Can We Establish Ownership Of Property?

[LeighB]

Hello

Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction...

Last year my father passed away very unexpectedly and my sister and I are trying to sort out his estate. One of the biggest problems with have is that my father had a Thai girlfiend and had decided to have a house built in Thailand about five years ago, we believe on land that her family owned, at quite a considerable cost to him, he was planning to live there when he retired. Unfortunately my father was a vey private person and we do not have much information regarding this house. All we know is that he had not been to Thailand for two years and that the relationship with his girlfriend seemed to have deteriorated and we have not heard from her at all since his death.

I know my father would not have spent so much money without somehow securing it ( he had already been 'ripped off' by our mum when they got divorced) He was self employed and would not have had a mortgage for this house build. I have read that Limited companies can somehow own property in Thailand?

All we will have is the address of the property, is there any way that we can try to establish who actually owns it?

Would appreciate any advice.

Many thanks

[Rinrada]

Have you tried your local land office first.

They should be able to give you details of ownership but you may have to prove your involvement with the property/interests as well.

I (and K.wife) have a case going on at the moment to protect her nieces land and property and fortunately we have all the docs. but its funny how all the long forgotten relatives suddenly appear and become very polite and friendly when they get the whiff of "dosh"in the air.

Fortunately our lawyer is also the wifes mate and her local bank manager...mai co jai and hopefully when we actually do the deed in a month times ...swear and witness the chanots/land stuff/affi etc. at the court her niece will be declared the rightfull owner etc.....but TIT...

[LeighB]

Hi

Many thanks

The big problem is that my sister and I both live in the UK. we have absolutely no idea about Thai property law whatsoever and wouldn't have a clue where to start?

Had our father's death not been so sudden, we know he would have sorted all this out and had all the proper documentation drawn up but unfortunately not.

[Thetyim]

What do you hope to gain from this ?

If the land belongs to the Gf then the house is just a pile of bricks and some bits of wood. She will ask you to remove your house from her land.

[loong]

Thetyim is right. And if the house is in a village and you can somehow find ownership papers for the house, it will still be worth nothing. In fact the owner of the land would be within her rights to demand that the house is removed from her property at your cost!

Anyway, if he had the house built 5 years ago, how can you say that he didn't have time to sort things out?

My advice to you is to forget the house, it is likely to only bring you grief.

My condolences for your loss.

[Thetyim]

The best that your father could have done is to lease the land for 30 years. Rent may be due for the next 25 years.

By the way, where is the house.

Maybe we have a member nearby

[Digger]

If you would just like to get closure on this matter one way or the other, you can instruct a lawyer to go to the land office where the property is located and ascertain who the land is owned by. Now depending upon where the land is, you may find that the property itself is not even registered, which could complicate things no end.

A typical Thai address could be something like the following

235/25 Moo 6 or Soi 25

Small village

Provincial town

Province

postal code

The first part identifies the moo bahn or actual estate the house is located on or smaller geographical area if not a mo bahn - the second part is the number of the actual house in that estate or geographical area. The Moo part is essentially a bigger geographical area within the village or the number or name of a street if its considered a built up area which is shown next. Then if its a village that comes next and then they follow with the nearest town of any size which this village comes under and then the province or county

If you just let us know the provincial town and province, it will be quite easy to guess how the property is owned - particularly if it was done 5 years ago. If its not in Phuket, Pattaya, Koh Samui, Hua Hin, Chiang Mai or Bangkok, I would be very surprised if its set up under a company name for the simple reason that many buyers outside of these areas, realise that the chances of selling the property are extremely slim given that there is virtually no resale market outside of the bigger tourist orientated destinations. Therefore most properties are in the names of wifes and or children and will just pass through that family and never be sold on.

[vankleeff]

Please read this carefully if you have any idea, in which way your father owned the house. At a local landoffice you might be able to find more information about his position.

****SPAM DELETED*****

If it is in Chiang Mai, please contact me personnally at: [email protected]

****SPAM DELETED*****

I think you really need to find more information, try to contact that girl you talk about or give her contactinformation, and a local might help you.

If you don't have any information at all, and only a pre-paid phone number of her....... Then I think its better to give up... I am sorry for you.

Thai property law

might seem fairly restrictive as applied to foreigners, but it is really not different from other countries where special treaties are not in place. Thai law stipulates that foreigners may not own land in their own name; a foreigner has the right of ownership of buildings only. There are, however, four ways in which foreigners can legally own or acquire land in the Kingdom of Thailand ...

Option # 1 (for single gentlemen)

Meet and marry a Thai woman you love and trust, and buy the house and land in her name, and live happily together ever after! This beautifully simple solution is, for reasons we will not discuss here, the least popular option.

Option # 2 - Limited Company - recommended.

Foreigners, aliens, or farangs, can form a Limited Company and register the land as owned by the company. The foreigner can personally own maximum 49% of the company shares, and the remaining 51% must be in the names of Thai nationals (39% - 61% at the time of registration of the property; can be changed after). The foreigner is named sole executive director in the company's Articles of Association, and the Thai shareholder nominees all sign undated Share Transfer Contracts at the time the company is being registered. This effectively puts 100% control of the company and its assets in the hands of the foreign director. The Thai shareholders have absolutely no executive power within the company, nor need they be consulted over any issues at any time. They can also be replaced anytime at the director's wishes. (A Thai Limited Company must have minimum 7 shareholders - for example, one foreigner and six Thais). Setting up such a company takes about half an hour and your signature about 30 times.

A popular misconception which causes foreigners unnecessary concern is that such companies are owned by foreigners and could be exposed to imagined special (future) legislation by an imagined (future) extreme nationalist government with the intention of robbing foreigners of their real estate investments in Thailand. The fact is, however, that Limited Companies are owned by the shareholders, not their directors, the foreigners. As such, Limited Companies are Thai juristic entities subject to Thai commercial law, and any changes to legislation must apply to all Limited Companies, not only those whose directors happen to be foreigners. Thai law, both commercial and personal, is not so very different from legislation in most other countries, and it applies to all juristic entities in Thailand, foreign or Thai.

****SPAM DELETED*****

Option # 3 - Lease - limited recommendation.

Foreigners can lease land on a 30 year contract which contains a clause giving the lessee first option on a further 30 years. The same contract, registered at the Land Office (Department of Lands), can be renewed every 30 years for a maximum of 990 years. The lessor's heirs are bound by law to honour the agreement, and the lessee can bequeath the lease to his/her heirs in a Last Will and Testament. A potential weakness with this solution is, for example, that the lessor can conceivably claim that the lessee is mismanaging the land to the detriment of its value, and can sue to dissolve the agreement. Of course, this point must be proven in court, but could be a serious headache for the lessee. So, you always have to do with another party, while having a Limited Company gives you 100% effective control. This means a trustworthy partner is necessary.

Option # 4 - Contract of Credit – not recommended.

Instead of purchase or lease, the payment for land can be registered as a loan to the seller, documented in a Contract of Credit, registered at the Land Office. The value of the loan is set at the registered value of the land plus the actual building cost of any structures on the land. The buyer's name appears on the Title Deed as creditor, which effectively prevents the registered owner (debtor) from selling the land before repaying the loan. The weakness with this solution is that as property values rise, the value of the property will in the future be greater than the value of the loan, and the debtor could conceivably buy the land back at bargain price simply by repaying the loan.

Buying condominiums

A foreigner buying a condo must transfer funds in foreign currency from a bank account outside Thailand to an account at a Thai bank. The name of the transferee must be the same as the name that will appear on the final purchase contract, ie. the buyer. Use Bangkok Bank, Kasikorn Bank (f.k.a. Thai Farmer's Bank) or Siam Commercial Bank and be sure you tell them that funds transferred to the account will be used to purchase a condominium. Transfers must be made in amounts USD 20.000 or more in order to qualify for a Foreign Exchange Transaction Form issued by the buyer's bank to verify that the originating funding came from outside Thailand in a currency other than Thai Baht. This bank certificate explicitly states that the Thai Baht funds are used "to purchase a condominium" in Thailand. The department of Lands (Land Office) will refuse to execute the ownership transfer if the bank certificate cannot be produced.

[Dragonman]

Please read this carefully if you have any idea, in which way your father owned the house. At a local landoffice you might be able to find more information about his position.

****SPAM DELETED*****

If it is in Chiang Mai, please contact me personnally at: [email protected]

****SPAM DELETED*****

I think you really need to find more information, try to contact that girl you talk about or give her contactinformation, and a local might help you.

If you don't have any information at all, and only a pre-paid phone number of her....... Then I think its better to give up... I am sorry for you.

Thai property law

might seem fairly restrictive as applied to foreigners, but it is really not different from other countries where special treaties are not in place. Thai law stipulates that foreigners may not own land in their own name; a foreigner has the right of ownership of buildings only. There are, however, four ways in which foreigners can legally own or acquire land in the Kingdom of Thailand ...

Option # 1 (for single gentlemen)

Meet and marry a Thai woman you love and trust, and buy the house and land in her name, and live happily together ever after! This beautifully simple solution is, for reasons we will not discuss here, the least popular option.

Option # 2 - Limited Company - recommended.

Foreigners, aliens, or farangs, can form a Limited Company and register the land as owned by the company. The foreigner can personally own maximum 49% of the company shares, and the remaining 51% must be in the names of Thai nationals (39% - 61% at the time of registration of the property; can be changed after). The foreigner is named sole executive director in the company's Articles of Association, and the Thai shareholder nominees all sign undated Share Transfer Contracts at the time the company is being registered. This effectively puts 100% control of the company and its assets in the hands of the foreign director. The Thai shareholders have absolutely no executive power within the company, nor need they be consulted over any issues at any time. They can also be replaced anytime at the director's wishes. (A Thai Limited Company must have minimum 7 shareholders - for example, one foreigner and six Thais). Setting up such a company takes about half an hour and your signature about 30 times.

A popular misconception which causes foreigners unnecessary concern is that such companies are owned by foreigners and could be exposed to imagined special (future) legislation by an imagined (future) extreme nationalist government with the intention of robbing foreigners of their real estate investments in Thailand. The fact is, however, that Limited Companies are owned by the shareholders, not their directors, the foreigners. As such, Limited Companies are Thai juristic entities subject to Thai commercial law, and any changes to legislation must apply to all Limited Companies, not only those whose directors happen to be foreigners. Thai law, both commercial and personal, is not so very different from legislation in most other countries, and it applies to all juristic entities in Thailand, foreign or Thai.

****SPAM DELETED*****

Option # 3 - Lease - limited recommendation.

Foreigners can lease land on a 30 year contract which contains a clause giving the lessee first option on a further 30 years. The same contract, registered at the Land Office (Department of Lands), can be renewed every 30 years for a maximum of 990 years. The lessor's heirs are bound by law to honour the agreement, and the lessee can bequeath the lease to his/her heirs in a Last Will and Testament. A potential weakness with this solution is, for example, that the lessor can conceivably claim that the lessee is mismanaging the land to the detriment of its value, and can sue to dissolve the agreement. Of course, this point must be proven in court, but could be a serious headache for the lessee. So, you always have to do with another party, while having a Limited Company gives you 100% effective control. This means a trustworthy partner is necessary. 

Option # 4 - Contract of Credit – not recommended.

Instead of purchase or lease, the payment for land can be registered as a loan to the seller, documented in a Contract of Credit, registered at the Land Office. The value of the loan is set at the registered value of the land plus the actual building cost of any structures on the land. The buyer's name appears on the Title Deed as creditor, which effectively prevents the registered owner (debtor) from selling the land before repaying the loan. The weakness with this solution is that as property values rise, the value of the property will in the future be greater than the value of the loan, and the debtor could conceivably buy the land back at bargain price simply by repaying the loan.

Buying condominiums

A foreigner buying a condo must transfer funds in foreign currency from a bank account outside Thailand to an account at a Thai bank. The name of the transferee must be the same as the name that will appear on the final purchase contract, ie. the buyer. Use Bangkok Bank, Kasikorn Bank (f.k.a. Thai Farmer's Bank) or Siam Commercial Bank and be sure you tell them that funds transferred to the account will be used to purchase a condominium. Transfers must be made in amounts USD 20.000 or more in order to qualify for a Foreign Exchange Transaction Form issued by the buyer's bank to verify that the originating funding came from outside Thailand in a currency other than Thai Baht. This bank certificate explicitly states that the Thai Baht funds are used "to purchase a condominium" in Thailand. The department of Lands (Land Office) will refuse to execute the ownership transfer if the bank certificate cannot be produced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unethical!

ED: Spam has been dealt with.

vankleeff: If you wish to advertise, please contact the board administrators and they will be happy to talk to you about advertising on this site.

[LeighB]

Excuse my naivety but what is unethical??

Thank you all for your advice, I need to get the address of the house from my sister so that I can follow up on some of it. It is very difficult to know what to do for the best, we are not trying to take the house from the girlfriend but feel we need to tie up all the loose ends as his will was written before this house was built and it has used up most of his lifelong savings. I hope you can understand.

[Khutan]

Can I be so bold as to suggest you contact the Forum Sponsor Sunbelt Asia.

If you are in the UK, then the cost of having it sorted professionally may be less than the cost of the ticket to come here and waste your own time.

I got a quote from the a few days ago that in terms of UK Pounds is a very small amount of money, to do all manner of things.

[LeighB]

Thanks Mattnich... yes you can be so bold!!

Could I just ask who exactly Sunbelt Asia are, apart from being the sponsors?

Thanks

[Boo]

they offer legal & business advice for foreigners in thailand as well as helping secure the safest way to buy land/property. Send them a mail & see what they can do.

Personally, if the house is on the gf's land, then legally there isn't much you can do with it in terms of selling it etc but they may be able to establish if your father had a 30 year lease in place, in which case you may have some rights to what happens to it.

[Sumitr Man]

The best that your father could have done is to lease the land for 30 years.  Rent may be due for the next 25 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, under the CCC, a lease contract is extinuished on the death of the lessee (rentor) and the property returns to the lessor (hirer).

SM

[loong]

I don't know what CCC means, but surely it depends on how the lease was written.

But anyway, if a solid lease and property is out in the sticks, value of lease is only what someone is prepared to pay. So probably worthless.

If property is not in an area where you may find a farang buyer of the lease, I repeat, forget it

[Thetyim]

Thanks Simitr, I didn't know that.

[Sumitr Man]

Hi Loong:

"CCC" stands for the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand.

Under Section 541 a contract for hire may be made for the duration of the life of the letter or of the hirer. Section 569 goes on to prescribe that a contract of hire of immovable property [land] is not extinguished by the transfer of ownership of the property hired.

Thus, reading these two sections together, insofar as a lease of land contract is concered:

* the lease will terminate under Section 541 in the event that the hirer (rentor) dies

* the lease will not terminate, under Section 569, and will still be enforceable, in the event that letter dies.

It is one reason why companies are also advised to be the hirer, as, subject to bankruptcy and liquidation, a company cannot die.

SM

[Sumitr Man]

I should add that you could have a contractual clause that your heirs inherit the lease contract from you (as the rentor). On this note I have rec'd differing views, some say such a clause would be enforceable and others that it would not be (esp. if there is an ongoing obligation to pay rent rather than the right of abode). What is sure is that failing such a clause in the contract, the lease would terminate.

SM

[LeighB]

Hi Sumitr

You seem very knowledgeable and this all looks like a mine field to me!

It's unfortunate that I don't have more information on this at the moment.

I'm sure some people here wonder why I am doing this, but most of our inheritance has gone into what would have been my father's retirement home and it doesn't look as though we will be able to get anything back. Also when my father wrote his will about 10 years ago, he bequethed a sum of money to his girlfriend but this was before he had the house built, so the money spent there was not taken into account. He also still has a Thai bank account but the money in there would pay the girlfriend the amount stated in the will. But this leaves nothing for his children and grandchildren. He would not have wanted this to happen, but as I said his death was very sudden and he had not put his afffairs in order. We have never heard from the girlfriend but want to do whatever is fair for all concerned.

[Dragonman]

I don't know what CCC means, but surely it depends on how the lease was written.

But anyway, if a solid lease and property is out in the sticks, value of lease is only what someone is prepared to pay. So probably worthless.

If property is not in an area where you may find a farang buyer of the lease, I repeat, forget it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have to agree with loong to forget it. There will be no market for lease purchases on residential property. It is difficult enough to deal with landlords of large condo complexes. To deal with some thai lady who feels that someone has "stolen" her property would be impossible. The slightest thing and she would be looking to nullify the lease due to non performance.

[Godders]

Option # 2 - Limited Company - recommended.

Foreigners, aliens, or farangs, can form a Limited Company and register the land as owned by the company.

Is this option available to a falang living in Thailand on a Retirement Visa? Or is one to assume you cannot be retired and a company director at the same time. Sorry if I sound dumb, but the LoS is full of contradictions and you just never know. . .

[LeighB]

I now have the property address, it is located in Angthong.

Woud anyone be able to recommend a good solicitor.in Thailand. I have tried Sunbelt but they have not responded to two of my emails. I have also been in communication with a firm of solcitors I found on Google but they seem very expensive but I don't know what is a reasonable charge. He said he would charge 100,000 Baht initially plus any other Government costs, disbursursements and VAT at 7%, it coud cost us a fortune.

All I want to do is to find out whether my father had ownership of this property in Angthong and how to get the money he has in his Thai bank account transferred back to the UK.

Any recommendations woud be welcomed.

Many Thanks

[simon43]

LeighB, just a suggestion re the money in his Thai bank account. Rather than trying to 'export' this money back to the Uk, it would be much easier if you simply 'swapped' this money for an equal amount that someone holds outside Thailand, but someone who sends money regularly to Thailand.

EG - I live in Thailand but have a UK bank account. I 'import' funds every month to Thailand. So I (or another person in a similar situation) could simply pay you this sum from my UK bank account whilst you transfer your Thai bank funds to my Thai bank account.

My father did this years ago when his mother died in Eygpt. He couldn't export the funds, so he actually sold them to the UK embassy in Eygpt!

cheers - Simon

[simon43]

LeighB, just a suggestion re the money in his Thai bank account. Rather than trying to 'export' this money back to the Uk, it would be much easier if you simply 'swapped' this money for an equal amount that someone holds outside Thailand, but someone who sends money regularly to Thailand.

EG - I live in Thailand but have a UK bank account. I 'import' funds every month to Thailand. So I (or another person in a similar situation) could simply pay you this sum from my UK bank account whilst you transfer your Thai bank funds to my Thai bank account.

My father did this years ago when his mother died in Eygpt. He couldn't export the funds, so he actually sold them to the UK embassy in Eygpt!

cheers - Simon