Clinton Offers Flood Help To Thailand

[sausageandmash]

That's right, and the Russians told them to get stuffed. That would have been a severe loss of face allowing America to help Russia.

Whatever people say or think about the US, they are always in there with aid during an emergency. They even offered the Russians assistance with recovery of the Kursk some years back.

[inquisitive]

As far as I know they were sent but I could be wrong ...

IF they did not go it was because the US Government rejected the offer.

So you're saying that you don't know whether they went or not, but you do know why? Could you actually believe this? You're an expert on why certain things happened, but don't know whether in fect they actually happened or not? I'm scratching my head here. Is there a name for this condition?

Really, defending a position whether you are right or wrong is appropriate for a debating team, but not a forum. Give it up already. Get some facts and get back to us. Any reasonable opinion is always welcome, but this is childish.

[Nisa]

As I clearly stated, I have no idea how water is used on the aircraft carrier and that is why I halved the average amount used of 123 gallons (which is a lower estimate). The point was they need to use a great deal of the water they produce on the ship. I also mentioned just a couple of the consequences and ramifications of having the US Armed forces operating in Thailand but there are many and the consequences at the time far outweighed the need. It was weeks after the ship came (uninvited) that the Thai Government announced it would import water in large part to possible future shortages. Everything that ship could offer (that is/was needed) can be got just as easily without having foreign military operating within and for Thailand.

By the way, the US National average for water use in the USA for ALL uses is183 gallons per day. Here are some numbers (again using lower estimates) of typical uses; flushing the toilet (new low flow toilets use 1.6 to 2 gallons per flush while older ones use 4 gallons), shower (2 gallons per minute new low flow, 5 gallons per minute old), brushing teeth, washing hands, dishes.... (new kitchen sink uses 2.2 gallons per minute), a new clothes washing machine uses 25 gallons while an old one uses 50 on average per wash. An outdoor hose uses 5 to 10 gallon per minutes and I mention this only because of the amount of cleaning that takes place on a carrier (small city) daily.

I will repeat, here we are almost a month later and there really has been no need to have involved them considering all the logistics and ramification their involvement would have entailed. Thailand is not without resources and is not a 3rd world country. There is nothing the carrier could have offered that could not easily be flown in and there is nothing stopping Thailand from requesting a carrier return if needed. People are inconvenienced right now but nobody is starving or dying of thirst. Before the need for a US aircraft carrier arrives, it only makes sense there would first be a need for the Thai military to be fully deployed. This is not a crisis where search and rescue teams are needed to pluck up tens of thousands of people.

I don't care what administration is in office, they would not have requested the assistance of the aircraft carrier .. especially at that time. And a request for them to leave all their water pumps, water and doctors on the pier with no other involvement or assistance would not have been accepted by the US.

You have no idea, so you halved the figure that has no relevance, and that's close enough? Let's see, SHIPS flush toilets and wash down decks with salt water for obvious reasons, and sailors have their clothes and dishes washed in commercial-style facilities that are far more water efficient than home appliances.

If you check the TV threads, you will find an announcement that Thailand would import drinking water the NEXT DAY after the carrier thread.

Of course Thais are very sensitive about US military operating within their borders, that's why they have joint exercises every year. Now tell me that they don't speak Thai and all the Thai translators are busy working in Pattaya bars.

Name one Thai who would say "We were wrong, please bring the carrier back, we need it badly." they'd rather drown in their own sewerage.

Okay. lets pretend that the ship and crew use 0% of the water they produce. Thailand is just as capable bringing this water in themselves via the airport WHEN they needed it than relying on a foreign military to supply water hours outside Bangkok.. Thailand just a week ago announced they would be bringing in water from outside the country AGAIN in part for preparation for possible future needs. A month ago this was not high on their priority list enough to have yet another distraction (a foreign military involved) from what needed to be done then.

Japan (Tsunami) and the USA (Katrina) both refused aid during their huge disasters. This is really getting old as you just want to argue about something that clearly has proven to have been the right decision. The Thais have no regrets over this and the US obviously understands that aid needs to be what Thailand says it needs.

But of course you know better as to what should be done in a disaster of this scale but one thing you will never get is that unrequested, untimely or unneeded aid causes huge problems in a disaster and this is why countries with means refuse certain aid. Your last comment is very telling of where you are coming from and why this debate is pointless.

Edit: Why do you think they use salt water in the toilets? Could it be because fresh water is too valuable aboard the ship even though they can produce 400,000 gallons a day for the ship and 6,000 crew?

Also, you don't use Salt Water for cleaning the decks or any of the machinery. You need to wash off the salt water. You might also want to do some research as it is not unheard of for Carriers to have to go on Water Conservation Periods including when they were dispatched in the Persian Gulf. Also about 1/2 the water in storage on a Nuke Carrier is kept in case of an emergency to cool down the reactors. See: Navy Aircraft Carriers...

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

As far as I know they were sent but I could be wrong ...

IF they did not go it was because the US Government rejected the offer.

So you're saying that you don't know whether they went or not, but you do know why? Could you actually believe this? You're an expert on why certain things happened, but don't know whether in fect they actually happened or not? I'm scratching my head here. Is there a name for this condition?

Really, defending a position whether you are right or wrong is appropriate for a debating team, but not a forum. Give it up already. Get some facts and get back to us. Any reasonable opinion is always welcome, but this is childish.

Prove me wrong. If they were not sent then I can GUARANTEE you it was because the US declined the request as they did for many offers including doctors. But I already provided two links (you omitted from my post in your reply) which says they did go but those could be wrong too. But instead of babbling about how I could be wrong, why don't you prove me wrong. You mind also find some news accounts of the US declining other offers but I couldn't find one about the Thai Doctors.

Do you really think Thailand offered to send doctors and rice and then changed their mind? Maybe they couldn't get their frequent flyer miles so reneged????

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[Jingthing]

What do they want in return?

Americans have a character flaw. They want people to like them. That's it. Not here for the palm oil.

[SteeleJoe]

Edit: Why do you think they use salt water in the toilets? Could it be because fresh water is too valuable aboard the ship even though they can produce 400,000 gallons a day for the ship and 6,000 crew?

Or could it be because there's no sense in using what has to be made -- thus using up other ship resources -- when they are surrounded a virtually unlimited supply that needn't be?

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Water Use Statistics

Daily indoor per capita water use is 69.3 gallons. Here is how it breaks down:

Use

Gallons per Capita

Percentage of Total Daily Use

Showers

11.6

16.8%

Clothes Washers

15.0

21.7%

Dishwashers

1.0

1.4%

Toilets

18.5

26.7%

Baths

1.2

1.7%

Leaks

9.5

13.7%

Faucets

10.9

15.7%

Other Domestic Uses

1.6

2.2%

Source: Residential End Uses of Water (Denver, Colo.: Water Research Foundation, 1999).

[Nisa]

Edit: Why do you think they use salt water in the toilets? Could it be because fresh water is too valuable aboard the ship even though they can produce 400,000 gallons a day for the ship and 6,000 crew?

Or could it be because there's no sense in using what has to be made -- thus using up other ship resources -- when they are surrounded a virtually unlimited supply that needn't be?

Salt water is incredibly corrosive and leaves behind a residue that needs to be cleaned out often. The reason is clearly because of the need to conserve water. Even when people live on islands and use salt water in their toilets it is not out of convenience or to save money (neither is true), it is because they need to conserve fresh water. We can debate this all day long but the point is Thailand didn't need Foreign Military Aid for water and this is why they didn't request it when the aircraft carrier showed up uninvited offering assistance. We can debate water usage on a carrier all day but the fact remains Thailand didn't then and nor does it now need to turn to a Foreign Military Power for drinking water.

[Nisa]

To end the topic of how much water the carrier could provide Thailand .... http://blogs.wsj.com...ge-is-delivery/

The Carl Vinson is equipped with four distilling units which each produce 100,000 gallons of water daily, for a total of 400,000 gallons.

About three-quarters of that are used in the daily operations of the ship

– the rest is considered excess and can be used for relief work.

This Carrier which was specifically assigned and set-up to provide water could produce 100,000 to 150,000 gallons per day for Haiti. To put this in perspective, an Olympic swimming pool holds over 600,000 gallons of water.

In addition they had great problems delivering the water including an ongoing supply of adequate containers to transport. Awful lot of work to go through and be dependent on a Foreign Military when planes can land right in Bangkok, from close neighbors, with bottled water.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[Buchholz]

As I clearly stated, I have no idea

You have no idea, so you halved the figure that has no relevance, and that's close enough? Let's see, SHIPS flush toilets and wash down decks with salt water for obvious reasons, and sailors have their clothes and dishes washed in commercial-style facilities that are far more water efficient than home appliances.

If you check the TV threads, you will find an announcement that Thailand would import drinking water the NEXT DAY after the carrier thread.

Of course Thais are very sensitive about US military operating within their borders, that's why they have joint exercises every year. Now tell me that they don't speak Thai and all the Thai translators are busy working in Pattaya bars.

Name one Thai who would say "We were wrong, please bring the carrier back, we need it badly." they'd rather drown in their own sewerage.

Thanks for letting the landlubber know about life at sea. At the end of the day, out of a million and a half liters of potable drinking water capacity a day, the ship's crew usage is but a small portion.

Of course, the entire medical department onboard all five ships is never addressed as it's harder to address

with irrelevant suburbia statistics.

Nor is the substantial food generating capacity in the enormous galleys.

As for their presence in Thailand, it would be warmly welcomed, same as it is for the ship that is in Thailand.

The government messed up. It's simple, but it's time to move on beyond the missed opportunity. The only absurdity left is to deny that it's presence wouldn't have been beneficial or the help it could have provided wasn't important. Take it as a lesson learned and deal with things as they are now, without the help.

.

[OzMick]

As I clearly stated, I have no idea how water is used on the aircraft carrier and that is why I halved the average amount used of 123 gallons (which is a lower estimate). The point was they need to use a great deal of the water they produce on the ship. I also mentioned just a couple of the consequences and ramifications of having the US Armed forces operating in Thailand but there are many and the consequences at the time far outweighed the need. It was weeks after the ship came (uninvited) that the Thai Government announced it would import water in large part to possible future shortages. Everything that ship could offer (that is/was needed) can be got just as easily without having foreign military operating within and for Thailand.

By the way, the US National average for water use in the USA for ALL uses is183 gallons per day. Here are some numbers (again using lower estimates) of typical uses; flushing the toilet (new low flow toilets use 1.6 to 2 gallons per flush while older ones use 4 gallons), shower (2 gallons per minute new low flow, 5 gallons per minute old), brushing teeth, washing hands, dishes.... (new kitchen sink uses 2.2 gallons per minute), a new clothes washing machine uses 25 gallons while an old one uses 50 on average per wash. An outdoor hose uses 5 to 10 gallon per minutes and I mention this only because of the amount of cleaning that takes place on a carrier (small city) daily.

I will repeat, here we are almost a month later and there really has been no need to have involved them considering all the logistics and ramification their involvement would have entailed. Thailand is not without resources and is not a 3rd world country. There is nothing the carrier could have offered that could not easily be flown in and there is nothing stopping Thailand from requesting a carrier return if needed. People are inconvenienced right now but nobody is starving or dying of thirst. Before the need for a US aircraft carrier arrives, it only makes sense there would first be a need for the Thai military to be fully deployed. This is not a crisis where search and rescue teams are needed to pluck up tens of thousands of people.

I don't care what administration is in office, they would not have requested the assistance of the aircraft carrier .. especially at that time. And a request for them to leave all their water pumps, water and doctors on the pier with no other involvement or assistance would not have been accepted by the US.

You have no idea, so you halved the figure that has no relevance, and that's close enough? Let's see, SHIPS flush toilets and wash down decks with salt water for obvious reasons, and sailors have their clothes and dishes washed in commercial-style facilities that are far more water efficient than home appliances.

If you check the TV threads, you will find an announcement that Thailand would import drinking water the NEXT DAY after the carrier thread.

Of course Thais are very sensitive about US military operating within their borders, that's why they have joint exercises every year. Now tell me that they don't speak Thai and all the Thai translators are busy working in Pattaya bars.

Name one Thai who would say "We were wrong, please bring the carrier back, we need it badly." they'd rather drown in their own sewerage.

Okay. lets pretend that the ship and crew use 0% of the water they produce. Thailand is just as capable bringing this water in themselves via the airport WHEN they needed it than relying on a foreign military to supply water hours outside Bangkok.. Thailand just a week ago announced they would be bringing in water from outside the country AGAIN in part for preparation for possible future needs. A month ago this was not high on their priority list enough to have yet another distraction (a foreign military involved) from what needed to be done then.

Japan (Tsunami) and the USA (Katrina) both refused aid during their huge disasters. This is really getting old as you just want to argue about something that clearly has proven to have been the right decision. The Thais have no regrets over this and the US obviously understands that aid needs to be what Thailand says it needs.

But of course you know better as to what should be done in a disaster of this scale but one thing you will never get is that unrequested, untimely or unneeded aid causes huge problems in a disaster and this is why countries with means refuse certain aid. Your last comment is very telling of where you are coming from and why this debate is pointless.

Edit: Why do you think they use salt water in the toilets? Could it be because fresh water is too valuable aboard the ship even though they can produce 400,000 gallons a day for the ship and 6,000 crew?

Also, you don't use Salt Water for cleaning the decks or any of the machinery. You need to wash off the salt water. You might also want to do some research as it is not unheard of for Carriers to have to go on Water Conservation Periods including when they were dispatched in the Persian Gulf. Also about 1/2 the water in storage on a Nuke Carrier is kept in case of an emergency to cool down the reactors. See: Navy Aircraft Carriers...

Yes it's getting old - but that's all right you are tireless in your propagation of off subject mindless speculation. Thailand announced it would be importing drinking water the day after rejecting aid from the carrier, which had plenty and offered for free and delivered by their own helicopters, instead of landed at an airport surrounded by flood waters. They are still buying drinking water, which is expensive to transport. Why?

This was the right decision in your tiny mind which outperforms all others. Good -O. Your projection for crew water usage was total BS and proven as such, but you can't leave it alone.

The GW would not have forced unwanted aid on the country but would have stood offshore and supplied its resources on request. Unrequired crew could have enjoyed R&R in unflooded areas giving a much-needed boost to the economy. And if aircrew had to keep up their flight hours, and this was not wanted in Thai waters, in a matter of hours she could steam outside the territorial limit, launch, recover and return.

NB they use salt water because it is free and plentiful (just like the drinking water that they offered!). Strangely enough Navy decks and equipment are designed to a specification which allows regular contact with salt water. though the decks of nuke carriers don't frequently get waves breaking over them, I have seen a video of such happening in heavy weather.

[Jayman]

The average person in the US consumes 123 gallons (466 liters) per day. If the personel on the ship use 50% of the average person on land and there is no other need for this water then this would equal 369,000 gallons of water or leave about 30,000 extra gallons a day in an area where there is no flooding..

Who on this planet can possible consume 123 gallons of water a day?

[Nisa]

Yes it's getting old - but that's all right you are tireless in your propagation of off subject mindless speculation. Thailand announced it would be importing drinking water the day after rejecting aid from the carrier, which had plenty and offered for free and delivered by their own helicopters, instead of landed at an airport surrounded by flood waters. They are still buying drinking water, which is expensive to transport. Why?

Actually they did not announce it the next day. They announced it Oct. 25th. http://www.thaivisa....-ease-shortage/

BANGKOK, Oct 25 -- The Thai government on Tuesday approved a plan to import food and drinking water to ease current and anticipated shortages following the worst flood in the nation's history, according to Permanent-Secretary for Commerce Yanyong Phuangrach.

And as you can see they set up a system for distribution that didn't include needing to deal with coordinating with a Foreign Military and have Foreign Military flying helicopters over Thailand and interacting with Thai citizens all for what amounts to a 100,000 gallons of extra coming in. To give you an idea of what a small amount this is, in terms of water needed vs. repercussions to get water this way. The Metropolitan Waterworks Authority in Bangkok has the normal capacity to produce 1.4 Billions gallons a day of tap water for Bangkok. Although their production has been slightly reduced with the floods, they aredistributing free drinking water at their sites round the clock and just announced they are giving away 5kg water at Rattanathibet bridge in Nonthaburi.

Yes, many things are tough right now but it CLEARLY has not got anywhere near the point of having a Foreign Military presence operating in Bangkok and dealing with its citizens .

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[tlansford]

<br />

The US Navy initially sent an aircraft carrier but it left after American officials said that Thailand's powerful military did not request assistance.

<br /><br />The AFP is repeating its previous statements (with slight enhancements here) which were debunked by the American Ambassador already.<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

I missed the debunking.

Did the Thai government ask for help and the US refused to help. Or did the air craft carrier just come here look around and leave with out offering to help or did it in fact not come here at all?

The Thai govt asked for help. The US military came. Thai, US military and civilian experts determined what was needed at the time. That did not happen to include an aircraft carrier.

one video.

And another - post #28 on the thread

My link

BTW, as you'll see, RogerDee123's reply is incorrect. The Thai govt clearly never refused US assistance.

[Nisa]

The average person in the US consumes 123 gallons (466 liters) per day. If the personel on the ship use 50% of the average person on land and there is no other need for this water then this would equal 369,000 gallons of water or leave about 30,000 extra gallons a day in an area where there is no flooding..

Who on this planet can possible consume 123 gallons of water a day?

I believe links were already provided but ...

Average 183 = http://www.ci.oswego.or.us/wtp/Percapitadailyusage.htm

Average Indoor Use 69 = http://www.drinktap.org/consumerdnn/Home/WaterInformation/Conservation/WaterUseStatistics/tabid/85/Default.aspx

Average 123 = http://www.enotes.com/science/q-and-a/how-much-water-does-an-average-person-use-each-day-288217

The point was that we use a lot more water than most of us think in our daily life be it at home or on a ship but this point was lost on many.

Even during this crisis, it is not just about drinking water but also things like hygiene and cooking too. Though I still scratch my head as to why everybody stocked up on those cups of noodles that not only require water but also require electric to boil.

[tlansford]

The US Navy initially sent an aircraft carrier but it left after American officials said that Thailand's powerful military did not request assistance.

The AFP is repeating its previous statements (with slight enhancements here) which were debunked by the American Ambassador already.

Actually it was denied by the Ambassador -- quite different from being debunked (proven false); it has not been debunked.

Not denied. Debunked. She describes in detail what took place. Her statements were very clear. The carrier did leave, but not for the reason propagated by the AFP.

Now, if you chose to not believe the Ambassador, but rather the AFP, ... up to you...

[Nisa]

The Thai govt asked for help. The US military came. Thai, US military and civilian experts determined what was needed at the time. That did not happen to include an aircraft carrier.

one video.

And another - post #28 on the thread

My link

BTW, as you'll see, RogerDee123's reply is incorrect. The Thai govt clearly never refused US assistance.

Thanks for this. So, it turns out the US did provide supplies and assistance including pumps, boats, satellite images and helicopters. It also appears the US experts were in completely agreement with what Thailand needed from them. What they didn't request, need or take was an aircraft carrier.

Hopefully this would end the highly negative posts on this subject but there are just some people who will condemn Thailand and the US at every possible juncture. Those that need to find a cloud in every silver lining and do all they can to spread their false views and information to others. Again, I truly appreciate you taking the time to find and post this but I'm sure some will be calling it lies and a conspiracy.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[inquisitive]

Edit: Why do you think they use salt water in the toilets? Could it be because fresh water is too valuable aboard the ship even though they can produce 400,000 gallons a day for the ship and 6,000 crew?

Or could it be because there's no sense in using what has to be made -- thus using up other ship resources -- when they are surrounded a virtually unlimited supply that needn't be?

Salt water is incredibly corrosive and leaves behind a residue that needs to be cleaned out often. The reason is clearly because of the need to conserve water. Even when people live on islands and use salt water in their toilets it is not out of convenience or to save money (neither is true), it is because they need to conserve fresh water. We can debate this all day long but the point is Thailand didn't need Foreign Military Aid for water and this is why they didn't request it when the aircraft carrier showed up uninvited offering assistance. We can debate water usage on a carrier all day but the fact remains Thailand didn't then and nor does it now need to turn to a Foreign Military Power for drinking water.

We get it already. You don't think Thailand should accept any assistance if it is possible for Thailand to somehow get by without it, even if it means that Thai citizens must die by the hundreds. We get it.

But YOU don't seem to even understand what you are writing. My argument with you has nothing to do with whether a sailor washes his own clothes, or poops into a toilet that uses salt water. It is not whether Thailand is capable of having living, breathing citizens left at the end of this disaster. It is only a question of the cost in human lives and suffering. You apparantly feel that so long as it is other Thais suffering and dying and not you, then the cost is worth being able to stand up and proclaim that you didn't need any help.

Unfortunately, this desire flies in the face of some of your own statements. You clearly believe that Thailand is right to accept aid (and yes, water) from some countries and not others. You haven't been clear at all why water from say, Malaysia is aceptable to you while water from say, the USA is not. It appears to this reader that the only real distinction is that you made a stand in your first posts and you don't want to appear to be giving in. The problem is that it is geting to be more and more of a stretch for you. You say the United States is a "Foreign Militery Power" [your capitalizations] but you evidently don't think other countries also have a military. Just look at your list of acceptable donors, and see if you can find a single country there that does not have a military. Silly boy, every gosh darn one of those countries is a "Foreign Military Power."

And have you noticed how you changed the humanitarian aid the aircraft carrier offered to "Foreign Military Aid"? [again your caps] What were they offering? To fight off the enemies of Thailand? Guns and ammunition? Or perhaps they were going to supply water exclusively to the Thai military. I guess that could be considered military aid, but giving water to the Thai government to distribute to its citizens would hardly qualify as military aid, with or without capital letters.

You can relax. Perhaps you think of Thailand as a third world country, perhaps you think that Thailand must prove itself in front of the world, but I for one don't agree. I believe that the Thai government made a mistake in passing up the offer of help - a decision that has dire potential consequences for its people - but I believe it made that decision to protect this present government's fast eroding political power. If Miss Y accepted the aid, it most likely would have been coordinated by the same people that coordinate other coperations between the US Navy and Thailand, which is to say the Thai military. And if the Thai military was seen to be doing a better job than Miss Y and her handpicked team, then it would have corrosive effect on her image. Nothing less, and nothing more. The military welcomed the aid, and the Miss Y government did not.

Now if you actually think otherwise, then perhaps you can state directly that you felt that

a) more assistance earlier on would not have helped the Thai people in any way; or

you don't care that the Thai people would have been helped, the cost to prestige is more important than Thai lives so long as it's not yours; or even

c) the recipients of life-sustaining help - such as bottles of clean water - actually care where the water or other assistance came from. And then perhaps you could explain why you think they would actually prefer to suffer and die rather than accept help.

I'd really like to read how you address these issues much more than your calculations of how much water is used in an American toilet flush, or what you know to be the reasons behind activities that you openly admit you know so little about that you can't even tell whether they actually happened.

You're proud. We get that. But that isn't excuse for being stupid. That isn't excuse for hurting others who desperately need help. And it isn't even sufficient excuse for repeating your mistakes over and over again rather than admit that you were wrong in the first place. And everyone associated with the relief effort should get their priorities clear before they act out of a reflexive personal self-protective instinct.

[erobando]

Why are people still posting about the big US boat? It's been like 3 weeks since that "story" came out. The floodwater wouldn't be deep enough for it to float in anyway.

Everyone is better off it goes back to launching missiles at Kabul or Tripoli or wherever.

[sirchai]

Clinton offers flood help to Thailand

HONOLULU, November 11, 2011 (AFP) - Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday that she would offer US assistance to flood-hit Thailand on a visit next week but wanted to see what the kingdom's leaders needed.

.

What Thailand needs is a new PM and new competent government

Agreed. What about the former PM? A real new government including brainy guys, a new staff for the MOE and so on.......

But Thaksin will be back next month, so forget about it........

[TheWalkingMan]

Japan (Tsunami) and the USA (Katrina) both refused aid during their huge disasters.

Incorrect... Japan did accept help from the US for the Tsunami. At least 110 tonnes of relief goods were delivered by the US Navy. Remember the US has bases in Japan and the locals were grateful for the assistance.

The USA did accept aid for Katrina.

Back in 1985 with the JAL crash Japan did refuse help of the US Military. US was prepared to send a Huey chopper on to the site with rescue teams and to guide the Japanese SDF to the site. The offer was rejected by the Japanese government. The next day the Japanese SDF reached the site and found that some people died overnight from exposure.

I include the blurb about the incident in Japan to highlight that there are times that a government would rather do things themselves to the detriment of disaster victims.

Maybe it is a pride thing, where it is better for some to die rather than all to see an outside government saving people. That saving of people could be viewed as the government not being able to take care of its own people.

[lujanit]

I hope Clinton is smart enough not to offer AID in the form of cash! We all know what will happen to that.

[tlansford]

The Thai govt asked for help. The US military came. Thai, US military and civilian experts determined what was needed at the time. That did not happen to include an aircraft carrier.

one video.

And another - post #28 on the thread

My link

BTW, as you'll see, RogerDee123's reply is incorrect. The Thai govt clearly never refused US assistance.

Thanks for this. So, it turns out the US did provide supplies and assistance including pumps, boats, satellite images and helicopters. It also appears the US experts were in completely agreement with what Thailand needed from them. What they didn't request, need or take was an aircraft carrier.

Hopefully this would end the highly negative posts on this subject but there are just some people who will condemn Thailand and the US at every possible juncture. Those that need to find a cloud in every silver lining and do all they can to spread their false views and information to others. Again, I truly appreciate you taking the time to find and post this but I'm sure some will be calling it lies and a conspiracy.

No sweat. Thailand and the US have a long history since WWII - Anything besides a normal level of support and cooperation between the 2 countries would have been a very unlikely scenario.

[sirchai]

The average person in the US consumes 123 gallons (466 liters) per day. If the personel on the ship use 50% of the average person on land and there is no other need for this water then this would equal 369,000 gallons of water or leave about 30,000 extra gallons a day in an area where there is no flooding..

Who on this planet can possible consume 123 gallons of water a day?

I believe links were already provided but ...

Average 183 = http://www.ci.oswego...adailyusage.htm

Average Indoor Use 69 = http://www.drinktap....85/Default.aspx

Average 123 = http://www.enotes.co...each-day-288217

The point was that we use a lot more water than most of us think in our daily life be it at home or on a ship but this point was lost on many.

Even during this crisis, it is not just about drinking water but also things like hygiene and cooking too. Though I still scratch my head as to why everybody stocked up on those cups of noodles that not only require water but also require electric to boil.

Though I still scratch my head as to why everybody stocked up on those cups of noodles that not only require water but also require electric to boil.

I do scratch my head when I read posts like yours.

[rogerdee123]

<br />

The US Navy initially sent an aircraft carrier but it left after American officials said that Thailand's powerful military did not request assistance.

<br /><br />The AFP is repeating its previous statements (with slight enhancements here) which were debunked by the American Ambassador already.<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

I missed the debunking.

Did the Thai government ask for help and the US refused to help. Or did the air craft carrier just come here look around and leave with out offering to help or did it in fact not come here at all?

The Thai govt asked for help. The US military came. Thai, US military and civilian experts determined what was needed at the time. That did not happen to include an aircraft carrier.

one video.

And another - post #28 on the thread

My link

BTW, as you'll see, RogerDee123's reply is incorrect. The Thai govt clearly never refused US assistance.

Now now tlansford ... naughty naughty boy! ..... don't go putting words in my mouth again. I did not say "refused".

[ianguygil]

I am glad as an American we are going to help. I am sure there will be the usual American bashing that accompanies every thread of this nature but I don't see anyone else spending the kind of cash the US spends on aid around the world.

I am also am American and while I welcome the visit of Mrs Clinton, we should never deceive ourselves that we are more generous in terms of aid to developing countries than others. We definitely have military and logistical capabilities that others can not match. But as a percentage of GDP our foreign aid is sorely lacking

I just found this site with a quick search, and I think that this page gives some perspective on this (I have really no idea about the rest of the site I have never seen it before).....

http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html

This is in no way US bashing. I won't get into any of the political issues about aid to Israel, Egypt and Pakistan. Let's just hope that the US can help the Thai government and the Thai people to make life better as so many are suffering in the flooding right now. We could certainly use the help from a friend.

[Nisa]

You don't think Thailand should accept any assistance if it is possible for Thailand to somehow get by without it, even if it means that Thai citizens must die by the hundreds. <SNIP>

What you don't seem to get is taking assistance that one doesn't need in a crisis it can greatly hurt people and the relief efforts. As mentioned numerous times on this thread, countries often decline assistance during a catastrophe for this reason.

But most of what you are saying would be pointless to respond to as it is clear you are imagining I said or even implied things I didn't. I am not sure what your motivation is to want to "argue" about such a thing especially now that the facts are in that Thailand did take aid that was helpful from the US and it was the aid that BOTH the US and Thailand believed what was needed.

Bottom line is Thailand has been accepting aid from countless sources but clearly what they did not need nor did they request is a Foreign Military Nuclear Aircraft Carrier despite how much you believe they should have one thrown in the mix.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[Lifer]

What a crock of posts on this topic all trying to outdo each other, or to demonstrate their superior intelligence. BTW. There are many other posts the moderators have missed deleting in the above 4 pages.

It is strange that so many young posters whose countries are and were allies in the major world wars, and fought side by side for freedom, are bashing each other over a news clip. None of the above solves anything and sure doesn't help the poor Thai people caught in this disaster.

[cdnvic]

Japan (Tsunami) and the USA (Katrina) both refused aid during their huge disasters

Facts are better than guesses.......

Mexican Army delivering aid to Katrina victims.

Canadian Navy ships loading up aid supplies to deliver.

French & British aid arrives

According to the European Commission, one week after the disaster, on September 4, 2005, the United States officially asked the European Union for emergency help, asking for blankets, emergency medical kits, water and 500,000 food rations for victims. Help proposed by EU member states was coordinated through their crisis center. The British presidency of the EU functioned as contact with the USA.

http://en.wikipedia....rricane_Katrina

[SteeleJoe]

The US Navy initially sent an aircraft carrier but it left after American officials said that Thailand's powerful military did not request assistance.

The AFP is repeating its previous statements (with slight enhancements here) which were debunked by the American Ambassador already.

Actually it was denied by the Ambassador -- quite different from being debunked (proven false); it has not been debunked.

Not denied. Debunked. She describes in detail what took place. Her statements were very clear. The carrier did leave, but not for the reason propagated by the AFP.

Now, if you chose to not believe the Ambassador, but rather the AFP, ... up to you...

Denied. Not debunked. She did not disprove anything.

Yes, up to me. I don't claim her denial is false but I certainly don't assume it's true. I see far more reason for an ambassador to lie about such a thing (indeed I feel it would probably be the correct thing to do) than I do for journalists -- though they may be in error.

See, unlike yourself (and others on this board and even on this thread), I'm not a bigot and am capable of some attempt at objectivity regarding the Thai government. So I don't choose to believe either of them as I don't have sufficient facts and I certainly don't accept something just because it was told to me by someone in authority (and who could easily have a vested interest in practicing deception -- indeed a duty that may require it) or because it conforms to my biases (indeed I tend to give those extra scrutiny).