Raising Beef Cattle In Issan

[Issangeorge]

I know, do a search, well I have and either the information I’m looking for is not there or there is conflicting information. What I would like to know is how large a Thai cow and a Braham cow can get. In these forums I have read as large as 1,000 kilos for a Braham cow, but from other research I have done this seems high. I would also like to know if anyone has recent knowledge of the price of cows and does anyone know the average age of Thai or Braham cows when they are sent to market. Also what is the average saleable meat yield? I would also be interested in the average selling price of cows when sold for beef, and anything else one can tell me about raising beef cattle in Issan. Thank you Issangeorge

[chownah]

I'm planning on getting a couple of cows when I have everything ready for them so I've been casuslly learning a bit here and a bit there about how its done. One thing to remember is that there are sort of two different approaches.

The traditional approach, like what is done in my village by the local small time rice farmers, is to have an enclosure with a roof to keep them in when it rains. In the rice season (wet season) they are grazed along the klongs and roads and anyother piece of land that is not planted to rice or other crops....and people go and cut grasses and haul them to the cows if there is not enough graze during the rainy season within a reasonable distance. In this traditional method the cows are more or less permanently sent out to graze during the dry season...either with someone watching them constantly or being staked and moved 3 or 4 times per day. Using this method it takes over two years for a cow to reach market weight.

The second method is to keep the cows in an enclosure and to provide them with grass and straw by cut and carry and to supplement their diet with highly nutritious supplements often called 'concentrate'.....concentrate is high protein and digestible carbohydrate. With this method a cow is usually at market weight at or before it is two years old.

It is my understanding that some breeds and breed mixes are more economical when raised by one method and some are more economical when raised with the other. A cow sent out to pasture must be more resistant to diseases and maintain appetite when hot.... Cows that exercise more (walk in and out of the pasture every day a distance that may be a couple of kilometers or more round trip and walk around grazing all day) will gain weight more slowly and their meat will be leaner.

Anyway, I'm no expert in this stuff but just want to indicate that you are actually asking a really big set of questions that are affected by a lot of stuff.

[trt]

I know, do a search, well I have and either the information I’m looking for is not there or there is conflicting information. What I would like to know is how large a Thai cow and a Braham cow can get. In these forums I have read as large as 1,000 kilos for a Braham cow, but from other research I have done this seems high. I would also like to know if anyone has recent knowledge of the price of cows and does anyone know the average age of Thai or Braham cows when they are sent to market. Also what is the average saleable meat yield? I would also be interested in the average selling price of cows when sold for beef, and anything else one can tell me about raising beef cattle in Issan. Thank you Issangeorge

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1,000kg isn't out of the question.. however depends on its diet and how well you feed the thing..

conversion is usually around 50 - 60% beef per cow.

If you want them to gain weight then keep them cool and keep them in a small yard so they can't walk around much

Average age would be around 24-36 months when they are sent to market..

[ray23]

I know, do a search, well I have and either the information I’m looking for is not there or there is conflicting information. What I would like to know is how large a Thai cow and a Braham cow can get. In these forums I have read as large as 1,000 kilos for a Braham cow, but from other research I have done this seems high. I would also like to know if anyone has recent knowledge of the price of cows and does anyone know the average age of Thai or Braham cows when they are sent to market. Also what is the average saleable meat yield? I would also be interested in the average selling price of cows when sold for beef, and anything else one can tell me about raising beef cattle in Issan. Thank you Issangeorge

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1,000kg isn't out of the question.. however depends on its diet and how well you feed the thing..

conversion is usually around 50 - 60% beef per cow.

If you want them to gain weight then keep them cool and keep them in a small yard so they can't walk around much

Average age would be around 24-36 months when they are sent to market..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thai French Beef has a co-op in Sukunakorn, takes someone who speaks to Thai with you and you should be able to get most of your questions answered. This is the highest qaulity beef raised in Thailand that I know and bring back better sale prices.

The reason you see so much confliciting information on those subject, it is not as simple as one would think Good Luck it's still a posible project for me. But I'm waiting to see what the numbers are when a friend of mine who is a member of the Co-Op makes his first sale. That is the proof in the pudding not what is said.

[bdenner]

This subject was pretty well covered here. Thai French Beef. They have some very good student information books available on how they developed their breading stock at the Sakon Nakhon stud.

[bannork]

Last week I took a trip with the wife to the Sakhon Nakon co-op referred to, co-op members must sell to the co-op,outsiders can buy but not sell to the co-op, I forget how many members they have now,9 or 11,000, unfortunately they're not accepting anymore.

A 500 kilo cow from the co-op, 4 months pregnant, cost 30,000 baht plus. The problem I see for non members is finding buyers. We're in Bandung, there's a weekly market every Tuesday, most of the cows are either the middle to large size brahmin, fetching anything from 18,000 to 25,000 baht, depending if with calf; or the smaller brown Thai cows going from 8,000 to 12,000 baht. I'm not sure if it would be easy to find buyers for the Charolais breeds here in Bandung, but I hope I'm wrong!

bannork

[ray23]

Last week I took a trip with the wife to the Sakhon Nakon co-op referred to, co-op members must sell to the co-op,outsiders can buy but not sell to the co-op, I forget how many members they have now,9 or 11,000, unfortunately they're not accepting anymore.

A 500 kilo cow from the co-op, 4 months pregnant, cost 30,000 baht plus. The problem I see for non members is finding buyers. We're in Bandung, there's a weekly market every Tuesday, most of the cows are either the middle to large size brahmin, fetching anything from 18,000 to 25,000 baht, depending if with calf; or the smaller brown Thai cows going from 8,000 to 12,000 baht. I'm not sure if it would be easy to find buyers for the Charolais breeds here in Bandung, but I hope I'm wrong!

bannork

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Along those lines if Thai cattle is the route you go there is a auction just outside of Udon each week a bit of modification to a pickup would get you to market. My undertanding to the coop is catching it at the rigth time and that would around membership renewal time. Which should be coming up fairly soon. These cattle you need the right source to sell to or you will lose money. Part of the key to the price they bring at sale is the feeding method and that would only profit you if semeone understands they are buying a different qaulity meat. The friend that is in the coop is visiting Udon today I don't know if I will see him or not, if I do I will ask him about membership renewal

[kenk3z]

Is there any such thing going on in Thailand to grow corn to feed cattle? Or is it all grass feeding?

(purely an academic question - in no way will I be your competition )

kenk3z

[chownah]

Is there any such thing going on in Thailand to grow corn to feed cattle?  Or is it all grass feeding?

(purely an academic question - in no way will I be your competition )

kenk3z

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look at post #2 in this thread.....concentrate can contain corn.

[ray23]

Is there any such thing going on in Thailand to grow corn to feed cattle?  Or is it all grass feeding?

(purely an academic question - in no way will I be your competition )

kenk3z

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The co op cattle that is being spoken of are feed lot cattle the same thing your talking about hence expensive operation and better qaulity beeef

[Buff-horns]

arent you worried about cattle rustlers ? then you will have to get up a possee and chase them back over the border !

[kenk3z]

When you're talking about "high protein concentrate" it's not the remains of other animals is it? Mad cow disease?

Is there anywhere to selectively buy beef from only corn-fed or feed-lot cattle? Some brand name or location?

The only beef I've had so far in Thailand was tough enough to make into a boot.

kenk3z

[banpaeng]

YOu are a little off on what you ask for Ken. What you are looking for is all natural, drug and hormone free beef. If a cow if fed all corn they will die. Need a bit of other grain. If a calf has been fed in a feed lot he most likely is getting hormones and drugs for sure to prevent diesese. I would prefer a free range beef finished in an all natural feed lot. If processed correctly and cooked properly, it should be some of the best beef you have eaten.

My only source of information is reading, there is not anythong like that in Thailand. The mardet is growing rapidly here in the states. Don't think the increased cost would work in Thailand. I could be wrong.

[chownah]

When you're talking about "high protein concentrate" it's not the remains of other animals is it?  Mad cow disease?

Is there anywhere to selectively buy beef from only corn-fed or feed-lot cattle?  Some brand name or location?

The only beef I've had so far in Thailand was tough enough to make into a boot. 

kenk3z

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Concentrate can contain a lot of different things just so long as the result is a feed that enables rapid growth and meat deveopment....high protein and digestable carbohydrates primarily. I don't know where you might find corn fed beef. I don't know if animal products are used in concentrate in Thailand but I do know that very often they are not used.

[ray23]

When you're talking about "high protein concentrate" it's not the remains of other animals is it?  Mad cow disease?

Is there anywhere to selectively buy beef from only corn-fed or feed-lot cattle?  Some brand name or location?

The only beef I've had so far in Thailand was tough enough to make into a boot. 

kenk3z

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can buy imported beef here from Australia. New Zealand, the only local brand that I know of is Thai French Beef. These can be found at Lotus, Macro, AND Tops and sometimes in Big C. In Udon we have two local butcher shops that handle Thai French Beef. Shopping here is very different in the states unless you want Thai food that can found everywhere

Just about any of the foods you are used to are here, the trick is finding them. Bangkok and the tourist areas it's farly easy Issan takes a bit of searching and asking around.

[Trebek]

In south Texas they came up with an excellent breed called a Santa Gertrudis. It was bred to withstand the hot humid conditions of the area. Are there any breeders in Thailand that raise these cattle.

http://www.king-ranch.com/cattle.htm

[fxm88]

When you're talking about "high protein concentrate" it's not the remains of other animals is it?  Mad cow disease?

Sorry, I cannot tell you what's in the "high protein concentrate", but I can tell you that they ship a lot of it in from Pattaya.

[RamdomChances]

As chownah said on an earlier post, cattle here are usually reared one of two ways.

1. "Free Range" or what most of us would call free range, these are the people that actually raise cows, they will have mainly female cows and calfs, which are taken out and grazed on anything really but not usually fed much if any consentrate. A couple of times a year they will get their "surplus cows" take them to market and sell them to the "feed lot" operators.

2. "feed lot" they dont usually raise cattle, but buy in slightly immature cattle from the free range people, these are then kept pened, and feed either rice straw or hand cut grass along with concentrate food, the better the "forrage" you feed them the lower your concentrate costs will be. They will probably be injected with anti parasite drugs (the free range usually are'nt) and then fattened up for 3-4 months and sold on for meat, you cant sell for meat until 45 days after the anti parasite injections, depending on which ones you use, as far as I am aware there are no growth hormones currently used here, mabye some of the really big farms use them, but I've never come across it and I have links and cataloges of most of the big vetenary suppliers here in Thailand.

Consentrate food is made from a mix of localy avalible products and as far as I know does not contain the remains of other animals (well excluding fish meal). The "protien" part is usually provided with soya, fish meal or some other high protien nut type product along with a variety of other things (corn, casava, sohgram). These are the things that provide the protien and carb part of the food but are expensive to buy, the "bulk" of the food is then provided from a variety of by-products form various sources (ground corn husks, rice husks, brewers grains) which are cheap to buy but contain little actual food value. The result is either a powder or pellets that have a protien content of around 18% and cost about 5-6 bhat/kg. We actaully used to make our own and I have a few recipies for differet mixes for different protien contents, making you own drops the price down to around 3-4 bhat/kg (we dont do it now as the quantities would just be to difficult to handle).

The "free rang" people make their money from actally raising the cows and the feed lot by adding the weight allthough some farms combine the two. Free range you need some land for grazing, and someone who has the time to take the cows out looking for grass and to look after them while they are eating it, they are usually just fed rice straw in the hot/cold seasons when there is nothing growing, they will try to sell their bull cows at around 12-16 months and look to buy in female cows preferably pregnant.

The "feed lot " people look to buy in 12-16 month bulls and then keep them for 3-4 months of fattening up, usually penned and all the food is brought to them, as a general rule of thumb for "thai" cattle you woud be paying around 1000 bhat per month of age (i.e a 12 month 12,000 bhat ect). The dificulty of making money from feed lot comes from knowing the market and knowing how to feed them for maximum weight gain against cost, the margins are pretty tight so if you end up paying even a 1000 bhat over the odds you would be making a large cut into your profits (I've been told about 2000-3000 bhat profit a cow over a 3 month period).

There are local beef cattle markets virtually everywhere and a lot of trading goes on farm to farm, the bigger markets you need to get there early, even the night before in some cases, until you know the market well you will need someone with LOT's of experiance with you or you will end up buying at a price that will leave you litttle profit.

There are more and more farms doing Charolaise/Brahmin crosses its not someting I've gone into in a lot of detail, but they seem to mainly deal with agents rather than buying and selling on the markets.

I recon a 1000kg Bramin is possible I'v seen a few at some of the shows that make mine seem small and some of mine are 600 kg (although thats friesian crosses)

RC

[banpaeng]

Thanks Random Chances. That was a through and correct reply. Very interesting.

[RamdomChances]

Just a bit on the "corn fed" cows. I'm pretty sure that in the states and europe they grow "forage corn" and the cow is fed the whole plant, either just chopped up or made into silage. I dont know weather this would make it a "corn fed" cow or not really....there is probably some legal defination of it. I would of thought that you would have to feed some concentrate as well thought just to get the protien levels up, but I'm not an expert on feeding beef cows.

RC

[fxm88]

Just a bit on the "corn fed" cows. I'm pretty sure that in the states and europe they grow "forage corn" and the cow is fed the whole plant, either just chopped up or made into silage. I dont know weather this would make it a "corn fed" cow or not really....there is probably some legal defination of it. I would of

"Corn fed beef" is almost a euphemism. In the States, and maybe Europe, corn is highly subsidized so it's cheap. It's also easy to transport and high in calories. If not for the cheap corn it would never be fed to cows. I don't know if corn is similarly subsidized in Thailand. Maybe rice could be used instead. In any case, corn or any grain is hard on the digestive tracts of animals evolved to eat grass so lots of antibiotics must be mixed in with the feed to control the overgrowth of bacteria. Some gourmets prefer the taste of grass fed beef.

[chownah]

I was just reading about corn fed beef in Canada and in the study I was reading they fed corn silage and rolled corn grain. One feed regimen they used was 70% corn grain and 15% corn silage...didn't say what the other 15% was. Also they studied using rolled barley grain in place of the rolled corn grain and found that it really didn't make much difference in any way including taste, texture, percent fat, size, marbling,etc,etc....a very thorough study it seems. I forgot to copy the link but I'm sure if you googled abit you could find it....I think it was Ontario corn fed beef.

[Issangeorge]

Thanks to everyone who has replied, I am getting some good information. Please keep adding new info, and does anyone know how much average weight gain can be expected with a suppliment diet? Thanks Issangeorge

[chownah]

Thanks to everyone who has replied, I am getting some good information. Please keep adding new info, and does anyone know how much average weight gain can be expected with a suppliment diet? Thanks Issangeorge

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Google "corn fed beef ontario" and you will find lots of information including average weight gain.

[Issangeorge]

I know, do a search, well I have and either the information I’m looking for is not there or there is conflicting information. What I would like to know is how large a Thai cow and a Braham cow can get. In these forums I have read as large as 1,000 kilos for a Braham cow, but from other research I have done this seems high. I would also like to know if anyone has recent knowledge of the price of cows and does anyone know the average age of Thai or Braham cows when they are sent to market. Also what is the average saleable meat yield? I would also be interested in the average selling price of cows when sold for beef, and anything else one can tell me about raising beef cattle in Issan. Thank you Issangeorge

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1,000kg isn't out of the question.. however depends on its diet and how well you feed the thing..

conversion is usually around 50 - 60% beef per cow.

If you want them to gain weight then keep them cool and keep them in a small yard so they can't walk around much

Average age would be around 24-36 months when they are sent to market..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thai French Beef has a co-op in Sukunakorn, takes someone who speaks to Thai with you and you should be able to get most of your questions answered. This is the highest qaulity beef raised in Thailand that I know and bring back better sale prices.

The reason you see so much confliciting information on those subject, it is not as simple as one would think Good Luck it's still a posible project for me. But I'm waiting to see what the numbers are when a friend of mine who is a member of the Co-Op makes his first sale. That is the proof in the pudding not what is said.

Ray it has been over a year now, did you ever hear from your friend and how he did? Thanks, Issangeorge.

[Maizefarmer]

ISSANGEORGE - you are raising questions regards types of cows and their respective attributes that have been well covered in earlier threads on the Farming forum.

Go to the main Farming forum page - and then scroll back a few pages and you will find a number of threads with titles that have to do with cattle types, cows breeds and simlar subjects - everything you are asking now is very well covered in those threads - very well covered.

Tim

Edited October 24, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Issangeorge]

Tim, thank you, I have read all the farming forum pages, if you noticed this thread was started in Oct. 2005 and I was just going over it and noticed that Ray had posted about a friend of his who was selling to Thai French Beef Company, and I was just interested if in the last year he had heard how his friend was making out. Issangeorge.

[Maizefarmer]

ISSAANGEORGE - if it helps here is a list of threads on the Farming Forum which I would reccomend you read through:

Page 3 Corn Silage

Page 4 Brahman

Farming in Isaan

What are/is Indigenous Thai Cattle

Thai Native Cattle

Alfafa

Advise Please re: Farming in Isaan

Page 5

Beet Cattle

Ensiled Cassava Leaves

Page 6 Farming In Isaan (page 5 onwards – very good thread lots of pages)

..... but still please feel free to ask questions - I'm more than happy to help you where I can.

Tim

Edited October 25, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[bannork]

A couple of queries regarding beef cattle.

Is feeding salt licks bad for pregnant cows? My brother-in-law thinks so.

Is a 12 volt electric wire fence a feasible option for beef cows and has anyone seen them for sale? My sister-in-law is convinced it sterilises the cows.

Thanking any respondents in advance.

Bannork.

[Maizefarmer]

Bannork

Neg - no truth in either of those statements - pretty much old wives tales.

What I will say about the "salt lick" is this: there is little benefit in giving cattle in Thailand a salt lick. Rather, invest in a mineral lick - which will be a solidified lick containing not only salt, but a whole load of different minerals. In the case of pregnant cattle the addition of trace copper (which is not always in licks) is very beneficial. I would suggest 3000mg per kg of lick.

Other trace elements are an aded benefit.

In fact lick's are not difficult to manufacture or make at home - they are well within the DIY scope of things you can do your self. You just need to get hold of all the basic elements, mix them up accordingly, cook them and let it harden.

It anyone wants some recipes then I will post them on the forum for all to see.

Electric fences - no, sterality is not a problem - cattle quickly learn to stay back from them.

Actualy the only part of it that is 12 v is the battery or power supply. The electricity in the actual fence runs into the thousands' of volts - the 12 volts is boosted to what high voltage is used ( in some cases 6000v can be used) and the current (amperage ) is dropped down to a few miiliamps by way of a coil (like a small transformer) and or small capacitor. Also note that it is not running continuosly. There circuitry used to control the "electric fence" will pulse on and off on a rgular basis

Yes - you can buy them in Thailand - I will post some dealer addresses on the forum for al lto see, but you may also like to go round to your nearby agricultural supply store. THey will pull a catalouge out from undertneath the counter which will list them from Baht 500 to up around Baht 3000 - the only differance really been the length of the fence that can be powered. So check what length of fence you will need to power when you decide which model to purchase.

Baht 1000 should by you once that comes with around 200 meters electric fence (basically a multistarnd wire to carry the current).

The other thing you may wish to be certain of before committing yourself to any particular model is will it run off a 12 volt battery (e.g. car or tractor battery) and/or will it run off the mains AC power supply. Ensure that whatever you buy is suitable for your purposes.

And lastly - if you are going to be leaving the control box outside (I have never had one stolen) its a watertight box - better still , even if it is , wrapped it up and a plastic shopping bag - if rain gets inside the control box it pretty much wastes all the electronics.

Tim