Samsara - What It Means

[camerata]

Samsara – what it means

With the recent presence of Mahayana teachers in Bangkok – it is timely to consider some of the doctrinal differences between the lineages of Buddhism. Remember though, that it is not a competition, and we can all find much common ground.

One question is about ‘Samsara’. Later schools took Samsara to mean a place. The layers of heaven, hell and earth – which is accurate enough. But then ‘nirvana’ becomes something ‘other’ or ‘outside’ – another layer of heaven that is higher than Samsara. This interpretation was wrongly levelled by the Mahayana schools at the Theravada (hinayana) though a basic misunderstanding of what Samsara actually meant.

Hence the Mahayana schools began to teach that ‘nirvana’ is in ‘samsara’. Actually both terms can be understood properly according to the Pali Suttas, which are the closest to the original teachings of the Buddha that we have. Then there is no confusing of these two terms with physical realms.

Full article.

[fabianfred]

My teacher Supawan Green likens Samsara to a huge prison with many levels (31) ...the different realms we can take rebirth in. We are reborn up and down and back and forth according to our karma. We must all have been to every realm, every kind of heaven and hell and animal, still making the same mistakes and

The trouble is that we have been stuck in this prison since beginning-less time and only get to know that we are in a prison when a Buddha comes and points it out. Then he tells us that there is a way to escape and the path to take........down in the far corner of the human realm level is a hidden door and once through that (stream-entry) there are three more doors along the corridor and the last one opens to the outside (Arahant). One has then escaped the prison and there is no going back once one has entered the corridor.

[rockyysdt]

My teacher Supawan Green likens Samsara to a huge prison with many levels (31) ...the different realms we can take rebirth in. We are reborn up and down and back and forth according to our karma. We must all have been to every realm, every kind of heaven and hell and animal, still making the same mistakes and

The trouble is that we have been stuck in this prison since beginning-less time and only get to know that we are in a prison when a Buddha comes and points it out.

Are there three ways one can know this?

Either the Buddha taught this, one has actual experience of this, or one learns from one who has become enlightened.

Then he tells us that there is a way to escape and the path to take........down in the far corner of the human realm level is a hidden door and once through that (stream-entry) there are three more doors along the corridor and the last one opens to the outside (Arahant). One has then escaped the prison and there is no going back once one has entered the corridor.

Is the human realm the only one with the hidden door to stream entry?

If you get through this door, will you know this has happened after re birth?

What does it mean to be Arahant, as I thought at some point one simply becomes enlightened and continues in this state until death, at which point one escapes to Nirvana (cessation of re birth & suffering).

And further, some escape to Nirvana permanently, whilst others are destined to return to teach the way.

Are there more in Nirvana than in Samsara?

Could Nirvana be non existence?

Non existence is also permanent and unconditioned.

Non existence would also be peaceful as suffering would not exist.

[rockyysdt]

Hence the Mahayana schools began to teach that 'nirvana' is in 'samsara'. Actually both terms can be understood properly according to the Pali Suttas, which are the closest to the original teachings of the Buddha that we have. Then there is no confusing of these two terms with physical realms.

Does this explain why some believe Nirvana to be a state rather than a place?

I recall it being expressed that we are already enlightened but just aren't aware of it.

[camerata]

I recall it being expressed that we are already enlightened but just aren't aware of it.

That's Mahayana. Stick with one tradition and everything is much simpler.

[fabianfred]

Is the human realm the only one with the hidden door to stream entry?

mostly...IMHO.... but from the higher realms perhaps only when a Buddha is still alive and can teach those beings...

If you get through this door, will you know this has happened after re birth?

Maybe, maybe not....perhaps birth as a Sotapanna would lead one to become ordained and further practice take one higher to where knowledge of one's state of attainment became known

What does it mean to be Arahant, as I thought at some point one simply becomes enlightened and continues in this state until death, at which point one escapes to Nirvana (cessation of re birth & suffering).

Arahant is the four and last stage and can be attained to in the human or higher realm.... but not the same as enlightenment which infers attaining to Buddhahood

And further, some escape to Nirvana permanently, whilst others are destined to return to teach the way.

That is only the Mahayana understanding, but since the state of Nibbana is unknowable to us until we achieve it, perhaps once parinibanna has happened a past Arahant or Buddha can return and help other beings, not by rebirth but in some other way.

Are there more in Nirvana than in Samsara?

doubtful since it is so hard to attain to..

The human realm is the smallest of the 31...remembering when the Buddha caught up some dust on his fingernail and compared it to beings in the human realm whilst the whole Earth would compare to beings in the four lower realms.

Could Nirvana be non existence? IMHO not non-existence, but existence of a kind and in such a state as to be incomprehensible to us simple beings in our three-dimensional world...

Non existence is also permanent and unconditioned.

Non existence would also be peaceful as suffering would not exist.

[fabianfred]

Hence the Mahayana schools began to teach that 'nirvana' is in 'samsara'. Actually both terms can be understood properly according to the Pali Suttas, which are the closest to the original teachings of the Buddha that we have. Then there is no confusing of these two terms with physical realms.

Does this explain why some believe Nirvana to be a state rather than a place?

I recall it being expressed that we are already enlightened but just aren't aware of it.

My teacher Supawan Green says that Nibbana is actually so Normal that we wouldn't believe it. Instead of a big 'Wow!' moment when it is attained to, there is more like a "Oh, is that it...." as if, she says, we had a mountain right in front of our nose but only just became aware of it. Realising the truth about things and our incorrect understanding about them, fooled by our defilements.

[Samuian]

"Escape the minds minefield"!

Ekamaivatvitiyam - Eines ohne Zweites!

There's nothing to reach, it's already here,realize and be,stop searching,the search creates the mind's minefield, it creates controversies, dualities, the yin vs. yang instead of tujiita, the whole and one, to search means not to understand, not to accept, not be here and now, not to have arrived, but then, where to go? - heaven and hell - samsara and nirvana, not nirvana without samsara, no samsara without nirvana - da splitting of a hair, for the splitting sake!

Be aware and awake, escape the minds minefield!

Breathe and be watchful!

[rockyysdt]

"Escape the minds minefield"!

Ekamaivatvitiyam - Eines ohne Zweites!

There's nothing to reach, it's already here,realize and be,stop searching,the search creates the mind's minefield, it creates controversies, dualities, the yin vs. yang instead of tujiita, the whole and one, to search means not to understand, not to accept, not be here and now, not to have arrived, but then, where to go? - heaven and hell - samsara and nirvana, not nirvana without samsara, no samsara without nirvana - da splitting of a hair, for the splitting sake!

Be aware and awake, escape the minds minefield!

Breathe and be watchful!

Good to read from you Samuian.

I know you're big on practice which will yield answers in good time.

Your quotes are very inspiring.

In terms of Dhamma (a facet of the triple gem), how deep should we go?

[Brucenkhamen]

I recall it being expressed that we are already enlightened but just aren't aware of it.

That's Mahayana. Stick with one tradition and everything is much simpler.

I think if one sees it as a doctrine to be believed in then it's problematic.

As a skilful means though I think it's a good counterbalance to the goal oriented idea that it's all about me attaining something I haven't got which some practitioners fall into. Instead if we consider that it's greed aversion and delusion that are obstructing our awakening we realise that enlightenment is a process of letting go rather than of attaining.

[fabianfred]

We do attain wisdom when letting go of the defilements.

[rockyysdt]

We do attain wisdom when letting go of the defilements.

Does letting go of defilements include letting go of ones self identity or ego?

Some have said this is psychologically dangerous.

[Samuian]

"Escape the minds minefield"!

Ekamaivatvitiyam - Eines ohne Zweites!

There's nothing to reach, it's already here,realize and be,stop searching,the search creates the mind's minefield, it creates controversies, dualities, the yin vs. yang instead of tujiita, the whole and one, to search means not to understand, not to accept, not be here and now, not to have arrived, but then, where to go? - heaven and hell - samsara and nirvana, not nirvana without samsara, no samsara without nirvana - da splitting of a hair, for the splitting sake!

Be aware and awake, escape the minds minefield!

Breathe and be watchful!

Good to read from you Samuian.

I know you're big on practice which will yield answers in good time.

Your quotes are very inspiring.

In terms of Dhamma (a facet of the triple gem), how deep should we go?

Yo, :jap: the univers's pleasure!

What's "Dhamma" or "triple gem" rockyysdt?

got some topaz, aquamarine, some opal, ruby, sapphire thai/sri lankan, moonstone, natural zirconia, turmaline, tanzanite, moldavite, emerald but non "triple", they all are unique though!

and:

The Absolute Truth is the nameless, formless, and Subject-Objectless Perfect Unity of Existence and Experience, free from all contradictions and relativity, qualifications, limitations and negations. The Absolute Truth, by virtue of its infinite, eternal, dynamic aspect, eternally and freely manifests Itself in all kinds of names and forms, all orders of phenomenal existences and experiences, all sorts of dualities and negativities, and harmonizes and unifies them in the all comprehending calm and tranquility of Itself.''

- Sri Gorakhshanath of the Adi-nath Order -

Adesh, Adesh!

[camerata]

As a skilful means though I think it's a good counterbalance to the goal oriented idea that it's all about me attaining something I haven't got which some practitioners fall into.

Good point. Ajahn Sumedho goes into the pitfalls of trying to become something or attain something in his latest book.