Buying Uk Shares From Thailand

[dsfbrit]

I am British and retired in LOS since 2003. I had planned to just live off the income of my savings. I thought putting money in a bank was hassle and risk free. How times have changed over the last few years.!!!

So I have some funds 'maturing' next month and then again next year and have no confidence the bank will survive when (not IF ) Greece defaults on its debt. Then of course there is Italy, Spain etc...

Anyway, not wishing to get too involved with THAT debate too much, I have decided I will buy some UK shares instead of taking out another bank bond.

I thought this would be easy. I contacted the Internet Share Dealer I used before (Selftrade) and of course as I am an Expat with no UK address, then I cannot use their services. Foolishly I shut down this account some time ago so opening a NEW account with them with no UK address is the issue.

Fair enough.

So does anyone know of a service I could use - trading only - I dont want their advice. I only intend to buy shares in Blue Chip companies at first, Tescos maybe, that sort of company, mainly for the dividend income, but later I may branch out a bit.

Thanks very much for any advice you can give.

(it seems such a long time ago now that we could actually trust that money held in banks would be safe!!!)

Edited August 25, 2011 by dsfbrit

[bartender100]

You could try iii.co.uk they have minimal set up,they still send final passwords by post, I really think you are going to need UK address and bank account, unless maybe you use an offshore account such as HSBC, but they do have a high minimum deposit.

Why not learn about Thai stocks?, its all pretty much a gamble there days anyway

[dsfbrit]

Bartender, thanks for the reply. I will have a look at that company.

The reason I did not want to deal with Thai stocks is that I have/had a basic rule of keeping all my savings income out of the LOS. It seemed like a simple system, move to Thailand, put cash in banks in UK and live off the interest. That way if the life over here becomes a problem for whatever reason and I have to leave, then I have my major assets outside LOS anyway.

I never thought for one minute that my bank - Halifax - would go bust. So I am having to rethink my strategy, I have to say though, the thought of bringing a lot of money into LOS to buy shares on the SET does put me way outside my 'comfort zone'.

[wordchild]

there is no real reason why you should not be able to use a uk broker (to invest in the uk) as a non-uk ie thailand resident. i am based in SE Asia (singapore and thailand) and deal with a number of uk brokers, without issue. the hurdle is being taken on as a NEW client and the regulations mainly around money laundering and the "know your client" hoops that brokers now have to go through because of same.

I suspect ,because of the low commisions involved, it is just too much trouble for an internet only based operation to go through the required hoops and so they probably have internal rules eg "computer says no!"

If you hunt around you will find brokers prepared to take you on . i know , for example, that charles stanley, are happy to take on non res uk clients, though they will require a local utility bill or such like (and commision will be higher than an online broker). also phillip securities, based in sing,they own a uk broker dealer, and, in my experience, are pretty good at handling uk investments. they also offer a highly regarded internet based investment service.

Edited August 25, 2011 by wordchild

[wordchild]

there is no real reason why you should not be able to use a uk broker (to invest in the uk) as a non-uk ie thailand resident. i am based in SE Asia (singapore and thailand) and deal with a number of uk brokers, without issue. the hurdle is being taken on as a NEW client and the regulations mainly around money laundering and the "know your client" hoops that brokers now have to go through because of same.

I suspect ,because of the low commisions involved, it is just too much trouble for an internet only based operation to go through the required hoops and so they probably have internal rules eg "computer says no!"

If you hunt around you will find brokers prepared to take you on . i know , for example, that charles stanley, are happy to take on non res uk clients, though they will require a local utility bill or such like (and commision will be higher than an online broker). also phillip securities, based in sing,they own a uk broker dealer, and, in my experience, are pretty good at handling uk investments. they also offer a highly regarded internet based investment service.

when i said local utility bill above i , of course meant a Thai one rather than a UK one. They dont say if they need a translation!

[CRUNCHER]

You might be having trouble if you are not resident for tax purposes.

Try HSBC Invest Direct International. A bit of hassle to set up, you will need to set up an offshore account in Jersey, and rates are a bit higher than UK brokers. Works OK, but not outstanding. I basically found I had no choice. It was the only way I could trade in UK and US stock markets.

If you are in Bangkok go in and see HSBC. If not you will have to do it all on line and by post.

[Darrel]

NatWest Stockbrokers set up a non-resident nominee account for me with no problem, though that was 10 years ago when the stupid KYC rules weren't quite so absurd. You would need to have a UK bank account though.

I haven't lived in the UK for over 35 years.

[dsfbrit]

there is no real reason why you should not be able to use a uk broker (to invest in the uk) as a non-uk ie thailand resident. i am based in SE Asia (singapore and thailand) and deal with a number of uk brokers, without issue. the hurdle is being taken on as a NEW client and the regulations mainly around money laundering and the "know your client" hoops that brokers now have to go through because of same.

I suspect ,because of the low commisions involved, it is just too much trouble for an internet only based operation to go through the required hoops and so they probably have internal rules eg "computer says no!"

If you hunt around you will find brokers prepared to take you on . i know , for example, that charles stanley, are happy to take on non res uk clients, though they will require a local utility bill or such like (and commision will be higher than an online broker). also phillip securities, based in sing,they own a uk broker dealer, and, in my experience, are pretty good at handling uk investments. they also offer a highly regarded internet based investment service.

Thanks wordchild for the information. The 'computer say no' mentality seems to prevail when trying to open NEW accounts with cash as a new client. Money laundering rules means the proof of source of funds can be a real pain. I will try those recommendations and see what they say.

Thanks again.

[dsfbrit]

You might be having trouble if you are not resident for tax purposes.

Try HSBC Invest Direct International. A bit of hassle to set up, you will need to set up an offshore account in Jersey, and rates are a bit higher than UK brokers. Works OK, but not outstanding. I basically found I had no choice. It was the only way I could trade in UK and US stock markets.

If you are in Bangkok go in and see HSBC. If not you will have to do it all on line and by post.

Thanks Cruncher for the suggestions. When I moved to LOS and decided to have a 'simple' life on the money front, I sold all my UK assets and put my cash in the banks to live off the interest. The bank savings accounts were UK based at first, but as they matured I could not open accounts onshore as I was a non-resident, so slowly I have had to open accounts offshore as well.

I now have a lot of accounts, many redundant, with HSBC (onshore and offshore channel islands), LloydsTSB (Bank Of Scotland International, Halifax International), Coop International, Barclays and others ...

The upside of this 'mess' is that I may take your suggestion and expand it a bit and contact ALL the banks I

am currently a customer with and see if they provide this trading facility. It may help with the 'computer say no' response that wordchild referred to when trying to open an account as a NEW customer.

Thanks again for the reply

[dsfbrit]

NatWest Stockbrokers set up a non-resident nominee account for me with no problem, though that was 10 years ago when the stupid KYC rules weren't quite so absurd. You would need to have a UK bank account though.

I haven't lived in the UK for over 35 years.

Thanks Darrel for the feedback. I dont want to live in the UK for 35 years either !!

I love living in LOS and to be honest have no real desire to have any dealings with the UK (onshore) at all. So the more I consider the feedback I am getting in this thread, it makes me realise more and more that maybe I am making a mistake. Lets face it, dealing with the beloved HMRC regarding taxation issues again, would be a real pain.

Thats something I no longer need to do and I like it that way.

Maybe I will have a rethink. My original plan was to keep money out of the LOS, but perhaps the financial world has changed so much in the last 3 years that bringing the cash over here may be a better option.

Then I could put some cash in a deposit account, buy a bit more gold and do some trading on the SET.

At least with this approach I may have some money left at the end of the day, I am not so sure that will be the case with LloydsTSB offshore when the sovereign debt defaults start to occur!!

I have a lot to think about over the next few weeks.

Thanks again for the feedback.

[Darrel]

If you live outside the UK there is a lot to be said for keeping your non-resident assets onshore in the UK (if you can find a bank that wants them).

No tax to pay on deposit interest, no (extra) tax to pay on dividend income, no tax to pay on UK gilts, no capital gains tax.

And on top of that you get deposit insurance from the UK government that actually means something, unlike the fake insurance offered by the IOM and CI.

I am now in the process of moving as much as possible of my savings back onshore. The only real difficulty (apart from the endless certified photocopies of documents) is finding enough deposit takers there who will accept non-resident funds to allow for full deposit protection at GBP85K per institution.

[dsfbrit]

If you live outside the UK there is a lot to be said for keeping your non-resident assets onshore in the UK (if you can find a bank that wants them).

No tax to pay on deposit interest, no (extra) tax to pay on dividend income, no tax to pay on UK gilts, no capital gains tax.

And on top of that you get deposit insurance from the UK government that actually means something, unlike the fake insurance offered by the IOM and CI.

I am now in the process of moving as much as possible of my savings back onshore. The only real difficulty (apart from the endless certified photocopies of documents) is finding enough deposit takers there who will accept non-resident funds to allow for full deposit protection at GBP85K per institution.

Couldn't agree more. The trouble is I dont know of ANY onshore banks that will let me set up a NEW fixed rate fixed term interest paying account without being a UK resident. Even the onshore banks I am with (Lloyds TSB, HSBC, Coventry BS) dont allow this. They just refer me to their offshore partners.

As you say the IOM and Guernsey 'guarantees' aren't worth the webpages they are printed on. The IOM guarantee for example, is up to 50K pounds compensation BUT to a maximum of 200 million pounds in total for ALL bank failures within a 2 year(?) period - a drop in the Greek default ocean if the contagion brings down just one bank, let alone the more likely scenario of several banks being affected.

Guernsey is even worse as far as I recall.

I currently have an old instant access onshore savings account with Coventry Building Society that I never thought I would use again. It pays 0.5 percent interest (wow) but is a nice place to park some money while I decide what to do next. The 85K limit will however be breached when my next offshore bond matures next month, so where then???

Any ideas,even though off topic, would be appreciated. Off-topic is usually 'bad' - but its my thread - so we can do that cant we.

Its why I thought of investing in shares (UK based) again, if they are blue chip and produce a dividend then that would be fine for my purposes.

[Darrel]

NatWest. Skipton BS. State Bank of India.

That's three. There are others.

[dsfbrit]

NatWest. Skipton BS. State Bank of India.

That's three. There are others.

Ok thanks for that, it may have set me off in a 'different' direction - rather than get involved with shares.

I will start doing some research.

Thanks again Darrell.

[Darrel]

At least with this approach I may have some money left at the end of the day, I am not so sure that will be the case with LloydsTSB offshore when the sovereign debt defaults start to occur!!

OK, I also have zero faith in the offshore non-guarantees.

However, as far as I know, LloydsTSB Offshore places all its funds with LloydsTSB Plc. This is owned 43% by the UK government (and I think I own the other 57%, but that's another story). So LloydsTSB Offshore has no direct exposure to shoddy European sovereign debt, only via LloydsTSB Plc which is supported by the UK government.

So for LloydsTSB Offshore to collapse, the onshore version would have to collapse first (yes, I know that LloydsTSB Plc specifically do not guarantee LloydsTSB Offshore, but even so).

Seems fairly safe to me, especially when compared with some other houses-of-cards European banks.

[Darrel]

...it may have set me off in a 'different' direction - rather than get involved with shares.

For maximum safety you could look at UK Gilts. These are entirely tax-free for non-residents, and of course are backed 100% by the UK government. (One of the few remaining AAA governments, I might add.)

However, now is probably a bad time to buy as yields are at an all-time low (which means prices are at an all-time high).

[SalazarsSalazar]

its actually NOT a very good idea to keep assets in the UK if you are non-resident for a multitude of tax reasons. As one other poster from Sing/Thai mentioned there are plenty og other options preferable to UK - primarily HK and Singapore.

If you live outside the UK there is a lot to be said for keeping your non-resident assets onshore in the UK (if you can find a bank that wants them).

No tax to pay on deposit interest, no (extra) tax to pay on dividend income, no tax to pay on UK gilts, no capital gains tax.

And on top of that you get deposit insurance from the UK government that actually means something, unlike the fake insurance offered by the IOM and CI.

I am now in the process of moving as much as possible of my savings back onshore. The only real difficulty (apart from the endless certified photocopies of documents) is finding enough deposit takers there who will accept non-resident funds to allow for full deposit protection at GBP85K per institution.

[dsfbrit]

At least with this approach I may have some money left at the end of the day, I am not so sure that will be the case with LloydsTSB offshore when the sovereign debt defaults start to occur!!

OK, I also have zero faith in the offshore non-guarantees.

However, as far as I know, LloydsTSB Offshore places all its funds with LloydsTSB Plc. This is owned 43% by the UK government (and I think I own the other 57%, but that's another story). So LloydsTSB Offshore has no direct exposure to shoddy European sovereign debt, only via LloydsTSB Plc which is supported by the UK government.

So for LloydsTSB Offshore to collapse, the onshore version would have to collapse first (yes, I know that LloydsTSB Plc specifically do not guarantee LloydsTSB Offshore, but even so).

Seems fairly safe to me, especially when compared with some other houses-of-cards European banks.

The trouble is I have ALL my savings with Lloyds TSB offshore. I know the UK government could bail out Lloyds again(well it was Halifax they bailed out in fact), as they can print money, but would they. Haven't all savers now been warned to have no more than the FSCS 85K maximum in any banking group.

The UK government also keeps pointing out that the 85K limit covers 95 percent of ALL savers, so the other 5 percent, especially non voting EXPATs, are hardly a priority. In fact NOT baling out the banks is a vote winner in my opinion. Especially as a bale out is seen to be saving the 'fat cats' like Sir Fred Goodwin - even I want that **** to be humbled.

I tried Skipton BS and got this reply. So another option bites the dust:-

Thank you for your e-mail. I regret you must be a UK resident to open an

account with us. As a building society our customers are also our

members and must therefore be UK residents.

Thank you for considering Skipton.

Regards

David Cutter

Group Chief Executive

Skipton Building Society

[dsfbrit]

...it may have set me off in a 'different' direction - rather than get involved with shares.

For maximum safety you could look at UK Gilts. These are entirely tax-free for non-residents, and of course are backed 100% by the UK government. (One of the few remaining AAA governments, I might add.)

However, now is probably a bad time to buy as yields are at an all-time low (which means prices are at an all-time high).

Thanks Darrel, I will have a look at that.

[dsfbrit]

its actually NOT a very good idea to keep assets in the UK if you are non-resident for a multitude of tax reasons. As one other poster from Sing/Thai mentioned there are plenty og other options preferable to UK - primarily HK and Singapore.

If you live outside the UK there is a lot to be said for keeping your non-resident assets onshore in the UK (if you can find a bank that wants them).

No tax to pay on deposit interest, no (extra) tax to pay on dividend income, no tax to pay on UK gilts, no capital gains tax.

And on top of that you get deposit insurance from the UK government that actually means something, unlike the fake insurance offered by the IOM and CI.

I am now in the process of moving as much as possible of my savings back onshore. The only real difficulty (apart from the endless certified photocopies of documents) is finding enough deposit takers there who will accept non-resident funds to allow for full deposit protection at GBP85K per institution.

SalazarsSalazar, thanks for feedback.

I agree with your point about not being a part of the UK for tax purposes. You can imagine my frustration then. I had a nice life, all my saving in cash offshore with a major UK bank and living off the interest. No dealings with HMRC and perfectly legal.

I was not making a fortune by UK standards, but more than enough to have a good life here in LOS.

Then all this banking **** happens. Before it was banking debt/crisis, that was bad enough, but now its a sovereign debt crisis - a much bigger problem - and there seems little desire for anyone (ie Germany and France in reality) to take a firm leadership role and sort it out.

The trouble is for risk averse people like me, anything outside the UK environment is outside my 'comfort zone'.

I understand UK Law, the banking system, the companies etc... to a reasonable level. I know where the pitfalls may be when it comes to how the place (ie the UK) operates.

I have no idea about Hong Kong nor Singapore and would not trust any personal judgment until I had researched it for some time - probably years.

I have lived in Thailand for 8 years now, speak Thai and understand a lot about the Thai structure, but I would have NO confidence at all in trading on the SET unless I had spent quite a lot of time assessing it.

So for me and other risk averse people like me, even with the downside of having to deal with the beloved HMRC again, it is still a better (ie safer) option than Hong Kong, Singapore etc...

I wish it weren't the case - believe me

[prakhonchai nick]

Whether buying shares in the UK and obtaining dividends, or interest from banks and building societies, you could be liable for UK income tax, especially if these payments are topped up with state and private UK pensions.

Living in Thailand does not absolve anyone from their UK tax liability especially where the money comes initially from the UK

[dsfbrit]

Whether buying shares in the UK and obtaining dividends, or interest from banks and building societies, you could be liable for UK income tax, especially if these payments are topped up with state and private UK pensions.

Living in Thailand does not absolve anyone from their UK tax liability especially where the money comes initially from the UK

prakhonchai nick, you are right of course. If the money is generated onshore then there can be an issue.

My personal tax allowance is about 7500 pounds and my only UK income at the moment is a small pension I took when I was 50 (57 now), so assuming the income would be no more than 5 percent on 85K, I could easily receive interest or dividends from shares without breaching this limit.

If I start moving the bonds that mature next year onshore, then that would breach the limit for sure. Although, dividend interest used to be just 10 percent, not sure if that is the same now, maybe that is worth it to be sure of getting my capital back if the banking system does 'fail' in some way.

I have to say, just the thought of dealing with HMRC AT ALL makes me feel quite nauseous.

From my point of view, this thread is really bringing home to me WHY I just put money offshore and made myself a non-resident Expat. I HATE dealing with all the bu***t rules of the UK - especially the taxation rules.

Maybe leaving the money offshore is worth the risk

[Darrel]

The trouble is I have ALL my savings with Lloyds TSB offshore

...................

I tried Skipton BS and got this reply. So another option bites the dust:-

Dont put all your eggs in one basket. There are several sound offshore deposit takers (Coop, Santander, Nationwide) even if you dont want to go onshore.

Skipton opened an account for me.

[Darrel]

its actually NOT a very good idea to keep assets in the UK if you are non-resident for a multitude of tax reasons.

That depends on the nature of the assets and your individual circumstances.

For me, all my deposit interest is completely tax-free, I have no supplementary tax charge on dividends and no capital gains tax liabilities.

Add to the the bank deposit guarantees and I am quite happy to be mostly onshore.

YMMV

[Darrel]

If I start moving the bonds that mature next year onshore, then that would breach the limit for sure. Although, dividend interest used to be just 10 percent, not sure if that is the same now, ......

UK tax on savings interest for non-residents is limited to tax withheld at source. Complete a form R105 and your interest will be paid gross (by a deposit taker who accepts that form, not all do).

There is no supplementary income tax liability at all, regardless of how much gross interest you get.

UK dividends are not subject to any extra tax for non-residents.

UK Gilts and government savings products are free of tax on income and capital gains for non-residents.

Tax on interest paid at source can be reclaimed, subject to the personal allowance conditions.

So I don't see much downside there, though anyone with a UK pension or other source of UK income might need to think twice.

About the only thing that might be an issue for a non-resident saver is UK inheritance tax. And that is a domicile issue anyway, not a residence issue.

[prakhonchai nick]

UK tax on savings interest for non-residents is limited to tax withheld at source. Complete a form R105 and your interest will be paid gross (by a deposit taker who accepts that form, not all do).

There is no supplementary income tax liability at all, regardless of how much gross interest you get.

UK dividends are not subject to any extra tax for non-residents.

UK Gilts and government savings products are free of tax on income and capital gains for non-residents.

Tax on interest paid at source can be reclaimed, subject to the personal allowance conditions.

So I don't see much downside there, though anyone with a UK pension or other source of UK income might need to think twice.

About the only thing that might be an issue for a non-resident saver is UK inheritance tax. And that is a domicile issue anyway, not a residence issue.

Whilst there is no extra tax payable as non residents, surely everyone is liable to pay tax on interest, dividends, pensions etc, once the amount involved exceeds their personal tax allowance.

If you are fortunate to become non domiciled, (needs a lot of convincing the Inland Revenue) then the tax liability passes to your chosen country of domicility (in our case Thailand) and you may then be subject to have to pay tax using Thai tax rates and personal allowances. Certain pensions are tax exempt with conditions applying.

[dsfbrit]

The trouble is I have ALL my savings with Lloyds TSB offshore

...................

I tried Skipton BS and got this reply. So another option bites the dust:-

Dont put all your eggs in one basket. There are several sound offshore deposit takers (Coop, Santander, Nationwide) even if you dont want to go onshore.

Skipton opened an account for me.

In fact I am wrong - I have some assets with Coop Offshore (Guernsey). I forgot!!!

I am looking at the 5 year bond with Santander (alliance and leicester) offshore as well. I have just done the 'know your customer' stuff with them by opening up an instant access account

I am erring on the side of just setting up the 5 year bond with A&L next month. One thing that put me off this savings account is that it is a BOND. Not just a simple savings account. I assume that if Santander do have to take a 'haircut' due to a sovereign debt default, then bond holders may be one of the casualties!

[dsfbrit]

If I start moving the bonds that mature next year onshore, then that would breach the limit for sure. Although, dividend interest used to be just 10 percent, not sure if that is the same now, ......

UK tax on savings interest for non-residents is limited to tax withheld at source. Complete a form R105 and your interest will be paid gross (by a deposit taker who accepts that form, not all do).

There is no supplementary income tax liability at all, regardless of how much gross interest you get.

UK dividends are not subject to any extra tax for non-residents.

UK Gilts and government savings products are free of tax on income and capital gains for non-residents.

Tax on interest paid at source can be reclaimed, subject to the personal allowance conditions.

So I don't see much downside there, though anyone with a UK pension or other source of UK income might need to think twice.

About the only thing that might be an issue for a non-resident saver is UK inheritance tax. And that is a domicile issue anyway, not a residence issue.

I tried the R105 forms with Coventry BS and Halifax bank - it was another case of 'computer says no'. Of course when I tried to recover the tax from our chums at HMRC, they wanted me to prove all kinds of stuff about paying tax in LOS. I still have the pile of forms upstairs

To be honest, to find a bank onshore that will take my deposit AND recognise an R105 form, is looking less and less hopeful!!! Mind you paying a bit of UK tax would not bother me, its having to deal with HMRC again that makes me want to - well - cry is the emotion that comes to mind - what a bunch they are nowadays.

HMRC used to be quite(very) efficient. Nowadays if you send them documents you are lucky to get a reply and

I even started sending stuff Fedex as normal registered mail just vanished.

In fact, I think that is the 'tipping point' for me. The thought of dealing with HMRC is just too much. I think I will continue to do everything offshore - I will just have to find a formula that works.

I will spread money amongst the major banks and hope some of them 'survive' - the alternatives - even buying shares in blue chip companies - is just too much hassle for very little gain as a registered Expat!

Edited August 27, 2011 by dsfbrit

[Chivas]

Bartender, thanks for the reply. I will have a look at that company.

The reason I did not want to deal with Thai stocks is that I have/had a basic rule of keeping all my savings income out of the LOS. It seemed like a simple system, move to Thailand, put cash in banks in UK and live off the interest. That way if the life over here becomes a problem for whatever reason and I have to leave, then I have my major assets outside LOS anyway.

I never thought for one minute that my bank - Halifax - would go bust. So I am having to rethink my strategy, I have to say though, the thought of bringing a lot of money into LOS to buy shares on the SET does put me way outside my 'comfort zone'.

Have I missed something re the halifax !!

[Darrel]

Whilst there is no extra tax payable as non residents, surely everyone is liable to pay tax on interest, dividends, pensions etc, once the amount involved exceeds their personal tax allowance.

The UK non-res rules are very clear.

The liability for tax on interest on savings is limited to any tax deducted at source. If the interest is paid gross (as it is on certain bonds, or if you complete an R105 form) there is no further liability to tax. If you have other taxable UK income and file a tax return then the gross interest is treated as "disregarded income" and is not included as taxable income.

http://www.hmrc.gov....al/saim1170.htm

A similar rule applies to dividend income, though of course there is no way of avoiding the small dividend withholding tax, nor can it be reclaimed.

So basically if you are non-res then there is no limit to the amount of gross interest or dividends you can receive, and none of it is subject to any further taxation in the UK.

If you are fortunate to become non domiciled, (needs a lot of convincing the Inland Revenue) then the tax liability passes to your chosen country of domicility (in our case Thailand) and you may then be subject to have to pay tax using Thai tax rates and personal allowances. Certain pensions are tax exempt with conditions applying.

I personally would gain nothing from becoming non-domiciled (and I have absolutely no desire to be so).

As far as tax in Thailand goes, liability is limited to money earned in Thailand, and money earned abroad and remitted to Thailand in the same year.