Restrictions On Thai National Owning Land

[maloyd1]

My wife is a Thai National but is deaf/dumb and reads and writes very little. We are in her home town of Sobbong, Phusang and we want to have family land transfered into her name on the Chanote so we can build a house. Relatives say that because she is classed as an invilid she cannot have her name on the land title. They have said that our children who are 3 years and 2 years could own the land but as they are British Nationals like myself I see that being a no go.

Can anyone give me advice on this subject as we will not build a house unless the land is firmly owned by either my wife or the kids.

[Trembly]

I find it hard to believe that such a law can be extended to cover your wife, who I presume is fully compos mentis.

In the event that your wife cannot own the land a solution would be to put the land into the name of a relative with the express purpose of transferring it to your children when they turn 20, a practice known in Thai as 'hanging' a name on the chanote. It is fool proof it it is correctly notarised by a lawyer and witnessed a suitably senior and authoritative pillar of society - I'd recommend a judge, police, some level of public representative from the village headman upwards.

This would of course require your children to have Thai citizenship . . . for the love of the little critters sort it out!

Good luck.

Edit : You do know that Thailand now allows dual citizenship don't you?

Edited July 10, 2011 by Trembly

[samran]

I find it hard to believe that such a law can be extended to cover your wife, who I presume is fully compos mentis.

In the event that your wife cannot own the land a solution would be to put the land into the name of a relative with the express purpose of transferring it to your children when they turn 20, a practice known in Thai as 'hanging' a name on the chanote. It is fool proof it it is correctly notarised by a lawyer and witnessed a suitably authoritative pillar of society (judge, police, some level of public representative from the village headman upwards).

This would of course require your children to have Thai citizenship . . . for the love of the little critters sort it out!

Good luck.

Edit : You do know that Thailand now allows dual citizenship don't you?

Well the kids would automatically be Thai citizens, due to one parent being a Thai citizen.

If they were born in Thailand, then their Thai birth certificates will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

If born outside of Thailand, they'll need to have the Thai embassy in the country they were born in issue them Thai birth certificates, which again will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

Either way, they are due all the rights of other Thai citizens, regardless of the fact that they may also be British citizens.

[Trembly]

I find it hard to believe that such a law can be extended to cover your wife, who I presume is fully compos mentis.

In the event that your wife cannot own the land a solution would be to put the land into the name of a relative with the express purpose of transferring it to your children when they turn 20, a practice known in Thai as 'hanging' a name on the chanote. It is fool proof it it is correctly notarised by a lawyer and witnessed a suitably authoritative pillar of society (judge, police, some level of public representative from the village headman upwards).

This would of course require your children to have Thai citizenship . . . for the love of the little critters sort it out!

Good luck.

Edit : You do know that Thailand now allows dual citizenship don't you?

Well the kids would automatically be Thai citizens, due to one parent being a Thai citizen.

If they were born in Thailand, then their Thai birth certificates will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

If born outside of Thailand, they'll need to have the Thai embassy in the country they were born in issue them Thai birth certificates, which again will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

Either way, they are due all the rights of other Thai citizens, regardless of the fact that they may also be British citizens.

Exactly.

[InterestedObserver]

Classed as an invalid (incompetent) by who, the Thai courts? If she is legally not mentally competent to conduct her affairs, such as own land, then how did you get married? Something is not right here. I'd do some checking into the facts. The Thai children can most certainly own land in their name(s).

Edited July 10, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[thaiwanderer]

OP - with regard to your wife you should refer to sections 28 to 36 of the Civil and Commercial Code.

This deals with persons being incompetent, quasi-incompetent, of unsound mind and being incapable of managing their own affairs (including due to physical infirmity amongst other things).

I suspect your wife would not fall into any of these but advice should be sought rather than asuming she does, having the land in the children's names and the consequent restrictions.

If a Thai wife were adjudged incompetent etc might it be possible for her foreign husband to administer her affairs as curator?

[maloyd1]

I find it hard to believe that such a law can be extended to cover your wife, who I presume is fully compos mentis.

In the event that your wife cannot own the land a solution would be to put the land into the name of a relative with the express purpose of transferring it to your children when they turn 20, a practice known in Thai as 'hanging' a name on the chanote. It is fool proof it it is correctly notarised by a lawyer and witnessed a suitably authoritative pillar of society (judge, police, some level of public representative from the village headman upwards).

This would of course require your children to have Thai citizenship . . . for the love of the little critters sort it out!

Good luck.

Edit : You do know that Thailand now allows dual citizenship don't you?

Well the kids would automatically be Thai citizens, due to one parent being a Thai citizen.

If they were born in Thailand, then their Thai birth certificates will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

If born outside of Thailand, they'll need to have the Thai embassy in the country they were born in issue them Thai birth certificates, which again will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

Either way, they are due all the rights of other Thai citizens, regardless of the fact that they may also be British citizens.

Many thanks to all for your contributions.

Kids were born in the UK and at the moment I have to pay for a visa for them every year.

To obtain the Thai Birth certificates do I have to go to the Thai Embassy in the UK or can it be done by post?

My wife is very brite and fully compos mentis considering her lack of education due to loosing her hearing at the age of 2. I suspect it is the family hearing things about other people in far worse circumstances that has triggered the belief that she cannot have her name in the Land Title or at least I hope that is the situation.

Will check on Civil & Commercial Code.

Mal.

[InterestedObserver]

Many thanks to all for your contributions.

Kids were born in the UK and at the moment I have to pay for a visa for them every year.

To obtain the Thai Birth certificates do I have to go to the Thai Embassy in the UK or can it be done by post?

My wife is very brite and fully compos mentis considering her lack of education due to loosing her hearing at the age of 2. I suspect it is the family hearing things about other people in far worse circumstances that has triggered the belief that she cannot have her name in the Land Title or at least I hope that is the situation.

Will check on Civil & Commercial Code.

Mal.

Just check if there ever was a Thai court case to declare your wife incompetent. No court case = No problem = All rubbish from family. The children really should have Thai birth certificates and passports.

Edited July 10, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[wolf5370]

I find it hard to believe that such a law can be extended to cover your wife, who I presume is fully compos mentis.

In the event that your wife cannot own the land a solution would be to put the land into the name of a relative with the express purpose of transferring it to your children when they turn 20, a practice known in Thai as 'hanging' a name on the chanote. It is fool proof it it is correctly notarised by a lawyer and witnessed a suitably authoritative pillar of society (judge, police, some level of public representative from the village headman upwards).

This would of course require your children to have Thai citizenship . . . for the love of the little critters sort it out!

Good luck.

Edit : You do know that Thailand now allows dual citizenship don't you?

Well the kids would automatically be Thai citizens, due to one parent being a Thai citizen.

If they were born in Thailand, then their Thai birth certificates will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

If born outside of Thailand, they'll need to have the Thai embassy in the country they were born in issue them Thai birth certificates, which again will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

Either way, they are due all the rights of other Thai citizens, regardless of the fact that they may also be British citizens.

Many thanks to all for your contributions.

Kids were born in the UK and at the moment I have to pay for a visa for them every year.

To obtain the Thai Birth certificates do I have to go to the Thai Embassy in the UK or can it be done by post?

My wife is very brite and fully compos mentis considering her lack of education due to loosing her hearing at the age of 2. I suspect it is the family hearing things about other people in far worse circumstances that has triggered the belief that she cannot have her name in the Land Title or at least I hope that is the situation.

Will check on Civil & Commercial Code.

Mal.

If your wife is on their British Birth Certs as mother and she has a Thai ID card, then you can get them Thai Birth Certs here and then Thai passports (so you can take them out on their British ones and back on their Thai ones). I was in the same boat a few years ago with my two British born Anglo-Thai girls. Not a problem. You and your wife will have to go and the younger kids will have their finger prints taken (I think you have to be 10 to give a signature) - a few form - you will need to get the British Birth Certs translated probably - I'll check with my Mrs and asked what she did.

Whatever, anyway, if your wife has not been legally declared unable to perform her affairs, then she is constitutionally allowed to own land in her name as a Thai. Sounds like the family want to try and keep the land out of your family's hands to me - be careful.

[maloyd1]

OP - with regard to your wife you should refer to sections 28 to 36 of the Civil and Commercial Code.

This deals with persons being incompetent, quasi-incompetent, of unsound mind and being incapable of managing their own affairs (including due to physical infirmity amongst other things).

I suspect your wife would not fall into any of these but advice should be sought rather than asuming she does, having the land in the children's names and the consequent restrictions.

If a Thai wife were adjudged incompetent etc might it be possible for her foreign husband to administer her affairs as curator?

Wow...Just read the Civil & Commercial Code.

I now think my wife may have been declared incompetent when she was a young lady as she would not have been able to deal with her own affairs in relation to any inheritance she may have had when her father died. She was only 14 and her Step Mom would have had to deal with everything in her name. Very difficult to ask the family about this one. If that was the case we now have to get it overturned as she was competent enough to go out and work and to sign for our marriage in the UK etc..etc.

[maloyd1]

If your wife is on their British Birth Certs as mother and she has a Thai ID card, then you can get them Thai Birth Certs here and then Thai passports (so you can take them out on their British ones and back on their Thai ones). I was in the same boat a few years ago with my two British born Anglo-Thai girls. Not a problem. You and your wife will have to go and the younger kids will have their finger prints taken (I think you have to be 10 to give a signature) - a few form - you will need to get the British Birth Certs translated probably - I'll check with my Mrs and asked what she did.

Whatever, anyway, if your wife has not been legally declared unable to perform her affairs, then she is constitutionally allowed to own land in her name as a Thai. Sounds like the family want to try and keep the land out of your family's hands to me - be careful.

Hi Wolf5370. Let me know the the full procedure for getting the kids Thai passports. Need to know what docs need translating, Marriage Cirtificate, Birth Certificates, where to have them notorised, where to go to apply for passports etc..etc. Need all this myself as wife cannot help and I only do Thai Sign language with virtually no spoken Thai and family have limited English. Email it to save time a space on the forum if you want.

[InterestedObserver]

Wow...Just read the Civil & Commercial Code.

I now think my wife may have been declared incompetent when she was a young lady as she would not have been able to deal with her own affairs in relation to any inheritance she may have had when her father died. She was only 14 and her Step Mom would have had to deal with everything in her name. Very difficult to ask the family about this one. If that was the case we now have to get it overturned as she was competent enough to go out and work and to sign for our marriage in the UK etc..etc.

1. I cannot see the need to have a minor child declared incompetent. The person exercising parental power or guardian can legally conduct the affairs of the minor child.

2. Was your marriage ever registered at the local Amphur in Thailand or at the Royal Thai Embassy in UK?

Edited July 10, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[wolf5370]

If your wife is on their British Birth Certs as mother and she has a Thai ID card, then you can get them Thai Birth Certs here and then Thai passports (so you can take them out on their British ones and back on their Thai ones). I was in the same boat a few years ago with my two British born Anglo-Thai girls. Not a problem. You and your wife will have to go and the younger kids will have their finger prints taken (I think you have to be 10 to give a signature) - a few form - you will need to get the British Birth Certs translated probably - I'll check with my Mrs and asked what she did.

Whatever, anyway, if your wife has not been legally declared unable to perform her affairs, then she is constitutionally allowed to own land in her name as a Thai. Sounds like the family want to try and keep the land out of your family's hands to me - be careful.

Hi Wolf5370. Let me know the the full procedure for getting the kids Thai passports. Need to know what docs need translating, Marriage Certificate, Birth Certificates, where to have them notorised, where to go to apply for passports etc..etc. Need all this myself as wife cannot help and I only do Thai Sign language with virtually no spoken Thai and family have limited English. Email it to save time a space on the forum if you want.

I'll ask the Mrs and get back to you - she's away at the moment, but expect her to MSN me tomorrow night. You may want to raise another post in the Visa's forum too as others may have been through it more recently (or have copies of the forms).

This may help with regards to forms - its in English http://www.thaiembas....uk/?q=node/191

Passports are easy once you have Thai birth certificates.

Edited July 10, 2011 by wolf5370

[jombom]

I find it hard to believe that such a law can be extended to cover your wife, who I presume is fully compos mentis.

In the event that your wife cannot own the land a solution would be to put the land into the name of a relative with the express purpose of transferring it to your children when they turn 20, a practice known in Thai as 'hanging' a name on the chanote. It is fool proof it it is correctly notarised by a lawyer and witnessed a suitably authoritative pillar of society (judge, police, some level of public representative from the village headman upwards).

This would of course require your children to have Thai citizenship . . . for the love of the little critters sort it out!

Good luck.

Edit : You do know that Thailand now allows dual citizenship don't you?

Well the kids would automatically be Thai citizens, due to one parent being a Thai citizen.

If they were born in Thailand, then their Thai birth certificates will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

If born outside of Thailand, they'll need to have the Thai embassy in the country they were born in issue them Thai birth certificates, which again will attest to the fact that they are Thai citizens.

Either way, they are due all the rights of other Thai citizens, regardless of the fact that they may also be British citizens.

Exactly.

I also agree.

Also, may I suggest you familiarise yourself with the concept of usufruct or usurfruct. There are many threads about this on TV. Link for one below.

[wolf5370]

OP - with regard to your wife you should refer to sections 28 to 36 of the Civil and Commercial Code.

This deals with persons being incompetent, quasi-incompetent, of unsound mind and being incapable of managing their own affairs (including due to physical infirmity amongst other things).

I suspect your wife would not fall into any of these but advice should be sought rather than asuming she does, having the land in the children's names and the consequent restrictions.

If a Thai wife were adjudged incompetent etc might it be possible for her foreign husband to administer her affairs as curator?

Wow...Just read the Civil & Commercial Code.

I now think my wife may have been declared incompetent when she was a young lady as she would not have been able to deal with her own affairs in relation to any inheritance she may have had when her father died. She was only 14 and her Step Mom would have had to deal with everything in her name. Very difficult to ask the family about this one. If that was the case we now have to get it overturned as she was competent enough to go out and work and to sign for our marriage in the UK etc..etc.

Suggest you have a chat with a lawyer - if such an order exists (s/he will know where to check) then they can look at getting it overturned, shouldn't be too difficult if she has been an active mother and wife and manages to look after her own affairs now (and has you to attest to it). I doubt that it was anything more than a care order (due to her being a minor and not having affairs of her own anyway!), so probably expired when she reached 18 or 20 anyway.

Can I ask - just being nosey - what language do the kids speak if you speak no Thai and your wife is mute?

[Mrjlh]

Almost sounds like the family is trying to provide an excuse for them getting the land. Think about it for a minute. Why would they tell you this if you married her without permission? I wouldn't put it pass them to try. Like it was suggested, go see a lawyer but don't tell anyone. It's really your business and not the families. Then you and her will know where you two stand. It's cheap insurance in the long run.

[samran]

Sounds like Wolf5370 has somehow gotten his overseas born kids Thai birth certificates that were issued in Thailand. I didn't realise this was possible.(There have been a few posters in the past who suggested this wasn't possible)

My advice has been that their birth certificates has to be issued by the embassy in the country they were born in. In your kids case, the Thai embassy in London.

Fortunately this can be done by post - the instructions are on their website.

As wollf5370 said, it really is the most important document, as it is the one which states your kids are 'Thai'. With that in hand, you take the BC to the Ampur, where they'll be entered on the House Registration and have their I D numbers issued. They'll officially be in the Thai 'system' enabling them to do everthing a Thai citizen can do.

Then they can apply for Thai passports. All of this sounds harder than it actually is. Having been through it myself (for myself) it really isn't.

Unfortunately, they are in Thailand as UK citizens given you entered them on their UK passports. So their stay is subject to immigration rules. You have a couple of options.

- with their Thai birth certificates they will automatcially be given 12month extensions of stay in their UK passports. Immigration law allows current and former Thai citizens to be granted this visa in their foreign passports.

- next time they leave Thailand, they should be stamped out on their UK passports, and on return, enter on their Thai passport, giving them indefinite rights to stay. This can only be done by air as 'passport swaps' at land borders are generally impossible/quite difficult to get away with.

[maloyd1]

[suggest you have a chat with a lawyer - if such an order exists (s/he will know where to check) then they can look at getting it overturned, shouldn't be too difficult if she has been an active mother and wife and manages to look after her own affairs now (and has you to attest to it). I doubt that it was anything more than a care order (due to her being a minor and not having affairs of her own anyway!), so probably expired when she reached 18 or 20 anyway.

Can I ask - just being nosey - what language do the kids speak if you speak no Thai and your wife is mute?

The kids speak English and do sign language for the wife. They are both attending Thai school so they will pick up on the Thai language as they grow, only 3years and 2 years old.

I try to speak Thai but without a wife to bounce things off it is very difficult. I expect that as the kids start speakng Thai I will pick it up as well. Only been in Thailand 14 months so time will tell.

[Mario2008]

As has been said, the fact that she was a minor only meant that there was a legal guardian acting on her behalf. That stopped automatically when she became of age (21 years old).

It doesn't sound as she was declared mentally incompetent and has a legal guardian, for that there woud have been a court decision and a guardian appointed. It would also (in all probability) have meant that she would have needed permission of her guardian to get married or to get a passport.

Eeven if she is declared incompetent, she can still posses land etc in her name. It is only onder the supervision of her guardian and the guardian is (probablY0 under supervision of the court. Meaning there must be prior permission to sell land, etc. (At least that how it is with minors, the court must give permission for a gurdian to sell the land of a minor).

As has been pointed out, the children are Thai. They need to get a Thai birt certificate. As Samran said, it can be applied for by mail and I believe it is also possible to apply for it through the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs, consular section. (They send signed by you paperwork to London for you). http://www.consular.go.th/

[samran]

As has been said, the fact that she was a minor only meant that there was a legal guardian acting on her behalf. That stopped automatically when she became of age (21 years old).

It doesn't sound as she was declared mentally incompetent and has a legal guardian, for that there woud have been a court decision and a guardian appointed. It would also (in all probability) have meant that she would have needed permission of her guardian to get married or to get a passport.

Eeven if she is declared incompetent, she can still posses land etc in her name. It is only onder the supervision of her guardian and the guardian is (probablY0 under supervision of the court. Meaning there must be prior permission to sell land, etc. (At least that how it is with minors, the court must give permission for a gurdian to sell the land of a minor).

As has been pointed out, the children are Thai. They need to get a Thai birt certificate. As Samran said, it can be applied for by mail and I believe it is also possible to apply for it through the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs, consular section. (They send signed by you paperwork to London for you). http://www.consular.go.th/

You are right Mario. Learn something new every day...

Seems to be possible via the consular section of the Min of Foreign Affairs as you say.

Here is the link, in Thai

http://www.consular.go.th/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=236

Seems as if they can handle the paperwork for you to get your kids Birth Certificates while you are in Thailand.

[maloyd1]

1. I cannot see the need to have a minor child declared incompetent. The person exercising parental power or guardian can legally conduct the affairs of the minor child.

2. Was your marriage ever registered at the local Amphur in Thailand or at the Royal Thai Embassy in UK?

I will have to rattle a few cages to try to find the facts about my wifes possible incompetency declaration. Not looking forward to it as I may upset a few or a lot of the family.

The marriage has never been registered in Thailand or at the Thai Embassy in the UK.

This is something else I should have done before leaving the UK but without prior knowledge of the difficulties you may face when in Thailand I doubt if many People do the registration.

I have looked at the Thai Consulate site and allthough the Home page can be viewed in English when you go to the Consular Section it is all in Thai. When you click to change it to English you are switched back to the Home page.

Looked at the Thai Embassy in the UK and there is no mention of postal applications. Has anyone applied for Thai Birth Certificates via post to the Thai Embassy in the UK???

Before I go sending copies of Marriage Certificates etc off to the Consular Section or to the Thai Embassy in London I need to know about any fees I have to pay. Any clues on this point???

[Sunbelt Asia]

Every Thai has the same rights and being handicapped does not disqualify her rights to acquiring property. Since she is able to read and understand there would be no reason for her to be disqualified from owning land. If she was assigned a legal guardian during her minority then any guardianship would end upon reaching the age of majority.

You need to find out for certain what legal procedure was done at the age of 14 before moving ahead, but if it was a simple guardianship then it is no longer relevant and there should be no cause for her to not acquire land.

[sunbelt][/sunbelt]

[samran]

OP - as mentioned, the Consular Affairs dept IN BANGKOK can handle the paperwork that you need to get the BC issued. They'll send it to London on your behalf.

[maloyd1]

OP - as mentioned, the Consular Affairs dept IN BANGKOK can handle the paperwork that you need to get the BC issued. They'll send it to London on your behalf.

Hi Samran. I understand that the Consular Section can handle the BC issue. Are there any fees involved, do I need to send any return envelope (EMS), Is the form I fill out the same as the one issued by the Thai Embassy in the UK etc..etc..? The Consular site is in Thai only so I cannot read what is required.

[thaiwanderer]

Every Thai has the same rights and being handicapped does not disqualify her rights to acquiring property. Since she is able to read and understand there would be no reason for her to be disqualified from owning land. If she was assigned a legal guardian during her minority then any guardianship would end upon reaching the age of majority.

You need to find out for certain what legal procedure was done at the age of 14 before moving ahead, but if it was a simple guardianship then it is no longer relevant and there should be no cause for her to not acquire land.

[sunbelt][/sunbelt]

On a related point, are you aware of any restrictions (legal or how shall we say, 'practical') on a foreigner acting as guardian / curator for a minor / incompetent's affairs, specifically relevant to land ownership?

[samran]

OP - to be honest, it doesn't say. The main message is that they can do it.

Best bet is to look at the Thai Embassy website in the UK to get an idea of the requirements. Then take all the required docs to the consular office in BKK in person (if you haven't worked out, sometimes it is better to do things face to face in Thailand!).

My understanding is that the BC is free, and -if required- the EMS charge is minimal. I don't envisage that you'll out of pocket for every much! Most Thai govt services are pretty reasonable in cost. A Thai passport for instance is about 1000baht. Nothing to break the bank.

[InterestedObserver]

As an unrelated but very relevant issue what is your immigration status? You've been in Thailand for 14 months, what visa or extension of stay do you have?

Edited July 12, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[maloyd1]

As an unrelated but very relevant issue what is your immigration status? You've been in Thailand for 14 months, what visa or extension of stay do you have?

Here on a Marriage Visa. Lived in Udon Thani for first b12 months now settled albeit in a rented house in Sobbong Chiang Kham. Going back to Mae Sai tomorrow 13th July for a decision on my second year application.

[InterestedObserver]

As an unrelated but very relevant issue what is your immigration status? You've been in Thailand for 14 months, what visa or extension of stay do you have?

Here on a Marriage Visa. Lived in Udon Thani for first b12 months now settled albeit in a rented house in Sobbong Chiang Kham. Going back to Mae Sai tomorrow 13th July for a decision on my second year application.

Interesting since you have not registered your marriage in Thailand at the local Amphur. What Thai marriage document are you using to get an extension of stay from immigration?

[sbk]

You don't need a Thai marriage document, a translated copy of your original marriage certificate certified by the MFA is fine. Thailand recognizes overseas marriages as valid.