The Darker Side Of Cm

[folium]

Sadly paedophile activity is indeed found worldwide, but in Thailand it is found on an almost industrial scale and places such as Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket are renowned for it. CM has the reputation for "only" a low level of sexual exploitation and abuse. Unfortunately this is not the case and partially for some of the reasons highlighted in the OP, in that here it is predominantly an Asian rather than farang customer base for such exploitation and abuse. There does IMHO seem to be an attitude in CM along the lines of... "that sort of thing doesn't really happen here". The film clip in the OP was about paedophile activities here, undermining that belief of it being someone else's problem.

People need to be aware of the scale of child abuse in the CM area and be quite clear that all forms of sex exploitation and abuse are not victimless crimes, before making light of the situation (whether it be google ads selling women or the "delights" of farang-visited establishments). If you want more detail on this there is a very well-informed and eloquent British policeman, who has served in London and Glasgow, currently on secondment here in CM for 3 years working on the issue of child abuse. His accounts of what happens in and around CM would make you see this place in a very different, and unflattering light.

The fact that child abuse is a systematic, organized and widespread problem in and around CM is a very valid issue to raise, to make people aware of, and unfortunately also the need to be aware of the recognized problem of reporting/addressing the issue due to the particular nature of law enforcement.

Edited May 24, 2011 by sbk
discussion of moderation removed

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Whoa whoa.. don't make this a direct rant, it'll just get closed down again. Please focus on the content of what was reported by CNN about Chiang Mai.

Clearly the video was reported from Chiang Mai and showed separate child secual abuse cases that all took place in Chiang Mai. It also showed the Rainbow Home and an interview with the people there, which is of course located in Chiang Mai.

Just about the only part not from Chiang Mai was the interview with Paveena Hongsakul, and the raid on the karaoke place in Suphan where teenage girls were found.

The fact that child abuse is a systematic, organized and widespread problem in and around CM is a very valid issue to raise, to make people aware of, and unfortunately also the need to be aware of the recognized problem of reporting/addressing the issue due to the particular nature of law enforcement.

Edited May 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So getting back on topic, the thing that struck me the most was something I was already expecting for a long time, namely that child abuse may occur at some Buddhist temples very much to the same degree as we have seen it uncovered in the Roman Catholic faith. In Buddhist temples, even MORE so than in Catholic churches, young children (apprentice monks) live in a temple compound 24/7. The exposure is much bigger, and Buddhist monks are also held to celibacy. I think we will see a lot more of this in the coming years.

For example, I would definitely not let my son attend any kind of unsupervised stay at any temple.

For reference, the CNN report from Chiang Mai is here: http://edition.cnn.c...aves.cnn?hpt=C2

Edited May 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[sbk]

All posts discussing moderation have been deleted. Please note that the OP of this thread did contact me as requested and has managed to post a rational discussion of an important issue rather than a rant aimed at one person. Further discussion of moderation will not be tolerated.

This topic can stay open so long as we are aware that there are ground rules and those rules include no personal attacks and the ability to keep it civil and within the bounds of this forum.

[folium]

All posts discussing moderation have been deleted. Please note that the OP of this thread did contact me as requested and has managed to post a rational discussion of an important issue rather than a rant aimed at one person. Further discussion of moderation will not be tolerated.

This topic can stay open so long as we are aware that there are ground rules and those rules include no personal attacks and the ability to keep it civil and within the bounds of this forum.

Just to recap my original points.

The sexual abuse and exploitation of children is not just a feature of Pattaya, Bangkok or Patong. It is happening right here, right now, as highlighted in these 3 recent film clips (one from CNN and 2 from YouTube):

http://edition.cnn.c...aves.cnn?hpt=C2

thank you to Paagai for the last two.

I don't wish to be some depressing killjoy, but having heard a first-hand account of some of the abuse of children in the CM area, I was utterly horrified and it jolted me out of the complacency that such things only happen in scummy places elsewhere, not possibly in CM.

Thailand has a reputation as a place that cares for children and is a great place to bring them up. My only concern is that it should remain that way.

Edited May 24, 2011 by folium

[heybruce]

Granted, we should not ignore child prostitution/sex abuse if we see it, but I haven't seen any of it, and to the best of my knowledge no one I know is involved in it. For obvious reasons I'm not going to go looking for it. While I'm all for ending the appalling business and doing whatever it takes to keep adults from harming children, what do you expect the expat who isn't a pervert to do?

Edited May 24, 2011 by heybruce

[edwardandtubs]

Thailand has a reputation as a place that cares for children and is a great place to bring them up.

No it doesn't. You are clearly completely deluded.

[Blinky Bill]

Rose colored glasses are a marvelous invention. Seems to me that so many expats wear them.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Blinky Bill

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Granted, we should not ignore child prostitution/sex abuse if we see it, but I haven't seen any of it, and to the best of my knowledge no one I know is involved in it. For obvious reasons I'm not going to go looking for it. While I'm all for ending the appalling business and doing whatever it takes to keep adults from harming children, what do you expect the expat who isn't a pervert to do?

Keep his eyes open. Clearly it's not something you see all over the place, but it's possible that at some point you come across child sexual abuse. Note that this would apply anywhere else in the world too. Of course do note that it's most likely to occur in situations where there is not a foreigner in sight. At least from local expats we can expect to not get the wrong perception from only seeing news reports that feature foreigners, simply because that sells better oversaeas.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Thailand has a reputation as a place that cares for children and is a great place to bring them up.

No it doesn't. You are clearly completely deluded.

No he isn't. It depends who you ask. As with so many other topics when it comes to Thailand, there isn't a black or white answer. Are most Thais great with kids: absolutely; anyone with kids can attest to that. Is it a great place to bring them up... : IMHO safety in general remains an issue. Does Thailand have a great reputation about kids abroad, among people who have never been here (with kids): clearly no. Was your post a senseless flame that added nothing positive to the discussion: yes it was.

Edited May 24, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[ricardofel]

Thailand has a reputation as a place that cares for children and is a great place to bring them up.

No it doesn't. You are clearly completely deluded.

Absolutely correct! Thailand has a lousy reputation regarding children. Do you have any idea how many children are kidnapped from their villages every year? 100's if not more....never to be seen again and where do you think they go?........into the child sex trade! And a great place to bring them up????? The education system is a disgrace with "teachers" buying their certificates. Totally disgraceful, but there are so many similar instances.

[Loaded]

Thailand has a reputation as a place that cares for children and is a great place to bring them up.

No it doesn't. You are clearly completely deluded.

Absolutely correct! Thailand has a lousy reputation regarding children. Do you have any idea how many children are kidnapped from their villages every year? 100's if not more....never to be seen again and where do you think they go?........into the child sex trade! And a great place to bring them up????? The education system is a disgrace with "teachers" buying their certificates. Totally disgraceful, but there are so many similar instances.

There's no need to kidnap children as there is no shortage of parents in villages willing to sell their children.

[isanbirder]

In some villages in the Chiang Dao area, buyers from Bangkok come annually to 'buy up the crop' of primary school leavers (this is information from some years ago, but is probably still true). This applies to girls only as far as I know. The girls go to exclusively Thai brothels.

Being gay myself (but not a paedophile!), I've met several boys in Chiangmai who claim that they were introduced to the sex trade when they were 13 or 14. I've also met some who said they learnt all they knew about gay sex when they were at temple schools.

Edited May 25, 2011 by isanbirder

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Thailand has a reputation as a place that cares for children and is a great place to bring them up.

No it doesn't. You are clearly completely deluded.

Absolutely correct! Thailand has a lousy reputation regarding children. Do you have any idea how many children are kidnapped from their villages every year? 100's if not more....never to be seen again and where do you think they go?........into the child sex trade! And a great place to bring them up????? The education system is a disgrace with "teachers" buying their certificates. Totally disgraceful, but there are so many similar instances.

There's no need to kidnap children as there is no shortage of parents in villages willing to sell their children.

Yes, I think Ricardofel needs to go back to bed. If kidnapping from villages was rife (other than domestically after a divorce by a parent) then surely you'd hear or read about it more. From people, or in the (Thai) press, etc. Does it never ever happen... won't claim that either. But this can't be a piece of knowledge that only Ricardo is privy to.

[chiang mai]

I wouldn't be so hasty in dismissing Ricardofel's comments, I also have read over the years that the kidnapping of children from the northern villages is rife, what is perhaps somewhat more common however is that children are sold by their parents and later reported as having been kidnapped, but since I don't have any fact6s or figures to back this all up I suppose it's nothing more than hearsay at this point. But you only have to drive down the Hang Dong road and see the signs/adverts reminding everyone that people trafficking is taken seriously and that the hotline number is whatever it is. You also only need to look at the number of movies on this subject that are produced and released in Thailand, kidnapping, trafficking and the associated human misery all being the focal point of them. Personally I believe it is a serious problem.

[Dellboy218]

I do remember, though I have not seen it for many years, being in a village when a mini bus with 'blacked out' windows went past very slowly. Mothers grabbed their children and and carried them away from the road side. Like I said quite some years ago and mini buses were not quite so common then. The fear may have been through direct knowledge or perhaps because of ''urban legends'' but one can not decry a parent for erring on the side of caution.

Some many years ago the BBC, perhaps it was Panorama (their investigative programme), aired a programme made in Bangkok about underage 'working girls'. They trapped one house owner/operator with a 14 year old girl. The girl was then released and returned to her Grand mother somewhere in the north near a border. The footnote to the programme was that the grandmother had sold the girl ''again'' after the programme was made!

[Puwa]

Here's a link to the Missing Persons center, which is a civil-society project that helps track people of all ages who have gone missing for some reason. Unfortunately, only the discussion forum is active because the NGO that started the effort has had trouble finding sponsors. But there's good information on individual cases as well as the "white van" urban legend.

http://www.backtohome.org/

[Nawtier]

Rose colored glasses are a marvelous invention. Seems to me that so many expats wear them.

Why is that exactly Blinky ??

[Paagai]

Before you can discuss or condemn what goes on, you have to first understand the cultural context in Thailand, and view the issue from a Thai rather than western standpoint. From what I see, young people having sex post puberty is not a big cultural taboo or seen as a problem by a lot of Thais, be it having sex with their peers or with older Thais. The age of consent is generally regarded as 15 and my Thai friends tell me many amusing stories of what they got up to as young teenagers, with no shame, embarrassment or remorse.

You also have to understand the local sex industry (Thai - Thai) is a major economic driver in Thailand (and many places elsewhere in Asia) provided it is discreet, it is again not a major Taboo. In and around Chiang Mai there are many brothels of one type or another where young people provide sexual services to Thai customers. Not all are forced into it, some may have been trafficked from outside the country (Burma, Laos, China), some may have been sold by their parents, or kidnapped, but equally some are just school kids making some extra cash (often just to pay for drugs). This is big business and is run by the usual mafias where the game keepers are also the poachers, this isn't going to change any time soon. Anyone who thinks reporting activities to the local BIB will produce results doesn't understand the situation

Some rural Thais (especially hill tribe) also see their kids as their providers; sending them to actively get involved in the sex industry and send money home, or worse still simply selling them like the rice crop.

The above may come as a shock, and maybe morally abhorrent and incomprehensible to many westerners, but, TIT and just the way things are.

The problem comes when you insert western people and thinking into the above. Firstly, you have western pedophiles coming here to get, what is not available at home, and secondly, the "do gooders" who seek to impose western values on the situation. Some of which is good, some ill advised. Some "do gooders" then become part of the problem, e.g. setting up schools etc, where child abuse becomes part of the curriculum.

In my opinion, the only way things will change is by a gradual process of educating the people, and removing the root causes which are poverty and corruption. Not something that will happen quickly in Thailand. Those who want to have some real long term effect would be better engaged in lobbying the Thai governmental bodies and Thai people for change than some forms of direct action we see.

[Nawtier]

Good post Paagai......agree with much, disagree with some.

The mention of 'do gooders' seems to be cast as an overall general put down to people that wish to help.

Nothing wrong with people helping and nothing wrong with people that can and do, by whatever means they use to raise funds to do so, in providing an education for some that would be otherwise lacking, or non existent.

While granted some are not run properly and fall apart and some do perpetuate the problem, this seems to be a problem based on the management of each individual project, rather than an overall across the board situation.

I was going to post this before, but hesitated, your post has prompted me to do so.

At what age is it considered ok and with different countries having different ages and different cultural backgrounds.....what age is ok in Thailand as this is where we are.

Personally if you need to have an age then i would put it at any kids under 13yo, so those from infants to and including 12yo. Kids 13yo and over certainly have an ability of varying degrees to take care of themselves in varying ways. So it is the much younger kids that I believe the focus should be on, the ones that do not know and the ones that cannot help themselves, the vulnerable ones.

While your post says quite rightly that kids of some ages enter into sexual relations voluntarily and some for exchange of money, unless forced in any way and the act is not mutually agreeable, then I think they should be left to their own devices somewhat, you cannot save the whole world, so try to help the younger ones that are not in the position to choose and obviously forced.

Children forced into prostitution and sexual abuse for pornography need the help and the people responsible dealt with, Thai or foreign....no questions about this and it is this younger group that all stops need to be pulled out to help.....properly and constructively though.

It is a difficult and very grey area....the only black and white is that a 6yo girl or boy should never ever have to face such extremes....EVER....and if people that want to help in legitimate ways can, then well and good, go forth and do it as far as I am concerned.

[Nawtier]

Those who want to have some real long term effect would be better engaged in lobbying the Thai governmental bodies and Thai people for change than some forms of direct action we see.

In reality I would prefer to see a child saved, rescued from sexual abuse tomorrow with my funds than spending it on lobbying a corrupt government that may never see change 10 years on.......its all about practicalities.

[Gonzo the Face]

I find that there is a sadness in discussing this topic.

As many of you know I have a couple of little ones here and couldn't love them more if they were my grandchildren of my blood. Little PoPo is of an age now where she can go with 'gran'pa' on certain shopping trips. I wonder some times how others see us, as a grandpa with his grandaughter or as some kind of a pervert with a little girl. But it still is a very warm feeling inside being out shopping with her, and her helping grandpa by holding the pen and shopping list. So thoughts put aside, I still feel good seeing her learn and develop her abilities.

Having said that, I would just like to add something that was told to me some time ago.

"Say what you will about paedophiles, but you have to give them credit,,,, they do slow down in school zones.

[IanForbes]

There is really slimy stuff that goes on in all parts of the globe, but you REALLY have to know where to go looking to find it. Before I got involved in trying to help I would make sure I had police protection before sticking my nose in places where it isn't wanted. It might be too easy to get lumped in with the abusers and get charged yourself.

[Nawtier]

There is really slimy stuff that goes on in all parts of the globe, but you REALLY have to know where to go looking to find it. Before I got involved in trying to help I would make sure I had police protection before sticking my nose in places where it isn't wanted. It might be too easy to get lumped in with the abusers and get charged yourself.

No question....it is not something you would go gung ho and do alone or with your buddies.....you would surely end up in a complicated mess.

Only way is to go with approval and authority from someone official if you are asked complicated questions.

There are organisations that do this successfully and co-ordination is essential.

[Nawtier]

I wonder some times how others see us, as a grandpa with his grandaughter or as some kind of a pervert with a little girl.

The ignorance of others is not worthy of consideration.

[cheshiregent]

iv lived in thailand about 6 years the last 5 in cm and iv been offered every kind of drug and sexual pleasure you can think of but never an under age child

i never had the first idea that there was so much of this goin on in the north thought it was in bkk pattaya phuket and so on

maybe i was kidding myself but im a little shocked theres so much of it here

i love thailand but the longer im here the less i like the people selling a child into the sex trade for a few baht

and monks being involved my eyes have been opened to just how morally corrupt this place is and the kids that have contracted aids heart breaking

the world is watching you thailand pull your act together not that thailand has ever given a toss what every one els thinks

and i wounder what happed to that guy in cm in the video with all those kids in his house i hope he got locked up and not given the famous get out of jail free card

if you pay i never drink in the day but think ill have one now

[ESB7]

As long as parents keep sending their 14 year old daughters to go and work in the sex trade while they sit at home drinking nothing will ever change......

[sarahsbloke]

Granted, we should not ignore child prostitution/sex abuse if we see it, but I haven't seen any of it, and to the best of my knowledge no one I know is involved in it. For obvious reasons I'm not going to go looking for it. While I'm all for ending the appalling business and doing whatever it takes to keep adults from harming children, what do you expect the expat who isn't a pervert to do?

I agree

This really a topic that has nothing to do with an expat forum.

What Thais get up to is totally out of our control.

Posting it in this forum is just a waste of everyones time.

Edited May 25, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[lukeskywalker]

I have a very trusted friend who holds a high position at a prominent uni here in CM and is from the Koran (sp?) Hill Tribes. He related a story to me about how he wishes he and his department could do something to stop the selling of the children in the hill tribe (and Thai) villages in the area. When he told me the details of how someone would come into the village and just simply buy some of the children, and then the village throws a party to celebrate the event! As a Westerner, I was floored that it was so blatant. I honestly thought he was joking or talking about an isolated incident. Since then, sadly, I've learned that it is a common occurrence. This is first hand knowledge from a person who has witnessed it personally.

I do have one question though, I have heard that in other countries the "buyer" promises the family a good life for the child by giving them a good job so that they can send money home each month, blah, blah. But come on, these parents have to know by now the truth.

Side note: How one can look at a child and feel aroused is, to me, a harder (forgive the pun) thing to figure out than how a mother can sell her children.

Side note 2: Just saw a headline on CNN: A lady in the USA is in jail for trying to sell her daughter's virginity for $10,000. But, at least these crimes are being investigated and prosecuted.

[Amras]

Granted, we should not ignore child prostitution/sex abuse if we see it, but I haven't seen any of it, and to the best of my knowledge no one I know is involved in it. For obvious reasons I'm not going to go looking for it. While I'm all for ending the appalling business and doing whatever it takes to keep adults from harming children, what do you expect the expat who isn't a pervert to do?

I agree

This really a topic that has nothing to do with an expat forum.

What Thais get up to is totally out of our control.

Posting it in this forum is just a waste of everyones time.

I don't think that's necessarily correct.

The original CNN report was discussing foreigners in Thailand (specifically CM) doing it (and not Thia's), hence why the discussion started.

This is a forum and forums are for discussion and it relates to CM.

If people don't want to be a part of it, it's easy to skip this topic and read the next in the CM list.

While it might be out of our control, a few people are trying to do something about it and the greater the awareness the better the possibility that something may eventual be done about it.

As others have said, ignoring it doesn't make it go away. And there is no harm in discussing something that is happening in the city in which we live.