Enforce The Law And Stamp Out Illegal Copying: Thai Opinion

[ludditeman]

Copyright laws, written by Hollywood, enacted by corrupt US politicians, purchased by US lobbyists.

They are clearly well worth enforcing.

Here is an original idea

Why not, make a quality product and sell at a reasonable price, so that nobody can profit from making cheap copies.

[Richard4849]

And even more would disagree. There are unlimited ways one can make a living without breaking the law.

[Heng]

Absolutely. But then tend not to be easy and tax free.

[overhaul38]

Now you are getting ridiculous. I hope this is just a normal PR exercise.

[TAWP]

Keep copying. Anything else is a government licensed monopoly situation that is counter to the free market.

[Richard4849]

Keep copying. Anything else is a government licensed monopoly situation that is counter to the free market.

Feel the same about fake liqor and pharmaceuticals? No, didn't think so.

Someone who has obviously never created anything original in his life...

[TAWP]

Keep copying. Anything else is a government licensed monopoly situation that is counter to the free market.

Feel the same about fake liqor and pharmaceuticals? No, didn't think so.

Someone who has obviously never created anything original in his life...

As long as the liquer and the pharmaceuticals would be copies, why not?

Never created anything? You are funny. Want to bet a couple of millions on that.

[digibum]

Polo Shirt cost to make $8 sell in UK $120 Although I agree that this is an extream example, these are the sort of margins that give copiers a market.

Nike spend far more on advertising and freebies than making the products.

The only designer part in a lot of garments is the badge.

While people are stupid enough to pay this extra money there will always be copies.

And the problem with that is . . . .?

You're right, Nike does spend insane amounts of money on building their brand. They do so in order to be able to charge $120 for a pair of shoes.

What the copier is doing is basically riding on the money Nike is spending to create awareness for the brand for free.

It would be one thing if the copier copied Nike shoes to the stitch and sold them without a Nike logo. Still illegal but it goes to show that the copier is really just hijacking Nike's brand, the part that people are willing to pay for.

Now, you may not think a pair of shoes is worth $120. That's your right. But other people don't mind paying it. If people didn't think the shoes with the logo were worth $120 they wouldn't buy them and Nike would be out of business.

And this is the reason the copiers don't make the shoes without the logo. Some people have cited how poor Thai people are but if it was about what they could afford why would it matter if there's a logo or not? Shouldn't they be happy having a nice pair of shoes?

The other part people often overlook is that counterfeiting can destroy the value of the brand. I was joking around with a Thai friend about buying a new Gucci purse she was eyeing at Paragon. She said, "Even if I had the money I would never buy it. Nobody would believe I could afford a Gucci purse anyway. They'd think I bought a copy so why not just buy the copy and save the money?"

I have the same feeling wearing my Rolex watch. There are so many fake Rolex watches sold and worn in Thailand that instead of feeling proud that I'm wearing a fine timepiece that I invested in (the watch is currently worth twice what I paid for it), I feel like everyone will think I'm just another poser idiot who bought a fake Rolex on Sukhumvit. So what do I wear 95% of the time? A cheap Casio G-Shock.

[digibum]

Copyright laws, written by Hollywood, enacted by corrupt US politicians, purchased by US lobbyists.

They are clearly well worth enforcing.

Here is an original idea

Why not, make a quality product and sell at a reasonable price, so that nobody can profit from making cheap copies.

And how exactly would you do that if your quality product involved research and trial and error to get it right? You end up doing all of the hard work of perfecting the product and then someone comes behind and sells it for little more than the cost of the materials used to produce it thus ensuring that you can never recoup the research and development costs. You couldn't stay in business.

Or better yet, you happen to be an ethical sort of person and try to hire Thais to work in your factory making the product while the guy making copies sends one of your quality products over to Vietnam or China and they mass produce a copy of your product and sell it for less than what it costs you because they're using sweatshop labor. Oh, and they start selling it all over the world so you can't even expand into other countries because the market is already flooded with knock-offs before you've sold a single legitimate product in that country.

Too many people immediately focus on Hollywood, which has admittedly overstepped its bounds, when a lot of the copying going on has nothing to do with movies or music. In reality, copying harms all sorts of businesses. Would you want to get into the t-shirt business in Thailand? You come up with an idea, go out and hire an artist to do the design, research your market, find distributors or retailers willing to sell your t-shirts (for a markup to compensate them), and then some guy comes along and copies your t-shirt and sells it on the street for 1/3 of what you're selling it for.

[ludditeman]

Or better yet, you happen to be an ethical sort of person and try to hire Thais to work in your factory making the product while the guy making copies sends one of your quality products over to Vietnam or China and they mass produce a copy of your product and sell it for less than what it costs you because they're using sweatshop labor. Oh, and they start selling it all over the world so you can't even expand into other countries because the market is already flooded with knock-offs before you've sold a single legitimate product in that country.

I thought Nike and Rebok already had all their products made by sweatshop labour?

What products involving R&D were you thinking of?

[Richard4849]

Keep copying. Anything else is a government licensed monopoly situation that is counter to the free market.

Feel the same about fake liqor and pharmaceuticals? No, didn't think so.

Someone who has obviously never created anything original in his life...

As long as the liquer and the pharmaceuticals would be copies, why not?

Never created anything? You are funny. Want to bet a couple of millions on that.

Ah...so you HAVE created something original. And you wouldn't care in the least if someone stole your idea and profited off it? Answer honestly, please.

[TAWP]

Ah...so you HAVE created something original. And you wouldn't care in the least if someone stole your idea and profited off it? Answer honestly, please.

Ideas should never be patentable.

I have created multiple applications both privately and through work. I work for a multinational company that is one of the premiere solution providers in our field. Yes, I/we have been copied.

Listen, it is very simple.

If I come up with the concept of gluing together some pieces of wood using chewing gum to make a chair that isn't something I should be able to get a government enforced monopoly license for making. Someone else should be able to go home and make a chair out of sticks and chewing-gum. And if his design, selection of wood or stronger chewing gum makes his chair a better product, then so be it.

Anything else is anti-free market.

Ps. You will find that amongst actual developers and innovators that support for software patents is infact much lower than the average numbers. Ds.

Edited September 1, 2011 by TAWP

[Richard4849]

I know ideas can't be patented. Functional innovation can be patented. You don't have to lecture me like I'm an idiot.

Trademark rights protect imitators from applying others' marks and logos onto their own products to make them appear to have been designed or manufactured by someone else.

Copyrights protect artwork, literature, film, and music from copying so that those who created can profit from them instead of thieves who want to steal it.

Yet you have a problem with the above, apparently?

[TAWP]

I know ideas can't be patented. Functional innovation can be patented. You don't have to lecture me like I'm an idiot.

Um...I meant it should not be patentable. But when it comes to software patents...ideas ARE patentable. A reason the whole patent mess is so laughable.

Trademark rights protect imitators from applying others' marks and logos onto their own products to make them appear to have been designed or manufactured by someone else.

Copyrights protect artwork, literature, film, and music from copying so that those who created can profit from them instead of thieves who want to steal it.

Yet you have a problem with the above, apparently?

Trademarks and copyrights are two very-very different things.

Trademarks, as in logos, is the least offensive of the IP mess. But while the protection should be from a consumer angle, i.e. to protect a consumer from being defrauded - as in buying a product with a known logo that is infact not produced by the company in question, that isn't the implementation nor the legal background for it at all.

If Trademarks was for the consumers protection than a consumer that was defrauded could sue the company using the logo, i.e. for mislabeling their own products.

Trademarks today is however expanded to ridiculous proportions, for example you can not manufacture a toy gun that looks like a Colt M16 unless you have a license as the design (i.e. shape) of the weapon itself is Trademarked. Are the customers being defrauded, thinking the water gun they purchase is really a real gun by the [former] Colt corporation and are upset when it is not?

If you want to have an honest debate about the pro's and con's of the existence of IP, then I am game.

But sofar most posters here just like to throw out one-liners about theft and criminals or people that never made anything in their lives...

[Richard4849]

Never mind the arguing. Now that I know your view towards' others creations, just email me those highly innovative applications you've developed. I'll stick my name on them and shop them around Silicon Valley.

[Geekfreaklover]

Retail and wholesale buyers understand that they can buy dodgy products in Thailand. Products made in the same factory at a fraction of the price of the endorsed product from the patant holder. Buyers aren't stupid. They know that the same kid that stiched together a football did it for addidas and did it for addis.

Thailand's a great place to buy products that flirt with patent infringements.

Sadly not a place to invest.in ripping off the big man.

Producers like to invest in countires where there are strong patant-infrigment laws in place to protect their products despite the cost of production. Thailand is a cheap place to build factories and produce goods, but with weak patant laws and harsh laws with regards to foreign ownership of intelligetual property she will remain to be a hotbed of copying with no oportunity for a investor with more than a six-month business plan .

She's cutting of her nose to spite her face. Kinda.

[digibum]

Or better yet, you happen to be an ethical sort of person and try to hire Thais to work in your factory making the product while the guy making copies sends one of your quality products over to Vietnam or China and they mass produce a copy of your product and sell it for less than what it costs you because they're using sweatshop labor. Oh, and they start selling it all over the world so you can't even expand into other countries because the market is already flooded with knock-offs before you've sold a single legitimate product in that country.

I thought Nike and Rebok already had all their products made by sweatshop labour?

What products involving R&D were you thinking of?

Almost any product can require R&D. I already have given some basic examples. However, R&D also includes marketing research. It includes user testing. Many consumer product companies spend hundreds of thousands or even millions designing the packaging, ergonomics, etc for their product.

Is it fair then that someone come along and rip off all of that work by simply recreating your product, slapping your logo on it, and selling it for a price cheaper than you because part of your product costs includes recouping all the money you spent getting the product right?

Or let's say that you come up with a new skin whitener. You watched your wife spending thousands of baht per month on all of these whitening products so you decided to get into the business because you thought you could make a better whitening cream. So you hire a chemist, a biologist, and you start mixing up various concoctions trying to find the perfect skin whitener.

After two years of hard work, multiple rounds of testing on animals, some human testing, etc. you finally have the best whitening product in the world. You apply for a patent on your formula gear up the manufacturing and marketing and finally launch your ultimate skin whitening cream.

You pump money into advertising on television, in print, on the BTS/MRT, etc, etc and all of your hard work pays off and people paying 1500 baht for a jar of your whitening cream.

The success of your product doesn't go unnoticed and some copier buys a jar of your cream and has someone reverse engineer the chemical makeup and starts producing a copy of your cream and even uses the same packaging and logo. He starts selling it at local street vendors, JJ's, via internet and mail order for 500 baht per jar. Since he didn't spend 2 years developing the cream, nor did he pay for any of the testing, marketing, or anything else his cost of producing the cream is a fraction of your cost so while he can make a profit at 500 a jar you would be losing money.

But wait, it gets better. The copier decides that one of the ingredients is too expensive so he buys a cheaper alternative which causes rashes on many of the people who use it. Soon, people are talking about how your product causes rashes and sales plummet. The copier not only ripped you off but he sank your entire business.

[ludditeman]

Retail and wholesale buyers understand that they can buy dodgy products in Thailand. Products made in the same factory at a fraction of the price of the endorsed product from the patant holder. Buyers aren't stupid. They know that the same kid that stiched together a football did it for addidas and did it for addis.

Thailand's a great place to buy products that flirt with patent infringements.

Sadly not a place to invest.in ripping off the big man.

Producers like to invest in countires where there are strong patant-infrigment laws in place to protect their products despite the cost of production. Thailand is a cheap place to build factories and produce goods, but with weak patant laws and harsh laws with regards to foreign ownership of intelligetual property she will remain to be a hotbed of copying with no oportunity for a investor with more than a six-month business plan .

She's cutting of her nose to spite her face. Kinda.

<deleted>!

Factories are built wherever capitalists can make profits.

[Geekfreaklover]

Retail and wholesale buyers understand that they can buy dodgy products in Thailand. Products made in the same factory at a fraction of the price of the endorsed product from the patant holder. Buyers aren't stupid. They know that the same kid that stiched together a football did it for addidas and did it for addis.

Thailand's a great place to buy products that flirt with patent infringements.

Sadly not a place to invest.in ripping off the big man.

Producers like to invest in countires where there are strong patant-infrigment laws in place to protect their products despite the cost of production. Thailand is a cheap place to build factories and produce goods, but with weak patant laws and harsh laws with regards to foreign ownership of intelligetual property she will remain to be a hotbed of copying with no oportunity for a investor with more than a six-month business plan .

She's cutting of her nose to spite her face. Kinda.

<deleted>!

Factories are built wherever capitalists can make profits.

Sure, but they can't make profits if a factory opens across the streets selling the same stuff for cheaper and the law ins't on thier side to close it.

[Richard4849]

Retail and wholesale buyers understand that they can buy dodgy products in Thailand. Products made in the same factory at a fraction of the price of the endorsed product from the patant holder.

This is an oft-repeated fallacy.

99.99% of the fake crap out there is manufactured in unregistered back-alley shop houses with illegal alien bonded labor in horrific conditions, and no taxes paid.

The likes of adidas and Nike have very rigid conditions for their manufacturers, which are entirely at a different level.

[Heng]

It's not 99.99% by any means. You need look no further than a lot of the 'outlet' malls. Not outright counterfeits but the same licensed factories just running extra shifts and producing 'not up to specification, slightly damaged, wrong sized, etc.' product in ENDLESS quantity. And it doesn't all end up at the outlet malls. A lot of it ends up in the hands of street vendors and more than a few folks may have noticed that they even end up being sold as undamaged goods in Central, the Mall, etc.

You'll find something like that for just about every industry because anything branded can be copied. You can bet that the folks who make fake contact lenses, commercial aircraft parts, automobile tires aren't producing their goods in some back alley shop.

[rgs2001uk]

It's not 99.99% by any means. You need look no further than a lot of the 'outlet' malls. Not outright counterfeits but the same licensed factories just running extra shifts and producing 'not up to specification, slightly damaged, wrong sized, etc.' product in ENDLESS quantity. And it doesn't all end up at the outlet malls. A lot of it ends up in the hands of street vendors and more than a few folks may have noticed that they even end up being sold as undamaged goods in Central, the Mall, etc.

You'll find something like that for just about every industry because anything branded can be copied. You can bet that the folks who make fake contact lenses, commercial aircraft parts, automobile tires aren't producing their goods in some back alley shop.

Last time we were in Pattaya the mrs came back with a boxful of shirts she had bought in The Avenue, Reebok if I remember correctly 80% discount.

We stopped off to fill up with gas coming back from Petchabum a couple of months ago, in the row of shops was one selling Lacoste, mrs went straight to the ATM, the nice friendly vendors threw 2 extra in for free

[dominique355]

Last week I ordered a couple of DVD from Amazon and they arrived Monday. The Thai Post couldn't deliver the parcel because there was some duty to be paid.

To be precise, for a merchandise value of THB 7,000 a duty of THB 2,700 was due.

I really feel stupid to do it the legal way and pay almost 40% tax on legal DVDs. No wonder people buy pirate versions for a fraction of the cost.

Perhaps the Government should also consider reducing import tax on copyright-protected item so that the genuine products have a chance competing with the pirated ones.

Selling pirate CDs and DVDs is such a highly profitable business and with those who should fight it getting their cut, it is highly unlikely that piracy will disappear anytime soon.

[ludditeman]

I really feel stupid to do it the legal way and pay almost 40% tax on legal DVDs. No wonder people buy pirate versions for a fraction of the cost.

Most of us download this sort of thing for nothing.

Can't understand why you would pay someone else for it.

Edited September 2, 2011 by ludditeman