Sor Por Kor & Usufruct

[monktao]

My Thai friend offered me to build my house on her Sor Por Kor Land.

She offered that I could stay there with my family for 10 years without paying any rent or buying anything.

After the 10 years, she could agree to let me on the land for another 10 years or not. If not, she will keep the house for her.

This is a non official agreement and I accepted because she offered her cousin to build the house (very cheap).

Finally the cousin couldn't do, too busy helping her parents who built also a house on her land, and I end up

finding a local contractor.

But as the construction cost multiplied by 5 compared to my first estimation, I fell sorry to have invested so much that my children couldn't inheritate.

Also developing a garden with trees takes time and when everything will be mature, after 10 years, then it would be time for me / us to leave.... with not really the energy to build something up again.

My question is could we arrange to get an usufruct for this land?

If not what are the possible legal options that we could considerate with my friend?

Thank you

[InterestedObserver]

Sor Por Kor land is basically for agriculture use only. Foreigners should stay well clear of this land because there is no title deed (Chanote); therefore, encumbrances such as a mortgage, lease, usufruct, or superficies cannot be registered against the land with the local Land Office. Your options are rather limited.

Edited August 20, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[monktao]

Sor Por Kor land is basically for agriculture use only. Foreigners should stay well clear of this land because there is no title deed (Chanote); therefore, encumbrances such as a mortgage, lease, usufruct, or superficies cannot be registered against the land with the local Land Office. Your options are rather limited.

Thank you InterestedObserver.

You say my options are limited, that implies not nul?

If so, has anyone suggestions about my options?

Thanks

[stgrhe]

All Sor Por Kor land are in process of being converted to chanots but it is a long process and it will probably take decades before all such titles have been converted. Also, once converted these land titles cannot be sold for a time of ten years if my memory is right. However, once converted there should be a possibility to register a usufruct.

What you could try is to see whether the converting process for this particular plot could in any way be given priority. It might be worth the extra cost. Why not call on the boss of the local land office and simply ask him or her for your options.

[monktao]

All Sor Por Kor land are in process of being converted to chanots but it is a long process and it will probably take decades before all such titles have been converted. Also, once converted these land titles cannot be sold for a time of ten years if my memory is right. However, once converted there should be a possibility to register a usufruct.

What you could try is to see whether the converting process for this particular plot could in any way be given priority. It might be worth the extra cost. Why not call on the boss of the local land office and simply ask him or her for your options.

Thanks stgrhe, that's an advice I will put into practice IF that will not put my Thai friend in difficulties as she may not be allowed to let me on her land and build a house.

Any knowledge about that? I don't want to put anyone into trouble. I love too much this country, its inhabitants and their culture.

If anyone has views on this I would listen carefully to them.

Thanks again.

[thunder30101]

Its already been said above this is agriculture land only, your usufruct lease or whatever you try will be worth nothing, if you wish to throw your money away go right ahead. Loving a country has nothing to do with it, just look at the land fiasco going on right now with all that sor por kor land in the national forests and those were wealthy thais who love their country. Wake up before your money is gone.

[canopy]

just look at the land fiasco going on right now with all that sor por kor land in the national forests

But are those areas actually sor por kor? I was under the impression the areas in question are truly inside the forest boundaries with no legal papers but illegal papers were forged.

[monktao]

Its already been said above this is agriculture land only, your usufruct lease or whatever you try will be worth nothing, if you wish to throw your money away go right ahead. Loving a country has nothing to do with it, just look at the land fiasco going on right now with all that sor por kor land in the national forests and those were wealthy thais who love their country. Wake up before your money is gone.

Thanks for your input Thunder30101.

I'm aware that as Fallang I couldn't own the land, now I'm aware that no legal contract can be establish (usufruct, superficie, lease) but my understanding was that houses could be built on a Sor Por Kor land to host the (Thai) people who exploit the land.

My Thai friend could well invite some fallang at time on her house situated on her Sor Por Kor land?That should be acceptable in regard to the law?

Could she make a Homestay on this land, the neigbourgh is on the process of doing that.

Edited August 23, 2011 by monktao

[steelepulse]

Why not walk away from this land and look for titled land where you can get a 30 year lease? Surely sor por kor land must be cheap, so walking away won't cost you much.

[InterestedObserver]

Its already been said above this is agriculture land only, your usufruct lease or whatever you try will be worth nothing, if you wish to throw your money away go right ahead. Loving a country has nothing to do with it, just look at the land fiasco going on right now with all that sor por kor land in the national forests and those were wealthy thais who love their country. Wake up before your money is gone.

Thanks for your input Thunder30101.

I'm aware that as Fallang I couldn't own the land, now I'm aware that no legal contract can be establish (usufruct, superficie, lease) but my understanding was that houses could be built on a Sor Por Kor land to host the (Thai) people who exploit the land.

My Thai friend could well invite some fallang at time on her house situated on her Sor Por Kor land?That should be acceptable in regard to the law?

Could she make a Homestay on this land, the neigbourgh is on the process of doing that.

What is a "Homestay"? I thought the OP was looking for security for his investment.

[meatboy]

Why not walk away from this land and look for titled land where you can get a 30 year lease? Surely sor por kor land must be cheap, so walking away won't cost you much.

with all thats going on at the moment,i wouldnt walk away,i would get a pair of those trainers that make you run much faster,there is so much good advice on tv

TAKE IT.

[monktao]

Why not walk away from this land and look for titled land where you can get a 30 year lease? Surely sor por kor land must be cheap, so walking away won't cost you much.

Well my house is almost finished, 2 months plus of work and 600.000 Baht plus invested in the structure... And I like the land, and I don't pay any lease nor did pay for the land... And I don't know what would be the cost of a lease elsewhere??

That's the reasons that creates the attachement to this land.

[monktao]

Could she make a Homestay on this land, the neigbourgh is on the process of doing that.

What is a "Homestay"? I thought the OP was looking for security for his investment.

I'm just looking for a place to live with my family in Thailand with interuptions due to visa runs and other external activities. An adobe.

Homestay seems to be a place where you can receive tourists to share your life in return of some money (that's my understanding so far, could be wrong).

[monktao]

Why not walk away from this land and look for titled land where you can get a 30 year lease? Surely sor por kor land must be cheap, so walking away won't cost you much.

with all thats going on at the moment,i wouldnt walk away,i would get a pair of those trainers that make you run much faster,there is so much good advice on tv

TAKE IT.

Unfortunatly, I don't watch TV....

[InterestedObserver]

Homestay seems to be a place where you can receive tourists to share your life in return of some money (that's my understanding so far, could be wrong).

I see, it's a guesthouse where the owner puts the money in his pocket and doesn't tell anybody.

[monktao]

Homestay seems to be a place where you can receive tourists to share your life in return of some money (that's my understanding so far, could be wrong).

I see, it's a guesthouse where the owner puts the money in his pocket and doesn't tell anybody.

Sorry, I have to explain it better for you to see better.

It's a Thai friend who offered me to build my house on her land for free, with a non official written agreement that I can stay there for 10 years whitout paying any rent. After the 10 years, she could renew the agreement or decide to keep the house for her.

She is a friend. She don't get any rent.

I don't rent my house, just live there from time to time.

But I have no guaranty and even not sure if what we do is legal. That's why I was thinking about her transforming my house into a place for tourists to rent even though I would be the only one into it. This way, legally, I could say that I rent this place although I don't. At least the authorities will regard this as something that is possible.

My concern is if her family members push her to realise that they are a priority and need the house for themself, she will say "now I have an emergency in my family and need the house for my family" and I will have to go as nothing bind us legally, just a non official written contract..

I accepted first the challenge as the house was not going to cost that much but finally cost 5 to six time what was expected at the begining.

So I told her my concern, she understand and we try to find a way to legalise our agreement although not sure about the options.

She expect also that one day the land will have title deeds and we could do a lease or usufruct or superficie but there is no guaranty this will happen in our life time and in between, we have to find an acceptable solution for all.

Edited August 23, 2011 by monktao

[meatboy]

Why not walk away from this land and look for titled land where you can get a 30 year lease? Surely sor por kor land must be cheap, so walking away won't cost you much.

with all thats going on at the moment,i wouldnt walk away,i would get a pair of those trainers that make you run much faster,there is so much good advice on tv

TAKE IT.

Unfortunatly, I don't watch TV....

YOUR ON

[InterestedObserver]

Sorry, I have to explain it better for you to see better.

It's a Thai friend who offered me to build my house on her land for free, with a non official written agreement that I can stay there for 10 years whitout paying any rent. After the 10 years, she could renew the agreement or decide to keep the house for her.

She is a friend. She don't get any rent.

It's perfectly clear to me. You have spent "600,000 baht plus" to date constructing a house on somebody else's Sor Por Kor agricultural land with no legally binding agreement for occupying either the land or the house. Does that about cover it?

Edited August 23, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[monktao]

Why not walk away from this land and look for titled land where you can get a 30 year lease? Surely sor por kor land must be cheap, so walking away won't cost you much.

with all thats going on at the moment,i wouldnt walk away,i would get a pair of those trainers that make you run much faster,there is so much good advice on tv

TAKE IT.

Unfortunatly, I don't watch TV....

YOUR ON

I rather prefer collecting my info from the kind and experienced souls haunting this forum than listen to what the TV say or show, even if I'm on.

[monktao]

Sorry, I have to explain it better for you to see better.

It's a Thai friend who offered me to build my house on her land for free, with a non official written agreement that I can stay there for 10 years whitout paying any rent. After the 10 years, she could renew the agreement or decide to keep the house for her.

She is a friend. She don't get any rent.

It's perfectly clear to me. You have spent "600,000 baht plus" to date constructing a house on somebody else's Sor Por Kor agricultural land with no legally binding agreement for occupying either the land or the house. Does that about cover it?

Yes, you got my point but I'm not sure I got yours when you say "Does that about cover it?"

Do you mind rephrasing it? (English is not my mother tongue)

Thanks for spending time here.

[monktao]

^ What he means with TV is Thai Visa and not Television

Thanks for the rectification

[InterestedObserver]

Sorry, I have to explain it better for you to see better.

It's a Thai friend who offered me to build my house on her land for free, with a non official written agreement that I can stay there for 10 years whitout paying any rent. After the 10 years, she could renew the agreement or decide to keep the house for her.

She is a friend. She don't get any rent.

It's perfectly clear to me. You have spent "600,000 baht plus" to date constructing a house on somebody else's Sor Por Kor agricultural land with no legally binding agreement for occupying either the land or the house. Does that about cover it?

Yes, you got my point but I'm not sure I got yours when you say "Does that about cover it?"

Do you mind rephrasing it? (English is not my mother tongue)

Thanks for spending time here.

Anything else you want to ask?

[monktao]

Why not walk away from this land and look for titled land where you can get a 30 year lease? Surely sor por kor land must be cheap, so walking away won't cost you much.

with all thats going on at the moment,i wouldnt walk away,i would get a pair of those trainers that make you run much faster,there is so much good advice on tv

TAKE IT.

How much cost a 30 year lease on 1/4 of a Rai or so and a pair of trainers? I only wear tong shoes.

[monktao]

Sorry, I have to explain it better for you to see better.

It's a Thai friend who offered me to build my house on her land for free, with a non official written agreement that I can stay there for 10 years whitout paying any rent. After the 10 years, she could renew the agreement or decide to keep the house for her.

She is a friend. She don't get any rent.

It's perfectly clear to me. You have spent "600,000 baht plus" to date constructing a house on somebody else's Sor Por Kor agricultural land with no legally binding agreement for occupying either the land or the house. Does that about cover it?

Yes, you got my point but I'm not sure I got yours when you say "Does that about cover it?"

Do you mind rephrasing it? (English is not my mother tongue)

Thanks for spending time here.

Anything else you want to ask?

Yes I want to understand your last question "Does that about cover it?"in order to answer it. So if you could just clarify it for me to understand. Thanks. I value your interest.

[snarky66]

How much cost a 30 year lease on 1/4 of a Rai or so and a pair of trainers? I only wear tong shoes.

1/4 Rai is 100 talad wah. Depends on what area.

[ludditeman]

Having just investigated this very thing in the last week, and seeming to have been given good legal advice by both local headman and solicitor.

This type of land is government owned land for distribution (usually by the village head man) to local people to use and live on.

It is often just assigned to the family that lived and worked the land in the past.

Foreigners and non-locals (out of Amphur Thais) are absolutely forbidden by law to make any use of it.

The government will not support any claims of any sort from those sort of people, and will reclaim the land from the locals if they persist in trying to let such persons use it.

The reason for this is, people from the big cities can always outbid locals for land, the local population need somewhere to live.

The only way you can have any use of this land as a foreigner (or Thai person from another Amphur) is.

1) Marry a lady from the Amphur (she must have a birth certificate and initial Tabnian Ban registration in that Amphur).

2) Create a new Thai person in that Amphur (birth certificate and Tabian Ban to be first registered in that Amphur) and give the baby the land.

So there you go, marry her or get her pregnant.

(I didn't ask about adopting a local child, but that may be another way)

Edited August 23, 2011 by ludditeman

[InterestedObserver]

Yes I want to understand your last question "Does that about cover it?"in order to answer it. So if you could just clarify it for me to understand. Thanks. I value your interest.

It means do you have any other questions to ask or do you need any other information?

[monktao]

Anything else you want to ask?

OK I get your last question now.

I would like to ask if what we have agreed on is legal (can the neighbours complain about it, create problems with the village chief, etc...) and if this is legal to allow someone to build a house on a Sor Por Kor land.

If this is legal, could we find any agreement / contract that would allow me to stay on the land the time mentioned on the agreement.

[snarky66]

I thought that was answered in post #27.

[ludditeman]

If you were to make any written agreement with this lady (perhaps with the unlawful compliance of the village headman), anyone else who got hold of a copy could present it to the local land office where the land would be re-assigned to another local villager.

How much plainer can it be said!

Locals do appear to trade the land amongst themselves by contract supervised by the village headman.

But I was lead to believe the land office could over-rule such deals and again reassign the land to someone else.

Edited August 23, 2011 by ludditeman