving, even Fernando did not pass comment so obviously accepted it as a racing incident. There is of course a big difference between a clear chance of overtaking or "get out of my way i'm coming through because I am an important person" attitude.

Edited June 14, 2011 by wackysleet

[Mosha]

H'mm did he learn to drive in Thailand?

[wackysleet]

H'mm did he learn to drive in Thailand?

That's one of your better ones Steve :lol: .

[Mosha]

I try, in fact she says I'm very trying

[rixalex]

Great race. As with most on off wet dry races, it had plenty of excitement.

As far as the "incident being investigated" thing is concerned, i think it's just got to a ridiculous point whereby any contact between cars is scrutinized and blame looking to be apportioned. At the end of the day, this is racing and what we want to see is risks being taken, not mirror, signal, manoeuvre.

Mistakes will be made of course when the line between successfully making a move and unsuccessfully not making it is so fine. Pretty much all the top drivers in Canada made a mistake at some point in the race, including Webber, Vettel, Button and Lewis, but none of them were malicious. None of them were deliberately trying to take anyone out. Were they dangerous? Perhaps, but come on, this is F1. Danger is part and parcel with what the sport is about. Over-officiating will dilute it down and ultimately bring us to a point where no one dares to try and pull off the audacious. Everyone will simply play the percentages game. Maybe that's what some F1 fans want, i don't know. Not for me.

I like seeing drivers being bold. I like them taking some risks. I like them being brave. I like the driver that will attempt a move around the outside. It's what makes the sport what it is, for me. There's one thing i don't like, and that's cheating, and that's what the officials should concentrate their efforts on. Let the drivers go racing and stop unnecessary interference.

[rixalex]

There is nothing in the rules to prevent any driver from overtaking except in the manner it's attempted but Lewis made a statement last week that he had spent his life in the headmasters study,I wonder why, Jenson overtook a fair amount of racers at the weekend and nothing was found to be wrong with his driving, even Fernando did not pass comment so obviously accepted it as a racing incident. There is of course a big difference between a clear chance of overtaking or "get out of my way i'm coming through because I am an important person" attitude.

As far as the Button Alonso incident is concerned, i do think that Button was probably more to blame than Alonso, but just because one is to blame more than the other, doesn't stop it from being a racing accident. No different in that respect to the Button Hamilton coming together. One was probably more to blame than the other, but who, i'm not sure. Some say that Button had checked his mirrors twice before moving to the left, and as he had made a mistake the corner before and was struggling for grip out of the corner, knew that Lewis was going to have a run at him but still moved into his path. Others say Lewis went for a gap that wasn't there. As far as the drivers are concerned, they both seem amicable about it once they had calmed down and accepted that noone in particular was to blame. Just one of those things.

[wackysleet]

There is nothing in the rules to prevent any driver from overtaking except in the manner it's attempted but Lewis made a statement last week that he had spent his life in the headmasters study,I wonder why, Jenson overtook a fair amount of racers at the weekend and nothing was found to be wrong with his driving, even Fernando did not pass comment so obviously accepted it as a racing incident. There is of course a big difference between a clear chance of overtaking or "get out of my way i'm coming through because I am an important person" attitude.

As far as the Button Alonso incident is concerned, i do think that Button was probably more to blame than Alonso, but just because one is to blame more than the other, doesn't stop it from being a racing accident. No different in that respect to the Button Hamilton coming together. One was probably more to blame than the other, but who, i'm not sure. Some say that Button had checked his mirrors twice before moving to the left, and as he had made a mistake the corner before and was struggling for grip out of the corner, knew that Lewis was going to have a run at him but still moved into his path. Others say Lewis went for a gap that wasn't there. As far as the drivers are concerned, they both seem amicable about it once they had calmed down and accepted that noone in particular was to blame. Just one of those things.

Rix.There are numerous points you raise which I am in agreement with but in your previous post you commented on audaciousness in attempting an overtaking move from a driver and I think you are primarily referring to Lewis, although we know several others made moves that could have been suspect and then stated that other drivers played the percentages in trying to overtake but surely any driver will look at his chances of making the move stick without endangering the life of his fellow racer and I would have thought that if the % was not in his favour then he may think twice.

The bad publicity that has been forthcoming in recent races and again Lewis name is in the frame could be his attempts at an audacious passing move was against the percentages of him pulling it off, that seems to me to be his attitude of expecting drivers to concede and as you have stated at the begining of this season, everyone is there to race and no one has to move over to concede his position unless he is being lapped.

The stewards look at the positions of the cars in relation to the line that they had been adopting on previous laps along with everything else that will assess whether a driver moved across from the posion he had been using on previous laps, no driver should deviate from his racing line and put himself and his car in danger just to make room for a faster driver coming up behind, that is where the racing comes into it. Slower cars on the same lap moving over is what helps to create a procession.

[rixalex]

Rix.There are numerous points you raise which I am in agreement with but in your previous post you commented on audaciousness in attempting an overtaking move from a driver and I think you are primarily referring to Lewis, although we know several others made moves that could have been suspect and then stated that other drivers played the percentages in trying to overtake but surely any driver will look at his chances of making the move stick without endangering the life of his fellow racer and I would have thought that if the % was not in his favour then he may think twice.

The bad publicity that has been forthcoming in recent races and again Lewis name is in the frame could be his attempts at an audacious passing move was against the percentages of him pulling it off, that seems to me to be his attitude of expecting drivers to concede and as you have stated at the begining of this season, everyone is there to race and no one has to move over to concede his position unless he is being lapped.

The stewards look at the positions of the cars in relation to the line that they had been adopting on previous laps along with everything else that will assess whether a driver moved across from the posion he had been using on previous laps, no driver should deviate from his racing line and put himself and his car in danger just to make room for a faster driver coming up behind, that is where the racing comes into it. Slower cars on the same lap moving over is what helps to create a procession.

Take on board all you say wacky.

For me a crucial aspect of the over-taking move is getting to within half a car's length of the front of the car to be passed, and if you achieve this you have a right to claim the bit of track you are on as your line, but obviously this still requires co-operation from the other driver in not simply turning into you. Doesn't necessarily have to be about arrogantly thinking it your right to pass, but about basic racing etiquette, professionalism and respect for other drivers. If someone gets along side you and you decide you want the bit of track they are on, perhaps you should have moved onto that line earlier, don't you think?

If however you are further back than i described, even if just by a foot, well then, you should be ready to concede track position if the driver in front turns in, and if you don't, well then perhaps in some cases - especially those where you take the other car out - steward's punishment is justified here. I think it was in Monaco when Lewis shunted Maldonado out by coming from too far behind into the corner.

In Canada Lewis likewise wasn't far enough alongside Button to claim the track as his, but he really didn't have time to back off and had no track left to move into, and i think the fact that Button went on unscathed should mean it just gets put down to a racing accident. That seems to be how both drivers have taken it, and indeed judging from the lack of action from the stewards, how they saw it too.

[wackysleet]

Rix.There are numerous points you raise which I am in agreement with but in your previous post you commented on audaciousness in attempting an overtaking move from a driver and I think you are primarily referring to Lewis, although we know several others made moves that could have been suspect and then stated that other drivers played the percentages in trying to overtake but surely any driver will look at his chances of making the move stick without endangering the life of his fellow racer and I would have thought that if the % was not in his favour then he may think twice.

The bad publicity that has been forthcoming in recent races and again Lewis name is in the frame could be his attempts at an audacious passing move was against the percentages of him pulling it off, that seems to me to be his attitude of expecting drivers to concede and as you have stated at the begining of this season, everyone is there to race and no one has to move over to concede his position unless he is being lapped.

The stewards look at the positions of the cars in relation to the line that they had been adopting on previous laps along with everything else that will assess whether a driver moved across from the posion he had been using on previous laps, no driver should deviate from his racing line and put himself and his car in danger just to make room for a faster driver coming up behind, that is where the racing comes into it. Slower cars on the same lap moving over is what helps to create a procession.

Take on board all you say wacky.

For me a crucial aspect of the over-taking move is getting to within half a car's length of the front of the car to be passed, and if you achieve this you have a right to claim the bit of track you are on as your line, but obviously this still requires co-operation from the other driver in not simply turning into you. Doesn't necessarily have to be about arrogantly thinking it your right to pass, but about basic racing etiquette, professionalism and respect for other drivers. If someone gets along side you and you decide you want the bit of track they are on, perhaps you should have moved onto that line earlier, don't you think?

If however you are further back than i described, even if just by a foot, well then, you should be ready to concede track position if the driver in front turns in, and if you don't, well then perhaps in some cases - especially those where you take the other car out - steward's punishment is justified here. I think it was in Monaco when Lewis shunted Maldonado out by coming from too far behind into the corner.

In Canada Lewis likewise wasn't far enough alongside Button to claim the track as his, but he really didn't have time to back off and had no track left to move into, and i think the fact that Button went on unscathed should mean it just gets put down to a racing accident. That seems to be how both drivers have taken it, and indeed judging from the lack of action from the stewards, how they saw it too.

Then as often is the case we are in agreement mate :jap:

[Mosha]

Now we have Bernie slaming LH's critics

[rixalex]

Now we have Bernie slaming LH's critics

Support from a fairly unexpected quarter i would say, although i guess Lewis brings in the viewers which brings in the money...

Still, i happen to agree with what he's saying:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/ecclestone-people-are-wrong-to-attack-lewis-hamilton-2297880.html

[wackysleet]

Now we have Bernie slaming LH's critics

Controversy brings publicity which generates interest which, you guessed it, generates even more money, as an aside it looks as though there could be as many as 25 races a season in the near future if the poisoned dwarf has his way but FOTA may well go along with it or at least a couple more.

[Mosha]

Can we have a European race in February please?

[PattayaParent]

Because Di Resta HAD been penalised for trying an impossible move, so anyone else making the same stupid move had to be penalised too.

True, but I remember Schumacher got away with similar for years so it's not surprising that today's drivers feel aggrieved about not being allowed to overtake without being penalised.

And then again Senna etc. in the era that Schumi joined, did the same thing without any come-back...

Schumi learned after the Villeneuve championship decider in 1997 (I think?) that the old behaviour was no longer acceptable.

I will be the first to admit that Schumi still behaved badly if he thought he could get away with it (back in the old days) - but times have changed and trying to 'force' someone else out of the way is no longer acceptable. Its only the ridiculous attempts at overtaking nowadays that are penalised.

And one of the things that has changed is that Schumacher no longer has a competitive car in which to be able to be in a position to force someone out of the way.

[wackysleet]

I think that times have changed in certain aspects of what is now acceptable as opposed to what was acceptable in Michaels days prior to him retiring.

He was a massive pull in racing, the undisputed number 1 with no other driver with such a high profile, who would want to bite the hand that was feeding them through his popularity thus the increased viewing audience of those that loved him and those that hated him {I'm of the latter persuasion}.

In todays field there are more characters getting and generating lot's of publicity, Sebastian, Lewis, Jenson, Mark and even Michael to name a few so the powers to be can no longer turn a blind eye to certain aspects of driving that Michael was allowed to get away with because of his audience pulling power.

Edited June 17, 2011 by wackysleet

[F1fanatic]

Now we have Bernie slaming LH's critics

Support from a fairly unexpected quarter i would say, although i guess Lewis brings in the viewers which brings in the money...

Still, i happen to agree with what he's saying:

http://www.independe...on-2297880.html

Bernie only cares about money, which is why I find his comments entirely expected...

[F1fanatic]

Because Di Resta HAD been penalised for trying an impossible move, so anyone else making the same stupid move had to be penalised too.

True, but I remember Schumacher got away with similar for years so it's not surprising that today's drivers feel aggrieved about not being allowed to overtake without being penalised.

And then again Senna etc. in the era that Schumi joined, did the same thing without any come-back...

Schumi learned after the Villeneuve championship decider in 1997 (I think?) that the old behaviour was no longer acceptable.

I will be the first to admit that Schumi still behaved badly if he thought he could get away with it (back in the old days) - but times have changed and trying to 'force' someone else out of the way is no longer acceptable. Its only the ridiculous attempts at overtaking nowadays that are penalised.

And one of the things that has changed is that Schumacher no longer has a competitive car in which to be able to be in a position to force someone out of the way.

You don't necessarily need a competitive car - just a willingness to brake late and put yourself in a position where if the other driver doesn't get out of your way - there will be contact.

If memory serves correctly, Lewis pulled one of these stunts on Massa last season and, after the race (the other driver was not happy), said that it was their fault for not having the 'balls' - or words to that effect.

These words have come back to haunt him as many other drivers are no longer prepared to be forced out of the way when they have the 'racing line' - hence LH's many penalties and calls to the stewards office...

Edit - the reason why Lewis is getting so much flack is because he DOES have a competitive car - and should wait for a realistic overtaking opportunity.

Edited June 18, 2011 by F1fanatic

[F1fanatic]

I think that times have changed in certain aspects of what is now acceptable as opposed to what was acceptable in Michaels days prior to him retiring.

He was a massive pull in racing, the undisputed number 1 with no other driver with such a high profile, who would want to bite the hand that was feeding them through his popularity thus the increased viewing audience of those that loved him and those that hated him {I'm of the latter persuasion}.

In todays field there are more characters getting and generating lot's of publicity, Sebastian, Lewis, Jenson, Mark and even Michael to name a few so the powers to be can no longer turn a blind eye to certain aspects of driving that Michael was allowed to get away with because of his audience pulling power.

My recollection of the 2000-2006 seasons is that the authorities certainly did not turn a 'blind eye'!

Rules were changed to make Ferrari less competitive (understandably - they were too dominant) and Schumi was penalised at least as much as any of the other drivers.

[rixalex]

Now we have Bernie slaming LH's critics

Support from a fairly unexpected quarter i would say, although i guess Lewis brings in the viewers which brings in the money...

Still, i happen to agree with what he's saying:

http://www.independe...on-2297880.html

Bernie only cares about money, which is why I find his comments entirely expected...

I see. And you disagree with his comments?

[F1fanatic]

Now we have Bernie slaming LH's critics

Support from a fairly unexpected quarter i would say, although i guess Lewis brings in the viewers which brings in the money...

Still, i happen to agree with what he's saying:

http://www.independe...on-2297880.html

Bernie only cares about money, which is why I find his comments entirely expected...

I see. And you disagree with his comments?

Yes, for the reasons I've explained above.

[rixalex]

Yes, for the reasons I've explained above.

Have to say, i find the whole concept of a die-hard Schumacher fan taking a stand against bold and aggressive over-taking - a Schumi trade-mark - a little hard to get my head around.

[F1fanatic]

Yes, for the reasons I've explained above.

Have to say, i find the whole concept of a die-hard Schumacher fan taking a stand against bold and aggressive over-taking - a Schumi trade-mark - a little hard to get my head around.

Know what you mean! I was forced to think about this myself as Schumi was certainly not retiring in his 'Glory Days'..

Having thought about it.... I think there are two differences:-

1) Schumi had the intelligence to be nice to those in cars that were bound to be lapped (which meant they would get out of his way more quickly) and,

2) more importantly - Schumi rarely tried 'banzai' moves when points were important....

Lewis needs to learn this lesson.....

Just thought of another difference - Schumi proved precisely why he was the undisputed number one, even when in an inferior car. Consequently, I agree that most other drivers were intimidated. A few weren't - Montoya springs to mind , who quickly left F1 for another Series.....

Unfortunately for Lewis, he hasn't 'proven his credentials' in a poor car and other drivers just dislike him.....

Edited June 18, 2011 by F1fanatic

[wackysleet]

I think that times have changed in certain aspects of what is now acceptable as opposed to what was acceptable in Michaels days prior to him retiring.

He was a massive pull in racing, the undisputed number 1 with no other driver with such a high profile, who would want to bite the hand that was feeding them through his popularity thus the increased viewing audience of those that loved him and those that hated him {I'm of the latter persuasion}.

In todays field there are more characters getting and generating lot's of publicity, Sebastian, Lewis, Jenson, Mark and even Michael to name a few so the powers to be can no longer turn a blind eye to certain aspects of driving that Michael was allowed to get away with because of his audience pulling power.

My recollection of the 2000-2006 seasons is that the authorities certainly did not turn a 'blind eye'!

Rules were changed to make Ferrari less competitive (understandably - they were too dominant) and Schumi was penalised at least as much as any of the other drivers.

Try thinking about prior to the times you became a fan of Michaels, remind me please of the extensive punishments he received after taking Damian out and not having learnt his lesson he then proceeded to take jack out,hmmmm possibly an attempted murder charge Mr. Shumacher, no your honour he was just in my way, not only did he effectively get away with both incidences he then got away with parking his car on the chicane/bend, when any of punishments should have meant a ban for a period and after what he did to Jack he should have had his licence revoked, reality is that he is and was the biggest cheat in Formula 1 ever and no amount of sugar coating will change that fact.

We can now come onto Lewis and I will say now that I have an intense dislike of the <deleted> bordering on hatred, but, he does not cheat, granted one may well question his ongoing mental state and frustration is part and parcel of that mindset but the difference between him and Michael is Mr. Shumacher will and still does do whatever he deems fit whereas Lewis has been showing a lot of immaturity in recent races, no actually most of this season, stupid as that is, he does not cheat, bully boy yes.

Edited June 18, 2011 by wackysleet

[rixalex]

1) Schumi had the intelligence to be nice to those in cars that were bound to be lapped (which meant they would get out of his way more quickly) and,

In what way was he "nice"?

2) more importantly - Schumi rarely tried 'banzai' moves when points were important....

If drivers hadn't capitulated and moved out of his way, many of his moves might well have proven "banzai".

Unfortunately for Lewis, he hasn't 'proven his credentials' in a poor car and other drivers just dislike him.....

When a driver is driving a really crap car, there is a limit to how well they are going to do, no matter who they are - Schumacher or anybody else. I don't think Schumi ever did drive a truly crap car. An average one, briefly, perhaps. The best a driver can hope for, with a crap car, is to beat their team mate. Lewis has done this consistently.

[F1fanatic]

I think that times have changed in certain aspects of what is now acceptable as opposed to what was acceptable in Michaels days prior to him retiring.

He was a massive pull in racing, the undisputed number 1 with no other driver with such a high profile, who would want to bite the hand that was feeding them through his popularity thus the increased viewing audience of those that loved him and those that hated him {I'm of the latter persuasion}.

In todays field there are more characters getting and generating lot's of publicity, Sebastian, Lewis, Jenson, Mark and even Michael to name a few so the powers to be can no longer turn a blind eye to certain aspects of driving that Michael was allowed to get away with because of his audience pulling power.

My recollection of the 2000-2006 seasons is that the authorities certainly did not turn a 'blind eye'!

Rules were changed to make Ferrari less competitive (understandably - they were too dominant) and Schumi was penalised at least as much as any of the other drivers.

Try thinking about prior to the times you became a fan of Michaels, remind me please of the extensive punishments he received after taking Damian out and not having learnt his lesson he then proceeded to take jack out,hmmmm possibly an attempted murder charge Mr. Shumacher, no your honour he was just in my way, not only did he effectively get away with both incidences he then got away with parking his car on the chicane/bend, when any of punishments should have meant a ban for a period and after what he did to Jack he should have had his licence revoked, reality is that he is and was the biggest cheat in Formula 1 ever and no amount of sugar coating will change that fact.

We can now come onto Lewis and I will say now that I have an intense dislike of the <deleted> bordering on hatred, but, he does not cheat, granted one may well question his ongoing mental state and frustration is part and parcel of that mindset but the difference between him and Michael is Mr. Shumacher will and still does do whatever he deems fit whereas Lewis has been showing a lot of immaturity in recent races, no actually most of this season, stupid as that is, he does not cheat, bully boy yes.

I did state that I was talking about the 2000-2006 seasons.

The 'parking' on the Monaco chicane resulted in a penalty that left him at the back of the grid - even though he was fighting for the championship at the time and, only just beginning to come back from a dominant Renault season.

If you think Lewis doesn't 'cheat', think back to the 2007 season when the whole 'Lewis/Fernando' dispute errupted - Lewis 'took' an advantage when it should have been Fernando's turn.

Not to mention 'Liargate'.....

[F1fanatic]

1) Schumi had the intelligence to be nice to those in cars that were bound to be lapped (which meant they would get out of his way more quickly) and,

In what way was he "nice"?

2) more importantly - Schumi rarely tried 'banzai' moves when points were important....

If drivers hadn't capitulated and moved out of his way, many of his moves might well have proven "banzai".

Unfortunately for Lewis, he hasn't 'proven his credentials' in a poor car and other drivers just dislike him.....

When a driver is driving a really crap car, there is a limit to how well they are going to do, no matter who they are - Schumacher or anybody else. I don't think Schumi ever did drive a truly crap car. An average one, briefly, perhaps. The best a driver can hope for, with a crap car, is to beat their team mate. Lewis has done this consistently.

I'm sad enough to follow the F1 'gossip' , and during Schumi's 'glory years' he was intelligent enough to be nice to the 'backmarkers' (off-track) - whereas Lewis called them 'monkeys', NOT a good way to make friends!

When Schumi joined Ferrari, the car was crap and it took a few years before he gained another WDC. Even so, he didn't complain about the team etc. and just got on with the job, consistently getting close to the WDC in an inferior car.

I agree that when a car is crap, the driver is in trouble - as Lewis proved when the McLaren was rubbish. I accept this, but have a problem when the driver is convinced its all down to their superior driving when the car improves to the top level....

Few people think Jenson is a 'top' driver - but Lewis is making Jenson look a lot better.

Edited June 18, 2011 by F1fanatic

[wackysleet]

I think that times have changed in certain aspects of what is now acceptable as opposed to what was acceptable in Michaels days prior to him retiring.

He was a massive pull in racing, the undisputed number 1 with no other driver with such a high profile, who would want to bite the hand that was feeding them through his popularity thus the increased viewing audience of those that loved him and those that hated him {I'm of the latter persuasion}.

In todays field there are more characters getting and generating lot's of publicity, Sebastian, Lewis, Jenson, Mark and even Michael to name a few so the powers to be can no longer turn a blind eye to certain aspects of driving that Michael was allowed to get away with because of his audience pulling power.

My recollection of the 2000-2006 seasons is that the authorities certainly did not turn a 'blind eye'!

Rules were changed to make Ferrari less competitive (understandably - they were too dominant) and Schumi was penalised at least as much as any of the other drivers.

Try thinking about prior to the times you became a fan of Michaels, remind me please of the extensive punishments he received after taking Damian out and not having learnt his lesson he then proceeded to take jack out,hmmmm possibly an attempted murder charge Mr. Shumacher, no your honour he was just in my way, not only did he effectively get away with both incidences he then got away with parking his car on the chicane/bend, when any of punishments should have meant a ban for a period and after what he did to Jack he should have had his licence revoked, reality is that he is and was the biggest cheat in Formula 1 ever and no amount of sugar coating will change that fact.

We can now come onto Lewis and I will say now that I have an intense dislike of the <deleted> bordering on hatred, but, he does not cheat, granted one may well question his ongoing mental state and frustration is part and parcel of that mindset but the difference between him and Michael is Mr. Shumacher will and still does do whatever he deems fit whereas Lewis has been showing a lot of immaturity in recent races, no actually most of this season, stupid as that is, he does not cheat, bully boy yes.

I did state that I was talking about the 2000-2006 seasons.

The 'parking' on the Monaco chicane resulted in a penalty that left him at the back of the grid - even though he was fighting for the championship at the time and, only just beginning to come back from a dominant Renault season.

If you think Lewis doesn't 'cheat', think back to the 2007 season when the whole 'Lewis/Fernando' dispute errupted - Lewis 'took' an advantage when it should have been Fernando's turn.

Not to mention 'Liargate'.....

I think that there is a big difference between Lewis going out of turn, which by the way actually had nothing to do with cheating on the track and just endorses my belief that he's always acted like a spoilt brat.

Liargate, ah yes let's assess that statement. Most people with the kind of overblown opinion of themself as Lewis has, would/could never admit they were at fault, totally inconceivable to them, proof that Lewis still believes that mantra as recent evidence in the fricking idiots statement shows and whilst I readily accept your submission that it is cheating {will give you the benefit of the doubt on that} he does not, but the relevant difference is that Michael does/did things deliberately.

Actually I cannot believe i'm defending the <deleted> but then I think Michael is a cheating <deleted> and has no place in F1.:jap:

[rixalex]

Try thinking about prior to the times you became a fan of Michaels, remind me please of the extensive punishments he received after taking Damian out and not having learnt his lesson he then proceeded to take jack out,hmmmm possibly an attempted murder charge Mr. Shumacher, no your honour he was just in my way, not only did he effectively get away with both incidences he then got away with parking his car on the chicane/bend, when any of punishments should have meant a ban for a period and after what he did to Jack he should have had his licence revoked, reality is that he is and was the biggest cheat in Formula 1 ever and no amount of sugar coating will change that fact.

We can now come onto Lewis and I will say now that I have an intense dislike of the <deleted> bordering on hatred, but, he does not cheat, granted one may well question his ongoing mental state and frustration is part and parcel of that mindset but the difference between him and Michael is Mr. Shumacher will and still does do whatever he deems fit whereas Lewis has been showing a lot of immaturity in recent races, no actually most of this season, stupid as that is, he does not cheat, bully boy yes.

As a Lewis fan, agreeing with a post that includes describing him as an "<deleted>" doesn't come easy, but it's hard not to, as it makes a lot of sense.... <deleted> comment aside...

[rixalex]

I'm sad enough to follow the F1 'gossip' , and during Schumi's 'glory years' he was intelligent enough to be nice to the 'backmarkers' (off-track)

I asked in what way he was "nice", and i can't really see how you have answered that.

[rixalex]

whereas Lewis called them 'monkeys', NOT a good way to make friends!

Stupid comment, made in jest, inappropriate, and apologised for. Trotted out now on every Lewis discussion.

When Schumi joined Ferrari, the car was crap and it took a few years before he gained another WDC. Even so, he didn't complain about the team etc. and just got on with the job, consistently getting close to the WDC in an inferior car.

Matter of opinion, but my feeling is the car was average, not crap, and with the team of engineers and experts he brought with him, rapidly became a good and then a fantastic car. Credit to him for that, by the way.

I accept this, but have a problem when the driver is convinced its all down to their superior driving when the car improves to the top level....

A racing driver who thinks he is the best and who has an ego. It's hardly a revelation now, is it?