Chiang Mai City - Bar, Restaurant And Massage Businesses

[Beetlejuice]

A few days ago I was in the town with some friends during one evening and we noticed that the area was dead.

We first went for a meal and some drinks. A couple of friends decided to go for a massage and were offered much more than just a massage. Much more in fact. And one of the guy's did go for it, but that is irrelevant to the theme of this thread. The staff told the guy's that they were their first customers of the day and this was late evening. The point being is that these establishments seem desperate and seeking other ways to gain an income.

Business at bars, massage parlours and restaurants seem to be well down.

My guess is that due to the flooding in Bangkok, many tourists are not holidaying in Thailand this year.

So my questions are: has the high tourist season happened this year in Chiang Mai and can any of the business owners claim that are doing better these days than 5 to 10 years ago?

The reason I ask is because a close friend is considering running a bar in Chiang Mai, although I have advised him against it.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Beetlejuice

[Loaded]

There are far too many bars, massage parlours and restaurants around the Tha Pae gate area and only a few seem to work. Most are just dreams that suck in the owners money before shooting him out broke after a few years. Places like Mad Dog, Dukes, Mikes, UN Irish Pub, Chiang Mai Saloon and No. 1 bar have been around for many years because the owners have a good understanding of who their customers are and what they want. I find many other farang owners like to wear the label 'bar owner' to compliment the gold chains, tattoos and young dark rented 'wife'. It seems they feel they have hit the big time owning a bar along Loi Kroi staffed by prostitutes. Those businesses rarely ever turn a profit.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Loaded

[Ulysses G.]

Another bar? My advice to your friend is not to go into business here unless he can provide a unique product that is very difficult to copy because of superior quality or the expense of the equipment to produce it.

There are lots and lots and lots of hobby businesses in Chiang Mai run by people with other incomes who are willing to make little profit or even lose money. If he is not in this situation, he should be very, very careful.

One of the best businesses for foreigners who have a lot of expertise in food preparation is a restaurant. If their food is really excellent, it is hard to copy. Marcos, the Dukes and Butter is Better are all places that have beaten the odds and make a good profit because their owners know what they are doing.

However, they still have the problem that there are lots of Thai places selling a meal for less than 30 baht and hundreds of Western places selling food for very little profit that they will be unfavorably compared to - even if their food is much better. If a good restaurant's prices are much more than the places that are not making any money they will be criticized for being "too expensive".

When their food is really superior to other restaurants, they will still thrive, but not to the point that they would somewhere where rents are much more expensive (which would keep large numbers of hobby restaurants from attracting customers who do not know any better or are indifferent to good food and happy to eat swill if it is cheap enough).

The world economy sucks, the floods have scared many foreigners off from coming here - especially the ones that spend money freely. IMO, anyone who starts a business here now, better have a lot of expertise, a really good product and a lot of money to get things going. You can still make decent money in Chaing Mai, but it will not be easy.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Beetlejuice]

Another bar? My advice to your friend is not to go into business here unless he can provide a unique product that is very difficult to copy because of superior quality or the expense of the equipment to produce it.

There are lots and lots and lots of hobby businesses in Chiang Mai run by people with other incomes who are willing to make little profit or even lose money. If he is not in this situation, he should be very, very careful.

One of the best businesses for foreigners who have a lot of expertise in food preparation is a restaurant. If their food is really excellent, it is hard to copy. Marcos, the Dukes and Butter is Better are all places that have beaten the odds and make a good profit because their owners know what they are doing.

However, they still have the problem that there are lots of Thai places selling a meal for less than 30 baht and hundreds of Western places selling food for very little profit that they will be unfavorably compared to - even if their food is much better. If a good restaurant's prices are much more than the places that are not making any money they will be criticized for being "too expensive".

When their food is really superior to other restaurants, they will still thrive, but not to the point that they would somewhere where rents are much more expensive (which would keep large numbers of hobby restaurants from attracting customers who do not know any better or are indifferent to good food and happy to eat swill if it is cheap enough).

The world economy sucks, the floods have scared many foreigners off from coming here - especially the ones that spend money freely. IMO, anyone who starts a business here now, better have a lot of expertise, a really good product and a lot of money to get things going. You can still make decent money in Chaing Mai, but it will not be easy.

What you say is correct of course, but however good a business is run and no matter how much money an entrepreneur piles into it, none of this is of any use if the punters are not there.

To be frank, I cannot see any future for the tourist industry in Chiang Mai for several reasons and I can foresee Chiang Mai losing it`s status as a tourist destination completely.

This is what I am trying to drum into the head of my stupid friend, who believes that he is going to make his fortune in Chiang mai.

[hellodolly]

Well there is no denying it the tourist industry has taken a big hit this year.

How ever the one thing that is running through my mind is could it be that the type of tourist is changing. Chiang Mai is loosing it's appeal to the sex pats. Pattaya is drawing that kind of tourist. I walk around a lot and I still see lots of foreigners here. I don't believe that Chiang Mai lost that many tourists because of the floods in Bangkok. I have also noticed there seems to me to be a lot more women travelers. Lots of groups of two or three women.

Another reason that it might seem like tourism is down is you seem to be basing it on customers in bars and restaurants. Could be there is way to many of them to begin with.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

To be frank, I cannot see any future for the tourist industry in Chiang Mai for several reasons and I can foresee Chiang Mai losing it`s status as a tourist destination completely.

If true then that would be the best news I heard all day. Because the alternative is getting the Pattaya crowd in. (Russians, middle easterners, etc.)

[asanee]

1.Well there is no denying it the tourist industry has taken a big hit this year.

2.Now ever the one thing that is running through my mind is could it be that the type of tourist is changing. Chiang Mai is loosing it's appeal to the sex pats.

3.Another reason that it might seem like tourism is down is you seem to be basing it on customers in bars and restaurants. Could be there is way to many of them to begin with.

Well thought out. Rare on the usually whining and complaining response of bisnisowners.

@1. NO-only the last month or so-tourism was way up till half of oct.

@2.right-now (yes-me escaping BKK floods too-not been to here CMai since some 8-9 yrs) struck me was the growth of ladybars on Loy Kroh-let them all pack that up and bind up and throw over the Burma border

@3-even more right-say 2x as many tourists-but 4x as many places for sleep, eat etc- misleading impression.

WHat has also struck me is that the former ChMai tipical bisnis of trekking and baking homemade bread/wholewheat etc seems to have gone down enromously since I remember.

But nice stay here-friendly nice people, slow pace of living, low prices, very nice wheather-maybe I even move permanently.

[maipompui]

Hello to all in beautiful Chiangmai...As a senior non sexpat, non bar scene guy i am interested in massage with all inclusions now and again .

Any info on where your friend got his special massage would be much appreciated to be honest.

If you dont want to post that would you please PM me ....thanks for any info..:jap:

[LarryBird]

Niemenheman is jam packed everyday.. I don't see a decrease there, that's for sure.

[doji]

.... the type of tourist is changing. Chiang Mai is loosing it's appeal to the sex pats.

Glad to hear that ......

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Hello to all in beautiful Chiangmai...As a senior non sexpat, non bar scene guy i am interested in massage with all inclusions now and again .

Any info on where your friend got his special massage would be much appreciated to be honest.

Wait.. non-sexpat, but still interested in special massages? That means you're not quite at abstinence-pat level.

I cannot answer your question because that would break forum rules, but really if you just ask anywhere in the downtown tourist area, specifically along Kotchasarn, Loy Kroh and sois off these, then all you need to do is ask and they will at the very least be able to point you in the right direction.

[maipompui]

Hello to all in beautiful Chiangmai...As a senior non sexpat, non bar scene guy i am interested in massage with all inclusions now and again .

Any info on where your friend got his special massage would be much appreciated to be honest.

Wait.. non-sexpat, but still interested in special massages? That means you're not quite at abstinence-pat level.

I cannot answer your question because that would break forum rules, but really if you just ask anywhere in the downtown tourist area, specifically along Kotchasarn, Loy Kroh and sois off these, then all you need to do is ask and they will at the very least be able to point you in the right direction.

Thanks .i'll take a look around.

[Thailand]

Perhaps those looking for tourists are actually missing them?

After all don't most of the farang run bars etc in the "tourist areas" cater for the stand out westerner both local and the tourist variety?

There appears to be tourists coming from Taiwan, Korea Japan etc ie Asia, don't they all look the same to the western eye and easily confused with the locals?

A Korean golfing partner runs a massage parlour catering exclusively to Koreans/Korean golfers, he says he is they have more than 50 massages a day in the low season and up to 150 a day in the high season,I have no reason to disbelieve him and it sounds quite lucrative.No doubt there are similar ventures being run by Japanese,Taiwanese, Chinese etc.

Domestic tourism is being encouraged with the likes of Royal Flora but does not bring in the people that frequent the bars,so good for local Thai business but not so good for western tourist orientated catering establishments.

This is a predominately farang forum and it is very easy to become blinkered and miss what is happening under your nose.

Just my 2 bahts worth!

[hyperdimension]

There appears to be tourists coming from Taiwan, Korea Japan etc ie Asia, don't they all look the same to the western eye and easily confused with the locals?

China should have also been especially mentioned in that list, with a population of over 1.3B people, a middle class that continues to grow and an economy that isn't in as dire a state as those of USA and Europe. I saw plenty of mainland Chinese tourists in Hong Kong a couple of months ago; Thailand is a much cheaper alternative for the Chinese to travel to. They may not be easily spotted as there are many Chinese-Thais who live in Thailand.

Edited November 15, 2011 by hyperdimension

[AndersSN]

A close friend of mine runs a bar aimed at turists in CM and high season is a blast this year, his words not mine...

I guess turning a very healthy profit is what's giving him that big smile on his face.

[Thailand]

There appears to be tourists coming from Taiwan, Korea Japan etc ie Asia, don't they all look the same to the western eye and easily confused with the locals?

China should have also been especially mentioned in that list, with a population of over 1.3B people, a middle class that continues to grow and an economy that isn't in as dire a state as those of USA and Europe. I saw plenty of mainland Chinese tourists in Hong Kong a couple of months ago; Thailand is a much cheaper alternative for the Chinese to travel to. They may not be easily spotted as there are many Chinese-Thais who live in Thailand.

Was up in Chiang Saen/Mai Sai area just a few weeks ago and it was the number of Mandarin speakers that stood out as something relatively new so I am guessing they are mainland Chinese,we were wondering if they are coming in down the Mekong on the cruise barges-anybody know?

Also I guess they are driving down after talking to a guy from Kunming (8-9 hours to Chiang Mai he said) who was exhibiting a few Chinese products at a recent airport plaza expo.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Thailand

[bitewhentested]

iv lived here for 6 years and the high season as i remember it when i first got here is a thing of the past due to the problems thailand has had in the past five years and also

other country's promoting them self more and better than thailand does i think thailand is far more interested in exporting its goods than attracting tourists

rice fruit cars clothing does not get drunk lose there past port or try to smuggle drugs in and out of the country apparently the tourist trade makes up 8 percent of thailands gdp

if the can replace that with something els they will

or they would but more effort in to it than the amazing thailand adverts that you see from time to time malaysia is becoming a replacement for thailand and if burma

ever gets more stable watch out thailand as they will take you out of the game completely untouched beaches all the culture you have here and so on

[AndersSN]

Another bar? My advice to your friend is not to go into business here unless he can provide a unique product that is very difficult to copy because of superior quality or the expense of the equipment to produce it.

There are lots and lots and lots of hobby businesses in Chiang Mai run by people with other incomes who are willing to make little profit or even lose money. If he is not in this situation, he should be very, very careful.

One of the best businesses for foreigners who have a lot of expertise in food preparation is a restaurant. If their food is really excellent, it is hard to copy. Marcos, the Dukes and Butter is Better are all places that have beaten the odds and make a good profit because their owners know what they are doing.

However, they still have the problem that there are lots of Thai places selling a meal for less than 30 baht and hundreds of Western places selling food for very little profit that they will be unfavorably compared to - even if their food is much better. If a good restaurant's prices are much more than the places that are not making any money they will be criticized for being "too expensive".

When their food is really superior to other restaurants, they will still thrive, but not to the point that they would somewhere where rents are much more expensive (which would keep large numbers of hobby restaurants from attracting customers who do not know any better or are indifferent to good food and happy to eat swill if it is cheap enough).

The world economy sucks, the floods have scared many foreigners off from coming here - especially the ones that spend money freely. IMO, anyone who starts a business here now, better have a lot of expertise, a really good product and a lot of money to get things going. You can still make decent money in Chaing Mai, but it will not be easy.

Or buy an existing business with a proven track record, so you are (more) certain of making money from the get go.

[elektrified]

There appears to be tourists coming from Taiwan, Korea Japan etc ie Asia, don't they all look the same to the western eye and easily confused with the locals?

China should have also been especially mentioned in that list, with a population of over 1.3B people, a middle class that continues to grow and an economy that isn't in as dire a state as those of USA and Europe. I saw plenty of mainland Chinese tourists in Hong Kong a couple of months ago; Thailand is a much cheaper alternative for the Chinese to travel to. They may not be easily spotted as there are many Chinese-Thais who live in Thailand.

My observation is that there are more Chinese tourists than Koreans or Japanese here now. There are more Chinese-run businesses too. There are also a large number of Chinese ex-pats here. I met a few of them at that fair at the Royal Flora Garden about a year ago. Some of them are here as reps for their Chinese companies. Sometimes the Thais can't even tell them apart. It's only when they speak to them in Thai and get that blank stare that they know.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Often group tours or couples though. Not people who visit pubs (other than those aimed at their ethnicity) and make a party.

Then again, you could also argue that a lot of the 'Farang' pubs just cater to Farangs just the same.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This is what I am trying to drum into the head of my stupid friend, who believes that he is going to make his fortune in Chiang mai.

If your friend remains serious about giving it a go, then he could do worse than sending a PM to AndersSN , then spend some time at his place to see the amount of traffic the place gets. But.. so often a new owner will make too many changes.. focus on things like interior decoration, forcing some a music agenda on people, offering new fancy drinks and cocktails or even food and other side shows. The main thing to get spot on is HR. He can f(*$ up everything else, but NOT how staff feels about working at a place. Do that and the magic is gone.

[scorpio]

Another bar? My advice to your friend is not to go into business here unless he can provide a unique product that is very difficult to copy because of superior quality or the expense of the equipment to produce it.

There are lots and lots and lots of hobby businesses in Chiang Mai run by people with other incomes who are willing to make little profit or even lose money. If he is not in this situation, he should be very, very careful.

One of the best businesses for foreigners who have a lot of expertise in food preparation is a restaurant. If their food is really excellent, it is hard to copy. Marcos, the Dukes and Butter is Better are all places that have beaten the odds and make a good profit because their owners know what they are doing.

However, they still have the problem that there are lots of Thai places selling a meal for less than 30 baht and hundreds of Western places selling food for very little profit that they will be unfavorably compared to - even if their food is much better. If a good restaurant's prices are much more than the places that are not making any money they will be criticized for being "too expensive".

When their food is really superior to other restaurants, they will still thrive, but not to the point that they would somewhere where rents are much more expensive (which would keep large numbers of hobby restaurants from attracting customers who do not know any better or are indifferent to good food and happy to eat swill if it is cheap enough).

The world economy sucks, the floods have scared many foreigners off from coming here - especially the ones that spend money freely. IMO, anyone who starts a business here now, better have a lot of expertise, a really good product and a lot of money to get things going. You can still make decent money in Chaing Mai, but it will not be easy.

What you say is correct of course, but however good a business is run and no matter how much money an entrepreneur piles into it, none of this is of any use if the punters are not there.

To be frank, I cannot see any future for the tourist industry in Chiang Mai for several reasons and I can foresee Chiang Mai losing it`s status as a tourist destination completely.

This is what I am trying to drum into the head of my stupid friend, who believes that he is going to make his fortune in Chiang mai.

"my stupid friend " wow with friends like you , who needs enemies .