Property Transfer Problem?

[petercr]

I'm married to a Thai and in the process of purchasing a property in her sole name. Should be a simple process..........But

The property is owned (Maybe) by a Falang who at the time we had our offer accepted imformed us that:

(1) The land was held by his Thai lawyer (Nominee) under a lease agreement ......No annual lease payment was being made

(2) The house itself was supposed to be in the Falang name

After we started the due diligence process it turned out that:

- Neither the Falang or nomineee lawyer could produce a copy of the lease agreement

- The building was not registered in the Falang's name (This came as a surprise to the Falang vendor). It is now claimed the building is included under the lease agreement

- No building permit could be supplied (Note: The property is on a very up market development that is some 8yrs old so I am fairly relaxed about the permit issue and feel sure a duplicate can be obtained)

- No copy of the vendors orriginal purchase contract can be supplied

We have since requested that our deposit be returned until there is some clarity about this situation. Our lawyer simply says "Wait and see what documentation is provided"

Meantime the vendors lawyer (The Nominee) says "no problem we can sort this out" and claims to have given the necessary 30days notice of transfer to our local Land Office. I would appreciate any advice on this situation:

Is it usual for the building to be held by a Thai nominee together with the land under lease??

How can the vendors lawyer give 30 day transfer notice to the Land Office without the normal documentation to hand???

Is it usual for the building to be separately registered...If so where do we find the records of who owns the building

Does the building ownership issue matter if the land presently under lease is transferred (Freehold) to my wife's name

Thanks in advance

[InterestedObserver]

1. You need to get a look at the original Chanote to see just who owns the land and what encumbrances, if any, are registered on the back.

2. With no Chanote, lease agreement, building permit, sale agreement or construction contract, house registration documents to examine nobody can prove who owns what.

3. Are you taking over the lease or buying the property outright from the Chanote owner?

4. If you are buying the land outright then the lease should to be canceled beforehand.

5. A house can be owned separate from the land. A foreigner could build and own a house on leased land, done all the time.

6. The Land Office is where all the records are located.

7. Wait to see just what documents are provided.

Edited July 16, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[petercr]

1. You need to get a look at the original Chanote to see just who owns the land and what encumbrances, if any, are registered on the back.

2. With no Chanote, lease agreement, building permit, sale agreement or construction contract, house registration documents to examine nobody can prove who owns what.

3. Are you taking over the lease or buying the property outright from the Chanote owner?

4. If you are buying the land outright then the lease should to be canceled beforehand.

5. A house can be owned separate from the land. A foreigner could build and own a house on leased land, done all the time.

6. The Land Office is where all the records are located.

7. Wait to see just what documents are provided.

Thanks for your input

We intend to purchase the land which will be registered in my Thai wife's name and we understand the lease must be cancelled first. It seems the lawyer who acted for the vendor when he purchased has not been very efficient, neither did he follow the vendor's instructions during that purchase, namely:

To hold the land under a lease as a nominee

To register the house under the vendor's name

Problem now is that the lawyer is simply say everything will be ok when we transfer, but so far he has been unable/unwilling to provide any documentation

[InterestedObserver]

You say the lawyer holds the land lease, but who is the actual land owner as stated on the title deed (Chanote) and is the lease registered on the back? You seem to be saying that you are going to purchase the land from the lease holder, or am I missing something.

[Wallaby]

I no absolutely nothing about purchasing/selling land but from a layman's point of view...........

If the vendor's lawyer cannot provide the documents to you then what is he going to show the lands office to get things fixed? If he has the documents to fix it then why not show you.

I'd be very cautious, but as I said, this is purely from a layman's perspective with no experience in land sales.

[petercr]

You say the lawyer holds the land lease, but who is the actual land owner as stated on the title deed (Chanote) and is the lease registered on the back? You seem to be saying that you are going to purchase the land from the lease holder, or am I missing something.

Until we are provided with copies of the chanote/lease the whole situation is difficult to read...........That is my main concern. If I understand the vendor correctly, the nominee Thai Lawyer holds the Lease and therefore ownership of the land so I suppose we will be purchasing from the Lawyer. That arrangement seems quite common but what worries us all is that the lawyer has so far been unable to provide ANY documentation!!

[petercr]

I no absolutely nothing about purchasing/selling land but from a layman's point of view...........

If the vendor's lawyer cannot provide the documents to you then what is he going to show the lands office to get things fixed? If he has the documents to fix it then why not show you.

I'd be very cautious, but as I said, this is purely from a layman's perspective with no experience in land sales.

We intend to be very cautious thanks.................I'm not sure if there is anything to be concerned about in the vendor's previous arrangements with the lawyer or if the lawyer is just totaly ineffective. Whatever the reason if we do not have all the correct paperwork and ownership details available there will be no transfer

[wandrinstar]

The Lease is usually in the Ferangs name for safety's sake.On his death the Wife gets it anyway

[Burgernev]

Until we are provided with copies of the chanote/lease the whole situation is difficult to read...........That is my main concern. If I understand the vendor correctly, the nominee Thai Lawyer holds the Lease and therefore ownership of the land so I suppose we will be purchasing from the Lawyer. That arrangement seems quite common but what worries us all is that the lawyer has so far been unable to provide ANY documentation!!

I understand what you're saying about the 'nominee' lawyer, but without the absence of some concrete documentation from the farang, over and about the lease then I'd say as far as it makes no difference the Thai lawyer will always be 'ajudged' to be the landowner and lessor, rather than nominee. Just as an aside can a Thai actually be a 'nominee' when holding land for a farang to lease, I thought they had to hold it so a farang can 'acquire' the land, ie: Limited company/Thai wife' route where you 'can' have control over it!?

But re: your main points if you have a lawyer on board you shouldn't move forward another step (and should have paid a deposit really) until you have a copy of the land title, your lawyer will then go to the land office and carry out the neccessary checks... in under an hour...

1) House registration documents - there may not be any missing docs here as the normm is probably that 99.99% of houses in Thailand don't seperate land and house, I don't know any Thais that separate it. That would be fine and you can carry out registration during/after purchase. If never done there will be a larger tax liability though.

2) Building Permit - may not be an issue as 5kms from town centre in Hua Hin is outside Tessabaan area and they are not required. If it is in an area required then as part of the buying process I'd expect them to go to Tessabaan, pay the few grand required and get one.

3) Lease - the land office can tell your lawyer/Thai friend in 5 minutes if there was an officially registered one or not, they will have registered it and have a copy attached to their land office 'original copy' of the chanute on file. If there is one and it was lost/withheld by lawyer then they can get a copy, IF the lawyer never actually registered one... then the fireworks may start and I'd walk away at that point.

I'm not sure if there is anything to be concerned about in the vendor's previous arrangements with the lawyer or if the lawyer is just totaly ineffective.

I'd say your lawyer is the one who's been ineffective (if he was on board at the time) as you're behind at the moment due to the deposit being paid. It may ne difficult getting it back without a clear agreement on what docs they were to give you at deposit stage, and even then....

This is only my experiences in HH and they can be different depending on which lawyer or land office official you use.

Good luck,

Burgernev.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Burgernev

[JohnC]

With all these obstacles my own inclination would be to request return of deposit as they have failed to provide adequate proof of ownership and I would walk away, plenty of property on the market.

[Darrel]

Personally I would never pay even 1 Baht deposit to anyone before I see both sides of the chanote (not a photocopy) and get them translated by some totally disinterested third party.

There are just far too many crooks and spivs mixed up in deals that involve Thai property and farangs.

[eljeque]

Go to the land office with your wife.

Get a number.

When called, show a copy of the chinote (if you have one) and the sales agreement (must have the chinote number, not simply an address) to the land office employee. Tell them you want to see the original chinote and make copies of it.

You can get a copy of the building permit (if in Pattaya, at City Hall) or in most other cities at the Amphur's office or as another poster mentioned, at the Thesaban (Municipality Office) or they might be the same in some cities.

After your wife reads the back of the chinote, hen you will know where you stand. Is there a registered lease or not? Who is the actual owner?

Now look at your contract, if the actual owner did not sign the agreement, then it is, more or less fraud, as the signer has no right to sell anything.

If there is a lease to the Farang, then that is another issue.

If there is anything that does not seem right to you, then go to the police station and let them know that a non-owner tried to sell you property, and the police will call in the person who signed the contract. They will have to show what is going on, and or return your deposit , possibly based on not being able to get the paperwork straight, not by trying to commit fraud, which is fine, as long as you get your money back.

People get off their asses and do the right thing when they are in a police station.

Five years ago, I sold two houses, not yet completed, to a Thai woman who had lived in the USA for 16 years. She was nuts.

I had completed the 800,000 deposits, and there was an additional 1.5M left for the balance.

Prices were booming, and I sold the properties for 3.1M each. I was selling the right to complete the payments, take over the contract, and as her English was excellent, she understood everything.

She gave me a 100,000 deposit on each house. As she did not arrange to make the final payment in 30 days, she lost out. About 4 months later, after I sold one of the houses and had transferred the other one into a company, I received a call from the police to come on in and talk about my defrauding her!!

I went in the next day, showed all of my paperwork, and explained everything. They understood my side and allowed me to leave out the back with my passport and everything else, as the crazy woman was in the front part of the building.

If you feel that they cannot or will not provide all of the necessary documentation to your satisfaction, file a police report and the police will call them to come in and provide documentation.

You do not need a lawyer to do this, but if you already have one, take him along. The advantages of taking a Thai wife instead is that she will listen to you while your lawyer will always have his own agenda which may not be yours.

Best of luck to you.